It's a variation of the old: Can God make a rock so big that even he cannot move it question. My favorite way of saying it is:

Can God create a puzzle so difficult even he cannot solve it?

(I like this one because it avoids many of the off-tangent arguments about rocks and brownies and other physical things and forces you to get right to the point of the argument).

It points out that the concept of "All-Powerful" is a paradoxical one, because there are many ways to set up an either/or scenario where two tasks cannot BOTH be completed.

Now, this is not proof that God does not exist, only that he cannot be "All-Powerful". It does not rule out an "Extremely Powerful God"

Still, Christians do not like to give up their notion of an "All-Powerful God", so they will get extremely metaphysical if they try to deal with this paradox.

I was actually taught in my Sunday School to regard this question as meaningless and discard it, which I found to be a very unsatisfying answer. At the very least, thinking about it can lead you to a better understanding of what paradoxes are and what they indicate in a system of belief.

Thoughts?

-- VOR (VOR123@hotmail.com), April 05, 2004

Answers

It's a variation of the old: Can God make a rock so big that even he cannot move it question. My favorite way of saying it is: Can God create a puzzle so difficult even he cannot solve it?

{This is a rather silly queatsion,as it negates reason. Can an author create a Charecter smarter than he is? He can imagien the person is smarter, but the person in his mind is still limited by what the auhtor actually knows.}-Zarove

(I like this one because it avoids many of the off-tangent arguments about rocks and brownies and other physical things and forces you to get right to the point of the argument).

{It also avoids what is meant by the term All powerful. Augustine answered this already when he said God can do all things that are within his nature and cannot do things which, by default woudl render him not God.}-Zarove

It points out that the concept of "All-Powerful" is a paradoxical one, because there are many ways to set up an either/or scenario where two tasks cannot BOTH be completed.

{That is why one can say the queatuon itsself is illegitimate, rather or not you are satisfied. See, Logic dictates that Gosd, by definitionm is all powerful. But we mean all powerful in the sence that he can do anyhtign he so desired. Not that he can outdo himself. Its less paradoxical, and the paradox you mention rests on a semantic.}-Zarove

Now, this is not proof that God does not exist, only that he cannot be "All-Powerful". It does not rule out an "Extremely Powerful God"

{Yes, throw in the disclaimer. I however suspect you are an atheist.Not even a cleaver one, though you think this is cleaver. I will elaborate the answser later. I am in a hurry right now.}-Zarove

Still, Christians do not like to give up their notion of an "All- Powerful God", so they will get extremely metaphysical if they try to deal with this paradox.

{Thanks for showing what we will do in advnace. You relaly arent intereste d in our answer, you alreayd know we cant answer it and will tell s what we where going to say, becaue you are ever so smart and can anticipate what we meager, simple minded Christaisn think.}- Zarove

I was actually taught in my Sunday School to regard this question as meaningless and discard it, which I found to be a very unsatisfying answer. At the very least, thinking about it can lead you to a better understanding of what paradoxes are and what they indicate in a system of belief.

{Not realy. As far as aradoxes go I have seen better in generalPhsyics. This "Paradox" relies entirely on a narrow minded definition of all pwoerful. Phsyicisys teach that the Universe explided, and htis force was possibely infinitely powerful. The infinitely powwrful force is similar to God. it can also be askedof the inifnitely powerful force can stop itsself form expanding. See, if its infinite, it must always expand, but it will eentually lock itsself.

Oh well...

This sin a paradox though. See, we mean by the term all Powerful that God can do anyhtign he so desires. Think of God as the author of a book. The Charecters, events, and limits of the world he creates is actually contaiend in his own thoughts.

Now, can the auhtor create a puzzle he cannot solve? Not really, as he can invent a slution. He canot come up with a safe he cant crack either, becaus he can always imagine the safe's combination and will always be right.

See, thats not relaly paradoxical. Thats just the nature of writing.

Nor is it paradoxical to God if we apply this same principle. You however are tryign t apply an ourside standard to God, which i absurd since God is the totality of al things. You cannot measure God by an outside force that is contained within God's wpower to begin with.bEFORE YOU SAY THIS IS METAPHYSICAL, ITS NOT. ITS A FACT.

Go on, try it, Try inventign a fictional Charecter smarter than you. You will always be able to outsmart him in the end.}

Thoughts?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 05, 2004.

"God is almighty because He can do and make anything which is good and non-contradictory. Thus, God cannot commit sin because He cannot contradict His infinite goodness. Nor can He violate the principle of non-contradiction which at the states that a thing cannot both be and not be at the same time." Rev. Lawrence G. Lovasik, S.V.D.

Just because God can't make a puzzle He can't solve, doesn't mean He isn't all-powereful, it just means He isn't contrdictory.

-- Sonya (johnsonya2003@hotmail.com), April 05, 2004.

Vor,

Zeno had a paradox too. If I remember right, it went something like this: you can't swim all the way across a pool before swimming half way. you can't swim to the end of the pool before swimming half way to then end, then half way to the remainder, etc. you'd *never* get to the end of the pool because you could never quit with smaller and smaller halves.

BUT, when calculus was invented, this could be solved quite easily. What seemed an insolvable paradox for 2000 years really was insolvable secondary only to ignorance. Even though they couldn't explain it, Greeks and everyone else could swim across a pool. Even though you can't understand it, God really can be all powerful. Some things are just beyond our current understanding, that doesn't make them false.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 05, 2004.

There is no paradox here at all. That God is all-powerful is a revealed truth. If there were a rock so large God could not lift it, that very inability would be de facto incompatible with His very nature as God. In other words, if "person X" could not lift a certain rock - or a certain planet - then by definition "person X" is not God, since God is all-powerful. Therefore this silly question really translates "can God create a situation wherein He is not God?". Obviously the answer is "no". Answering "no" to this question does not in any way limit or diminish God's power, but rather acknowledges the absolute and infinite nature of His power, inherent in His divine nature and identity. It is precisely because He IS all-powerful that He cannot be other than all-powerful.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 05, 2004.

Flawed example, a fictional character is by nature unreal and reality will always be greater than any illusion. Ask a question like: Can you have a child that is smarter than you? The answer is yes, that child is made of you and another person and able to surpass both of you.

-- VOR (VOR123@hotmail.com), April 05, 2004.

Vor,

Just so you don't waste your time, you aren't the first person to think they are a genius for being able to deny the existence of God. If you don't have faith -- that's up to you. Fine. No one can prove there IS a God to you, and obviously, you can't prove there is NOT a God to anyone.

If you have questions about our faith, ask away. If you just want to repeat the same thing that's been said many times before, don't bother. OTOH, if you ever ask yourself WHY the world is the way it is, and want to understand its creator the tiniest bit, come on back!

Frnak

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 06, 2004.

Flawed example, a fictional character is by nature unreal and reality will always be greater than any illusion. Ask a question like: Can you have a child that is smarter than you? The answer is yes, that child is made of you and another person and able to surpass both of you.

{Actually Vor, your line of reasonignis flawed.

1: Mine was no the only answer. You also seemed to ignore the whole " God doesn't contradict" bit. God canot create a situation where he is not God.

2: Mine isnt flawed. You are still assumign God is soemhow measured within the greater context of reality. Probelm is, God is the greatest context, and created reality.

Agauin, you are operating under the isiotic " God sint all powerful, but this doesnt rule out a relaly powerful God" idea which is belaboured in and of itsself. You, of course, claim CHristaisn will get metaphysical and can't answer this,a nd this is a cleaver, fool proof argment, btu tis not. No oen here has becoem metaphysical and we ar ebeign extremely practical.

In my "Flawed Example" I used a fictional CHarecter. You said reality is always greater than fiction. This, however, assumes their is a reality aside from God, and that God is trapped within its confines. You assume we are real, and that God cannot make us not real. Go is stuck with us.

We aren't ficitonal.

This makes relaity seperate form, and independant of, God. However, in Theological discussions, this is a msiatke, because when discussiong God, we must accept the concept of God as prsented. Chrisainity, Judaism, and Islam all agree that relaity is not Independant of God, and that we owe our existance to God. Tgheirfore the flaw in reasonign is your's, not mine.

You make the mistake that Reality and existance is soemhow seperate and independnat from God, which it is not.

We are to God as the fictional Charecter is to us.

We are not Children, whose existance is seperate form ourFather, and who can be Smarter than God, rather, we are Products, creations produced by the mind of God, produceed by hiws will and sustained through his efforts. Our entire existance is wholly dependant upon God. Unlike a child's is to their partent. }

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 06, 2004.

Augustine in his 'City of God', addressed the original question centuries ago, as did St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica. You may wish to do a bit of research.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 06, 2004.

Ok, so what you have basically done is to redefine "All-Powerful" to mean something other than "God can do anything", so that you can continue to use the term All-Powerful to describe God. I admit that this does remove the paradox, but I think it is cheating.

If I were to redefine the Term "Best in the Universe" to mean just average, I could claim to be the "Best in the Universe" at many things, and I would be correct, according to my definition.

To my mind, although you may use the term "All-Powerful" in a bastardized way, you actually only believe that God is "Very Powerful".

-- VOR (VOR123@hotmail.com), April 06, 2004.

You are saying that "All-Powerful" means "doing things that even violate non-contradiction(things cannot be and not be at the same)". This isn't the definition of "All-Powerful", it is the definition of someone arguing illogically. Your other argument is working for what we are trying to tell you, that we are like defining the best, average. Again this would be trying to say that something is and isn't at the same time, but see even you admit that things cannot violate non-contradiction. Therefore you are saying that we are violating this law and have given us example of non-contration (can't be best and average at the same time); yet you do not see that you are trying to do this very thing when we are trying to show you that you are doing this by saying that "All-Powerful" means creating a puzzle where He isn't God. You agree with us by arguing that best cannot be average, and that is what we are saying 'All-Powerful" can't be something contradicting it.

-- Sonya (johnsonya2003@hotmail.com), April 06, 2004.

Ok, so what you have basically done is to redefine "All-Powerful" to mean something other than "God can do anything", so that you can continue to use the term All-Powerful to describe God. I admit that this does remove the paradox, but I think it is cheating. If I were to redefine the Term "Best in the Universe" to mean just average, I could claim to be the "Best in the Universe" at many things, and I would be correct, according to my definition.

{We didn't redifine the term. That is a lie. We simpley clarified the ramificatiosn of the term. Aain, their is a difference. All Powerful means that he is capable of ding any thing, however, he is NOT capable of not havng the power to do all things. THAT is a logical contradiction.}-Zarove

To my mind, although you may use the term "All-Powerful" in a bastardized way, you actually only believe that God is "Very Powerful".

{Then your midn is feeble, as we ahv explained. All powerful means you can do all things, it does not however mean that you can both be capable of doing all things and not capable at the same time. You are redifining the definition of paradox to suit this flimsy argument that has been refuted already and blaming us for changing the definition of a word we didnt change the definiiton of a word to.

Also note, you failed to Address my correctiosn on your fallacy earlier. When i said that I did not make a logical error. The Allegory I presented explains the paradox nicely, and you said it was a false form of Logic. I explained how it was not. why did you ignore that?

I personally do not think you are here for open and hoenst discussion, you are here to present soemthign Chrisaisn cannot anser and bask in the glow of intellectual superiority. However, by ignorign the explanation, and tryign to find fault wih it without examination of it as even credible, you do the reverse.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 06, 2004.

"All-Powerful" does not mean "able to do anything". It means "not prevented from doing anything by lack of power". However, there may be reasons other than lack of power which prevent an all-powerful person from acting in certain ways. God, in spite of having infinite power, cannot act in ways which contradict other aspects of His divine nature. For example, He cannot learn, not because He lacks the power to learn, but because He already possesses infinite knowledge. Being all-knowing is inherent to His divine nature. He cannot do evil, not because He lacks the power to do it, but because He is all-good by His very nature.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 06, 2004.

The problem is in the premise of the argument. It's not as clever a "paradox" as you make it out to be.

Your premise states that an all powerful one can make something more powerful than it.

Therin lies the contradiction of your premise. All powerful means all powerful, no room for anything more powerful.

If you wish to make a meaningful philosophical argument, please do not throw absurd premises in for fun.

Otherwise I could say :

1. You are a genius,if you're a genius, you can prove that you are not a genius.

2. You are humble, if you are humble, then you admit you are not humble.

3. You always tell the truth. If you always tell the truth, you will admit all the lies you have spoken in your life.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), April 06, 2004.

I think of that "big rock" as being the same thing as "free will". God created free will, but He doesn't "lift" it. That very free will can be powerful enough to bring a soul to Christ, yet strong enough to deny Him. That's a "big rock".

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 07, 2004.