If a person committs murder, such as the mofia, and then goes to confession to repent, is he or she forgiven of a sin that made it to God's top ten list?

-- Shawn Gisewhite (sharvin@acsworld.net), January 21, 2004

Answers

Yes, if he/she is truly repentant. Any sin that is truly repented and confessed is forgiven.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 21, 2004.

Shawn,

Since the Apostle Paul authorized the murder of Christians before his conversion, I would have thought you knew that God can forgive even murder. And how is it that you came under the impression that sins on God's "top ten list" can't be forgiven? Sins such as not honoring your parents, keeping the Sabbath and stealing are also on that list. Were you thinking that God doesn't forgive someone who fails to honor his parents?

Didn't you say you were a licensed minister in a previous thread? Of what kind of church? How can someone be a licensed minister and not know such basic fundamentals of the faith? I'm not trying to criticize, I'm just confused when I read your posts.

When someone who is a licensed minister of the Church of the Brethren (a church that's extremely different in beliefs and practices than Catholicism) pops onto this discussion forum and appears so willing and so quickly to embrace Catholicism (yet knowing nothing about the church) to the point of wanting to be a priest, wanting to make a rosary and then wanting to travel the world learning church history and offering to teach on the subject to pay your way (yet you admittedly know little about church history) . . . well, let's just say these are not normal things for someone to do without spending a great deal of time considering the decision and researching what you getting yourself into. There's absolutely nothing wrong with converting to Catholicism and wanting to pursue that direction, but you're not pursuing this in a logical manner.

Might I suggest that you read the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church first so you have a foundation upon which to understand the choices you're making. I don't think you've read either in their entirety and it would be a good place to start learning about your faith and to begin to understand why you believe what you do. Then, as you have questions about specific aspects of your faith, you can come here to ask them.

Just a suggestion.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.

Leave the young man alone, "buttinsky"! Shawn is only 19 years old. Read his January 21 post here.

Shawn knows a lot already, is trying to get at the truth, and is trying do what is right -- which is far more than anyone can say for you at that age. Nineteen seems to be about the time you fell away from the fullness of the truth, the Catholic Church -- right, Mr. Bowerman?

-- (Shawn's@New.Friend), January 21, 2004.

Only time for a quick anonymous insult and run, eh John?

I just read his post and it all the more confirms my suspicions. I didn't realize he was so young - can't figure out how one gets a ministry license without an appropriate education, but that's another matter. He needs to study and learn a lot more before making a decision to become a monk or a priest. How can one feel called to be a monk when one has no clue what Catholicism is much less what a monk is? And he's already professed to his desire to marry and his current desires with his girlfriend - not exactly monk material, but he doesn't know that. He's confused and searching for a direction in life - great. I just suggested that he begin by educating himself. Why is that bad advice worthy of your insults? I even encouraged his pursuit of Catholicism, again, no reason for you to get your panties in a wad - course you can't help it.

I have to admit though, posting under pseudo-handles is the only way you can coax me into even reading your posts. Normally, I see your initials and skip them for the abusive garbage they are.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.

Is it possible that this question is not so much about murder but about the exact nature of the confessional? It may well be that he has a normal non-Catholic responce of 'it just seems too easy'. If that is the case a simple explanation will do.

If that is your question Shawn, please advise. If it is truly about murder then correct me and we will discuss that instead.

Dano

-- Dan Garon (boethius61@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.

As far as my education I was decipled by my minister for two years, he taught me what he knew. I was 16 when I started that. When I was seventeen I enrolled in college and recieved a two year associates degree in Christian Ministries. Upon completion of the associates course, I recieved my license. In order for me to become ordained in the Church of the Brethren, I must enroll in what they call TRIM, Trainning In Ministry. It is a three year course. I would have five years of learning and two years of apprenticeship. That takes me to seven years which I believe is how long a Priest attends college/seminary? I could be wrong, sorry if I am. As far as my question, YES, DUGH, I know that all sins are forgiven if we ask sencerely. I wasn't sure what the Catholic Church's point of view on the matter was. I know someone who comitted murder, went to confession, murdered again and is now in prision. He was caught the second time. If he repents again, will the Church give him absolution. I know it's hard to know someon's mind, but please help. God Bless!!!

-- Shawn Gisewhite (sharvin@acswold.net), January 21, 2004.

YES, DUGH,

?!

I know someone who comitted murder, went to confession, murdered again and is now in prision. He was caught the second time. If he repents again, will the Church give him absolution.

God would grant such a person absolution through His Church, yes; provided the penitent asks for it, has true contrition, and a firm purpose of ammendment.

Criminal justice is flawed. Divine Justice is not only infinite, but infinitely perfect.

-- jake (j@k.e), January 21, 2004.

It should be explained to Mr. Gisewhite;
A hardened criminal is eligible to ask forgiveness in the sacrament of reconciliation. He would say the words, maybe even feel remorse, and have the priest's willing absolution. The Church stands behind it since Christ is the sole Author of this sacrament.

However, if the confession is disingenuous or hypocritical IN THAT SINNER'S HEART, God would not forgive him. He must be honestly repentent. There's no fooling the great Judge.

The Church very clearly teaches that God reads every heart with infinite justice as well as mercy. A sinner can deceive his confessor. But he will only have God's forgiveness after total repentence and confession. Catholics all KNOW this; and when we confess it's in true sorrow over our sins. It goes without saying, this is why a confessor can forgive us. Otherwise, it would be better not to confess at all. Saint Paul said it first: ''God is not mocked.''

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 21, 2004.

Only time for a quick anonymous insult and run, eh ...? ... abusive garbage ...

Not "insult" and not "abusive garbage."
Instead, fraternal correction of an interfering heretic. Spanking is supposed to hurt. But you have to learn from it too.

-- (Shawn's@New.Friend), January 21, 2004.

However, if the confession is disingenuous or hypocritical IN THAT SINNER'S HEART, God would not forgive him.

Not to mention the fact that making a bad confession is a mortal sin in itself, and that each Confession & Communion after (until a good confession is made) is a sacrilege (mortal sin).

-- jake (j@k.e), January 21, 2004.

"buttinsky" = name calling (insult), not fraternal correction

Go back and read your Bible, John, and learn what fraternal correction is really all about.

-- - (-@-.com), January 21, 2004.

"So," Shawn may be thinking, "what's the difference between confessing to a priest and confessing to God?"

Catholicism makes a distinction between perfect contrition and imperfect contrition. Perfect contrition is when the sinner repents out of love of God. Imperfect contrition is when the sinner repents out of fear of hell.

If a sinner has perfect contrition then his sins are forgiven immediately without the necessity of the sacrament of confession. However, for a Catholic, perfect contrition must include the sincere intent to go to confession at the earliest opportunity.

If a sinner has imperfect contrition then his sins can only be forgiven through the sacrament of confession.

-- The Sane Trad (sanetrad@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.

Just point out please: That refers to mortal sin. Not a venial sin.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 21, 2004.

Instead, fraternal correction of an interfering heretic. Spanking is supposed to hurt. But you have to learn from it too.

John, it's only "spanking" when it's accurate, appropriate and delivered by someone who's respected and you've struck out on all three counts. When you unjustifiably attack someone and hide behind pseudonyms, you've lost all credibility.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.

Gene:

I colsulted the Baltimore Catechism, and you're right:

Q. 795. Is it a grievous offense willfully to conceal a mortal sin in Confession? A. It is a grievous offense willfully to conceal a mortal sin in Confession, because we thereby tell a lie to the Holy Ghost, and make our Confession worthless.

Q. 796. How is concealing a sin telling a lie to the Holy Ghost?

A. Concealing a sin is telling a lie to the Holy Ghost, because he who conceals the sin declares in confession to God and the priest that he committed no sins but what he has confessed, while the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, saw him committing the sin he now conceals and still sees it in his soul while he denies it.

Q. 797. Why is it foolish to conceal sins in confession? <.b>

A. It is foolish to conceal sins in confession:

(1) Because we thereby make our spiritual condition worse;

(2) We must tell the sin sometime if we ever hope to be saved;

(3) It will be made known on the day of judgment, before the world, whether we conceal it now or confess it.

Q. 798. What must he do who has willfully concealed a mortal sin in Confession?

A. He who has willfully concealed a mortal sin in Confession must not only confess it, but must also repeat all the sins he has committed since his last worthy Confession.

Q. 799. Must one who has willfully concealed a mortal sin in confession do more than repeat the sins committed since his last worthy confession?

A. One who has willfully concealed a mortal sin in confession must, besides repeating all the sins he has committed since his last worthy confession, tell also how often he has unworthily received absolution and Holy Communion during the same time.

-- jake (j@k.e), January 21, 2004.

Oops.

-- jake (j@k.e), January 21, 2004.