Maybe we’ve had it all wrong! Maybe those who claim salvation is only obtained through the intercession of Mary, Our Blessed Mother, have been right all along. The title for this thread was obtained from the new Vatican instructions concerning the Eucharist (paragraph 185), word-for-word.

In light of all the current controversy surrounding this topic, if the Vatican had wanted to avoid further confusion and debate, why didn’t they say this in a more clear and concise manner? In saying, “through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.”, in saying it in this manner, the Vatican has implied that the saving grace of Jesus Christ can “only” be obtained through the Blessed Virgin Mary for it mentions no other way or possibility.

Proponents of this new theory to have Mary officially recognised as something more than the Mother of God and as instrumental in salvation, must be celebrating such a direct and obvious statement, at such a volatile time in our Church concerning this matter, with jubilation. Why didn’t the Church say something like obtaining Jesus’ saving grace through Mary is only “one” way of many ways? What about the intercession of other saints? What about the intercession of our behalf of those who are living? What about good works? What about faith? Is Mary indispensable for our salvation? Is the only way to salvation through Mary? Is that what is being said here? Why has the Church said it in the way they have? Why even mention Mary in this instruction at all? After all, this is a letter about the Eucharist?

This is alarming. This doesn’t seem to me to be an innocent oversight on behalf of the Vatican. Could this be a conscious effort on their part to test the waters on a potential new doctrine: Mary - Woman of the Eucharist? What say you?

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), April 25, 2004

Answers

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

Bump!

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), April 25, 2004.

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

Ed this should help clarify the relationship between Mary and the Eucharist and why they are seen as inseperable.

http://www.udayton.edu/mary/resources/documents/EE.html

ps the Vatican never makes innocent oversights on matters of faith and morals ;)!

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 25, 2004.

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

Kiwi, thanks for the references, but they’ve done nothing to allay my fears. When the Pope uses the word “inseparable” meaning “impossible to separate or part”, to describe the relationship Mary has with God this is alarming to me. When the Church tells me that Mary cannot be separated out from God, it is a concept I have not heard until recently and a concept of God that I am not familiar with.

You are quite correct in stating the Vatican never makes “innocent oversights” which tells me a new dogma could be in the offing. There have been too many incidents in recent years where the Church could have used different language to describe the relationship Mary has with God but didn't. This is extremely alarming to me. I guess we can do nothing for the time being but wait and see what develops.

-- Ed (cathlic4444@yahoo.ca), April 25, 2004.

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

Lest anyone get the wrong idea from my last post, I haven’t thrown the towel in just yet. In my interpretation of what our Holy Father has said, he has joined the Church to the Eucharist and by association, Mary as well. However, he didn’t qualify his words sufficiently for me to rule out the eventual possibility of linking Mary even more closely with the Trinity, which I think he could have to clear up a lot of existing confusion, alarm and controversy.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), April 25, 2004.

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

Interestingly there were twelve drafts of this document before the final published article. The words in the final document have obviously been well thought-out.

I've masticated over the paragraph about the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary,'Woman of the Eucharist', several times. I still can't quite believe I'm interpreting the passage properly. If I am indeed understanding it correctly I'm extremely shocked and dismayed. Seems to me many people will be reflecting and pondering this particular area of this document

-- sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), April 25, 2004.

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

Hi Ed,

Personally, I think you may be reading too much into the words you quoted from the instruction. Saints like St. Louis DeMontfort have said that all graces flow through the Blessed Virgin and that she is the treasurer of God's grace, but what does that mean in a practical sense? Does it mean one must have a faithful devotion to the Blessed Virgin in order to obtain salvation? Is this what you think that Redemptionis Sacramentum is implying? IMHO, it isn't.

I don't see that the Congregation for Divine Worship implies that the saving grace of Jesus Christ can "only" be obtained through the Blessed Virgin Mary. In a sense, I guess that is true. It was through her "Fiat" and the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus became flesh and entered the world. In this way, He came in the world and saved us.

Through her prayers and intercession, the Church receives many graces. She is a member of the Mystical Body of Christ along with each one of us and all the saints. "If the Church and the Eucharist are inseparably united, the same ought to be said of Mary and the Eucharist." Pope John Paul II states this in his Encyclical Ecclesia De Eucharista. I think this is the context in which we should view Mary and the Eucharist and her "inseparability" with the Eucharist. She is, after all, a member of the Church.

IMHO, the point is that our Blessed Mother is united to us through Christ as a member of his Body, albeit more perfectly united than any of us are, and that through her intercession the Church receives grace. I don't think it implies that a person "must" be devoted to the Blessed Virgin in order to obtain the grace of perseverance, though it is certainly helpful. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what is the alarming part.

I guess I don't see anything that is new. To me, Mary is as indispensible to our salvation as the Incarnation was and the Church is. That is, not to say, that God cannot or will not work through other means if He so chooses to.

Just my two cents worth. Please let me know if I'm not understanding correctly what you're really saying.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), April 25, 2004.

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

Hi Ed I know what youre saying as its "news" to me too but then in all honesty Im entirely ignorant on these type of matters so I wouldnt take what I have to say to seriously. These two paragraphs make the clearest case to me all though people really need toi read his entire encylical to appreciate the "case" the Pope makes. The Pope does say hes teaching nothing new here perhaps Paul M might be able to clarrify.

ANyway the paragraphs that really hit hime for me

"In a certain sense Mary lived her Eucharistic faith even before the institution of the Eucharist, by the very fact that she offered her virginal womb for the Incarnation of God's Word. The Eucharist, while commemorating the passion and resurrection, is also in continuity with the incarnation. At the Annunciation Mary conceived the Son of God in the physical reality of his body and blood, thus anticipating within herself what to some degree happens sacramentally in every believer who receives, under the signs of bread and wine, the Lord's body and blood.

As a result, there is a profound analogy between the Fiat which Mary said in reply to the angel, and the Amen which every believer says when receiving the body of the Lord. Mary was asked to believe that the One whom she conceived “through the Holy Spirit” was “the Son of God” (Lk 1:30-35). In continuity with the Virgin's faith, in the Eucharistic mystery we are asked to believe that the same Jesus Christ, Son of God and Son of Mary, becomes present in his full humanity and divinity under the signs of bread and wine.

58. In the Eucharist the Church is completely united to Christ and his sacrifice, and makes her own the spirit of Mary. This truth can be understood more deeply by re-reading the Magnificat in a Eucharistic key. The Eucharist, like the Canticle of Mary, is first and foremost praise and thanksgiving. When Mary exclaims: “My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour”, she already bears Jesus in her womb. She praises God “through” Jesus, but she also praises him “in” Jesus and “with” Jesus. This is itself the true “Eucharistic attitude”.

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 26, 2004.

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

SOrry Ed I missed a point I wanted to make and which you probably already realise but for others wondering what Im talking about it may be worth making.

The way I read it ii simply that Mary understood the true nature of the Eucharist far more deeply than any other human being for a variety of reasons, which the Pope outlines , (two paragraphs of which I have pasted above).

Thus if we wish to come to a greater appreciation of the Eucharist what better way than to ask Mary for help? AS the Pope says

"The Magnificat expresses Mary's spirituality, and there is nothing greater than this spirituality for helping us to experience the mystery of the Eucharist. The Eucharist has been given to us so that our life, like that of Mary, may become completely a Magnificat!"

God Bless

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 26, 2004.

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

Sorry Im in over my head on this thread and rushed two replies which after actually thinking about it are far from satisfactory to me!-and probably not much use to anyone, especially after reading ANdys reply which is far more helpful . Please delete if possible Ed. Thankyou.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 26, 2004.

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

Kiwi,

I liked your explanations and quotes better than mine. I thought you explained what I was trying to say in a better way. Thanks.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), April 26, 2004.

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

On further reflection of the whole paragraph in question, I believe that the Church is saying that she wants us to pray for Mary's intercession that the 'reprobrated practices' that have occurred, i.e. the liturgical abuses, are stopped, in order that we may fully receive the Sacramental graces through the Eucharist. It's not that we need Mary's intercession to receive the graces, but that we should ask for her intercession regarding the problem of liturgical abuses.

Or am I 'barking up the wrong tree?'

God bless

Sara

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), April 26, 2004.

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

That's part of my understanding too Sara. I don't think you're barking up the wrong tree at all.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), April 26, 2004.

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

I think Sara has it just right. The problem is that the quote was taken out of context. Here is the whole sentence:

It is therefore the hope of this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments that also, by the diligent application of those things that are recalled in this Instruction, human weakness may come to pose less of an obstacle to the action of the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, and that with all distortion set aside and every reprobated practice removed,[292] through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

Now let me cut it up:

A) It is therefore the hope of this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments that

B) also, by the diligent application of those things that are recalled in this Instruction, human weakness may come to pose less of an obstacle to the action of the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, and that with all distortion set aside and every reprobated practice removed,[292]

C) through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”,

D) the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

If we look at the clauses and their intent I think the real meaning of the passage becomes clear and Ed has nothing to worry about. Let me do a condensed and clearer version to demontstrate this.

This is what we want (A), that the abuses stop (B), so that the presence of Christ will be show (D), and we ask this through the intercession of Mary (C).

Dano

-- Dan Garon (boethius61@yahoo.com), April 26, 2004.

Response to ...through the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, “Woman of the Eucharist”, the saving presence of Christ in the Sacrament of his Body and Blood may shine brightly upon all people.

Awesome summary Dano, as usual. Thanks.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), April 26, 2004.