I'm curious to what you all think. Do any of you believe we are EXTREMELY close to Christ return? Jesus said there would be many signs and wonders to lead even the elect (if it were possible) away from the true gospel. There are a dime and a dozen of churches out there with signs and wonders now-a-days than there has ever been. Even people claiming to be the "Christ" has happened. The christian churches out there today are getting farther and farther away from morality and doctrine truth becoming very liberal.

Jesus also said nation would rise against nation, wars and rumors of wars. Now that has always been going on but you have to admit the 20'th centuery has by far been the bloodiest ever where we have had two wars caled WORLD WAR 1 and 2! Rumor of wars have been greatly increased especialy since last year.

He said mans knowlege will be greatly increased. Wow! Look at all the technology we have in our day! We have even been to space! Imagine what a first century or even a middle age person would say to that!

He also said the world would be like Sodom and Gamorah (if I spelled it right). Look around today and see how corrupt pretty much everything has become! Gay couples adopting children, pornogrophy ALL OVER THE PLACE such as TV, Movies, even cartons, the internet, phone sex, etc. Mankind has always been doing these things true, but since theres much more ways to do them it seems it has all gotten worse. Abortion, youthinasia (talks about it) violence in schools, even teachings in school where you learn the world was just an "accident".

Scientist have said in the past 100 years we have had more earthquaks than ever recorded history, that "freak" storms have came in areas that never get them. Deceases such as AIDS, deadly flu viruses, a number more plus the strange desease during (I think WW1) World War 1 that killed more people than the war did. Famine, Pestlence, all seems to be increased.

But strangest of all I think is the churchs and what has become of the gospel. I thank God for the Catholic Church and PRAY that I am ready when JESUS CHRIST returns on a day of paradise for some, judgment day for others!

-- Jason (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), February 02, 2004

Answers

These are very vague signs, and people have been speculating that the end times were near since the days of the Roman Empire. There are a million and a half "signs" from every era that could have pointed to the end times. But it hasn't happened. Back in the Middle Ages, people would say that the end was near evey time there was a meteor shower or a King died. We look at that now as being trivial, just as our descendents will probably look upon our problems as trivial.

War? There's always been war. You want to talk about a big, long, bloody war, how about the Crusades?

Our technology? Your arragance betrays you. I'm sure the people of the Middle Ages thought their technology was quite advanced as well. And it would be, by ancient Hebrew standards.

Corruption? Things have always been corrupt. We're just not as good at hiding it anymore.

Storms? It's global warming. All the chemicals big corporations pump into the air and sea are screwing this planet up. Of course it doesn't help that the Republicans are allowing them to do it unimpeded...

Disease? Two words: black death.

I doubt that these times are any more significant than any others we've seen. History happens in cycles. There's periods of upheaval, when a great empire falls, and then a few centuries of relative calm. It happened this way with the Roman Empire, it happened this way with the British Empire, and it is currently happening with the American Empire.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), February 02, 2004.

Yep, we don't know when the end times will be.

According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by "distress" and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching. Since the Ascension Christ's coming in glory has been imminent, even though "it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority."[Acts 1:7; Cf. Mk 13:32. ]. Catholic Catechism 672

There have been wars and rumor of wars during all of recorded history.

The disease during WWI you are trying to remember was the flu. More people died of influenza in 1918 than in WWI also more than in the four-years of the Black Death (Bubonic Plague) from 1347 to 1351.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), February 02, 2004.

Ya my aragance betrays me huh ANTI-BUSH. Keep your insults to your self. Everything you said I am aware of. I am NOT saying I know when Christ will return or plan on preaching it. I just find it interesting about all the signs Christ spoke pretaining to the end times. And since the discovery of electricity we have dwarfed ANYONE of history with the technology we have RAPIDLY come up with.

The way the churches are away from morality and doctrine I think is very interesting along with people claiming to be the Christ. And with all the signs and wonders Christ spoke about there are more of them than there has EVER been.

The crusades, swords and spears are nothing compared to the amount of lives bombs and bullets claim.

And say what you want but America has fallen greatly in the past few decades. The family life is gone!

I don't want this to be a pathedic arguing issue I just wanted to talk friendly about it without commets of Arrogance. Perhaps people are afraid to talk about it because there not walking with Christ and fear his return. And like I said., I don't know the day he will return and don't care to dwell on it, but every now and then I think it's interesting to talk about it.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the Bible says the END TIMES began during the book of ACTS.

But the preaching of the gospel must be reached to every nation. That's now easier to do with the interenet, TV, Radio, or plane travel making it worldwide.

-- Jason (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), February 03, 2004.

Yep, we don't know when the end times will be

Indeed , so , I'll take the day as it comes !!

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the Bible says the END TIMES began during the book of ACTS.

Euh .... ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), February 03, 2004.

Anyone who doubts that end times are coming quickly need only take a look at Revelations 13, particularly verses 16-17:

16 It forced all the people, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to be given a stamped image on their right hands or their foreheads, 17 so that no one could buy or sell except one who had the stamped image of the beast's name or the number that stood for its name.

Now take a look at what Applied Digital Solutions has been up to:

http://www.adsx.com/prodservpart/verichip.html

Anyone care to comment?

-- Teri (none@given.com), February 03, 2004.

No.

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 03, 2004.

There are some significant words which His Holiness, Pope Paul VI spoke in 1977, one year before his death, and which are recorded in the book, "The Secret Paul VI", by Jean Guitton, pages 152 and 153 and Reference (7), p. ix.

"There is a great uneasiness, at this time, in the world and in the Church, and that which is in question is the faith. It so happens now that I repeat to myself the obscure phrase of Jesus in the Gospel of St. Luke: 'When the Son of Man returns, will He still find faith on the earth?' It so happens that there are books coming out in which the faith is in retreat on some important points, that the episcopates are remaining silent and these books are not looked upon as strange. This, to me, is strange. I sometimes read the Gospel passage of the end times and I attest that, at this time, some signs of this end are emerging."

"Are we close to the end ? This we will never know. We must always hold ourselves in readiness, but everything could last a very long time yet."

"What strikes me, when I think of the Catholic world, is that within Catholicism, there seems sometimes to predominate a non-Catholic way of thinking, and it can happen that this non- Catholic thought within Catholicism, will tomorrow become the stronger. But it will never represent the thought of the Church. It is necessary that a small flock subsist, no matter how small it might be".Pope Paul VI - 1977

-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), February 03, 2004.

Jason,

Chill, buddy. Wasn't trying to insult you. I wasn't really calling you specificaly arrogant, I was saying that the idea that our technology i so advanced as to herlad the end times is just a bit arrogant. The people of medieval Europe must have thought their technology was astounding. The technology our children will have in just a few decades will make ours seem archaic in comparison.

I know America is in decline. That was the point I was trying to make before. It's been happening since the 40's. America has lost sight of the Republic it once was, just as the Roman Empire did. The power of the federal government has rapidly expanded in the past 50 years and Americans have lost any sense of identification with the oppressive, greedy spider-web of buraeucracy we call a government. Our economy has become increasingly monopolistic. Most industries have a handfull of huge corporations controlling 80% of the market. TV and video games have replaced any kind of of mental stimulation with mind candy, producing a generation of people who are virtualy incapable of abstract thought. People would rather sit on the couch and watch Judge Judy and eat Funyuns than get off their asses and do something. America is the fattest nation in the world.

Yes, America is in decline, but I don't think we should simply count on Christ's return to solve our problems. What America neds is a social revolution.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), February 03, 2004.

From Mathew: where you take these prophecies.

3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8. All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25. Behold, I have told you before. 26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

But likewise, the Lord said he shall coem as a theif in the night, swiftly, slentl.y, that no man shall know his coming. So U beleive this as well, and content myself to let God handle my future, and come when he so comes.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 03, 2004.

Teri, Everyone, is well, everyone. I seriously doubt Applied Digital Solutions will impact everyone on earth. No matter what visions of grandure their CEO may have :)

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), February 03, 2004.

Global warming? two words. leftist hot air. Disease? Aids. Leftist contribution to america. Broken families? Leftist social revolution.

Etcetera etcetera etcetera

-- J. Fernandes (goananda@hotmail.com), February 03, 2004.

Does anyone listen to Michael Savage on the radio, "The Savage Nation"

He complains alot about the leftist hot air too. :)

-- Jason (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), February 04, 2004.

I am not really into politics, so no...thats why My debate form here is meager...that and I am a guest.

-- zarove (zaroff3@juno.com), February 04, 2004.

Jason Yes we are living in the end times. We are living in the last event which is the Great Tribulations. I don't know how long it will last but definitely a short period of time. Possibly a few years. Here are some clues of the Great tribulations.

The death of the two witnesses identifies with the destruction of the church. Satan is loosed at the beginning of the Great Tribulation and is allowed by God to destroy the churches. When we look at the sending forth of the Gospel during the church age, we must take note of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. These two witnesses represent the true believers. Initially, they identify with the true believers in the churches during the church age.

The command to go into all the world with the Gospel had been given at the beginning of the church age. The carrying out of this command was typified by the two witnesses of which the Bible speaks in Revelation 11. Revelation 11:3, 4 declares:"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."

The two witnesses are identified in Revelation 11:4 as two olive trees and two candlesticks. The two olive trees identify with the olive tree of Romans 11:16-24. This underscores that these two witnesses represent true believers.

The two witnesses also identify with the two candlesticks. This immediately identifies with the church age. Revelation 1:20 and Revelation 2:1 teach us that symbolically, each church is represented by a candlestick amongst which Christ walks. The candlestick represents the light of the Gospel as it is sent out into the world during the church age by the churches; and during the latter rain by the true believers who are altogether outside of the churches.

The number two (two witnesses, two olive trees, two candlesticks), identifies with true believers who faithfully bring the Gospel. Remember Jesus sent the 12 disciples out two and two (Mark 6:7) and the seventy two and two (Luke 10:1).

We see the End of the Church Age in the death of these two witnesses, as we read Revelation 11:7, which declares:"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

The destruction of the churches is not a physical literal destruction, it is a spiritual destruction as God allows the true believers to be driven out. The churches become spiritually desolate because the Holy Spirit no longer works in the churches and Satan rules in them.

This destruction of the churches is made evident by the declaration of Revelation 11:7:"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." It is seen in the language of II Corinthians 10:6:"And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled."

II Thessalonians 2:3, 4 speaks of it in this way:"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

All of these passages tell us in different ways that the End of the Church age will come. We see the believers in the churches killed in Revelation 11:7. God will "revenge" the disobedience of the churches after their work is done. The phrase "when your obedience is fulfilled" matches with Revelation 11:7, which says, "when they shall have finished their testimony."

The II Thessalonians 2 passage tells us the death of the churches comes with Satan ruling in the churches. So, all of these passages are telling us the same thing, namely, that the End of the Church age will come at some point. Let us examine some verses in Revelation 13 to better understand this Great Tribulation time and the End of the Church age. We will start with verses 1-3:"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

This beast is a representation of Satan. But it is looking particularly at the rule of Satan over all of the unsaved during the Great Tribulation of our day. We know this to be so for at least two reasons. The first is that he comes out of the sea. In the Bible, the sea frequently represents hell. Remember that Satan was cast into hell (he became eternally subject to the wrath of God), at the cross. But remember, too, that Revelation 20 teaches that just before the end, Satan would be loosed from his prison so that he would go out to deceive the nations of the world (Revelation 20:7, 8). That is why Revelation 13:3 declares his death wound was healed.

This beast has seven heads and ten horns but the ten horns are crowned. This indicates the rule of Satan during the Great Tribulation period. In Revelation 17:12, we read:"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

God has loosed Satan to prepare the world for the judgment of the last day. But in God's divine arrangement, judgment is to begin at the house of God (I Peter 4:17). How can Satan overcome the saints? Aren't they forever safe with Christ? True, but he overcomes them in the sense that they are driven from the churches and congregations. Remember John 16:2:"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

During the Great Tribulation, as we will presently see, Satan will be ruling in the congregations, and the true believers will be killed (driven out of the churches). This identifies with Revelation 11:7:"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

Thus, during the Great Tribulation, except for the true believers who no longer are a part of the churches and congregations, Satan will rule over all, both in the churches and outside of the churches. Satan ruling in the churches corresponds with the End of the Church age, God is no longer using the churches to evangelize the world.

Continuing with Revelation 13, we read in verses 11, 12:"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed."

God now is speaking of a beast coming out of the earth. We know that this beast also is Satan. However, Satan now is presented as anti- Christ, that is, he looks and acts like Christ. He has two horns like a lamb (that is, like Christ the Lamb of God). Yet we are not to be deceived, "he spake as a dragon." It is Satan masquerading as Christ as he takes over the rulership of the churches and congregations during the Great Tribulation of our day. This identifies with the language of II Thessalonians 2:3, 4:"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "

The temple of God is the churches and congregations. But during the Great Tribulation, Satan will be sitting (that is, ruling) in these churches. God the Holy Spirit will no longer be in the midst of the congregations. Satan has overcome the true believers by driving them out (they are killed), and now he is free to rule as he pleases. Those who remain in these churches think they are worshipping God, but in actuality, they are worshipping Satan. Thus, this beast that comes out of the earth also represents Satan.

More particularly it represents Satan as he rules in the churches and congregations during the Great Tribulation period of our day. Later on, in Revelation 19:20, he is called the false prophet. He is called the false prophet because it is Satan ruling in the churches and congregations. The timing of this terrible and grand event is known by its relationship to the timing of the end of the Great Tribulation.

In Matthew 24, we see that God gives us a very careful chronology that covers the relationship of the final tribulation to the return of Christ. In Matthew 24:29-30 God declares:"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

This tells us emphatically that the last event before the return of Christ is the tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24:21-22. The words "immediately after" do not allow for any passage of time between the tribulation and the events spoken of in verses 29-31.

The events that immediately follow the tribulation, the sun is darkened and the moon does not give its light, indicate that it is the end of time.

The sun and the moon regulate the passage of time. When time is no more, Christ has returned. It is the last day of this world's existence. Then we read that the stars begin to fall from heaven. This is language of Judgment Day and the destruction of the universe.

God gives us further amplification of this event in Revelation 6:12- 17, where He declares: "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? "

This can be language of Judgment Day only. We are not surprised to read of the collapse of the universe. In II Peter 3:10-13 we read: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

We read in Revelation 7. The sealing of the 144,000 is completed in verse 8. This is the symbolic number to represent all those saved during the church age. Notice what the next verse, Revelation 7:9 says: "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

Notice that God says; "After this." We can understand this now. God is speaking of another group. Notice that God is emphasizing that it is from all peoples of the world and no man can know the number them. In Revelation 7:14, God gives more information about those in verse 9. He says: "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

God explains that the ones in Revelation 7:14 are the those that came out of Great Tribulation. That ties these people back to the Great Tribulation time that we are in, the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24. They were saved after the 144,000 were already saved which represents all those saved during the church age. Once the Great Tribulation began, the Holy Spirit was taken out of the midst of the churches, meaning that God was no longer saving in the churches. Therefore, these had to be ones saved outside the churches.

May God give us wisdom.....God Bless

-- GOD's Servant (theEndisNear@nowhere.com), February 04, 2004.

Yes. Everything that has happened to America is the fault of the left. Global warming doesn't exist. The left is primarily responsible for AIDS. There is no polution, and if there is, the right is certainly not to blame for letting big buisiness pump all the chemicals into our air.

Jason, tell me you don't actauly like Michael Savage. The man is a scumbag, and idiot, and a racist!

Here are some of his quotes (I'm writing these from memory...they may not be exact but it's the gist of what he said):

"Just be careful. One day, when you and your family are cooking hot dogs in the backyard, just be careful, because your Korean neighbor might actualy be cooking his dog. That's how they do it over there, you know."

"You and all your sodomite friends should all get AIDS and die"--to a caller who expressed sympathy for homosexuals.

"Tell me, is your real last name Hitler, or is it Mousolini? Is your last name Sung, or is it Mao? Is your real last name Pol Pot, or is your real first name Adolf? Thanks for the call, you anti-semetic piece of vermin."--To a caller who said that there was nothing wrong with people protesting his show.

"You are the liberal scum who should be rounded up from within and put in camps for what you are doing to this country. The problem is that you have no love in your life and you have no orgasms, and I realize that none of you liberals can experience orgasms, or else you wouldn't be this way. If you could acheive a sexual orgasm, your repressed anger would be gone and you wouldn;t be such a fool."-- to a caller who dissagreed with Savage about Ritalin.

He refers to Asians as "little soy eaters" and "little devils" who should be nuked. He also says that Chinese-Americans should be forced to sign loyalty oaths or go to internment camps. He calls non-white countries "turd-world nations". Anyone who dissagrees with him is a "nazi", a "brownshirt", "antisemetic", or a "gay sodomite who should get AIDS and die".

There are plenty of other Savage gems, but I think I've made my point.

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), February 04, 2004.

dear God's Servant,

this might help your end of the world case: i just saw the beast the other day. In fact, my neighbor was walking him down the street on a leash... Hows that for crazy? Um, he was missing the horns and stuff and all, but thats because hes the beast and he can hide that kind of thing.

If youre looking for him, hes all teeth and fur, about three feet tall, unless he stands on his hind legs, and he has a particular aversion to cats (ie-- likes to eat them, that has to be satanic). Don't mistake him for a dog though, this one is definately the beast in hiding cus he is one UGLY dog.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........ chill out. stop guessing man, we're not in the end times yet, necessarily. You'll never know if we are, either, because the bible tells us it will be unexpected. just be ready for it in all things that you do and you'll come out just fine... and maybe drop a bit off of that end of the world anxiety that seems to be influencing you.

-- delightfully anonymous for this one (thanksForNotReporting@moderatorsAreCool.com), February 05, 2004.

"all are just pretentious notions intended for the sedution of credulous sectarian non-Catholics by your phony Bible scholars"

"entering into a Catholic site and showing your abyssmal ignorance is excatly what God has brought you to. Here you'll find no symphony for your pride; you'll be punished. You'll learn only the laughter of Christ's true followers. It's lucky for you to come under a false name you've chosen. You haven't have the guts to expose your real name, very obviously. Your a pure D nincompoop."

"OH lets back up; you know I was responding to the END TIMES BLOCK HEAD and not to our pretentious anti-Bushie, the ultra-leftist Boy Wonder."

"Though we can contest his vile copy too. It's not difficult. (He is the opposite end of a spectrum featuring dopey Micheal Savage. No intent to whitewash that mercurial drunk.)

Well now, FEEL BETTER CHAVEZ????? Have you releived stress. Um...Your a Catholic. A Catholic who likes to insult?? Read what I said EARLIER as in "I thank God for the CATHOLIC CHURCH"

My phony Bible scholars huh? I deserve to be punished huh? Symphony for my pride? I haven't got the guts to put in my real name? Oh ya.. I'm a D nincoompoop and a Block Head. (Last time I looked my head looked more circular than square)

I have stated my opinon and I may be wrong. I DON'T CARE! I did not intend top start this post for PATHEDIC arguing that results in commets such as the ones that came out of your mouth. I am a Catholic and if you are as well (a baptized Catholic) then your my brother. Perhaps I am wrong about the end times. Perhaps we still have 1000 more years to come. THEN SO BE IT! I care not to start running around preaching "Christ is shortly returning, repent" As far as I'm concerned the end of the world is the day you die and are judged. So lets stay walking in the faith.

I was concerned and curious about the things I heard pretaining to the end times and was looking for FRIENDLY fellowship about them and even expecting dissagreement but NOT INSULTS! Is that how we are to be like Christ? Do you think THE LORD is pleased when people say remarks such as YOU did to others? Is that showing a Christ-like attitude? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!!!!

I apologize for anyone reading this post who are not Catholics and are seeing how SOME act towards others. That is not how our beloved church is supposed to act towards a brother or even an enemy!

And for some strange reason eugene c. chavez your response I don't see on this thread but only in my e-mail?

And NO I am not a Micheal Savage follower and do dislike his attitude.

And I praise the Lord I am NOT the person I used to be.

Whether the end is near or not, COME LORD JESUS, COME!

-- Jason (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), February 05, 2004.

Jason

We must not ignor what the Bible teaches!!!!!!

When we read these verses, I wonder.........

2 Corinthians 11:13 "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.....

These verses sound like our leaders from the churches. Why would God allow this?

1 Peter 4:7 "But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer...... 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? "

When we turn to the Book of Daniel, we must find the verses that relate to Matthew 24:15. The key phrases are abomination of desolation and "standing in the holy place."

Two verses in the Book of Daniel identify with these phrases. The first is Daniel 11:31, where we read: "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

In Daniel 11:31 the Bible is prophesying concerning a time when the sanctuary of strength would be polluted, and the daily would be taken away, replaced by the abomination of desolation. We know that the sanctuary of strength must be where God is worshiped. It is here that the daily sacrifices and the daily candlesticks are being utilized in service to God. The only place that can be in view is the temple.

But according to this verse at some future date the worship of God would be replaced by the abomination of desolation. Matthew 24:15 instructs us that this dreadful event must identify with the Great Tribulation that comes just before the end of the world. We will also learn that Daniel 12 will give further proof that this is at the end of the world.

But why does the Bible tell us to look at the Book of Daniel concerning the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. We have just concluded that the holy place must be the same entity as the sanctuary of strength where the daily sacrifices and daily lamp stands were burning. Thus, we can know that the holy place is the temple because that is where the true believers are ordinarily found. That is where the Holy Spirit is present.

Near the end of time, the temple that God speaks of is the corporate external body of believers as they are found in churches and congregations. While the churches do not offer daily sacrifices, they should have a daily or continual candlestick giving the light of the Gospel to the world. They, without question, are the only holy place that can be in view. It is the local church that has been given the Bible together with the commission to send the Gospel into the whole world.

But from Daniel 11:31, the daily will be taken away when the abomination of desolation is set up. This information agrees with that which we previously learned concerning the fact that during the Great Tribulation, the Holy Spirit will no longer be in the midst. That is, the candlestick will be removed from the churches and congregations. Moreover, Satan will be reigning in the churches. He is the very essence of desolation.

May God give us wisdom!!!!! Peace!

-- God's Servant (NoEmail@here.com), February 05, 2004.

God's servant, thank you for your concern and KINDNESS that others show not, but I don't believe God is calling us out of churches. What you say sounds like what a radio talk show host Harold Camping teaches on family radio. I've heard it before but do not believe it. Family radio seems more like a cult to me.

I believe God's TRUTH FULLY is in the Catholic Church though as MORE protestant denominations continue to form, the TRUE gospel PLUS morality is falling farther and farther away. God bless you.

-- Jason (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), February 06, 2004.

Jason, don't take what "delightfully anonymous" has said as personal insult. I believe it was a veiled attempt (with what he considers humour) to prove his point.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), February 06, 2004.

youre mostly right, Ed. My point, made clear, is that you can suppose that this is the end time, but it won't make a lick of difference. People used to suppose that Nero was the beast. and hitler, and marylin manson, and the popes, and just in general a specific church would be known as the beast. I've also heard that the beast will be a strange animal that no one has ever seen before. THATS my point.

Its ridiculous to use biliolitry to try to push out bologne doctrines because the bible specifically states that NO ONE will know. that means no matter how smart you are, or how many nights in a row, you will NEVER figure out the end times.

But where you er is the direction of my comments. I wasnt talking to Jason at all, but rather to "God's servant," so jason shouldnt show any offense at my comment at all

-- delightfully anonymous for this one too (moderatorsRock@notTelling.com), February 06, 2004.

Jason- Have you read "The Book Of Revelation; A Catholic Interpretation Of The Apocalypse" by Rev. John Tickle? It's an easy and interesting read, giving insight into apocalyptic views and why they're prevalent. pbs.org also has some interesting history concerning the subject.

I think most of the apocaliptic preaching is like wife beating. Not matter how hard or frequently its done, no one respects it, especially the abused.

-- Mark Advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), February 06, 2004.

Thanks for your clarification "delightfully anonymous". I didn't think you meant any harm to anyone.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), February 06, 2004.

AH, OH BOY!!!! No delightfully anomynous I wasn't speaking to you. I believe you have a point on what you said, but I was speaking to Eugene Chavez. Look at the begining of my second to last post where I start what I say in quotes " ", That's what Chavez said to me.

-- Jason (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), February 06, 2004.

''[I just] find it interesting about all the signs Christ spoke pertaining to the end times. And since the discovery of electricity we have dwarfed ANYONE of history with the technology we have RAPIDLY come up with. The way the churches are away from morality and doctrine I think is very interesting along with people claiming to be the Christ. And with all the signs and wonders Christ spoke about there are more of them than there has EVER been. -- The crusades, swords and spears are nothing compared to the amount of lives bombs and bullets claim.''

Jason, your post was replete with ''signs'' which you speculated menaning the end-times.

These are precisely what protestants and anti-Catholics love to rant about. They love to blow the trumpets about end-times, rapture, the beast, the mark of the beast, and our Holy Father who is, by their interpretation, antichrist.

I realised even at the start, you say you're Catholic. But why then, are you falling into this fascination with fundamentalist protestant themes? You & I aren't serving God by announcing the end-times. There's no point to that. In Christ's gospels we are instructed to watch and pray, for we know not the hour of His coming.

Yes, I can be blunt. I'm sorry. It's not meant to intimidate, but to light a fire; bring us to our senses. In these many sites are some who will lull you with respectful suggestions and false fellowship. They are not our friends. We will gain little from relaxing in their embraces. They read the Bible for entertainment!

If you feel yourself a faithful Catholic, frequent the sacraments. PRAY. Converse with us. Whenever you deal in star-gazing and wondering about things to come, you become merely superstitious. God wants you as a faithful son. Jesus wants us as faithful followers. The book of Revelations (protestant) Apocalypse, Catholic-- isn't for predicting future events. It is for contemplating the Will of God and His glory. Don't think of the end times, look out for your immortal soul.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 06, 2004.

LOL, Ok Chavez, thank you. I feel better now and understand now. Especialy how you mentioned "superstitious"! I just wish you could of answered like that to me in the first place because your last few answers were just harsh (even another Catholic friend of mine who cares not about the end times read what you said before and was displeased).

Like I said I did not know too much about it. I've never even studied it before when I was a protestant but only heard bits and pieces about things so I decided to ask here what other CATHOLICS believed. It does seem like superstitious for all the people out there who are deeply into it (mainly protestants as you said) with all the dime and dozen books they have written about.

P.S. Well the fire you intended to start didn't work but your last post of kindness did. Thanks for your answer Chavez.:)

-- Jason (Enchanted fire5@aol.com), February 07, 2004.

Another fundamentalist free lancer, Jason; Infatuated with his Bible wisdom. Truly the world is awash today in false prophets, determined to put their personal stamp on the holy Bible! They're a dime a dozen. Pray for these misguided souls and the ones they lead astray. Of that segment we know only strictly one thing. God hasn't visited His grace upon their churches. They live in bibliolatry and self-absorption.

Ten virgins awaited the coming of the Bridegroom. There were five foolish virgins, and five were wise; preserving oil for their lamps.

All were Christ's in the beginning; but five allowed their oil (graces) to run out. These are the ''reformation'' assemblies. They tried to go away (forming anti-Catholic sects) and buy oil for their lamps, before the Bridegroom should return and find their lamps empty. He is coming; and they're out of GRACE.

The five faithful virgins are WISE (Catholics) and have saved oil -- sacramental GRACE; so that when Jesus the Bridegroom enters the bridal chamber they will receive Him as He has deserved from His loved ones. Their lamps bright and HOLY! It's no accident, really. He gave us His Holy Church so we'd never be left without His grace. I'm saddened to see others outside, who cannot light a lamp for Him. Where will they ''buy oil'' for their lamps? Not in the world! It's a shame. Let's pray for these unfortunates, Jason.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 09, 2004.

Eugene, while deleting God's Servant's posts for insulting the Holy Catholic Church, I inadvertently deleted your post as well, so I have re-posted it here. My apologies.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), February 09, 2004.

You aren't a ''servant'' of God. You're a lost sheep; alone in a wilderness of Sola Scriptura. Your question:

''So what happened to these Catholic churches? Let's read Revelations:''

Is quite unbiblical. There were no ''churches''. Jesus Christ is Founder of just ONE Holy Church. I'll give you ONE guess what that Church is today?

Read Revelations all you want. Our Lord was writing to outpost missions of His One Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church. The seven ''lampstands'' --one for each ''church'', were bishoprics. He wrote to bishops in the One Church, who had become 1.) Unproductive or unfaithful to the Holy Gospel 2.) Worthy of His praise and encouragement. He reminded these bishops whom they were working for. The Alpha and the Omega; all of them in the Catholic Church

For some reason you dwell on the bishops who received reprimands. How about those who were given praise? Go back to where you came, Sir. Come back when you've cultivated a sense of respect and good will. May I remind you in passing:

All your ancestors were Catholics, and not very long ago. You are a descendent of the Church's saints and martyrs, very likely-- All Catholics. They lived that faith for which a Bible was written! The New Tesament of Jesus Christ! You realise the Holy Bible is from the Catholic Church? No other church produced it for the Holy Spirit. The Church of your blessed ancestors collected the writings of the saints, certified them, authorised their canon, wrote, copied and preserved the Bible for all Christian generations. A timeless, priceless Catholic enterprise, for the glory of God! Allelujah!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 09, 2004.

OK, Ed; all's well. I hope he/she sees my reply. Don't worry about deleting mine whenever necessary. God will understand. Pray for that wayward Christian.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 09, 2004.