This is my reply to the thread "Guilt Trip..." which has an error on server.

Christianity teaches that it is not possible for a man to be righteous. Only through Jesus's sacrifice can we be saved. He "paid the price" for our sins. This is all coming from Paul. What part do I have wrong, Zarove?

There is no concept of original sin in Judaism. I defy you to find me a non-Jews-for-Jesus Jewish source that says original sin exists. Really, I'd love to see it. Seeing as how none such source exists, it is fair to say that the doctrine of original sin is a creation of Christianity. Jesus doesn't mention it, therefore Paul was the one who created it.

Your response had no evidence in it, it was just a rant. So maybe you can come back when you actually have something to fight with. Apparently I've misrepresented Paul. What's the correct representation? Where is the Judaic evidence of original sin?

-- Spike (spikeymikey@hotmail.com), April 23, 2004

Answers

Not that it would have to be Jewish doctrine to be valid Christian doctrine, but ... how about Genesis?? It describes the original sin and its consequences in some detail.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 23, 2004.

Just read the Proverbs; the prophet David says ''In sin did my mother conceive me.''

Meaning HE was in sin, original sin. His mother was not sinning when he was conceived, she was married to Jesse.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 23, 2004.

Dear Spike:
Did you find the proverb? If the prophet says he is born in sin from conception, that is David; then the Old Testament teaches original sin, doesn't it? The Israelites must have believed in it.

What makes their attitude so different is, they also are taught that they are the chosen people. I remember one jew writing, ''If we are chosen, why must we be redeemed?'' They are unable for now to understand. That's why they can't worry themselves about ANY sin.

Paul and the holy apostles also taught Original Sin. It stands to reason; Jesus Christ as Master and Redeemer ordered it taught. No apostle went out and pushed the envelope, adding his twist to Christ's words. If the apostles made it doctrine, it is Jesus Christ's word. If it's Christ's doctrine, it's the truth. if the doctrine is taught in Christ's holy Church, we have faith in the doctrine. (That's a lot of ''ifs.'' Put your mind to work on them, Spike.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 23, 2004.

To answer thsi queatsion, you must first understand what origional sin is. You said God gave you these desires then punishes you for acitng o them, this is your vewi of Origional Sin. This is not the Christain View of it.

Christainity teraches that we are INCLINED to sin. At the same time, and I am not sure how much of my earlier posst you read, Sin is still a choice. ( Theirfore your "Brilliant" article by Rabbi Singer is frife with Fraudulence.)

Sin exists because free will exists. We choose to sin, and we choose Jesus.

Adam and Eve sinned,a dnbecause of their sin, sin entered the world, however, we still have a choice to sin or not to sin.

Nonetheless, mankind is rebellious by nature.

But as I said, Oritional sin is not what Most Christaisn actually beleive condemns us to Hell, rather it si our own sins that condmen us, not the way God made us, as with youe own claims.

Romans 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

We inherited sin by example, and bred toward rebellion by genertics.

Now, as to your queatsion, I will answer it in two parts, oen form the Tanahk, also called the ld testement, and another,much alter as it will require more research, from Jewish Sorices that rpedaye Christainity.

Genesis chapter 6 begins the flood narrative, and in it, God comemtns hat man is wicked.

5. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Furthermore, after the flood, this comemtn is made, and it is important.

Form chapter 8, verse 21, of Genesis.

21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

In addition, we have Psalm 51:5 that has alreayd been shown.

5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Other Bibel verses, ranging form Moses to Malachi state clealry this, as do other Jewish writings. As I need researhc tim to make a full responce though, i will rest a this, hwoever, tis a good start.

will get bakc to you in a coupel of days.

The jews also ha a Holiday called "Ypm Kippur" which is the Day of Attonement for Sin one has commited in that year, Chrisaisn lack this as our saviour alreayd payed the price.Nowntheless, the jews acnowwledge their own sinful nature.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 23, 2004.

The point is that Christianity assumes there is no way to be forgiven your sins except through Christ, and Judaism has ways to be forgiven sins. Blood sacrifice for unintentional sins, charity and honest confession and request for forgiveness for intentional sins. So it's just stupid to say that only through Jesus's righteousness could our sins be forgiven. The Torah clearly demonstrates other ways.

The other point is that Judaism believes it's possible for a human to be righteous, whereas Christianity does not.

-- Spike (SpikeyMikey@hotmail.com), April 23, 2004.

The Torah describes the means of atonement that were valid under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant has replaced the Old. Not everyone acknowledges this fact, or even realizes it, but it is still the truth.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 24, 2004.

Spike,
We don't accept this: ''The point is that Christianity assumes there is no way to be forgiven your sins except through Christ,''

Christians assume nothing. It would be stupid to assume anything like what we're talking about. What did you think; that Christianity is just a stab in the dark? God has clearly revealed the truth to men. We are to be saved by the very blood and merits of ONE man. He's God the eternal Son, the promised Holy One of Israel. Messiah and Lamb of God.

You are fixated on the sin. We have God's Holy Word and His revelations in Jesus Christ. Moses was a prototype foreshadowing the One to come; God's promise to His people. We assume nothing. God reveals His Divine Will. We believe.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), April 24, 2004.

“The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a “NEW COVENANT” with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No longer will they have need to teach their friends and kinsmen how to know the LORD. All, from least to greatest, shall know me, says the LORD, FOR I WILL FORGIVE THEIR EVILDOING AND REMEMBER THEIR SIN NO MORE.” (Jer. 31:31-34)

All of the prophets of the Old Testament foretell of a “NEW COVENANT” that is to be made with Israel for the forgiveness of sin. Jeremiah tells us this New Covenant will be quite different from the Old. He tells us it will NEVER BE REPLACED, it will last forever. Its law will be carried inside the hearts of men and not written in stone as the Old Covenant was. The New Covenant will be so obvious in society that in will be ingrained in them and instruction will not be required.

This prophesy is completed in the person of Jesus Christ as confirmed in the “NEW” Testament - “And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the “NEW COVENANT” in my blood, which will be shed for you.” (Luke 22:20); and reconfirmed in Corinthians: “and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the “NEW COVENANT” in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” (1 Cor. 11:24-25)

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), April 24, 2004.

The point is that Christianity assumes there is no way to be forgiven your sins except through Christ, and Judaism has ways to be forgiven sins.

{No, Judaism teaches that only God can firgive sins, this is why when Jesus said "Thy sins are orgiven thee" it was considered blasphemy, as Jesus was effectively callign himself God.}-Zarove

Blood sacrifice for unintentional sins, charity and honest confession and request for forgiveness for intentional sins.

{Blood sacrifice was nessisary for ALL sin, includign intentional sin, and thier was still a penalty of the law to pay. This was neded with Jesus and his final Sacrifice.

Now, since Jesus IS the sacrifice before God that we must offer, that doesn't contradict, the earlier sacrifices just don't cut it any more.}-Zarove

So it's just stupid to say that only through Jesus's righteousness could our sins be forgiven.

{See above. Its only stupid if you actually don't fllow the loigic, and since you have to reject what Christaisn actually teahc in order to come to your own conlcusions whihc where predetermiend form the outset, then its no surprise.

Let me explan. God needed a sacrifice for forgiveness of sin, any sin, intentional or not. In the old days, this was facilitated by Animal Sacrifice. Nowadays, it is by Jesus. This is because Jesus was the best possible sacrifice, and nothgin else is better than Jesus. Thus, any other substitute at this statge woudl be fruitless.}-Zarove

The Torah clearly demonstrates other ways.

{The Torah demonstrares one way. Sacrifice. The Tprah was dsigned to lead up to Jesus and his sacrifice. Now we have the real sacrifice and dont need the lesser substitutes. Now God needs us to follow the real deal.}-Zarove

The other point is that Judaism believes it's possible for a human to be righteous, whereas Christianity does not.

{No, it doesn't. Judaism teahces that Humanity is NOT righeous and rbels agisnt God. Only reform Jews, the equivlent of Liberal Christaisn, teach that nonsence.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 25, 2004.