I don't like church myself, I got rid of it once, I didn't regret. Christians did have all these "witch hunts" and religious wars... wiccans did not. I actually find wicca to be quite interesting. When I told my mother I might want to become wiccan, she was like "Oh no, not satan worship" and I just laughed and explained her what it was all about. Besides the things like the crusades and the spanish inquisition.

-- Janey (gothgoddess363@yahoo.com), April 06, 2004

Answers

The Catholic Church had very few 'witch hunts', you might be thinking of the Protestants. Even during the Spanish Inquisition, witches were thought not to be of much trouble and were specifically not harmed. There is an interesting history book out on the Spanish Inquisition (by a non-Catholic) called: The Spanish Inquisition: A Historical Revision by Henry Kamen (Yale University Press), that is probably in your local library that explains all this.

However, all magick is considered a sin against religion in the Catholic Church and in violation of the 1st Commandment, for it is believed that in magick you are trying to control supernatural forces to do your own will, instead of allowing God to do His will.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 06, 2004.

I don't like church myself, I got rid of it once, I didn't regret.

{Why do you not like Curch, may I ask? }-Zarove

Christians did have all these "witch hunts" and religious wars... wiccans did not.

{Double Fallacy. Wicca is a new religion, and only cam einto existance in the 1950's, when a man Named Gerald Gardner invented it, based on now discredited soruces, Masonry, and the influence of Aleister Crowley and Anton LevVay. Also, Chrisainity did not have witch hunts, europe did. Unless you include a few Isolated iNcedents.

It is also interestign to note that their where fewer witch hunts in Chrisain Europe than in Pagan controle Europe. Contrary tto the ideal of Modern NeoPagans, the Pagans themselves etiehr revered Witches as preusts, nor did they keep them alive. Indeed, the Romans often killed suspected witches without the benefit of a trial.

As to religious wars, other than the Crusades, which are overused and not jusdtly looked upon, can you relaly name any religious wars in Christainity?}-Zarove

I actually find wicca to be quite interesting.

{I use to. I don't now. It gor old seeing things I knew where wrong, anti-Chrisyain bigotry ( Yes, Bigotry, a word I use often when looking at all the Hate SPeech agaisnt Christyains on Wiccan, NeoPagan, and "Skeptic" sites. ) and the lak of any self disipline or acocuntability. I also foudn the underlyign premise to be rather falsifiable. And lets not get ito the gods, and hwo they let you dfo what you want. I certianly am Glad I have friends that are better than these gods... my firends don let me do things that Hurt me.}- Zarove

When I told my mother I might want to become wiccan, she was like "Oh no, not satan worship" and I just laughed and explained her what it was all about.

{Nice. Did you knwo wicca actualy does Have Satanism as part of its origin? In te form of LevayanPhiloosphy. That aside, the reference toy our mother relaly makes no mention of a relevance to your posts point.}-Zarove

Besides the things like the crusades and the spanish inquisition.

{which ar eoverused Canards. Not only did not all Christains actually participarte in these events, and not all Chrisyaisn condoned the Inquesition ( Least of all Prrotestant Chrisains) the events where not relaly as bad as they appear when you read abothtem on wiccan sites. The Inquesition fr instance, was an attempot to hold the HCurc togather. Thus, popel who where not baptised where not arrested by the Inquesition. They where outside their pervieue. Also, the secular courts in the Kingdom of Spain where MUCH HARSHER on regular criminals, and h eprisons where much less livable. That may not negate the Inquesition, but tit does help to place it int proper historical context.

Likewise, the Crusades are NOW seen as an evil thing the Chrisyasn did to poor, defenceless peopel for he high crime of not beign Christain. we all Know Chrisyaisn ar evil, bloodthirsty controle freaks. Propbel is, it doesnt pan out that way.

he First Crusade was undertaken to prevent the Invasion of the Byzantine empire by the Mohammadans. ( The name given t the Islamic adherance of the day) These wher ento peaceful muslims picking aisieys and dancing harmlessly in th sun. They where killign Christaisn and Jews who lived in , or traveles to , Jerusalem. They where also conqurers in their own right, haivng occupied the Hly Land by force, and spreading into parts of europe, and lanning on invadign the Eatern empire, and take it as a possession. So, even though you may like to throw hisotry on Christaisn face, and claim beign a wiccan is better because at leats wicca didn't cause any wars, remember that wica couln't have caused wars as it is very young, and the wars yo use as oroof of how evil Chrisyaisn are are nothign more than shallow atempts to justify your own critisisms which have no real basis.}

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 06, 2004.

I was looking somewhere on the Web for some decent (read: from a Catholic perspective) information about Wicca. Well, I couldn't find any.

But I DID find this highly amusing series of articles written by a Wiccan. Janey, you might want to examine your ideas a little more.

God bless you, and bring you home to Christ.

-- anon (ymous@god.bless), April 06, 2004.

Janey- Are you OK with your Mom?

-- Mark Advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), April 06, 2004.

Janey,

Your decision as to which religion to practice should be based on truth, not on what interests you.

Evil and sin can be very alluring and interesting - just like watching horror movies. BUT, they lead to death - eternal death. So we as thinking people, need to exercise our God-given brains to reject the path of death and walk the path of life, even if it superficially seems less appealing. That's called using our Free Will. We can chose life or death, it's that simple.

Does being a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ lead to eternal life? Yes. Does being a Wiccan lead to eternal life? No, it leads to eternal Hell and damnation - yes, they are real.

Wicca will teach you all kinds of lies to lure you away from the truth and from life. Don't believe them. Following them will only lead to your death - that's the truth.

This is a serious decision, don't make it lightly.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), April 07, 2004.

wicca is so stupid, and is often practiced by women who feel alienated by mainstream society.

gee, i was snubbed for a kickball game in gym class--where do i sign up for scientology?

wicca shouldnt even BE a religion-- the earth and nature are an ecological thing, not a goddess.

-- jas (forgetit@yahoo.com), April 07, 2004.

When the Catholic/Christian church was in power, being excommunicated was basically a death sentence, as was refusing to convert upon being conquered. At the very least a person would be exiled. I'd say having to choose between conversion and death/exile is forcing the belief. At least Muslims allowed people to practice their religions and merely taxed them for it. These days, they do not have the power because the government keeps them in check. Even still, I cannot have a serious C/C friend even though I never tell them they shouldn't believe in it or try to convert them to my way of thinking. I simply state that I do not believe what they do and it ends up culminating in a rant that says: "What I believe has to be right, or I've wasted my life." This has happened to me 4 times with good friends who could not tolerate I did not believe as they did. Also, "witches" had nothing to do with paganism, they were usually women in agrarian societies who figured out how to do something men couldn't and attempted to use it to be independant, disrupting the social order of the time. "Witch hunts" were about killing non-believers when the church was in power, identifying them as the previous kind of witches.

-- It's really long, chances are it's yours also (Johnjinklehimerschmidt@thatsmyname2.com), April 07, 2004.

Mohammad himself is responsible for the massacure of thousands of Jews. Over the centuries Muslems have murdered countless millions of Jews. I wouldn't describe them as only 'taxing them a little'.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 07, 2004.

When the Catholic/Christian church was in power, being excommunicated was basically a death sentence, as was refusing to convert upon being conquered.

{At leats accordign to Propoganda. Of course all Chrisaisn are exaclty like Catholics, and of course cathlics are monsters. Sorry, I bought htis one for years, then I read real history books. Its one of the few tmes I faced cognitive dissonance. I actually beelived europe was subdued by the evil Cahtolic Church, and gnetle Pagans where slaughtered en masse. Now I know better. Pagans wherent killed upon beign Conquered by Christain Hordes, and most conversions in europe had no coersion. None had active coersion by the CHurch itsse;f as an entity. Also, the CHruch never held absolute power, as it is presumed. It is funny that peoel cant wrap their minds aound the idea of people becomign Chrisyain in large groups because they actually saw ,erit tot he be.leif system, and instead favour the notion of a conquering church.

But if you want ot hold this old torch up, please site HISTORICAL referneces. ( Note, hisotrical doesnt mean Pagan [pr[poganda, or anti- Chrisyain websites. You dnmt need to get info form Christain sites, but legitimate Histpry sites work.)

This is just another baseless acusation, made agaisnt the "Christain Church" which never existed. The massive monsyer that slaightered many.}-Zarove

At the very least a person would be exiled.

{Or not. Srry, but many excommunicants actually still lived in their own homes. This is a fairy tale, like the unjust crusades or the Inquesition being the worst force for killign Pagans evedr. But if I am wrong, prove me wrong with real Hisotry and not Anti- Xhristain Porpoganda that is sued to support your Pagansim. As it seems right now to be the case,y ou are slandering the CHristain religion as a whole just tp justify why you arent Christain.}-Zarove

I'd say having to choose between conversion and death/exile is forcing the belief.

{I would to. POity this actually didn't happen in treality. Its a Myuth that is beleived by the masses as a blakc mark on Chrisyainity, but in reality the events didnt play like you claim.}-Zarove

At least Muslims allowed people to practice their religions and merely taxed them for it.

{Yes, Muslims are at leats Better than Chrisains. Christains, when they took over, slaughtered all that oppsoed them, and all that didnt beleive...

everyone Knows Chrisyainity is evil. In fact, Chisyainity was worse than the Third riech. ( A real quote I have heard.)

Lets forget those pesque details about Mohamads Glorious clearign of the Kabaa, and how he slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Pagans. Lets also pretend all those CHristains and Jews he had his men rape, kill, torutre, or enslave wherent victims. Lets just say muslims have never killed anyone for practoiving another reigion.

Islam is better than Chrfisyainity, because Chrisyainity is pure evil and conquered nations and killed yo if yo idnt convert. Islam only taxed you, and wicca lets you be free. ( I somehow dpubt wicca woudl allow Chrisainity to continue if it ever gained power, because I have found most, though not all, wiccans to be massive Hypocrites, wanting their religion not to be spoken oill of, but speakign ill if Christainity to support their religious veiws.)}-Zarove

These days, they do not have the power because the government keeps them in check.

{Yes. If the Govenrment didnt keep Chrisyains in CHeck, they woudl be out slaughtering peiple. we all know how Dangerous Chrisyains are. Don't you think this could classifty as Hate Speech?}-Zarove

Even still, I cannot have a serious C/C friend even though I never tell them they shouldn't believe in it or try to convert them to my way of thinking.

{Maybe its because you insult their religious faith?}-Zarove

I simply state that I do not believe what they do and it ends up culminating in a rant that says: "What I believe has to be right, or I've wasted my life."

{I somehoe dont eel incliuned to take your word for it. Least of all when you spout propoganda. Like the fac tthat the Chrisyain Church slaughtered all who disagreed when it wa sin power, and how the only thing that prevents this sort of thing now is that its kept in Check.

Wicca is a better rleigion because its peaceful, whereas Christaisn ar epure evil. Sorry, I still dont buy it. wiccans are the most arrogant when they make these idiotoc claims and of course you will recieve poor relations form Chrisyaisn if you spout the rason you arent Christain is because of bad hisotry.}-Zarove

This has happened to me 4 times with good friends who could not tolerate I did not believe as they did.

{Yet you comd here to demean our faith and expect sympathy? You lied about our faith, and claim that the pnly thing that keeps peipel liek us form killign all nonchrisaisn is the govenrment. Don't you think that that is a wee bit insulting lassie? ezspecially when you lie about the hisotry of the religion.}-Zarove

Also, "witches" had nothing to do with paganism, they were usually women in agrarian societies who figured out how to do something men couldn't and attempted to use it to be independant, disrupting the social order of the time.

{This is a lie. For sytarters many witches where men. Fr another, witches wherent Independant wmen, they where users of black magic. Note I said black. Mage is the generic term for marig users, or magcian. witch universaly carried a negatice connotation until the time of Gerald Gardner.

The term witch was not applied to woemen who figured out how to do things men couldnt, and the very statement is itsself sexist.}_Zarove

"Witch hunts" were about killing non-believers when the church was in power, identifying them as the previous kind of witches.

{Then how do you explain the witch hunts that took place in Pagan times? How do you explain the fac tthat the time when Chrisainity wssthe dominent religion saw a drastic DECREASE of witch trials? How d you explain the fact that most witches who where killed in the time you suppose these htigns to paly out where themselves Chrisain?

You beleive rubbush propoganda about how the CHurc took power and dominated everyones lives as an authoritarian dictatorship, killed innocent and independant women, and killed htos ewho refsed to convert, claim Islam treated peopel better, and claim that the only thing that prevents Christaisn form beign mirderers now is the govenrment, all based on the LIE that Chrisyainity conqured europe in force, and then coem up with nonaccepted definitions of what a witch was that arent based on History at all, and then wonder why Christaisn don like you? Maybe its your approach and not your religion!}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 07, 2004.

By the way, the Gypsies during the Spanish Inquisition survived quite well in the mountains without converting. And, again, the witches were left alone.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), April 07, 2004.

http://ragz-international.com/churchmiddleages.htm

Thier is a nice website I bet she will ignore.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 07, 2004.

Another responce.

http://www.emnr.org/papers/why_not_burn_witches.htm

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 08, 2004.

Found another.

http://uk.geocities.com/titaniascircle/Burning.htm

undefined Send Me a Message View My Profile undefined More... Send Me a Message View My Profile Yahoo! SiteBuilder [Close] Send Me a Message View My Profile [Close] Send Me a Message View My Profile Yahoo! SiteBuilder Send Me a Message View My Profile The Burning Times

by Arlea Æðelwyrd Hunt-Anschütz

"Never again the burning times!" This familiar motto recalls a modern myth popular in Wicca and Witchcraft circles that tells how millions of Goddess worshippers practising "the Old Religion" in were hunted down, tortured and burned during the 15th-18th centuries by a Christian Church desparate to eliminate the last remaining Pagans in Europe. This myth, or various permutations of it, continues to be taught as "well known historical fact" in many Wicca 101 courses and Into to Witchcraft lectures. It is frequently referred to in books and articles written by Wiccans for Wiccans. These days, the theory that the victims of the Great Witch Hunt were Pagans is given about as much credence by academic historians as the theory that aliens from another planet built the pyramids. But although it's rejected by those who have actually analysed the evidence, the Burning Times Myth continues to be unquestioningly accepted by many modern witches, and must therefore serve some psychological or sociological purpose. But could this same purpose be better served by discarding the myth in favour of the truth?

The major source of The Burning Times Myth is Margaret Murray's 1921 book, The Witch Cult in Western Europe in which she attempted to use evidence from (mainly Scottish) witch trials to reconstruct the rites and rituals of a European witch cult, which, she claimed, was a survival of a ancient Pan-European Pagan religion. Over the past 75 years, academic historians have criticised Margret Murray's methodology and conclusions and have proved many of her assertions to be blatently false. She altered her witch trial data to suit her pre- concieved ideas, ignoring evidence that didn't fit, and she completely disregarded other sorts of historical data that were directly relevant to her claims.

Some of the faults with Margret Murray's historical research are summarised in The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles by Ronald Hutton (p.303)

Dr Murray's ignorance of ancient Paganism in Western Europe prevented her from realising that the rituals imputed to early modern witches were not antique rites but parodies of contemporary Christian ceremonies and social mores. Her failure to study Continental sources obviated the need to wonder why the Great Witch Hunt was confined to certain places and certain times, and why the 'witch cult' failed to persist in areas in which it was never persecuted. But even her limited information and sphere of interest should have driven her to ask why it was that, out of a genuine popular religion, it was almost always the female devotees who were arrested. Or why the Devil at the covens, whom she insisted was a mortal man in disguise, was never once apprehended.

Hutton goes on to state that (p.306): "During the past two decades a score of detailed local studies of the Great Witch Hunt, spanning Europe, have demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that its victims were not practioners of an Old Religion." The lengthy footnote attached to this statement references 20 books and articles on the subject.

So what's the real story with the "burning times"? The 40,000 or so victims of the Great Witch Hunt, which took place in the midst of religious battles between Catholics and Prodestants during the Reformation, weren't witches, or Goddess-worshippers, or Pagans of any sort. They were Church-going Christians. They tended to be old widowed women who were perceived as a burden on the community, out- spoken younger women who were perceived as a threat to the authorities, sexually promiscuous women, or women whose socio- economic power was a source of envy or fear. The form of "witchcraft" these women were falsely accused of was Satanic, not Pagan. The most popular accusation was that they fornicated with the Devil. Under torture, they often admitted to participating in forms of "the black mass" as fantasied by Christian zealots.

The Great Witch Hunt was not an effort by Christian authorities to stamp out Paganism. For all intents and purposes, that had been accomplished long before. In her book Witchcraze, Anne Llewllyn Barstow theorises over the real motivation behind the Great Witch Hunt and finds its source in the strongly patriarchial and misogynist social structure of early modern Europe. In the final chapter she writes:

I conclude that ruling-class European men looked at and treated their women basically as they did their African slaves and Indian serfs and as they had treated Jews and heretics before them, namely, with increasing violence. Viewing women as property, husbands became more authoritarian, a role no less oppressive for being disguised as paternalism. Just as slavery produced the myth of the good master, so patriarchy created the myth of the benevolent ruler of the family. Viewing women as dangerous (doesn't the master come to fear the slave?), judges and priests devised a satanic conspiracy theory to punish women who might step out of line. As the sociologist Richard Horsely observed, accusations of witchcraft were "a highly effective means of social control."

The Witch Trials resulted in an atmosphere of fear which was a very effective way of "keeping women in their place." Women living in areas where witch-hunts occured knew that if they asserted themselves in any way which offended the sensibilities of male authorities, religious or secular, they could be falsely accused of being in league with Lucifer and tortured until they admitted it. If a woman's friend or relative were accused of witchcraft, and she dared to stand up for them in court, she would run the risk of being accused of being a fellow witch and tortured until she confessed that both she and her loved one were guilty.

"The Burning Times" have nothing to do with the persecution of Pagans by Christians. Rather, they are an extreme example of the persecution of women within a patriarchal society. Feminists, and anyone who believes in justice and equality for all, should be outraged by the Great Witch Hunt, just as they are outraged about all instances throughout history of the institutionalised oppression of one group of people by another. Remembering those women who were tortured and killed for "stepping out of line" during the 300 years of Witch trials can serve as an inspiration to us to continue to fight for equality of women today in societies around the world.

But when Wiccans use the phrase "Never again the Burning Times," it tends to be in a context where they are discussing some instance (or perceived instance) of oppression of Neo-Pagan witches by mainstream Christian society, and not in a context where women in general are being oppressed. Now that Margaret Murray's fantasy of a Pagan Witch Cult whose surviving members were hunted down during the Reformation has been proven to be just that --a fantasy, why do so many Wiccans persist in taking a historical example of widespread mysogeny in Western society and narrowing the focus so that Pagan witches, rather than ordinary Christian women, become the victims?

Witches today are a disparate lot, with a plethora of different beliefs and practices. Wiccan organisations are subject to so much infighting that the term "bitchcraft" has come into common usage in Pagan circles. The Burning Times Myth helps to unite the Wiccan community by giving witches a common history of persecution, a common enemy, and a common goal. Gardnerians, Alexandrians, Solitaries and other varieties of witch can all see themselves as survivors of the Great Witch Hunt who need to band together against their Fundementalist Christian oppressors to ensure that Wiccans receive equal rights and equal opportunities in mainstream society so that the Burning Times never happen again. Whenever witches are negatively portrayed by the media, whenever a Wiccan parent is denied custody in a divorce case, whenever Wiccans who wear pentagrams to work are fired under mysterious circumstances, the Burning Times Myth looms large. Wiccans band together to help put a stop to instances of predjudice and discrimination towards witches because they "know" what can happen if they let it go unchecked. The Burning Times Myth functions as a cautionary tale to motivate Wiccans toward working to achieve their goal of equal rights and opportunities for witches.

The goal is laudable and the motivation seems to work. So why not continue to perpetuate the Burning Times Myth? What's the harm? One problem with the myth is that, while it inspires Wiccans to fight for acceptance by mainstream society, it helps to keep them from achieving it. A major public misconception that Wiccans have to deal with is the idea that witches worship the Christian Devil. And yet, it's not unusual for a Wiccan being interviewed by the mainstream media to follow up a statement that witches aren't Satanists with a statement that they were persecuted by Christians during The Great Witch Hunt. One glance at any witch trial transcript will show that the victims of the burning times were accused of, and confessed to, being Satanists. In fact, the popular modern idea that witches worship the Devil most likely has its roots in the misogynist propaganda surrounding the Great Witch Hunt. By continuing to idenify themselves as practioners of the same religion as those who were burned at the stake for engaging in sex with Satan, Wiccans themselves are guilty of blurring the line between Wicca and Satanism.

Another danger is that by repeating the myth that the victims of the Great Witch Hunt were, indeed, witches, and not simply ordinary women, Wiccans may be helping to perpetuate the very propaganda that let it occur in the first place. The horrors committed against women during the Burning Times were only allowed to continue because of the prevailing message that the victims were "witches"--evil devil- worshippers who were justly punished. This is the same sort of propaganda which was used to justify the horrors perpetrated against Jews during WWII. And yet, today, many mainstream women who are insistant that we should never forget the Holocaust, easily dismiss the Great Witch Hunt with rationalisations like: "Those witches must have done something to deserve it" or "That sort of thing could never happen today" or "That couldn't happen to me, I'm a Christian." If more modern women understood that the victims of The Great Witch Hunt were not witches in either the Neo-Pagan or the Satanist sense of the term, but simply women whose behavior was perceived as threatening male authority, the lesson of history might serve to motivate them to risk being labled trouble-makers and to fight for their rights rather than put up with the daily injustices against women that are the legacy of the patriarchy.

As a non-mainstream religion, Wicca has had to deal with popular misconceptions about, and predjudice against its practicioners. As a Goddess-centered religion, Wicca has long been tied up with the feminist movement and concerned with women's rights. These two aspects of Wicca are intimately linked, since it can be argured that many of the misconceptions and predjudices surrounding the religion ultimately result from a patriarchal society's fears of women's power and sexuality --the same fears that gave rise to the Great Witch Hunt. Addressing these societal fears, and advancing the cause of equal rights for women -- all women, is necessarily a good thing for Wicca, since a Goddess-centered religion can only florish in an atmosphere that encourages an appreciation of feminine qualities and a healthy respect for women. If Wiccans who have usurpt "Never Again the Burning Times" as their own motto, offer it up to their non- Wiccan sisters as a feminist battle cry, they will only be gaining allies in their fight for acceptance. Thus, the truth about The Burning Times ultimately holds more power for Wicca than the myth.

Return to Home Page

Published in the Spring 1999 issue of Connections Journal

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 08, 2004.

Another goodie.

http://www.adequacy.org/public/stories/2002.1.16.154054.217.html

Wiccans want to play the Voctim, Chrisyaisn killed peopel who didnt agree withthem andco wuered whole naitons,a dn of course the only thing that keeps Chrisaisn form becomign an angry bloodthirsty mob again is the Govnerment. Wicca on the other hand is a victim of persecution.

That sort of insultugn mindset may be why you can't keep Chrisain friends.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 08, 2004.

Dear Janey,

First of all, I think you should understand history far better than you do right now. "Besides the things like the crusades and the spanish inquisition" is most certainly not a firm grasp on certain events in Church history. Do you even know why these events occurred? I think you seriously need to dig deeper in these "witch hunts" and events so you are not misconstruing History.

Learn about the Crusades, and find out why they happened. Then, learn about the Inquisitions (both Catholic and Protestant ones) and see why they happened as well. And any other thing you have a problem with, learn about WHY they happened; not just that they did.

Janey, simply because wicca did not have a Crusade doesn't make it right. In religion, look at the end of where the worship lies. Christianity lies in Christ and God our Father, and wicca and witchcraft lies in humans and Satan. This fact alone should send shudders through your spine. Look at the good that has come from Christianity (the European Universities, music polyphonic development, cultural stability through the turbulent Middle Ages, etc...), and ask God to show you the way. God be with you

-- Andrew Staupe (stau0085@umn.edu), April 19, 2004.