Hi everyone!

I'm in Nicaragua now on an exchange program, and learning a lot.

I just found out that people here are expected to pay 50 cordobas (roughly six dollars American, and the average day's wages) for every baptism. Catechesis and missionary work doesn't help if the people don't have the money to pay for their child, or children, to be baptised! First Confession, First Communion and Confirmation all cost even more, because of the training that is generally required.

The majority of people here are Catholics, at least culturally, but there is a big shift towards the Evangelical faiths just because it is cheaper to say a salvation prayer and believe in the Bible than it is to receive all the sacraments. Please, pray for everyone in this situation; I'm doing research to see if there are any charities set up to assist needy families in the spiritual care of their children.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), March 06, 2004

Answers

Hello Catherine Ann,

First, I ask God's blessings for you in your work in Nicaragua.

Why are the poeple expected to pay for baptism? That doesn't sound right to me. I know donations are accepted, but seems to me to be an abuse if they are being "charged" for baptism. Maybe I misunderstand.

Are you saying that they must pay for the classes? Even that doesn't sound right. How can anyone deprive them of the sacraments based on money? Please explain further if I am misunderstanding the situation.

Either way, I will pray for our brothers and sisters there.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), March 06, 2004.

Your baptism is not for sale; there's no 'payment''. What the faithful are expected to give is a stipend; the cost of living for a pastor and his Church.

In the 1st epistle to the Corinthians, Paul tries to make them understand their obligation to supply for the needs of the clergy.

''My defense against those who question me is this: Have we not a right to eat and to drink?'' (Chpt 9:3) and later, ''What soldier ever serves at his own expense? Who plants a vinyard and does not eat of its fruit? Who feeds the flock and does not eat of the milk of the flock? --Do I speak these things on human authority? For he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes, in hope of partaking of the fruits. If we have sown for you spiritual things, is it a great matter if we reap from you carnal things?'' --Later, ''The Lord directed that those who preach the gospel should have their living from the gospel.'' (1 Cor 9: verses :3,4-- :7,8-- :10-11, :14) This is a very instructive chapter regarding the ''PRICE'' we must pay for the great graces the Church brings us. And the obligation we share, preserving for all the blessings of an unselfish clergy. Because priests cannot baptise our children and then punch a clock later that day so they can buy food and clothing for themselves. WE have responsibility, and that's why our stipend and every contribution must be given cheerfully. Not as if a priest were ''charging money'' for the sacrament. That's petty and selfish to suggest of men who have sacrificed everything in this life for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 06, 2004.

This is about as far-fetched as it gets. It's like saying the Church charges to have masses said. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is something amiss here.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), March 06, 2004.

You might try writing your local bishop. If that doesn't work, Your Papal Nuncio. And if that doesn't work - the Vatican. Someone will listen.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), March 06, 2004.

Why should she? Is something wrong, that a Papal Nunzio should worry about the ordinary stipend asked of our faithful? Now the Church has to apologise because priests need stipends?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 06, 2004.

Hi Eugene,

I agree with you that "WE have responsibility, and that's why our stipend and every contribution must be given cheerfully", but doesn't the salary come from the diocesen pot of money or from the regular voluntary donations of the faithful as a whole? The poor should be receiving support from the Church, not providing money for stipends. They need to feed their families first.

We were never asked to pay a stipend as a requirement for baptism, or marriage, or confirmation, though we did donate cheerfully. The Church doesn't withold sacraments because the recipient can't help support the minister of the sacraments financially. I'm just going off of my personal experience.

Anybody else hear of such a thing, whether it is a stipend, or not?

To me, the problem seems to be payment of money as a prerequisite to administering the sacraments. Maybe I'm reading too much into the post.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), March 06, 2004.

Paying a few dollars is part of every day life. Its not like Catherine said they were turned away if they couldn't afford to pay. She said it was the "expected" amount.

When one has a holy Mass celebrated for the repose of soul[s] it says right on envelope the expected amount of stipend at some places.

It cost a lot more than that if they were blessed enough to send the child to Catholic schools.

-- (David@excite.com), March 06, 2004.

Paying a few dollars is part of every day life. Its not like Catherine said they were turned away if they couldn't afford to pay. She said it was the "expected" amount.

That's an important distinction. I didn't read it that way until you pointed it out. Thanks David.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), March 07, 2004.

Still, doesn't a full day's wages sound like a lot?

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), March 07, 2004.

"Still, doesn't a full days wage seem like a lot.."

No. How many of those (8 dollars) do you think it takes to train a seminarian? I would guess that the Catholic Church is loosing big time money. :-)

But, lets be thankful that the Sacraments are there for only 8 bucks a piece. Many good Catholics have been "slaughtered" so that 8 bucks (or a days wages) is all a donation that is required.

May all Gods saints in Heaven pray for us.

-- - (David@excite.com), March 07, 2004.

For most American Catholics, 8 bucks is nothing, but for the average Nicaraguan, it's a whole lot. This brings home the reason why we all have to be generous with the treasures God gives us. We are ALL part of the Body of Christ. How much will those of us who are stingy with Christ's gifts have to answer for?

I still question whether payment of money is a requirement for the sacraments. If it is, then there has to be something wrong. Everyone should have access to the sacraments, whatever their financial lot in life.

I have the feeling I'm missing something here.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), March 07, 2004.

The goal isn't to make money or even break even, it's to save souls.

I do understand that to do this, a certain amount of physical support is required. God provides, and it may be through those of us who have more that He does this.

I'm not trying to argue any points here. It just bothers me that, if what Catherine says is true (the way I understand it), then there seems to be an injustice in which a poor man must have wait to baptise his kid until he can save up a day's wages. I'm sure this same guy is struggling everyday to keep his family alive.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), March 07, 2004.

" It just bothers me that, if what Catherine says is true(The way I understand it)

Andy , Catherine doesn't understand it fully yet! She said she is still researching this. I think you are reading to much into this. And I didn't read anything about "struggling to keep family alive". Everyone works hard to take care of their family. This is life!

If they charge a days wages than they must feel that people can afford to pay it. The priest has to eat. Where is his food going to come from? Who is going to pay his rent?

-- - (David@excite.com), March 07, 2004.

Dear Andy: Let's see if after reading the epistle of Saint Paul I cited above, (1 Cor Ch 9) and considering again what it means to give up everything-- We should question a stipend for the ones who have denied themselves to serve God. Those who feel put upon have pitiable incomes, it's true. But if a woman can carry her baby in the womb nine months and then give birth; then why can't she and the relatives (Godparents particularly) save up during nine months for the necessary obligation to their Church?

I'm sure not many Nicaraguans go without entertainment and liquor. I happen to know some Nicaraguan immigrants here in Solano Cty, CA. They love to party! Especially for baptisms. You ought to see the guests consume beer and mixed drinks. (I've done so, Lol!) They do so in their country, don't worry.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 07, 2004.

Hi David and Eugene,

I understand what you guys are saying. Now that I look at it, I am reading something into the original post that may not be there. I'll withold any further comments until I get the whole story. Thanks for your comments.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), March 07, 2004.

Hi, Rod

I will send you a money order for 12 dollars(50 cordobas) if you get both of your children baptised. Reading this thread made me rember you and the thread you started some time back. Don't let 2004 slip away with out doing this.

If something would happen to one of your children(God forbid) you would be tormented every second of every day. Don't put yourself and your child in a postion for this to happen. Life can end anyday for anyone of us. This life is the real dance Rod.

May God bless your children and keep them safe and healthy.

-- - (David@excite.com), March 08, 2004.

Hey, I didn't mean to get everyone so upset.

To clarify the situation: I heard that a particular group of Catholic missionaries was working among the children here, teaching them about the Sacraments, and encouraging them to become active members of the Church. They were approached by the parents of the children, who said that the missionaries were given the children ideas, and that they could not afford to have them baptized or confirmed.

I know that stipends are valid and indeed necessary. I'm not trying to be petty or selfish. However, I do think that there is more than enough money in the pockets of Catholics worldwide to take care of the parishes here in Nicaragua, where people actually are struggling to stay alive!

Sure, the people can party all they want; it's easier to forget that you have no running water or electricity if you are laughing with your neighbours. The fact is, many people don't even have jobs, and have no way to get them. It's easy to say that a day's wages can be saved up quickly, but if no one in your community has the money to spend, then anything you make or any service you perform won't get you closer to paying your dues to your parish.

If you guys don't want to pray for the monetary standing of the Church in Nicaragua, at least pray for the individual men and women who have no jobs.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), March 09, 2004.

There are always going to be ''Rice Christians'' Catherine Ann. You bet we must pray for them; because they leave us no choice. You've judged them well, they ''shift towards the Evangelical faiths just because it is cheaper to say a salvation prayer and believe in the Bible than it is to receive all the sacraments.''

I have bad news; for evangelicals as well as for the natives. There is NO ''salvation prayer''. They exchange Gold for Silver. Actually, less; TIN.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 09, 2004.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make - these are immortal souls in grave danger of damnation. I think that the Catholic Church worldwide should support the Nicaraguan parishes in order to make it as easy as possible for the people here to enter the Church.

I'm trying my best, but, hey, I'm an unemployed student half-way through university. I guess it is easier just to blame the people for their ignorance and poverty.

-- Catherine Ann (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), March 10, 2004.

With all due respect for you Catherine; and your good heart: It is lack of faith I'm reproaching. I see what you're facing; and we can't deny something should be done to help.

But don't close your eyes to the biggest problem. It isn't always poverty. Social liberalism is usually quick to take the blame for the sins of our neighbors; to the point of rationalizing the obvious. Sin exists; and low or ebbing spirituality is caused by our own sins and refusal of grace. You're seeing a symptom in these places. The old axiom couldn't be truer today; God helps those who help themselves.

I join with you in hope that our clergy will sacrifice even what little is given them by unhappy sinners. They ought to cut back on stipends for the neediest. But that isn't at the root of the problem, I suspect. We must pray that God will give GRACE where it's most needed. Your prayers count; don't fail to ask Our Lord for His mercy on the good people of South America. Pray for the Catholic Church; I know we all must.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 10, 2004.

Catherine Ann,

"I heard..."

This is heresy! Don't believe everything you hear. You are young and probably believe most of what you will be told because you want to. This is why your there. I know the poverty you see blows your mind.

But the world doesn't operate like you want. The Catholic Church gives more to charity than any organation in the world. And have you shown anything that says people are turned away if they don't have the money?

We have two collections a lot in my Church. Maybe you want us to have a third? How much did your plane ticket cost? Divide that by the 6 a Sacrament your complaining about. If the flight was 1000 then this means that the money could of spent on 166 Sacraments instead of being un-employed! Come home and work and send over $100 wk. this will be[over] 16 Sacraments a week.

-- - (David@excite.com), March 11, 2004.

Please don't mislead Catherine David. Her alarms are not heresy.

That's way over the top. Catherine's related mere anecdotal accounts. She can't understand these problems right now. For this, all that can be said is she's easily distressed. She is much more likely to ''believe'' what her eyes tell her than what we say. Just appeal to her faith in Our Lord, and tell her to carry on. You can't reduce her fears to a question of funds. That's precisely what the Church teaches me & you is wrong with this world.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 11, 2004.

Gene,

Ok, Catherine is "easily distressed" like you said. How do you know this? What makes you think that she is so "easily distressed"?

"Please don't mislead Catherine David. Her alarms are not heresy"

Gino, do you know what "heresy" means? Are you denying that when someone posts, " .I heard....." that this is "heresy"? Please answer with a yes or no Gene.

Bingo Dawg!

-- - (David@excite.com), March 11, 2004.

Uh-oh. I think that there is confusion between "heresy" and "hearsay." Catherine was not being accused of being a heretic. Rather she is being advised to avoid passing along "hearsay" evidence (which may be an inaccurate telling of events).

-- (Helping@Hand.com), March 11, 2004.

Oh-- I see. David meant HEARSAY. That's cool. Yes; hearsay isn't a ''heresy'', Catheriine. I wonder why Dave insists on or no? Is he my D.I.--?

He never meant to mislead. Bingo Cat.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 11, 2004.

Catherine said, I think that the Catholic Church worldwide should support the Nicaraguan parishes ...

In fact, we should help support the Church around the world! Whether what Catherine heard was true or not, we need to help out our brethren anyway we can. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that. I would add we need to help them support their families too. It's a universal Church and we need to do what we can to help out our brothers and sisters. For some, it's missionary work; for others, it's prayer; for others still, it's donating money or time. After all, almsgiving is a big part of Lent.

What we do to the least of our brothers...

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), March 11, 2004.