My girlfriend of just over three months has serious issue with the Catholic Church. Religion is a taboo topic and is a matter of serious contention between us. Any time I try to voice my support for the church it bothers her. I am really at a loss for words with her and I am concerned. She was raised as a Catholic and an Anglican. Her mother is Anglican and her father is Catholic. She told me she doesn't go to church anymore because she doesn’t agree with some of the Church’s teachings regarding Women Priests, and a few other things that conflict with modern secularism. She believes the church is old fashioned and needs to be updated to reflect modern times. She also thinks that it doesn’t matter if you go to church or not. She thinks that all that matters is that you are good person.

Tonight I saw a book on her table that her mother gave her. The book was called the Da Vinci Code. When I asked her what it was about she told me it was a very controversial book that attacks the Catholic Church. I was troubled by this and asked her why she was reading it. She told me that she likes to keep an open mind about everything. She doesn’t like to believe in everything people tell her (ie what the Catholic Church says.) This made me think that her mother is leading her down the wrong path in life and that she is confused.

Some of the things I ended up telling here were 1. Truth is that which never changes. 2. The bible is not to be taken literally 3. The historical facts regarding Jesus are not important. (ie: did he get married, did he have women apostles) . No one will ever have these answers. 4. All that matters is that a person loves thy neighbor is truth 5. All that matters is what is in your heart 6. When I need answers I pray to God for them I don’t read books 7. If you are reading books against the Catholic Church try reading some that support the Catholic Church as well.

I knew that I could not start quoting scripture or anything like that because it would of just started a night of bitterness. Upon reflection, I just wish I would of said more to her.

My gut reaction was to just end the relationship with her tonight. I want a woman that believes in the same things that I do. I don’t need this tension.

In the future, I need to strongly consider what I should say to her. Should I just avoid the topic of conversation? How do I deal with this? I will pray for her and for answers. I need to know what God wants me to do here.

Does anyone know of any books I can suggest to her? I need something that will open up her heart and not hate the church. I will buy it for her and see how open of a mind she has.

-- kev (magiccarpetride_@hotmail.com), February 09, 2004

Answers

Kev,

Your gut reaction is probably best. Throw that fish back now and find another. A good parting gift for her would be "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese. It is a readable version of the Catechism. Also explain to her the "The Da Vinci Code" is not factual in any way. It is pure fiction, and the fact that she portrays it as fact is disturbing.

Better for you in the long run to cut that relationship off. She does not sound like she will join you in growing in the Faith, or educating any children that way. Good luck!

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), February 09, 2004.

My gut reaction was to just end the relationship with her tonight

That would be not smart , however she has the right to believe what SHE wants , as you said , her father is catholic , her mother , anglican !!

I want a woman that believes in the same things that I do. I don’t need this tension

In relationship , you've got ups & downs , (so) also you will always have things you both agree , and things you don't agree , so , you both have to find a solution , otherwise , the relation is senseless and will be over !!

In the future, I need to strongly consider what I should say to her. Should I just avoid the topic of conversation? How do I deal with this? I will pray for her and for answers. I need to know what God wants me to do here

Don't force her , but talk , if it doesn't work , accept her view , just as she has to accept your view !! __ Or even maybe leave it , drop the subject for few days ; by pushing her , you will get the opposite !!

Does anyone know of any books I can suggest to her? I need something that will open up her heart and not hate the church. I will buy it for her and see how open of a mind she has

Books don't help , but ok , maybe you will find some theoretic advice , but every person is different , unique , talk about !! __ I understand , she has to stop the hate-words , however , she has the right to have & say her own thoughts (not by physical violence) !!

If she really doesn't want to be catholic , than you have to accept it or face the facts .... !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), February 09, 2004.

The Catholic Church teaches us to marry ANOTHER CATHOLIC. It's very simple and it makes so much sense, doesn't it? Husband-Catholic, Wife-Catholic, Kids-Catholic, Grandkids-Catholic -- this is the good way.

The better way, according to St. Paul, if you're single, and can handle your sexual urges, is don't look for a spouse ... a life of chastity for God is the best.

-- AHS (ahs90210@hotmail.com), February 09, 2004.

its interesting, isnt it. i dont know her personally, obviously, but does she have the same cynacism for the anglican faith? or is her disdain for cathlocism learned from society?

ask her that, kev. with what i read from your post, i would gather she is being very unreasonable and you have been very patient.

its hip nowadays for women to feel radical, be "free thinking", and all that.

-- jas (jas_r_22@hotmail.com), February 09, 2004.

Kev:

Take a look at what the Baltimore Catechism says on the subject. It reflects the constant teaching of the Church.

-- jake (j@k.e), February 09, 2004.

I'd consider posing the following question to her: If she's really interested in being "open-minded" then why not be open to learning more about what the Church (Catholic) really teaches?

I've been trying to understand this about folks touting the mantra of open-mindedness... Why does it seem that they want to be open-minded about everything EXCEPT the teachings of Holy Mother Church?

It is my firm conviction that if she undertook to seriously learn, consider, and pray about what the Church teaches that she would find that the Church is right. She would find that the Church teaches the truth; even the parts of the truth that we don't like or are hard to accept.

Her desire to be "open-minded" is good... it indicates how she understands that some of the things she personally believes are probably wrong. And she should admit that it's at least *possible* that some of those things she's wrong about might be the very areas where she disagrees with Church teaching. If she looks at it honestly, maybe she'll come to see that it's not sensible to remain shackled by her own flawed understanding. If she's looking to grow beyond her current understanding, what better place than the Church left for us by Christ Himself?

I wish you both well...

-- Greg Adas (gadas@nc.rr.com), February 09, 2004.

Her open minmdedness can be explaoned. Its ntothe true sort, of which she will hear a balanced aergument and listen to either side to make an infomed opinion. Her sort of open mindedness is the kind that is so typical these days.

She begins with the presumption that she is right, and then procceeds to learn anythign she can that supports her own veiw, while likewise adopying beleifs that appeal to her without queasiton. To ueasyion the validity of any line of reasonign that is either the current social trend, or that she happens to find appealing, is closed minded. Likewise, it is closed minded ot learn about things that oppose her veiwpoints.

See, the idea of women preists appeals to her, since Rman Catholisism doesnt permit this, then the Chruch is outdated and needs reform. She never bothers to ask why social stircytites become outdated and has in mind the notion of technological advance. This new way is better than the old way, because its new. This, of coruse, is bad logic when dealign with human interaction or social constructs. But it is nonetheless the misguided train of thought she has imbedded in her mind.

Likewise, she os like most peopel who thinks a Chruch needs ot update. She beleives that the will of society is somehow paramount, theirfore, if society accepts Homosxuality, or the idea that SZex before marriage with casual partners arent bad,then the CHurch shoudl adapt tot he times and likewise teach the new morality as dictated by society. In a perverse way, thi si the reverse of thr truth. Religion teaches us morality, so that society can execute that morality. But these days, peopl think society dictates mroality, and the duty of the CHruch is to teach the morality of the day and age as society demands. They want a Chruch that will tell them precicely what they wish to hear, and that agrees with curent norms and standards, this way thy can feel free of guilt and sin ( Uf they dotn consider sin an outdated concpt) and likewise attmeop to pass themselves off as religiouys, while makign the will of God contengent on popularity and social desires.

I have seen it a number of times, and it uxually has a very basic root, as do most things. She wishes to lead a secular life, and assumes that the CHurch needs ti update to support her decision in leadign that life.

If the Churhc refuses to call her way the best, or calls anyhtign she does sin, then the Chruch is outdated.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 09, 2004.

"Her desire to be "open-minded" is good"

Yes this is true, but Jesus would tell her to open her heart not her mind.

She tells me that she is catholic so she has a right to criticize the church. I think that she isn't really catholic if she doesn't go to church or partake in the holy sacraments. She is a catholic by name only.

She also says that her parents taught her to keep an open mind about everything. She believes that she is well rounded in both catholic and Anglican teachings. I really feel sorry for her.

oh well.. I will just be patient and see how everything plays out.

-- kev (magiccarpetride_@hotmail.com), February 09, 2004.

Yes people don't like to be told that what they are doing is wrong. They don't want to feel bad about the choices they make. The concept is Sin is something that most people run away from. For a catholic, we know that Sin is not something that we have to worry about. Jesus died for us so that we would not have to live our lives worrying about sin. The message of the catholic church is one of forgiveness, not sin. Unfortunately, people don't care to understand this they only see the bad and focus on semantics.

-- kev (magiccarpetride_@hotmail.com), February 09, 2004.

one last question for everyone. Is there a good catholic book written by a woman that I could give her? I think she needs a catholic female perspective on things. such a book would be easy for her to swallow.

-- kev (magiccarpetride_@hotmail.com), February 09, 2004.

Laurent LUG,

thank you for making what god does not want for me very clear. After all you are a non-believer.

-- kev (magiccarpetride_@hotmail.com), February 09, 2004.

kev,

I hope that you are not endangering yourself by intimately associating with a so-called "Catholic" woman. There are DEVOUT Catholic women available if indeed you are called by God to enter into marriage.

Kimberly Hahn wrote a book about her conversion from Presbyterianism to Catholicism called, "Rome Sweet Home."

God bless you.

-- Pete (p_mccormick@yahoo.com), February 09, 2004.

Laurent LUG, thank you for making what god does not want for me very clear. After all you are a non-believer.

-- kev (magiccarpetride_@hotmail.com), February 09, 2004.

You're saying .... ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), February 09, 2004.

You do realize how rediculous you sound, don't you? You're goign to end a relationship over a book?

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), February 09, 2004.

Jmj

Kev, you were advised to read the "Baltimore Catechism" [BC] (which, you were told, "reflects the constant teaching of the Church"), and you were given a link to the part of that catechism that deals with mixed marriages.

Having looked over that part of the BC, I have discovered that it is very unwise for anyone to advise the reading ONLY of that catechism. At this point in Church history (more than 100 years after the BC was written), I believe that it would be better for people to stop reading the BC entirely -- or, if they cannot resist reading it, to make sure that they read the related sections in the new (1997) "Catechism of the Catholic Church" [CCC] also.

The reasons for my saying this are the following, most of which are discoveries I just made today:
1. that the BC, as a local (American) catechism written by perhaps 100 bishops, is not absolutely guaranteed to be free from doctrinal error. [I believe that, by contrast, the CCC, as a universal catechism (written by the world's 4,000+ bishops and approved by the pope), does not err at all in teaching faith and morality.]
2. that the BC relays teachings in a relatively "deficient" way, as seen at this point in time -- i.e., not reflecting the full development of doctrine that now exists. Thus it is not accurate to say that the BC "reflects the constant teaching of the Church." Not only that, but the BC reflects a heck of a lot more than just "teachings" -- adding in some theological opinions and a great deal of disciplinary rules.
3. that the BC reflects an antiquated and unjustly unfriendly (even polemical) attitude toward non-Catholics, no longer present in orthodox Catholic discourse and documents today.
4. that the BC contains various now obsolete disciplinary comments that can badly mislead unaware Catholics today.

I don't have enough time to be exhaustive in explaining what I mean about each of the above points, but I will try to be illustrative now by quoting from the BC and adding a quick word or two in brackets after the quotations:

----- "... such [mixed] marriages generally lead to indifference, loss of faith, and to the neglect of the religious education of the children." [The words "generally lead" do not reflect the "mind of the Church" today -- and were probably an unjustifiable error (hyperbole) even when originally written.]

----- "The Church permits [mixed marriages] by dispensation only under certain conditions and for urgent reasons; chiefly to prevent a greater evil." [The words "for urgent reasons" do not reflect current discipline. The words "to prevent a greater evil" do not reflect the "mind of the Church" today.]

----- "The conditions upon which the Church will permit a Catholic to marry one who is not a Catholic [include]: ... (2) That the Catholic shall try by teaching and good example to lead the one who is not a Catholic to embrace the true faith; (3) That all the children born of the marriage shall be brought up in the Catholic religion." [Today, the Catholic partner does not have to promise to fulfill condition 2, and neither partner has to promise to fulfill condition 3 (though the Catholic must promise to fulfill a modified version of condition 3).]

----- "Catholics who marry before a Protestant minister incur excommunication ..." [Not only is this statement about excommunication never true today, but there are cases in which bishops grant Catholics permission to exchange vows before non-Catholic clergy. (Imagine someone reading only the BC and coming away with this seriously incorrect idea today.)]

----- "The Church shows its displeasure at mixed marriages by the coldness with which it sanctions them, prohibiting all religious ceremony at them by forbidding the priest to use any sacred vestments, holy water or blessing of the ring at such marriages; by prohibiting them also from taking place in the Church or even in the sacristy." [Horribly obsolete in terms of discipline and polemical attitude. I feel sorry for a person who is so misguided as to advise a Catholic to read only this deficient material, without informing the Catholic that the Church's rules, words, and attitudes are very different now.]

----- [etc., etc. I'm forced to stop by time constraints.]

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 09, 2004.

Anti bush, I am not going to end my relationship with her over a book. I am perfectly happy accepting her for who she is. The problem is that she is having a hard time accepting me for what I belive in - which is far from having an open mind as she claims. I am not trying to change what she beives in. People make their own choices in life and I wouldn't want to change that. I just feel that her understanding of what I belive in is corrupted by modern interpretation of catholic teachings. I want her to fully understand what I belive in from a true catholic source, and then, if she doesn't respect me or can't accept what I belive in. I'm fine with that. I will move on and find someone who truly can accept me for who I am.

-- kev (magiccarpetride_@hotmail.com), February 09, 2004.

Shalom aleichem, Brother Anti.

I say kev is doing the right thing by leaving. Even if you don't require your mate to believe as you believe, she must at least respect your beliefs.

Cut your losses and run, kev.

-- J Biscuits (thefilthohgodthefilth@yahoo.com), February 09, 2004.

----- "The conditions upon which the Church will permit a Catholic to marry one who is not a Catholic [include]: ... (2) That the Catholic shall try by teaching and good example to lead the one who is not a Catholic to embrace the true faith; (3) That all the children born of the marriage shall be brought up in the Catholic religion." [Today, the Catholic partner does not have to promise to fulfill condition 2, and neither partner has to promise to fulfill condition 3 (though the Catholic must promise to fulfill a modified version of condition 3).]

And what if they marry , get kids and don't let baptizing their kids or even leave church/religion ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), February 09, 2004.

Kev:

First, I think she is confused. Here are my definitions of an open mind and a foolish mind.

Open minds accept the truth no matter where it comes from.

Foolish minds accept anything.

I also find that alot of people think that being accepting means that anybody's opinion is okay. It is not. There is no 'right to your own opinion' in matters of fact. If I were to proceed int his relationship I would start with the most simple of realities: the existance of truth.

Of course, I wouldn't continue in this relationship. Sorry to say, but I agree with the cut and run people. In the end, if you cannot agree on matters of religion, or worse yet not even talk about them, then the relationship is doomed. If your faith is important to you, then you are not going to be able to live as if it doesn't matter. Think about your kids, she may be able to say you are free to be a Catholic, but what about your kids? Will she be able to let you raise them to believe things like, "A felmale preisthood is an affront to the dignity of women"? Of course not. I know that you are not thinking of kids but you should be. What is the point of dating if it is not going anywhere?

One other thing. From the points you said that you said to her in the argument, I think you might need to brush up on what your faith teaches as well. I don't mean to sound all high and knowing or anything (I hope I don't come off that way) but you do make some mistakes that are out of sline with the Catholic faith. And, you owe it to yourself to clear it up. (I'm not concerned with doing that in this thread, just pointing out that it should be done.)

Dano

-- Dan Garon (boethius61@yahoo.com), February 09, 2004.

"At this point in Church history (more than 100 years after the BC was written), I believe that it would be better for people to stop reading the BC [Baltimore Catechism] entirely --"

This cannot possibly be correct.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 09, 2004.

Dano,

I know what I told her was very simplistic and that it doesn't fully account for the teachings of my own faith. I thought however, that she wouldn't understand or respect anything else at this point. I had to make what I beleive in seem simple enough for her to respect it. You are correct that i need to read up on my own faith. I know this. It is because of it that I can't defend the church or its teachings the way i want to.

-- kev (magiccarpetride_@hotmail.com)), February 09, 2004.

Hey Kev,

My advice is to tell her your concerns in a sincere, compassionate manner. Tell her that you want to only date (and thus consider marrying) someone who shares your faith in the Catholic Church. If she does not decide at that point to change and return to being a faithful Catholic, I think you should leave the relationship.

I believe it is very important for spouses to share beliefs, due to a personal experience with my parents' different beliefs (Protestant & Catholic). It creates a lot of tension and hostility in the home, and I feel torn between them. I do not believe there is such thing (in practical application) in peacefully respecting the beliefs of one's spouse - it just doesn't work. However, as my parents are already married, they are committed to making it work. Please do not put yourself in this situation. Look at the example of your girlfriends' parents. She was raised in a divided home, and perhaps as a result, she subconsciously believes that it doesn't matter what church one belongs to. Additionally, her mother seems to be subversively pitting her daughter against Catholicism, and thus against her father's beliefs. Please do not subject your (future) children to the same kind of environment.

I realize that the Catholic Church permits members to marry non- Catholics. However, I think that would be a very dangerous move. Read what Paul has to say in 2 Cor 6 (KJV), that many Protestants use to outrule marriage to non-Christians altogether:

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?

God bless and I hope you make the right decision. Commit this matter to prayer.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 09, 2004.

Hi Kev,

I just thought I would put in my 2 cents. The most important thing I would recommend is that you absolutely do not get involved in a sexual relationship with this woman. It would be a sin obviously but would also be very worrisome as it could leave you with a feeling of obligation that would further complicate things. If you are good about avoiding a sexual relationship then it is possible for you to learn more about this young lady over time.

As a Catholic, you should be looking at every date as a potential spouse. I am a protestant until April, but thats the way I felt in my youth. I found that after a few weeks (and in many cases one date) I was able to rule out women as potential spouses. Until I met my wife, I never dated a woman for longer than a few months. After six weeks of dating my wife I knew we would wed. I think you should consider any woman in this fashion and if they are not compatable based on whatever criteria (and religious faith is a BIGGIE) you should respectfully thank them for their time and say bye.

-- David F (dqf@cox.net), February 09, 2004.

Here, Here! David F.!

Dano

-- Dan Garon (boethius61@yahoo.com), February 09, 2004.

Kev- Your girlfriend's believing she needs to be a good person actually sounds pretty Catholic, not that she doesn't need more. Sounds like she has issues. If you decide to hang in there with her, forcing the issue won't help. Let your faith be an example for her.

-- Mark Advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), February 09, 2004.

Hi Kev,

Your Catholicism is important to you. If your girlfriend will not respect your beliefs and constantly argues about them, then you probably should end the relationship.

Mixed marriages can work, but the other spouse must at the very least not interfere with your Catholic beliefs and your wish to bring up any children (if you marry) Catholic.

As to how "mixed" the marriage can be and still be a good marriage, it really depends upon the denomination. Catholics and Anglicans, or Catholics and Episcopalians-- really there is not that much difference in the grand scheme of things--not all Anglicans and Episcopalians hold with divorce and women priests, etc. As you go on down the line there are more and more differences which need to be considered.

I'll be thinking of you.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 09, 2004.

At this point in Church history (more than 100 years after the BC was written), I believe that it would be better for people to stop reading the BC [Baltimore Catechism] entirely --"

Wrong.

I can't imagine why anyone who had others' spiritual well being in mind would attempt to mislead souls in this manner. If you ignore what the Baltimore Catechism says, you do so, IMO, at your own peril. It's the same as others in this forum who scoff at things like Fatima, the Rosary, the Brown Scapular, etc. They wave an arrogant hand & roll their eyes. "Private revelation," they say, as if it's to be dismissed by any "enlightened" Catholic who does not wish to live in the Middle Ages any longer.

Stunningly, the same people, and they know who they are, jump in with both feet when it comes to charismania, demonic activity being passed off as Divine in origin (i.e. Medjugorge & Garabandal), Zlatko Sudac, and all the rest of the garbage foisted on gullible, ignorant souls with their eyes closed to the Church's sacred Tradition, but their checkbooks open to any snake oil salesman disguised as a Catholic who happens to be passing through town.

Don't take my word for it, though, on the continual value of previous catechisms, which have nourished and guided Catholics for generations. Let's see what the infallible USCCB has to say:

Question and Answers on the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Reverend John Pollard Staff, Bishops' Committee on the Catechism

Usccb link

12. Is the new Catechism intended to replace other catechetical documents of the Church?

No. The new Catechism is intended to stand beside the other catechetical documents such as, Catechesi Tradendae, Evangelii Nuntiandi, The General Catechetical Directory and the catechetical documents of episcopal conferences. These documents create part of the context in which the new Catechism is received and mediated to the particular circumstances of the local or national Church. The new Catechism is intended to be a resource for the continuing renewal of catechesis and the development of future catechetical materials.

Ambiguous? Open to 10 different interpretations? Sure. What'd you expect? Still, it's not hard to understand that the New Catechism is not intended to relegate the Baltimore Catechism to the dustbin of history.

You can ignore what the Baltimore Catechism says, I suppose. You can also delude yourself into thinking that the Rosary & Scapular are medieval good-luck charms. You do so, however, at your own peril; and if you think you can save your soul with such an attitude, good luck.

-- jake (j@k.e), February 09, 2004.

Jmj

Here is "yours truly," allegedly being quoted by two people since my last post:
"At this point in Church history (more than 100 years after the BC was written), I believe that it would be better for people to stop reading the BC [Baltimore Catechism] entirely --"

Ripping the above words out of context, without providing the remainder of the sentence, is a crime and sin of dishonesty -- intended to demean me and damage my name. For this, the two misquoting criminals deserve to be permanently banned from the forum. (Of course, they deserved the same penalty for countless previous offenses -- but unfortunately escaped banning, so I am not holding my breath this time.)

The full sentence that I wrote allows for the continued reading of the "Baltimore Catechism" in our time, as long as it is done in conjunction with reading related portions of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This is absolutely necessary for at least three reasons: to obtain a clearer and fuller understanding of doctrine, to understand that the BC's polemicism is not to be imitated, and to learn of the many ways in which disciplines mentioned in the BC are obsolete. [In fact, for the last item, one may also have to go to other sources, such as Canon Law and liturgical documents, since the CCC properly focuses on doctrine, rather than get into a lot of discipline (which is always subject to change).]

May God bless the decent people reading this thread, and may he have mercy on the ne'er-do-wells.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), February 10, 2004.

"The full sentence that I wrote allows for the continued reading of the "Baltimore Catechism" in our time, as long as it is done in conjunction with reading related portions of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This is absolutely necessary for at least three reasons: to obtain a clearer and fuller understanding of doctrine..."

The Church has never told us such a thing. You have said this, but the Church has not said this.

We are not criminals.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 10, 2004.

"The Church has never told us such a thing. You have said this, but the Church has not said this. We are not criminals."

I have said it, and the Church need not say it explicitly. What I have said is obvious to any orthodox Catholic who has read the CCC.

The evil-doers who intentionally misquoted me (by taking some of my words out of context) may not be "criminals" before a secular court, but they are "moral criminals" who will be punished by God in the next world -- all the more harshly if the moderators fail to come through in this world.

JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), February 11, 2004.

We're winning.

-- jake (j@k.e), February 11, 2004.

I meant to post that in the "Rosary" thread. Sorry.

-- jake (j@k.e), February 11, 2004.

"I have said it, and the Church need not say it explicitly."

But you and I are equals, John. I disagree with what you say. If the Church has not said what you say explicitly, then I claim equal credibility. Neither has the Church said it implicitly.

"What I have said is obvious to any orthodox Catholic who has read the CCC."

It's not obvious, nor is it implicit in anything the magisterium has said, nor is it explicit. You may like it to be the case or think that it might be the case, but I see no evidence for the discouragement by the Church of reading the Baltimore Catechism.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 11, 2004.

Jake, if you wish to post to the correct thread, I will delete any references here if you like?

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), February 12, 2004.

Well, as someone who is married to a man who is very confused spiritually, I would advise you to find a woman who shares your faith. BUT if you really feel that she would make a great wife and mother, than this may be something you can ovecome.

I am sad that my husband doesn't believe the way I do, but I love him. He is one of the best men I've ever known, and he is a fabulous husband -- and I know he will be a fabulous father. He attends Mass with me, even though he'd rather not. He doesn't mind that I use NFP, although he'd rather not. And he has agreed that our children will be raised Catholic. I pray every day for his conversion.

And while there are times when I wish I had married a Catholic man, I am very thankful for the wonderful man I did marry.

However, I should add that my husband is NOT anti-Catholic (which the book "The Da Vinci Code" is). There is a big difference between someone who doesn't believe in Catholicism and someone who willingly reads books that disparage it.

I say...think about it, pray about it and talk to her about it.

-- AVC (littleflower1976@yahoo.com), February 12, 2004.

well I just ended the relationship. And I am sure I made the correct choice. Everyone else has told me I did the right thing

-- kev (magiccarpetride_@hotmail.com), February 12, 2004.

I'm proud of you, Kevin, for standing up for what's right and seeking cousel rather than settling for less than God's best.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), February 12, 2004.

Thanks,

I made the choice to send her an email so that she could clearly ready the things that I wanted. Now, she wasn't to happy with the fact that I did it via email, but I'm glad that I did it that way. We ended up having a shouting match on msn over it. I told her flat out about everything I thought and I stayed true to myself and who I am. I'm glad it wasn't in person because I would of shouted at her and became very enraged. My low angry voice would of made her cry.

In addtion to some rather personal things I told her, I added this to the end of the email I sent her.

Now, for the sake of being open and very clear, these are the things I know that I want in a woman.

What do I like in a woman you ask?

I like a woman who is happy as a nurturer

I like a woman who likes being a woman and doesn’t resent men or worry about the transient inequalities of society.

I like a woman who knows how to be happy without the aid of someone else. (no, i'm not talking about masturbation here) :P

I like a woman who defends her man and shows respect for him when he is not around.

I like a woman that wants her man to be a provider, and at the same time motivate him to be a stronger one.

I like a woman that can calmly debate an issue, and not take things personally. A debate is good for the mind and it shouldn’t be taken personally. People that take debates personally show a level insecurity in their own reality.

I like a woman that knows I can’t read her mind and isn’t afraid to tell me what she likes. For example, if she wants to come over to my place and visit me she will just call and come over on a whim.

I like a woman that is Catholic and feels good about it. It would be great to find a woman that goes to church because she wants to and not because she thinks she has to. This would be most impressive. I truly understand and agree with much of what the Church teaches in regards to morality, marriage, pro life, etc. If these views are too much for my girl to handle, then I can’t do much about it. I need to stay true to what I believe. I need my girl to accept that believe in something different. If she wants to fully understand what I believe in then I would suggest the book “The Faith Explained” by Leo Trese.

I like a woman that believes in equally important roles in a relationship, not necessarily roles that are completely the same. There is after all, for example, no substitute for a mother in a family unit. There are exceptions to every rule, but for the most part women are natural nurturers, and men are natural providers. I want a woman who understands this and is happy with it.

I like a woman that realizes that love is all about letting your guard down and mutually trusting the other person

I like a woman that is willing to believe in me. This for me is the most important thing between two people. Faith in each other is very important.

I like a woman that doesn’t think in terms of “the relationship”. She only thinks about her man and how she can please him, just as I would only think about her and how to please her.

I like a woman that doesn’t have to be a housewife. I may not always be able to support her. I will try my best, but society doesn’t allow for that anymore.

I like a woman that appreciates wisdom more than intelligence. Knowledge is useless without the wisdom to use it.

I like a woman that goes with how she feels and doesn’t read articles about ‘relationships’ or play stupid games.

As for what I think love is:

Love is patient and kind; it is not jealous or conceited or proud; love is not ill-mannered or selfish or irritable; love does not keep a record of wrongs; love is not happy with evil, but love is happy with the truth. Love never gives up; and its faith, hope and patience never fail.

-- kev (magiccarpetride_@hotmail.com), February 12, 2004.

Hi Kev,

I hope you don't mind a few comments...

"I like a woman that doesn’t have to be a housewife. I may not always be able to support her. I will try my best, but society doesn’t allow for that anymore."

It seems that you might not be ready for marriage financially. Our present economy doesn't pay most men a living wage. It is a problem that men should consider before they get married. Due to pregnancy, childcare and the inherent roles/characterists of women, a man should not expect his wife to support him. Maybe you should focus on establishing your career, eliminating debts, buying a house, etc. before asking someone to marry you. In Ireland men traditionally married younger women later in life when they were established or inherited the farm.

St. Joseph, pray for us.
FGC

-- FGC (FGCC4@yahoo.com), February 13, 2004.