If people of other faiths can be saved by good works, did not Christ die needlessly ? I understand that Vatican II now promotes the idea that "good" people can merit their own salvation by their works. Can you point to where in the bible does it say that we can be justified by works alone ?

-- sceptic (sceptic@email.com), April 27, 2004

Answers

bump

-- sceptic (sceptic@email.com), April 27, 2004.

that would be incorrect.

the vatican teaches that people who have led good lives, have not committed mortal sin, recognize a supernatural power (which is God), have lived according to the moral precepts of their beliefs, AND have not been properly introduced to the catholic faith may be saved by desire (ie, baptism/confession/communion by desire).

this comes from the fact that the person has had no exposure to the mysteries of Christ, but judging from the moral life they lead according to their beliefs, if they had been properly exposed to the christian church then they would have believed it and worshiped in truth.

once a person has been properly introduced to the truth of the catholic faith, to turn from that truth is a dangerous and risky thing to do.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), April 27, 2004.

The Church has never taught that a Christian could be saved only by works. The Church believes that two things are required faith and works. Why? Because this is what the Bible says. The Bible makes it clear that works and faith are required to be saved. People that say only one or the other is required are not taking the full gosple into consideration.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), April 27, 2004.

" the Vatican teaches that people who have led good lives, have not committed mortal sin......"

This is not true Paul! I'm sure 99.999% of the people living in the world have commited a mortal sin at one time or another.

-- - (David@excite.com), April 27, 2004.

We are justified (initial salvation) by grace alone. The process of salvation is continuing to follow Christ with our whole lives through faith AND works, both of which can only be done by the grace of God. We attain final salvation if we (by God's grace) persevere until the end. So essentially, salvation is by God's grace alone, which manifests itself in our lives.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 27, 2004.

I do believe that Jesus said to the adultress, "Your sins have been forgiven. Go and sin no more."

So, if someone does commit a mortal sin, confesses it with a sincere sorrow for that sin, and does not sin again, he or she can still go to heaven.

Jesus did not come to save the 'perfect' people who do not sin. He came to save the sinners and told us how we can be saved. Good works are part of our salvation too, but it is still by the grace of God that we are all saved. God does not expect perfection from us, but He does expect us to be sorry for our sins and strive to be holy. He wants us to be faithful to Him and obedient.

God is a loving and forgiving God.

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), April 27, 2004.

sceptic,

We can never be justified by works alone. This is not a Biblical idea. Even those who have "invincible ignorance" are saved by the grace of God. We cannot work our way to heaven, because our works would never suffice. Only the work of Christ, who is sinless, is sufficient for our salvation.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 27, 2004.

It seems to me that Catholics and protestants are closer than they care to admit on this one. The transcript of the justification debate between Scott Hahn and Dr. Robert Knudson seems to bear this out. I think the Catholic Church has a more readily comprehendable view. To be clear, I've known Catholics who misinterperet "faith and works" and protestants who misinterperet "faith alone" (also thought of as "works due to faith").

-- Mark Advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), April 27, 2004.

Catholics and Prtestnats generlaly do agree on this, and most, issues. Only the far afeild Prrotestants acruallythink its "Faith Alone". Jakc chick, for instance.

Most, however, teach that true faith yeilds good works, and good works helps to build storng faith. One builds the other, and without oen, the other dies.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 27, 2004.

So the fact that God is a jealous God and you could be worshipping Allah or Shiba or Krishna or Buddha or whatever doesn't matter ? It's funny that u say it's ok as long as you don't commit any mortal sins.

Err, that's a paradox. God is a jealous God and nowhere in the bible does it even begin to suggest that those who worship another god can be saved. You make your case even worse by saying it's better to be in ignorance than to be introduced to the catholic faith and turn from it.

Christ's death has fully paid the price for our sins. His work on the cross is the rock of my salvation. As a Catholic, you have to admit that deep within you, you don't have any anchor for your salvation because you have to strive to keep it, and you never know whether or not you will commit a mortal sin in the future. Despite all your prayers to Mary, despite all your prayers to the saints, despite your penance, your Mass, you have no anchor for your soul.

And yet, according to your traditions, not the scriptures, but your traditions because someone "told you so", you believe that one who has never heard of Christ, never believed into Christ, never accepted Him as Lord and Saviour of their life, never prayed to Mary, never prayed to the Saints, never gone to mass, etc etc etc, yet believes in some abstract objective God, that this person is saved.

I thoroughly reject such teachings. By such teachings Christ really died needlessly. You try to condition it by saying as long as they haven't committed mortal sins. I'm sorry but every man is a sinner, everyone has fallen short of the glory of God. The leaves did nothing for Adam and Eve, hence the Lamb had to be slain. The offering of the produce from the ground did nothing for Cain, hence His offering was rejected.

Why did Christ die ? Really ? For initial salvation ? For partial redemption ? I tell you, faith is to believe that He is and you are not. (Hebrews 11:6), no longer I but Christ (Gal2:20). Drop your traditions. Drop your hardened concepts. Get back to the bible. And rather than attempt to win an argument with a wild-card response "the catholic church is the one true church founded by Christ", stop using that as an excuse just because someone told you so.

-- sceptic (sceptic@email.com), April 28, 2004.

So the fact that God is a jealous God and you could be worshipping Allah or Shiba or Krishna or Buddha or whatever doesn't matter ?

{We do worship Allah. Allah is the Arabic word fr God, and is used n Christain and Jewish Bibles in that Language for God. Mohammad did not worhsip a different God than we do, he worship the God of Abraham.His veiws on God where merley mistaken.

Budhists don't worship Buddha. Buddha was seen as an enlightened teacher, and a sage, NOT as a divinity.Anyone worshippign Buddha is worshipping a man, and is a fool.And hat is accordign to Buddhism.

Those technical errors aside, you aren't relaly here to state anyhting akin to reasoned dialouge, you began withthe premise that Christaunity makes no sence, and then frm argumens to support the supposition, jst like the rest fo the internet atheists.If one argument fails, you will move onto the next,never allowoing yourself even to admit when a poitn was disporoven that you raised.

God's exstance is known tot he world, een if not Christyain, pepel know tha thwir is a creator who fashiopned the Universe. Soem deny this, like Atheists, but most recgnise that theur was a creator. Their is an instinct that draws us nigh unto God, just as thier is oen that causes us t rebel. Even in Hindu India, many Hindu;s renounce their pantheon and worhsip only th creator, though htey arn't Christain.

The Chrisyain religion teaches that those sincerely trying to be close to God, en if they don't know how, will be saved through desire.

You see, the religion isnt about who you worship so much as who you are. Jesus said it was not what went into the mohth theat defiles us, but what exists us. Try to understand then, that it is not so much what we do but who we are that is important. An excellent veiw of this is in C.S.Lewis's "The Last Battle", when the King of the Calmorenes ( Cannot remmeber his name) was saved and got to live int he New narnia at the end, even though he worshipped Tash, instead f Aslan, because his heart was pure,a nd he sincerely wanted to do the righ thing. He did not know, had not been properly told, of Aslan, and he kept his oath to Tash, not because he feared Tash, but out of personal Honour.

The allegory makes sence if you undestand the rleigions aim is to make us what we where meant to be, and not about worhsippign God. We worship God for tw reaoss, to give credit where redit is due, and because by so doing we become what we where meant to be.

Peopel who have no chance to become Christain can still develop a pure heart, it is just harder since Christainity is the insturction used to make pure hearts.}-Zarove

It's funny that u say it's ok as long as you don't commit any mortal sins.

{I didn't. And I htink that he was mistaken, as do most people on this board. Most claim that you can be saved if you sincerely seek God. ( No, God is not "The Christain God" onown only in Christainity, God is univerally Known.)and if you sincerley try to lead a life in accordance to that which is right.}-Zarove

Err, that's a paradox. God is a jealous God and nowhere in the bible does it even begin to suggest that those who worship another god can be saved.

{Correct, however, those who are saved that ont hear the word preached arent worhsippign another god.}-Zarove

You make your case even worse by saying it's better to be in ignorance than to be introduced to the catholic faith and turn from it.

{No, they don't.

You now make the idiotoc Scpetic claim " If they don hear the word they will be saved by default, theirfore lets burn all the bibels and sop preacign to save the world!" It doesnt work that way.

You must live the way God wants you to live, try sincerley to reach out to God, and have a pure mind.

The rleigion itsself isnt what is true, rather the rleigion teaches the truth, rather like a school. You learn righeousness form the rleigion, as well as the nature of God, but these things, both morals and the existance of God, are learable elsewhere. The Christain religion is just the best palce to learn of them not the only place.

However, you must still renounce all the other gods of this world, al the false ones, and follow only the creator and his morals.

An example of how this can be done is found in the nonChrisain writings of Plato, who elived only in the supreme God, and who expounded morals himself. Plaro sought God, and htough some of his ideas may have been worng, he sincerly made the effort.

You are simpley approachign this form the wrong angle to diliberatrly come to a false conclusion.}-Zarove

Christ's death has fully paid the price for our sins. His work on the cross is the rock of my salvation. As a Catholic, you have to admit that deep within you, you don't have any anchor for your salvation because you have to strive to keep it, and you never know whether or not you will commit a mortal sin in the future.

{I am not Catholic. Incedentally, Even Protetans shoudl be told that they can reject Christ themselves. Christ is the rock of my salvation, however, I stll have legs and can walk away form that rck any time I so choose.}-Zarove

Despite all your prayers to Mary, despite all your prayers to the saints, despite your penance, your Mass, you have no anchor for your soul.

{No Mary, no Saints, just God.}-Zarove

And yet, according to your traditions, not the scriptures, but your traditions because someone "told you so", you believe that one who has never heard of Christ, never believed into Christ, never accepted Him as Lord and Saviour of their life, never prayed to Mary, never prayed to the Saints, never gone to mass, etc etc etc, yet believes in some abstract objective God, that this person is saved.

{This is in scriptures.Form romans Chapter 2.

11. For there is no respect of persons with God.

12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13. (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.}-Zarove

I thoroughly reject such teachings. By such teachings Christ really died needlessly.

{No, he didnt. And you misundestand the concept. }-Zarove

You try to condition it by saying as long as they haven't committed mortal sins. I'm sorry but every man is a sinner, everyone has fallen short of the glory of God.

{I agree, and disagree with his earlier statement.}-Zarove

The leaves did nothing for Adam and Eve, hence the Lamb had to be slain. The offering of the produce from the ground did nothing for Cain, hence His offering was rejected.

{Or Cain was rejected becaue his own heart was nto pure... that is debated even tot his day.}-Zarove

Why did Christ die ? Really ? For initial salvation ? For partial redemption ?

{For remisisonof isn, but those that do not hear the word arent lost based on ignorance, and have a chance themselves. However, this chanc is wholy dependanton them TRYING to find God and not beign properly told of him. This is diferent.}-Zarove

I tell you, faith is to believe that He is and you are not. (Hebrews 11:6), no longer I but Christ (Gal2:20). Drop your traditions.

{What traditions?}-Zarove

Drop your hardened concepts.

{Such as justice and mercy form God?}-Zarove

Get back to the bible.

{I Read it dialy.}-Zarove

And rather than attempt to win an argument with a wild-card response "the catholic church is the one true church founded by Christ", stop using that as an excuse just because someone told you so.

{I don't. But Paul wirte under inspiration that those liign withoutthe law cna be a law unto themselves, if they tried ot meet the standards of God on their own.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), April 28, 2004.

Well written and thought out reply, Zarove.

-- Andy (aszmere@earthlink.net), April 28, 2004.

Zarove, you are so right when you say "true faith yeilds good works."

God does not want us to look for the work, He will send us the work to do for Him and it is up to us to respond to His leading.

We do good works because we are led by the Spirit of God. When God is in us, how can we not do good works for Him?

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), April 28, 2004.

sceptic,

You said you reject the teachings of invincible ignorance because they are not Scriptural. However, this is false. Besides the passage that Zarove presented in Rom. 2, here are two more:

John 9 (KJV) After Jesus healed the man born blind

32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. 33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. 34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. 35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. 39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

John 15
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin. God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 28, 2004.

Sceptic- Your message smacks of triumphalism, which is the enemy of all who consider themselves Christ's followers.

-- mark advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), April 28, 2004.

Christ died on the cross to save humanity from humanity's sin. But why did he command his apostles to teach all nations, baptise, and get the baptised to obey all his commands for if works were pointless?

In all his discourses about the final judgement not ONCE did he mention faith-alone-saves-you. Every single time he made the link between belief and action: which is the same point his apostle, St James makes: faith is proven in action! Work and faith are not two separate things but two aspects of the same person: you believe, so you work!

Otherwise Christianity would not be a moral system - and it wouldn't even require evangelization! If "work" had no place in the salvation of souls, none of the Gospel commandments would make sense nor would any of Christ's warnings about hell and condemnation either!

The fact is, our works - done because we believe - ARE the way HIS GRACE WON ON THE CROSS REACHES OUR SOULS! To think otherwise is simply not to think very clearly at all or make an account for Our Lord's actual words.

Peace

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), April 29, 2004.

and ... not only is all of that true, but works are also the principle means by which faith grows. How can a person's faith grow if he doesn't put it into action - if he doesn't DO anything? And action means works. So, faith generates works and works build faith. Therefore if you lack either one, you lack both. Which is why scripture repeatedly describes faith and works as inseparable, and as equally essential for salvation.

-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 29, 2004.

u think that if works don't save us they'd be pointless ? Absolutely not. Good works are an expression of God, that's what He desires through the church, the body of Christ. Not doing things out of fear of losing your salvation, but doing it because you love this one who has already saved you, and you wish to express his attributes, among which is love.

-- sceptic (sceptic@email.com), May 05, 2004.

u think that if works don't save us they'd be pointless ?

{No, they said that good works flwo naturally form true faith, and that the two are inseperable. One doesn't exist without the other.}- Zarove

Absolutely not. Good works are an expression of God, that's what He desires through the church, the body of Christ.

{Yes, that is what we said. Faith leads naturally to works, and they are, in the end, the same thing.}-Zarove

Not doing things out of fear of losing your salvation, but doing it because you love this one who has already saved you, and you wish to express his attributes, among which is love.

{So we agree. Good.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), May 06, 2004.