I think the very concept of original sin is built-in guilt. Guilt is so ingrained in Christianity, the two are completely inseperable. Any religion that says we're born flawed and need the church to escape eternal torment sounds to me like a big guilt trip. Gee, sorry I was born flawed, God... maybe if you hadn't made me that way...

dk, your discussion of the Passion is one long guilt-fest. Jesus, a perfect person, died a horrible death because I jerked off last night. The whole mumbo-jumbo mythology crap surrounding Jesus' death is really starting to get on my nerves. And it does bother me that God is condemning us for being human. We're made this way, and God is telling us that expressing desires and wishes that God gave us made Jesus die.

The funny thing is that Judaism has no concept of original sin. Where did it come from? Jesus doesn't mention it. I think everybody was just so confused about what Jesus's death meant that they had to start making shit up fast.

-- Spike (SpikeyMikey@hotmail.com), April 23, 2004

Answers

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/original.htm

Actually, this is an interesting read. A Rabbi basically puts the smack down on the concept of original sin. He fleshes out the arguments I made in my last post. I wonder what Christians say to this stuff? I mean, he does a pretty good job of showing what crap theology Paul used. Of course, as many know, I'm no fan of Paul's anyway...

Why was this deleted?

-- Spike (SpikeyMikey@hotmail.com), April 23, 2004.

I think the very concept of original sin is built-in guilt.

{In a way, yes, in a way, no. depends on what you mean. Christainity is a mean to eliminate guilt one alreahyd yas, not a mean to generate it, as you assert here.}-Zarove

Guilt is so ingrained in Christianity, the two are completely inseperable.

{This is like saying "Alcaholism i so ingrained in he 12 step programm that the two are inseperable". The difference is you wan tto reverse the order. You want peopel to think Christainity creates guilt in order to imprison people, which is false, Christainity frees peopel form the guilt they already had.}-Zarove

Any religion that says we're born flawed and need the church to escape eternal torment sounds to me like a big guilt trip.

{Suffer to say, you are a complete idiot of you beleive we aren't Born flawed. Everyone acknowledges this. The Greeks, ling before Christains shwed up. acknowledged this, all one need do is read Sophoclese, or Homer. The Old Testement is filled with examples of sinful man and his flaws. Thde Churhc helps us by providing a mean to break bad habbits and deliver us, via its precepts and ethical cde, to a better life free form the torments of sin. This is not a guilt trip., but a self help program.}-Zarove

Gee, sorry I was born flawed, God... maybe if you hadn't made me that way...

{Hohoho, yes its all God's fault. If God had not made you flawed,then you woudl't be flawed...

This is idiots logic. God gave us free will, and we sin ourselves. We cause our own imperfections,a nd God has offered us a way to eliminate them. Blaming God is a typical Skeptic misrepresentation. ( Which means lie, since I am sure you know better)

The idea is thatGod made us flawed then punished us because of it. A ridiculpus notion not found in Christainity, but which is forced onto it by peopel who do not gather intellegently their informationa nd seek only to attack.}-Zarove

dk, your discussion of the Passion is one long guilt-fest. Jesus, a perfect person, died a horrible death because I jerked off last night.

{No, he died because you, and I, and everyone sins. Jesus's death was to reconcile us with God. It was not as trivial as you paint it.( By the way, not all Christaisn think Masterbation is a sin, and een those thta do not woudl appriciate that you not use crudities when conveyign speach. Likewise, it was unnessisary and belittling, since Jesus did not die soley for masterbation, nor is trivialising the matter really a mean of openign a dialouge, nor nessisary for conveyign your ideas, such as they are.) }-Zarove

The whole mumbo-jumbo mythology crap surrounding Jesus' death is really starting to get on my nerves.

{Then why is ot that you insist on coming here and talkign about it? Really, is someone holding a gun o your head and makign yo post on a Catholic Mesaage board? If you don't want to dhear it, then don't lidten. Go elsewhere. Leave. Don't go to Church, don't read the Bible. The vey fac that you posted, twice, this message proves that you xddo want ot talk about it, so it can't be muhc of a nerve wracjong topic. }-Zarove

And it does bother me that God is condemning us for being human.

{He's not. We condemn ourselves by seperatign ourselves form God. Their si a LARGE distinction between what Christaisn actually beelive and what you say they beelive. Listen, and don't repeat this nonsence ( As if you will take heed my statement, of course you will repeat it, you ar eocnsumed with hatred)

Christainity teaches that God made us to function a certain way, that is pour true nature and our ture self. We rebell, usign free will ( Which tour Judaism article said Christainit denies exists.) We seperate ourselves form our lving Creator, and thus condemn ourselves by our own sins. He does not condemn us for beign Human.}- Zarove

We're made this way, and God is telling us that expressing desires and wishes that God gave us made Jesus die.

{This is another lie. God did not make us this way, and then tell us not to acct on our desires. Rather, God tells us not to pervert our desires and to do that which is right. Their is a radical difference.

It is because we turned away form God, as well as turned away form the wy we where designed to be, that we have suffering and sin in this world. Not because God made us this way.}-Zarove

The funny thing is that Judaism has no concept of original sin.

{Yes it does, your article by a reformed Jewish Rabbi notwithstanding, Judaism has taught that we all sin, and we have a rebellious nature. Check some orthodox sites. They may not call it Origional sin, but the concept that we are not perfect exists in Judasism, as wlel as all Honest philosophies.}-Zarove

Where did it come from? Jesus doesn't mention it.

{It came form observation, and lato mentioned it. So did David in the Psalms. So did Isaiah. "All we as Sheep have Gone Astray".

The odctorine jut means we all screw up.}-Zarove

I think everybody was just so confused about what Jesus's death meant that they had to start making shit up fast.

{Thenyou are an ifiot. This, of course, is your brush off of it all, and we are suppose to accet it as fact when tyou don't even know what Christaisn relaly teach.

Jesus tld them before he died what his death was about. Their wa sno Misunderstanding.}-Zarove

-- Spike (SpikeyMikey@hotmail.com), April 23, 2004

Answers http://www.outreachjudaism.org/original.htm Actually, this is an interesting read.

{Yes, it said Abraham fllowed the Toprah, wich i laughable, since Abraham lived 1000 years before the Torah was wirtten by Moses. It also claims Christaisn teach that we have no free will, which is fase, Christaisn teach we do. They attakc Calvinism with its total depravity Doctorine, but not Chritainity in general.

Likeewise, it lied a lot about Paul, made unfoudned speculation on why Pual wrote what he did, and managed to mangle both Judaism and Christainity to support the Authors own modern, up beat predjudice.}- Zarove

A Rabbi basically puts the smack down on the concept of original sin.

{No, the Author of this article misrepreseted the teachigns of Christainity and created a straw man argument then knocked it down. Then went on to mangle Paul unjustly by warpign what he said and then claimign he misrepresented Scripture when the auhtor misrepresented Paul. If you beelive such ife than you are completely ignorant of reality.

You do not seek to understand, jst to attack Chrisyainity, and so, natrually, you take as solid truth anyhtign that speaks ill agaisnt it.}-Zarove

He fleshes out the arguments I made in my last post.

{No, he doesn't. He overlooks the fact that orthodox Judaism says we are Born in sin, overlooks the fac tthat Judiasm teaches we ned God for our salvation, and ovelrooks the real meanign of Paul when attakcing him.}-Zarove

I wonder what Christians say to this stuff?

{I posted a lengthy reply to the article, with my own comments, but it was deleted withthe thread, I will again later.}-Zarove

I mean, he does a pretty good job of showing what crap theology Paul used. Of course, as many know, I'm no fan of Paul's anyway...

{No, this author does not relaly do a good job of Showing the "Crap" theology Paul used. The auhtor blatantly misrepresents what Christaisn teach, what the Torah teaches, and what Paul said, warping his words to force them to read the wat she wanted. Likewise, She made the statement of his motives as fact, shen indeed they ar baseless speculation. Reality is not in the best interest of this article, nor you, for that matter, as truth is not what you seek, just atack.

You do not even know what Paul said, but you disagree because you read on several Websites how he mangled things and how horrible he was. Your egurgetate these arguments, and never bother to search the matter out.}-Zarove

Why was this deleted?

{That was covered. The thread messed up, and woudl not display, so it was deleted.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 23, 2004.

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00ByOo

See this thread.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 23, 2004.

Zarove??

You did mention that you were a church of Christ member, yes? But, you don't sound like a Calvinist. You are not, right?

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 23, 2004.

church of Christ folks aren't Calvinist, as I can determine. What are the chances of you becoming Catholic, Zarove?

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 23, 2004.

I think that guilt is the result of our personal awareness of others and the struggles they agonize with, while we are incapable or unwilling to help others. It doesn't make things right, but at least we can feel bad along with their suffering. The idea is to remove the guilt by making the effort to bring relief and comfort to those who are less off then us. I believe that Catholic doctrine teaches this idea of caring for others before ouselves. So, what is so wrong about religion/doctrine that teaches us to care for others? Nothing.

So, do you have guilt, Spike? And, what are you doing about that guilt? If you have no guilt, then I know where to get some. Just look around and see the troubles and suffering around our society. If that doesn't get you feeling that guilt,......well, don't worry about it, I guess.

..... .....

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 23, 2004.

Does Judaism Believe in Original Sin? What Does the Bible Really Say?

Question:

Dear Rabbi Singer,

Does the Jewish faith have a teaching comparable to that of “original sin” in the Christian tradition? By this I mean the teaching that all human beings are born with an innate tendency to disobey God. In my particular Christian tradition, water baptism is required for the removal of this sin. Would you please comment.

Thanks for your assistance.

Answer:

The term “original sin” is unknown to the Jewish scriptures, and the church’s teachings on this doctrine are antithetical to the core principles of the Torah and its prophets.

{tHIS IS NOT TRUE, THEN AGAIN, rABBI sINGER HIMSELF MAKES GROSS ERRORS IN RPESENTIGN THE tHEOLOGY. tHE tPRAH AND THE pROPHETS BOTH TEACH THAT hUMANS INDEED SIN,A ND ARE SO INCLINED TO SIN.}-Zarove

Moreover, your comment that your Christian denomination teaches that water baptism is essential for the removal of sin may rattle the sensitivities of more Christians than anything I am going to say.

{NBote the unnessisary comment here: His implication, of coure, is that Chrisyainity is fragemtned and deeply riddled with infighting. Judiaism is too, but his notaiton here serves no prupose ot his article, excpet to implicate.}-Zarove

Nevertheless, you have raised a number of important issues that must be addressed. Before answering your question, however, it is important that our website visitors understand the Christian doctrine on original sin.

{Yes it is, pity Rabbi Singer will falsely represent the information.}

According to church teachings, the mortal sin committed by our first parents in the Garden of Eden had catastrophic consequences for the human race. Most importantly, Christendom holds that these devastating effects extend far beyond the curses of painful childbirth and laborious farming conditions outlined in the third chapter of Genesis.

{ Most Chrostians do not use the term "Mortal sin". This is a Uniquely Catholic Aim. Not to offend Catholics, as this is a Catholic board, just a notation on how he lumps all Christaisn into a signle barrel. Later he lumps everythign Christain into Calvinism as well.

Incedentally, this is misleading. Christaisn teach that because Adam and eve sinned, we deal with Sin today, which Judaism also teaches.}-Zarove

This well-known church doctrine posits that when Adam and Eve rebelled against God and ate from the forbidden Tree of Knowledge, all of their descendants became infected with the stain of their transgression.

{No. Only some Christaisn beleive this, others beelive that Adam and eve's sin caused sin to enter the world, but we are responcible ofr our own Sin. Indeed, on the Articles of Faith used by Mormons, it clealry states this; "2 We believe that men will be apunished for their own• sins, and not for Adam’s ctransgression."

The LDS are not alone, and many Christaisn beelive that , although Adam and eve's sin bought sin into the world, we are all ultimately repsoncible for pour own action.}-Zarove

Moreover, as a consequence of this first iniquity, man is hopelessly lost in a state of sin in which he has been held captive since this fall.

{Actualy Christains, and Orthodox Jews, think that Man is inclined to sin, and becomes trapped in his own sinful habbits. Yes, man is captive to sin, but sin is still a free chopice. The Catholic Examination of Concience proves this, becasue it states that " I have sinned against God willignly in thught and Deed", to Paraphrase.}- Zarove

As a result, he is powerless to follow the path of obedience and righteousness by his own free will.

{Actually, all Chruches teach, with the exception of the Calvinists and a few other smaller denominations, that Free Will is what is nessisary FOR admittance onto the Chruch. We are freely admited into the Chruch on our own free will. Liekise, we freely CHOOSE God, and the whole rleigion of Christanity is based on that simple Choice, to Choose or Reject God.Chpoice requires free will to exist.}-Zarove

Rather, missionaries contend, because all are born with an innate and uncontrollable lust for sin, humanity can do nothing to merit its own salvation.

{Christaisn do not teach that it is uncontrolable. Likewise, although Christasn DO teach that Slavationon our own is Impossible, so dos Judaism.}-Zarove

In essence, man is totally depraved and true free will is far beyond his grasp.

{The first poiun we must address here is the auhtors own Slipery Slope argument. The aiuthor states that we are totally depraved theirfore incapable of possessing free will. However, this is clealry not true. Free will is independant of a depraved state,a nd one can be totally depraved and still possess free will.Thus, simpley saying man is totally Depraved does not say that Free Will is beyond his grasp.

Likewise, only Calvinists teach that Man is totally Depraved. They also teach that Man has no free will.However, these two teahcigns are seperate, and a group can holsd one without the other. EI the gprup can hold that man is Totally Depraved without holding hat their is no free will. Or, conversley, a group can hold that Their is no free will, butthat man is not essentially totally depracved. except, of coruse, hose predetermiend to.

Most Christaisn arent Calvinists. I am not a Calvinist. (To answer rod on that one). Catholics arent Calvinists. Catholics, and most Chrixtains in general, beleive in Free will. Indeed, Chrisyainity as a whole makes no sence if free will is not in existance, since we are all called to CHOOSE Christ. we cannot Choose christ if we are barred free will.

Also, not all Christasn teach total depravity. Their is a difference between an inclinatio to sin, and utter and total depravity... }-Zarove

“Totally depraved” may seem to be a harsh way for a Christian doctrine to depict mankind’s dire condition, yet this is precisely the term used by the church to describe man’s desperate, sinful predicament.

{If, that is, you are a Calvinist. If not, then this term doesn't tend to show up in writigns by Christians, except some hardcore far afeild Baptists and soem other minor groups. The majority do not teach it and thus the entire premise is false.}-Zarove

It is only through faith in Jesus, Christendom concludes, that hopeless man can be saved.

{Correct, but again, this is the same teahcign as in Judaism. Judaism teaches relianc eon God for your salvation, and Chrisgtaisn teach that Jesus was God. Or at leats most do. ( Those that do not tend to not teach that Salvation depends on acceptace of Jesus, though some groups do exist that do.)

Psalm 19, for starters, shows this. Not ehte Bold areas.

Psalms 19

1. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5. Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. 7. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. 8. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. 10. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. 11. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. 12. Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. 13. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. 14. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer. And plenty of other verses say we need God for salvation in Jewish Scriptrues. More on this later.}-Zarove

You stated in your question that the doctrine on original sin teaches that “all human beings are born with an innate tendency to disobey God.” While this statement is superficially correct, it fails to convey the far-reaching scope of this church doctrine.

{Now we have a Rabbi expounding Christain teahcings! well, we know hes right, and if the Christain didn't knwo this was the scope pf their own religions teahcigs,they need to learn the truth form someone whosde openly Hostile to Chrisyainity, and learn the eror of a theology they never beleived byt is nonetheless part of the religon because Rabbi Singer said so...

Sorry, he has JUST admited the fact that Judaism teaches that man innately rebels against God, and htis is what Christainity teaches. Now he has to erect a Straw Man and knock it down to shwo how false Christainity is...}-Zarove

Although Christianity does teach that the entire human race is born with an evil inclination, this tenet encompasses a far more extreme position than the one that you briefly outlined.

{No, it does not. Most Christaisn do not have a dper implication than this, and this si the totality of the belif.}-Zarove

In fact, missionaries insist that as a result of the fall in the Garden of Eden, man’s unquenchable desire for sin is virtually ungovernable.

{No, they don't. Christains teach that man can govenr his passions and brign himself in accord tot he will of God through the teahcigns of the chruch. They do ot teachthat these thigns are ungovernable.}- Zarove

In Christian terms, man is not inclined toward sin but more accurately is a slave to sin.

{Actually, both. Think of it as an alcaholic. At firts he is inlcined to drink, then he becomes addicted. He becomes a slave tothe Bottle. Nonetheless, this is Goenrable, and their is hope for him.That is what Christanity is.Hope for the alcaholic.(Metaphore intended, though alcaholics do get help forn the chruch.)}-Zarove

As a result, the church concludes, short of converting to Christianity, humanity can do nothing to save itself from hell.

{Most branches to teach that one must be a Christain to be saved, however, nto all. Likewise, the entire premise of the article is false hwoever, and hte implications that this statement generates is likewiuse false.}-Zarove

Bear in mind, there is good reason for the church’s uncompromising stand on this cherished doctrine. The founders of Christianity understood that if man can save himself from eternal damnation through his own initiative and obedience to God, the church would have very little to offer the human race.

{Yes, Christainity is all about power and controle, and wants to dominate peoples lives, and if it doesnt twezhc htis false doctotie, it loses all its power...

This is liablous mateiral, which is patently false. Chritains teach that Humans ar enaturally inclined to sin, JUST LIKE JUDAISM ,and liek Judaism, we need God to Overcome our own sin and weaknesses.

Rabbi Singer simpley tells a false tale here, and does so to generate a negative image of the Chruch dileberately. So much for religious toelrence. I am glad most Jews don't actually react the way he does.}-Zarove

Moreover, if righteousness can be achieved through submission to the commandments outlined in the Torah, what possible benefit could Jesus’ death provide for mankind?

{Does Rabbi Singer realise that Obedience tot he law of the Tprah dod not remove sin, it only covered it? As it states in the Torah itsself?

Hesus's death was the final sacrifice. Now we need no animals on the altar. Likewise, the old law was abolished, and new covenant was made so that we can now reconcile direclty to God. This is what Jesus's death meant, a recociliationa nd atonement for all sins fo the world. Judaism does not have this.}-Zarove

Such self-probing thoughts, however, were unimaginable to those who shaped primitive Christianity.

{This is another false statement, and runs contrary to what Rabbi's tauhg tint he firts century as well.

Christains wher enot suhc dllards as the Rabbi Singer presents, nor was the rleigion based on controle and a lie. Sinc ehe falsely represented the beelifs of the rleigion though, why shoudl that matter? Peiopel liek you, Mikey, will beleive Rabbi singer over me. After all, he trashes Christainity, an so do you. YToy want to se it torn down and burned. You enjoy ripign into it. You dont want the truth, just arguent agaisnt.}-Zarove

Despite the zealous position missionaries take as they defend this creed, the Christian doctrine on original sin is profoundly hostile to the central teachings of the Jewish scriptures.

{No, its not.In fact its compelmentary.}-Zarove

Over and over again the Torah loudly dismisses the notion that man has lost his divinely endowed capacity to freely choose good over evil, life over death.

{Again, so does Christainity. Their is a distinction between havign a sinful inclination, and havign free will. His article labours under the notion that Christaisn teach man has no free will, which is false. On the measure of beign abot to choose good and evil, Jews and Christaisn alike agree. Indeed, and I have said it before, the entire Christain religion is base don a choice. You ust Choose God and Christ, of your own free will. }-Zarove

This is not a hidden or ambiguous message in the Jewish scriptures. On the contrary, it is proclaimed in virtually every teaching that Moses directs to the children of Israel.

{So was it in the Ministry of Jesus, and liewise was it though Paul, whom you both seem to delight in tearign into.}-Zarove

In fact, in an extraordinary sermon delivered by Moses in the last days of his life, the prophet stands before the entire nation and condemns the notion that man’s condition is utterly hopeless. Throughout this uplifting exhortation, Moses declares that it is man alone who can and must merit his own salvation.

{No, he did not, he said we must rely on God.The same as everyone to follow him, including those Propehts Rabbi Singer states agsint Christains.}-Zarove

Moreover, as he unhesitatingly speaks in the name of God, the lawgiver thoroughly rejects the notion that obedience to the Almighty is “too difficult or far off” and declares to the children of Israel that righteousness has been placed within their reach.

{This is true. Likewise, Christainity does not teach that Oberiedience is impossible. It only teaches that wse ar einclined to sin and rebel, which Judaism also teaches.If it wer eimpossible, then how woudl we profit form the Chruches ethical teahcigns which we are expecte dto live by?}-Zarove

Deuteronomy 30 isn’t a quiet chapter and its verses read as though the Torah is bracing the Jewish people for the Christian doctrines that would confront them many centuries later. As the last Book of the Pentateuch draws to a close, Moses admonishes his young nation not to question their capacity to remain faithful to the mitzvoth of the Torah. Deuteronomy 30:10-14 states:

. . . if you will hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law; if you turn unto the Lord thy God with all your heart and with all your soul; for this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you neither is it too far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, “Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us hear it, that we may do it?” Neither is it beyond the sea that you should say: “Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it that we may do it?” The word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

{Guess what? Christains teach this too!!!!!!!!!}-Zarove

The Jewish people have drawn great comfort and encouragement from this uplifting promise. For the church, however, Moses’ strong message created a theological disaster.

{No it didn't. As I said earlier, the Chruch never taught that it was impossible to live by God's commandments, only that we have all sinned, and ae subjec tto these passions, which Isaiah also said when he said " All we as Sheep have gone Astray"(Isaiah 53:6). This is no different in Christainity, and their is no difference with what Chrisyanity teaches. Indeed, Christaimity compleemnts the Jewish Teahcign here. The Rabbi simpley has to lie to force it not to.}- Zarove

How could the authors of the New Testament reasonably insist that man’s dire condition was hopeless if the Torah unambiguously declared that man possessed an extraordinary ability to remain faithful to God?

{Chrisyaisn didn't claim it was Hopeless, and the Taanahk is filled with contradictory statements form the Rabbi.

Isaiah 1:18 is a famus verse. 18. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

The thing is however, we must obey God.

Isaiah:119. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20. But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

This is EXACLTY what Jesus taiught and Paul write about. Since the U=Author trahes Paul thphg, lets see wht he says.

8. Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 11. And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Paul certaibl doesnt say its impossibke, several other places speak of this.}-Zarove

How could the church fathers possibly contend that the mitzvoth in the Torah couldn’t save the Jewish people when the Creator proclaimed otherwise?

{The Bible said that the Messiah woudl take away the sins of the poeple. This is still taught in Orthodox Synagauges.}-Zarove

How could missionaries conceivably maintain that the commandments of the Torah are too difficult when the Torah declares that they are “not far off,” “not too hard,” and “you may do it”?

{Paul repeatedly said we CAN do it, dispite this autors claim that we cannot. Romans 6

1. Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 4. But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5. For every man shall bear his own burden. 6. Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.}-Zarove

This staggering problem did not escape the keen attention of Paul. Bear in mind, the author of Romans and Galatians constructed his most consequential doctrines on the premise that man is utterly depraved and incapable of saving himself through his own obedience to God.

{No he didn't. Paul write that we all must bear our own burden. (See above.)

Likewise, he extors us to all take repsobcibility for our own sin. 1 thesselonians Chapter 4.(NRSV for this, my program failed and it was the ifrts to come up.)

1:Finally, brothers and sisters, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus that, as you learned from us how you ought to live and to please God (as, in fact, you are doing), you should do so more and more. 2For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from fornication; 4that each one of you know how to control your own body in holiness and honor, 5not with lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6that no one wrong or exploit a brother or sister in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, just as we have already told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. 7For God did not call us to impurity but in holiness.

Paul teaches that we CAN cotnrole ourselves many times.}-Zarove

In chapter after chapter he directs his largely gentile audiences toward the cross and away from Sinai as he repeatedly insists that man is lost without Jesus.

{Actually, all Christaisn direct man toward the Criss, biut not away form Sinai.}-Zarove

Yet how could Paul harmonize this wayward theology with the Jewish scriptures in which his teachings were not only unknown, but thoroughly condemned?

{They wherent condemned, in fact it was almost identicle except for his statements about the messiah and his statement that we are norw free form the Law.}-Zarove

Even with the nimble skills that Paul possessed, welding together the church’s young doctrine on original sin with diametrically opposed teachings of the Jewish scriptures would not be a simple task.

{Actually, their wa sno welding. The Jews taught htis idea first...}- Zarove

Employing unparalleled literary manipulation, however, Paul manages to conceal this vexing theological problem with a swipe of his well- worn eraser.

{This slander aimed at Paul is a lie. Paul did no conceal or erase anyhting.}-Zarove

In fact, Paul’s innovative approach to biblical tampering was so remarkable that it would set the standard of scriptural revisionism for future New Testament authors.

{No, it woudl not, and he did not revise the scroptures. Unless you show me the "Christain revised Torah" that Paul actually write up, then this is simpley a lie.}-Zarove

A classic example of this biblical revisionism can be found in Romans 10:8 where Paul announces to his readers that he is quoting directly from scripture as he records the words of Deuteronomy 30:14. Yet as he approaches the last portion of this verse, he carefully stops short of the Torah’s vital conclusion and expunges the remaining segment of this crucial verse. In Romans 10:8 Paul writes,

{He didnt carefully stop short. He coudltn quote the whoel chapter and he quoted the portions that made his point. Suplyng an evil motive is unwarrented slander, and not legitimate in any way.It is speculation toted as fact, and self serving speculation at that.}- Zarove

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach).

{Paul didn't omit that, and mant passages say the same thing.}-Zarove

Predictably, the last words of Deuteronomy 30:14, “that you may do it,” were meticulously deleted by Paul.

{Yesz, Paul didnt want you to think you coudl do it, and we knwo this. Likewise, we know or a fact his thought proccesses, even though he has been dead for a little under 2000 years.

Sorry, this is self serving propoganda. Not fact.}-Zarve

Bear in mind that he had good reason for removing this clause -- the powerful message contained in these closing words rendered all that Paul was preaching as heresy.

{No it didn't. Least of all since what Paul was preaching was not in contradiction of it, excpet, of course, in this article which falsely represnts what he taught.

The queatsion is, do we trust a liar, like Rabbi Singer, or the facts?}-Zarove

This stunning misquote in Romans stands out as a remarkable illustration of Paul’s ability to shape scriptures in order to create the illusion that his theological message conformed to the principles of the Torah.

{Yes POaul was a Liar... sorry, this is false. For one thing, not quoting all of a pasage inst a misquotation. At best its a quote out of context. whats worse thouygh is that the passag ein queatsion is not out of context.

The fll context of Pauls passage is here.No where does he say that anythign is unataiable.

1. Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7. Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8. But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.}-Zarove

By removing the final segment of this verse, Paul succeeded in convincing his largely gentile readers that his Christian teachings were supported by the principles of the Hebrew Bible.

{No he didnt. For that matter, why woudl Gentiles care if it was supported byt eh Hebrew Bible?

As illsutrated above, Rabbi Singer misrepresented the thigns Paul taiught, and you regurgetate the anti-Paul claptrap wothout fll understandign of the actual thigns he write, without queatsionign them, then wan tto condemn us for blind faith...}-Zarove

Deuteronomy 30:14 Romans 10:8 But the word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach).

The question that immediately comes to mind is: How can Paul deliberately remove a vital clause from Moses’ message and still expect to gain a following among the Jewish people? While considering this question, we can begin to understand why Paul attained great success among his gentile audiences and utterly failed among the Jews who were unimpressed with his contrived message.

{Actually many Jews also converted int he First Century...and his statements, wihthte excpetion of the Messiah having come and the Law beign unnessisary, where taught byu Firts Century Rabbis, and most are still taught today by Orthodox Rabbi's.}-Zarove

It is for this reason that although both Paul and Matthew quoted extensively from the Jewish scriptures, they achieved a very different result.

{No they didnt. Mathew converted many Jews as well...}-Zarove

Paul was largely a minister to gentile audiences who were ignorant of the Jewish Bible (the only Bible in existence at the time). As a result, they did not possess the skills necessary to discern between genuine Judaism and Bible tampering. These illiterate masses were, as a result, vulnerable, and eagerly consumed everything that Paul taught them.

{Again, wehy? If they where Pagans and polytheistic, why woudl they relaly consider the Hebrew Bible important anyway? By the way, many had read it.Plato even wrote a commentary on the Torah.}-Zarove

In fact, throughout the New Testament it was exclusively the Jewish apostates to Christianity who challenged Paul’s authority, never the gentile community.

{Another old Charge. "Paul was never accepted by the other Paostles." Thsi charge has been covered before, suffer to say, tis false. Peter, in 1 Peter 3:15, declared Paul's writigns scripture. He, and his epistles, where accepted byt he Jewush CHristains, and was never challenged.}-Zarove

Matthew, on the other hand, directed all of his evangelism and Bible quotes to Jewish audiences. Jewish people, however, were keenly aware of Matthew’s manipulation of their Bible. As a result, the first Gospel failed to effectively reach its intended Jewish readers.

{This is false. Many jews DID Convert, as Historical records reveal...Just because all of them didnt doesnt mean it failed.}-Zarove

It required little more than a perfunctory reading of the first few chapters in the Book of Matthew for Jewish people to determine that there was no prophecy in Isaiah that foretold that a virgin would give birth to a messiah.

{Isiaah 7:14. I know, tis relaly "Young Woman" nowadays, but Rabbi's where teahcign in the earlier centiries that it meant virgin. Even the famous Septuegent, prodiced befre Christs Birth, translated the passage " Parthenos" meanign Virgin. First Century Jewish writigns, and even BC writins form the 1-3 Century, reveal the Jewish Leaders of the diasora expected a Virgin Birth. The idea that htis was not a virgin Birht stemmed after Christainity began to spread.}-Zarove

Likewise, the Jewish people were doubly unimpressed with Matthew’s claim that the messiah was to be a resident of Nazareth, when no such prophecy existed.

{Zacheriah sdisagreeed, so did most Jewish Rabbi's of the firt Centiry BC.As with above, this is reactionism to Christainity, beginnign in around the second centiry.}-Zarove

The people of Israel concluded that Matthew had engaged in a willful and unrestrained corruption of their sacred scriptures. Consequently, the author of the first Gospel failed in his effort to convert his targeted Jewish audiences to Christianity.

{No he didn't. Many did Convert.}-Zarove

Ironically, there was no individual in history who was more responsible for the strong resistance of the Jewish people to the Christian message than Matthew.

{Historical reference to support this accusation pelase.}-Zarove

In contrast, the person most responsible for the church’s unparalleled success among the gentiles was unquestionably the apostle Paul. Not surprisingly, throughout the biblical narrative, gentiles had always had a terrible time discerning chaff from wheat, truth from heresy; and the Jews were repeatedly warned never to emulate them. Tragically, some of our people missed this crucial message.

{Now ou are sayign that Jews did Converty? Sorry, this is just a racist slur now. Aimed at all NonJews. Again, not all Jews do this, but this oen did. This is your auhtority?

By the way, many Jews DID convery the earliest chruch was in Jerusalem and run by Jews, and grew rapidly lead by peter until the Romans took over Jerusalem. ( At which time it is reported he went to Rome.)

Likewise, the gentiles arent that stupid.}-Zarove

Paul, however, should have been tipped off that his teachings on original sin were misguided and that his broad-brushed characterization of humanity was erroneous.

{Since the auhtor shows no understandign of the idea of Orional sin and has Misrepresented it, this is a superflous comment, but he author is clearly unnformed as to what Paul taight.}-Zarove

In fact, the Jewish scriptures repeatedly praised numerous men of God for their unwavering righteousness. For example, the Bible declared that men like Calev1 and King Josiah2 were faithful throughout their extraordinary lives.

{Yes, but the wherent ever called Sinless. Their is a difference here.}-Zarove

Moreover, because of their devotion to their Creator, Abraham and Daniel were the objects of the Almighty’s warm affection as He tenderly referred to Abraham as “My friend,”3 and Daniel, “beloved.”4

{Abraham also lied and sinned repeatedly, as it is mentioned in the Genesis acocunt of his life. Daniel was also not perfect.Both relied on God for their salvation and both repeatedly fell.}-Zarove

These extraordinary people did not merit these remarkable superlatives because they believed in Jesus or depended on a blood atonement; but rather, it was their devotion to God and unyielding obedience to His Torah that shaped their lives.

{Rather silly poin since Jesus's attonement had yet to happen and was centirues off. Of course they didnt beelive in the Blood Attonement. They still had to rely on God for their salvation. And since Christausn teach that Jesus was God, this si the saem thing.}-Zarove

Job’s unique loyalty to God stands as a permanent enigma to Christian theology as well.

{No it doesnt. Job is repremanded for Pride at the end. Likewise, Job is thoguh of by Both Jews and Christaisn as an Allegorogal tale that illsutrates a point.}-Zarove

Here was a man who was severely tested by Satan and endured unimaginable personal tragedies, yet despite these afflictions, Job remains the model of the righteous servant of God. While in Christian theology Job’s personal spiritual triumph is a theological impossibility, in Jewish terms it stands out as the embodiment of God’s salvation program for mankind.

{This is false. Christainity never siad salvaTION was impossible. Likewise, Job still had to rely on God, which means Jesus...}-Zarove

Job didn’t rely on Jesus to save him and he certainly did not turn to the cross for his redemption;

{Teir was no Cross to turn to, but he did Tirn to Jesus, since Jesus is God...}-Zarove

rather, it was his unswerving obedience to God that made his life a lesson for all of humanity.

{Yes, and Jesus was God...}-Zarove

Paul’s unfounded doctrine on original sin sullies the exemplary legacies of these and many other great men of God. Moreover, Christians must ponder whether it is an insult to the Creator to label all of God’s human creation depraved.

{Again, all of those men sinned, as it is written about in JEWISH scriptures. Again, Jesus is God. Again, CHristaisn do not teach routinely total depravity.}-Zarove

Quite unwittingly, Luke committed a striking theological blunder that severely undermined Paul’s teachings on original sin. In the first chapter of Luke, the evangelist seeks to portray Elizabeth, who is the cousin of Mary, and her husband Zechariah as the virtuous parents of John the Baptist. Yet in his zeal to characterize the baptizer’s mother and father as saints, Luke unwittingly writes, “Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.” (Luke 1:6)

{Which is explaiend above.They still sinned.}-Zarove

The question that immediately comes to mind is how can missionaries possibly harmonize Paul’s insistence that all humanity is depraved when Luke insists that Elizabeth and Zechariah were to be regarded as “blameless”?

{Find the teahcign that man is Depraved in Paul.}-Zarove

This is a stunning gaffe for Luke to make when it was he who eagerly promoted Paul in his Book of Acts.

{Paul didnt teacj total depravity. S its not hat stunning.}-Zarove

Doesn’t Luke’s assertion that this couple observed “all the Lord’s commandments” fly in the face of Paul’s central teaching that no one is capable of keeping the mitzvoth of the Torah? Is it not a fact that Christianity teaches that this task is impossible?

{No, since Isaiah also said the same thing...}-Zarove

Paul never lived to read the Book of Luke, yet throughout his epistles Paul sidesteps any statement in the Jewish scriptures that could undermine his teaching on original sin. For example, immediately after the sin of Adam and Eve is narrated, the Torah declares that man can master his passionate lust for sin. In Genesis 4:6-7, God turns to Cain and warns him,

If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? If, though, you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you shall master over it.

{Again, Cain still sinned, he was a Murderer...}-Zarove

For Christian architects like Paul, Augustine, and Calvin, this declaration of man’s capacity to restrain and govern his lust for sin is nothing short of heresy.

{For Clavin yes. Bu Augustine? Calvin was directly oppsoed to Augistine. Likewise, Paul never taught that we cousltn contain our lusts. Nor did Augistine. in fact, Augustine demanded we do.}-Zarove.

Moreover, the fact that the Torah places these assuring words immediately following the sin in the Garden of Eden5 is profoundly troubling for the church.

{Yes...if its a clavinistic one. But sinc emost of us do NOT beleive this, then its not that mucg toruble.}-Zarove

How can depraved humanity control its iniquity when the Book of Romans repeatedly insists that man can do nothing to release himself from sin’s powerful grip?

{The book of romans said we can.}-Zarove

Yet notice that there is nothing in the Eden narrative that could be construed as support for Paul’s teaching on humanity’s dire condition. On the contrary, in just these two inspiring verses, the Torah dispels forever the church’s teachings on original sin.

{No, it doesnt. Only the authors straw man.}-Zarove

There is one final point that must be addressed regarding a passing statement you made in your question. I was somewhat puzzled by your comment that your brand of Christianity teaches that “water baptism is required for the removal of this sin.” It is not uncommon for Christians to relate some personal tidbit about their religious beliefs somewhere in the course of their question. What was so surprising about your comment, however, is that your church has simply replaced one commandment with another.

{Which is irrelevant nex tto the misundertsanding of the auhtor about Biblical teahcing.}-Zarove

On the one hand, your church teaches that the commandments explicitly ordained by the Torah are to be abandoned by believing Christians. Yet in the very same breath, your church then introduces this brand new commandment declaring that its parishioners must undergo a water baptism to be saved.

{And water baptism is in the torah? Likewise, Christaisn do nto ignore the law...}-Zarove

It would seem more logical that if you were going to contemplate observing commandments, you might as well devote your loyalty to those mitzvoth ordained by God rather than those introduced by your pastor and deacons.

{This was ordaiend by God. Simpley saying it wasnt is false.}-Zarove

The notion that man is saved by being washed in water or forgiven through human blood is unknown to the Jewish scriptures.

{No its not. Jews at the Quamran community, for instance, practiced baprtism. Likewise, the Eesenes.

Further, the whole sacrificial system was based in the same concept.}-Zarove

The Almighty does, however, clearly lay out His sovereign plan for His covenant people when he declares, “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.” (Deuteronomy 30:15) What is this “life” and “good” of which the Torah speaks? Missionaries insist that the Jewish nation must convert to Christianity and believe in a crucified messiah in order to be saved. The Torah, however, disagrees.

{No, the Torah predates the Corss, thus cannot disagree with it as a condition.}-Zarove

Throughout the Hebrew Bible the Almighty unambiguously declares that the children of Israel are to draw near to Him with intense love and faithfully keep His commandments. This is the desire of the Creator. Moses beseeches the children of Israel,

{Thi sis also true of Christains.}-Zarove

I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees, and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. (Deuteronomy 30:16)

{The same thign is said by Christains...}-Zarove

Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation, remained intensely loyal to God’s commandments and, as a result, the Torah regards our first patriarch as the paradigm of faithfulness.

{Who still sinned.}-Zarove

I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands, and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. (Genesis 26:4-5)

{Paul said the same thing.He too praised Abraham for his faith.}- Zarove

The Almighty did not give us desires that we cannot govern or commandments that we could not keep.

{Chrisytainity teaches that he doesnt even tempt us with what we cannot overcome. This then agrees with your own statement.}-Zarove

The Torah was not delivered to angels, it was given to the children of Israel long after our first ancestors transgressed in the Garden of Eden.

{Which is meaningless as an observation as we all agree.}-Zarove

In Jewish terms, sin is not a person, it’s an event, and that event happened yesterday.

{Sin is an Act in Christain thohght and Jewish thought, not a person.}-Zarove

In chapter after chapter, the prophets of Israel beseech those who lost their way to turn back to the Merciful One because today is a new day.

{So does Christainity.}-Zarove

Best wishes for a happy Purim.

Very sincerely yours,

Rabbi Tovia Singer

Footnotes:

Click on the footnote to return to the article

1Numbers 14:24. 2II Kings 22:2. 3Isaiah 41:8. 4Daniel 9:23; 10:11; 10:19. 5The sin in the Garden of Eden is found in chapter three of Genesis.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 23, 2004.