Can any person make it to heaven without believing in the Lord Jesus Christ?

-- John Williams (rjswilson@netzero.net), December 17, 2003

Answers

Answer:It depends! Ask the same question before the Vatican Council II. Answer:"extra ecclesiam nulla salus"That is: "there is no salvation outside the Church".And in the Athanasian Creed which goes back to the early Church, we find: "Whosoever wishes to be saved must, above all, keep the Catholic faith; for unless a person keeps this faith whole and entire he will undoubtedly be lost forever."

But ask that very same question after Vatican Council II. Answer: well, it depends on the "MEGA-TEOLOGIAN" OR "MEGA-EXPERT" You ask. The Council, in paragraphs fourteen to eighteen of "Lumen Gentium" (the Constitution in the Church), still affirms the doctrine that outside the Church there is no salvation, contrary to what many of the popularizers of the Council say.For Instance Cardinal Walter Kasper, based in the Vatican, defied the defined dogma that "outside the Church there is no salvation" when he said, "...today we no longer understand ecumenism in the sense of a return, by which the others would ‘be converted’ and return to being ‘Catholics’. This was expressly abandoned at Vatican II." Adisti, Feb. 26, 2001.

I have more to examples but that is enough by the moment

Thanks and God bless You all!

In Cordibus Jesu Et Mariae

A Friend

-- A friend (never@mind.info), December 18, 2003.

With God all things are possible.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 18, 2003.

Only in a unique situation, and if the soul makes it to heaven, that will be because Christ saved him/her. There is no other salvation but in Jesus.

The unique situation is what the Church terms invincible ignorance. That means innocence of the Gospel of Jesus Christ; although with faith in a Supreme Being. Added to this situation is the strict requirement that this soul have perfect contrition for his sins, and appeals for mercy from the Supreme Being. Of that reality, only God Himself would be aware.

We know the Catholic Church decrees theological truth by the power of the Holy Spirit. She has taught us of that very hypothetical concept without concrete proof from any other source except the revelations of Almighty God. One such revelation is the plain scriptural statement that God desires for ALL men to be saved. What God supposes is possible, no man can call impossible. Since none can be saved except by the blood of Jesus Christ (redemption), it follows that the unique case is Christian redemption! But this remains totally hypothetical; it may in fact occur only once in scores of millions of souls. (IF it is so. No one but God can say.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 18, 2003.

No one can be saved but through Christ. OTOH, there is the possibility that someone who has never *heard* of Christ is saved through the Grace of God, but we don't know.

OTOH, we don't know if WE will be saved either, that ALSO depends on the Grace of God. So I would say most possibly, but for sure someone who knew Christ and REJECTED Him wouldn't be saved.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 18, 2003.

No-one can be saved except through Christ. The problem is, some Christian groups seem to think they can dictate just how Jesus can and cannot save people, and just whom He can and cannot save. His death on the cross was sufficient to save every human being who ever lived and ever will live. However, not all men are saved. Some reject salvation outright. As for the rest - pagans, agnostics, atheists, those who have never heard of Christ, those who have heard but have not found the grace to accept, those who think they are following Christ through manmade religions, those who have left His Church, those who claim to be in His Church but don't attend Mass - it is God's call as to who is saved and who is not. We have no way of knowing.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 18, 2003.

That's a good question, and is not nearly as clear as other people have tried to make it. The Bible tells us in many places that we can be saved by faith alone, but in many other places that it is our actions that can lead to salvation.

In favor of actions: Ps 62:12, Jer 17:10, Mt 12:37, Mt 16:27, Mt 19:17, Lk 10:26-28, Jn 5:29, Rom 2:6, 13, 2 Cor 5:10, 2 Cor 11:15, Jas 2:14, Jas 2:17, Jas 2:21-25, and 1 Pet 1:17.

In favor of belief: Mk 16:16, Jn 3:18, 36, Acts 16:30-31, Rom 1:16- 17, Rom 3:20, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:2, Rom 4:13, Rom 5:1, Gal 2:16, Gal 3:11-12, Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5.

-- the other anti bush (dbrome@princeton.edu), December 19, 2003.

Correction - the Bible never says we can be saved by faith "alone". However, as you said, there are multiple passages emphasizing the need for faith, and multiple passages emphasizing the need for works. Which should lead any person honestly seeking the truth to recognize that faith and works are of equal importance, and that lack of either one will result in forfeit of salvation. Which is exactly what His Church teaches, and has taught since Apostolic times. The idea that our works are not essential to our salvation is a modern tradition of men, not a Christian truth.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 19, 2003.

So what's the verdict on Ghandi?

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), December 22, 2003.

He isn't on trial. He is presently where God wants him.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 22, 2003.

If you admire someone (GANDHI), can't you even spell his name correctly? No, not if you are a liberal.

-- (Mohandas@Karamchand.com), December 23, 2003.

Because we all know that only conservatives pay attention to their spelling. Except of course for the countless rednecks in our nations rural regions, and our very own President Bush, who was fiercely anti-intellectual in college, despite the fact that he was attending Yale for crying out loud.

Anyway, I'm sure that if the only exposure to Jesus someone had was from witnessing so-called Christians and their self-righteous hypocrisy (ex: Rush Limbaugh, Ronald Reagan, and anyone who believes these two are truly good people) , they would not go to hell for "rejecting Christ."

Unless you mean accepting the ways of Jesus Christ, since the ways of Jesus were purely good. In that case one who rejected these ways would be doomed no matter what culture they lived in.

-- Woodrow (woodrow432@yahoo.com), December 25, 2003.

Because we all know that only conservatives pay attention to their spelling.
Don't be stupid. Everyone makes spelling mistakes. The one above was singled out because the guy couldn't even spell my last name, despite being a fan of mine (Mohandas Karamchand "Mahatma" Gandhi).

Woody, this is a CATHOLIC forum. If you don't like it here, get out. You are doing nothing good for anyone here. No one has any use for your errors -- spelling or otherwise.

Merry CHRIST-MASS, Woody.

-- (Mohandas@Karamchand.com), December 25, 2003.

Okay. The Bible states that you must come as a child to enter into heaven. You have to posess the simplest knowledge of Christ - He is your lord and saviour, he created you, and died for your sins so that you and he may be together for eternity. Hence the sinners prayer - If said with a meaningful heart then God hears you and sees that you truly believe in him. A relationship (NOTICE, NOT A RELIGION) with Christ can initiate when you actually believe that he exists - Thats different to Faith, thats an actual certainty that hes there and that hes all around and can make you do and say some crazy stuff that people (ESPECIALLY THE MAN MADE CHURCH) get scared and sceptical of. Howd you experience Christ?You call down the HOLY SPIRIT into your life, he can effect you anywhere, making you laugh, cry,sing, dance, prophecy, have visions, fall over, run around EVEN FEEL like youve had a few too many beers (drunken in the holy spirit). HE SETS YOU FREE AND HIS AWESOME POWER COMES DOWN AND EFFECTS YOU IN A REAL WAY. When that happens, you never feel the same about life again, because you physically feel him, hes real and hes there - its like something switches over inside of you - your very being which God created. And GOD, NOT YOU, initiates this change. This is where the "good works" comes in. WHen you feel the holy spirit, you feel uplifted, enlightened, LIKE BEING UNPLUGGED FROM THE MATRIX IN A SENSE. You are so happy that you want to run around telling the world about Gods awesome AND REAL LOVE! When you are filled with this love, Gods love, it makes you a much bouncier happier person, it fills you with a new life, a new sense of wellbeing and love to others. YOU WANT TO LEAD THE LOST TO CHRIST - UNPLUG THE UNSUSPECTING PUBLIC FROM THIS WORLD AND LEAD THEM TO CHRIST SO THAT HE CAN OPEN THEIR EYES IN THE VERY SAME WAY THE HE OPENED YOURS. Now...that change there, is not a change that you made to yourself, but God does it, the realisation of Gods presence is mind blowing and changes you completely. God uses his people to evangelise and tell people about his very real existence, this is his plan and its perfect, because God is perfect. Religion feels dead, monotinous, and you sometimes wonder why you go every sunday and feel nothing enhancing you? BECAUSE ITS MANMADE, NOT OF GOD, OF MAN. And because of the nature of man, anything made by man without the involvement of God is doomed to fail. Thats why theres evil, because people have turned their backs on God and chosen to do their own thing. THere is no other way for us to exist than to exist in harmony together under Gods rule in the knowledge of his precence and power. This is the REAL WAY. CHRISTIANITY IS A RELATIONSHIP, IT IS NOT A RELIGION, IT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH POPES OR DEACONS OR CANDLES. YOU CAN PRAY STANDING ON YOUR HEAD, YOU CAN USE DIFFERENT DIALECT WHEN TALKING TO GOD. He is the mobile phone that always has signal, he is your friend, and is always listening and never forsakes those who love him and who long to be with him. God has a plan for your life, and because its exclusive to you (he made you so he knows what makes you happy according to your interests/personality,etc) it will be a great life. Gods way or your way? BEcause you are human, your way is doomed to fail, and if it seems all hunky dory in this life, it is your way that will provide you with an eternity in hell. Your manmade works in this life mean nothing, the "good works" that you initiate yourself, without the involvement of God. Good works from god as a result of his involvement in your life are the good works that are referred to in the bible. AND THERE IS NO OTHER WAY INTO HEAVEN OTHER THAN THROUGH CHRIST.

-- Chris (faker@thisisntrealright.com), January 01, 2004.

Chris,

Christ established the Church, not man. (see the extensive dialog with Faith, I have no desire to repeat what we just showed her, so please review it). If you have a bone to pick over this it is with Christ.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.

that is true. what man has done is made his own version of church and then centered all importance around whos version is right = RELIGION. Whos religion is right? whos denomination is right? we forget the real reason for church - fellowship with other christians to keep us strong in christ. not a team that rivalls another, a fellowship. i have no bone to pick with christ, i am daily feeling his power in my life and i pray that he would use me to spread the good news about his commitment to mankind

-- Chris (foo@bar.com), January 01, 2004.

Chris,
Chris, there is only one Church that Christ created. Albeit a lot of heresies that man created from that Church, but the Church still survives. That one Church, there can really be no historical doubt, is the Catholic Church. Again, read all the posts directed to Faith, we have been through this just these last few days. You have some catch-up to do. Sorry. If you write me off-line I can maybe summarize.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.

Chris,
I really don't understand what you are saying, you need to try to be clearer. Christ built a Church, that Church He built is now known as the Catholic Church. He established a hierarchy with Peter as the head. Again, we just went through all that with Faith, I have a feeling you didn't read what I referred you to, and I am not going to bore everyone here by repeating the long threads of proof, so you need to read them if you question the validity of the Catholic Church.

If you are saying we need to have better faith, I agree. But I don't agree that we discard or abandon the Church Christ built.

Otherwise, restate what you are trying to say.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), January 01, 2004.