If the Church has closed the book on women's ordination because it says it does not have the authority to ordain women, isn't that heresy? The Church has the authority to do whatever it wants when it comes to matters outside of dogma, right? Is the impossibility of women to act in persona Christi in the sacramental priesthood really dogma?

Jesus was fully human, and fully God. He was a male, but was at the same time fully human. Do women not participate in the full humanity that Christ participates? This is really confusing me. Because if the Church says that it does not have the authority to ordain women, then that implies that it is dogma that women do not participate in the full humanity of Jesus, also implying that they are not fully human. And I don't buy that there is a full male humanity, and a full female humanity. That's nonsense, there has to be a better reason.

EC

-- EC (EC@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004

Answers

First of all you must note, that God wants us all to be co-partners in his plan of salvation. Now, God in his wisdom deliberately created man male and female for definite a purpose. Although, male and female are both equal in dignity, they are not equal anatomically, morphologically, sexually, psychologically, socially, etc., because God has ordained them different roles, none superior to the other, but complementry to one another and completing one another in every way whether family life or whether religious life (A symbol of the Trinitian union). The way we are made does not make us suitable for everything under the sun. A man may have more public exposure and a woman may have less, that does not make him greater before God. In the book of Exodus, in the battle with Amalek, Joshua had a more public role and Moses and Hur a more private one. Joshua fought Amalek and defeated him, but it was the nonfighting Moses atop a hill along with Hur whose intercession made that victory possible. Moses lifted his hands over the sea, but it was God who did parting. So behind every public action of a person there always another private person (unhidden from God). The hidden person who does his/her role well will receive greater glory from God. So according to God's plan, let very woman be submissive the man God has legitimately over her in her life, just as every man is supposed to be submissive to Christ, and Christ himself is submissive to God, so that God may reign in all. This is beautiful, and....the evil one knows it is not only beautiful, but dangerous to his kingdom.
So let be first be faithful ourselves as good men or a good women, not according man-made traditions nor according a permissive rebellious modern society, but according to principles laid by God in the Bible and the Church.
This role as a man and woman is temporary, only in this life. When we rise from the dead, there will no male or female, but we will be like angels. So, let us play our respective roles well, not deceived or provoked by the devil who will make blunt comparisons so that we be distracted from our God-ordained roles to be fruitful men and woman, instead be caught up in the rut of vainglory, pursuing wind all the days our very short life, and die foolishly/suddenly, achieving just death and decay. Then, you will clearly see everything, but then it will be too late. Better see now!

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), May 01, 2004.

Ever since I was a kid in Catholic school, I wanted to be a Nun. The authority they projected and the respect they received were attractive to so many of us youngsters. After years of wondering why it couldn't be and thinking how unfair it all was, I finally realized that if I had just accepted the Churches teaching about so many other things, not made the life altering mistakes, and concentrated on the life I could have lived, I would be so much better off now.

Plus, I think the habits are really cool.

-- mark advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), May 01, 2004.

mark,

Thanks for sharing. As I am considering the sisterhood in my future, that was encouraging and you made me smile. :)

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 01, 2004.

"If the Church has closed the book on women's ordination because it says it does not have the authority to ordain women, isn't that heresy?"

A: Heresy?? Heresy is denial of an article of the faith. If the Church had taught for 2,000 years that it DOES have the authority to ordain women, THEN the statement that it does not have that authority might constitute heresy. But since the constant teaching of the Church for 2,000 years has been that it does NOT have the authority to ordain women, and since the Word of God tells us that the Holy Spirit guides the Church to "all truth", therefore its teaching on the male priesthood is truth, not heresy.

"The Church has the authority to do whatever it wants when it comes to matters outside of dogma, right?"

A: Wrong! The Church has the profound responsibility of discerning the will of God in all matters which pertain to the spiritual welfare of its members. It is a channel of Gods will, not an independent entity.

"Is the impossibility of women to act in persona Christi in the sacramental priesthood really dogma?"

A: No, it isn't. But it is doctrine, and it is an article of the faith. As such it must be followed, and it cannot be changed.

"Because if the Church says that it does not have the authority to ordain women, then that implies that it is dogma that women do not participate in the full humanity of Jesus, also implying that they are not fully human."

A: So the 99.9% of men whom God does not call to the priesthood do not participate in "the full humanity of Jesus"? They are not fully human? Priests are the only complete human beings?? Every human being is called to fullness of spiritual life, which is attained only when a person is doing what God specifically calls that person to do.

"And I don't buy that there is a full male humanity, and a full female humanity. That's nonsense, there has to be a better reason."

A: There is a better reason. God said so. Jesus Christ, God, declared His intent that His priesthood would be limited to men, by His act of selecting a man twelve times out of twelve, in spite of the availability of many holy, spirit-filled women. Actions sometimes speak louder than words.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 01, 2004.

It seems that the Holy See has made the decision final on Priestly ordination of women.

There is however a school of thought on Christology call Wisdom Christology.

The basis is that not only was Christ the Word made man, but God's Wisdom made man. Wisdom in the Book of Wisdom was protrayed as a feminine quality.

St. Paul referenced the Wisdom of God several times, obviously familiar with the Book of Wisdom?

There is an arguable theology for the ordination of women, not to the priesthood, but to the diaconate.

Did the Vatican leave the door open on purpose?

Are they allowing theologians to formulate a sound theology?

One wonders.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), May 01, 2004.

"...it is doctrine, and it is an article of the faith. As such it must be followed, and it cannot be changed."

---Must be followed?...ok, I'm a loyal Roman Catholic, but Doctrine cannot be changed, eh? Of course it can, that's what doctrine is, changable Church teaching. To imply that women do not participate in the same fullness of humanity Jesus participated is dangerous. And that be the reason why the Church will not even discuss the issue when there is obviously a "voice of the people" calling for more dialogue? The line between Doctrine anbd Dogma is becoming dangerously grey.

Oh, and if you want me to bombard you with Biblical references to women as the original followers of Jesus, present at ressurection, and appointed to spread the Gospel, ill do that in a separate thread.

And yeah, Jesus and Wisdom theology is gorgeous. But i don't see how that only leads to room for the diaconate? Please explain why the theology of Jesus as the Wisdom of God might not also apply to Women in the priesthood?

EC

-- EC (EC@hotmail.com), May 02, 2004.

Doctrine cannot be changed, eh? Of course it can, that's what doctrine is, changable Church teaching.

BZZZZT... not quite right. both dogma AND doctrine are unchangable. the word you're looking for is DISCIPLINES. disciplines of the church are maleable items when it comes to faith. dogma and doctrine are concrete and must be adhered to (strangely, you are also required to adhere to all disciplines of the church as well).

the male priesthood falls in the range of doctrine. it is unchangable and non negotiable. sorry to say this, but youre going to have to deal with it.

To imply that women do not participate in the same fullness of humanity Jesus participated is dangerous.

again, nobody has ever implied this, except for those who advocate the female "priesthood." this movement implies that the female role isnt good enough and that women can only be validated if they fulfill a man's traditional role. if you ask me, its sad that feminism has, in its quest for equality, made being female a pitiable thing in the eyes of society.

And that be the reason why the Church will not even discuss the issue when there is obviously a "voice of the people" calling for more dialogue?

the voice of the people is irrelevant to church doctrine. what IS relevant is the voice of God. The doctrine has been declared, it is inspired. again, live with it, because thats the way it will always be, no matter what any number of mere mortals want.

The line between Doctrine anbd Dogma is becoming dangerously grey.

thats because it always has been. these two concepts are more similar than they are different, learn your church terminology.

Oh, and if you want me to bombard you with Biblical references to women as the original followers of Jesus, present at ressurection, and appointed to spread the Gospel, ill do that in a separate thread.

no need, i know as much about the first nuns as i need to know. but then as i already said, the feminist movement has made it unnacceptable for these holy women to fulfill their role in ministry and still be respected, so it is understandable that you must portray them as having a man's role to feel that they can be respected. i urge you to release this anti female sentiment and realize that this is one place where church teaching is immutable and must be followed.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), May 02, 2004.

Let me be honest, this discussion has been very helpful for me. I've been trying to develop an informed understanding of the theology of ordination. By taking the position of somebody arguing for women's ordination, and using the statements that have been used against me in the past, I've been able to understand more what the Church teaches. I hope you don't feel like I've wasted your time, you have in fact helped me a lot. I still can't say that I've been convinced either side of the argument, but at least I know a little more.

There is one thing though. I know, as a matter of fact, that doctrine can change. You keep telling me that doctrine is unchangable, dude, but you're not helping anybody when you say that. Yes, it is true that we must follow doctrine, and that doctrine may be revealed by God, but, cmon! that is something that every 8th grader learns in Catholic school, doctrine involves matters of discipline that may change over time!

I like what you have said when it comes to gender roles, but know that that argument does not do it for most people. When you say that its a shame that feminists tend to belittle their femininity, thats a good point, but then you seem blind to the fact that the role of men as decision makers in the Church causes problems for women. its very simple, women want to participate in making decisions when it comes to their Church! I'll argue "complimentarity" and ill argue that women's role in the Church is important, but I refuse to argue that women's role in the Church involves NEVER MAKING DECISIONS.

thanks for your help

EC

-- EC (EC@hotmail.com), May 02, 2004.

Doctrine cannot and does not change. Ever. Our understanding of various doctrinal beliefs can increase over time through additional study, but the Church has no authority to change the essence of any doctrinal belief because God is the source of all such doctrine, and the Church is divinely commissioned to teach and preserve it. Disciplines on the other hand, such as rules for fasting and abstinence, the order of the Mass, the logistics of celebrating the sacraments, etc. are made by the Church and are therefore subject to change by the Church as the Church deems necessary for the good of the faithful.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 02, 2004.

You can say "our understanding increases" all you want, it still means that it changes. How come you still haven't addressed the fact that "a woman's role" just always seems to conveniently fall into the category of "decision making power." I've never heard anybody give reasons to justify that. I don't think anybody ever will.

EC

-- EC (EC@hotmail.com), May 03, 2004.

EC,
Paul said, "Church has no authority to change the essence of any doctrinal belief". Which is true. The essence of any doctrine does not change. I defy you to find an instance where it has. You really won't be able to find one. Many people before you have tried and failed. You are coming across as arrogant by the way.

And, oh yea, a LOT of women have had decision making authority in the Catholic Church. You need to read more history, or I am misunderstanding you.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 03, 2004.

How says women don't have desicion making power in the Catholic Church. You people need to take a real look at the Vatican. This past week a nun was made an Under-Secretary in one of the more powerful Congregations. The Under-Secretary is the third highest spot in a congregation. Many vatican observers think that this will pave the way for a woman becoming Prefect of a Congregation.

Also, just because one is a priest doesn't mean that the priest has decision making power. Most priests will never have that kind of power because most won't become Bishops. However, decision making power just isn't limited to Bishops. It is also given to nuns and laypeople. As we have seen with this nun. So all those feminists that claim that the Church is just this male only club are wrong. I believe that they just don't want to take the time to see the real culture of the Vatican.

-- Scott (papasquat10@hotmail.com), May 04, 2004.

EC,

as paul M so accurately stated, doctrine never changes, although it can grow.

for example: we say killing is wrong. in modern times the practice of abortion came about and that has been condemned as an OUTGROWTH of the fact that killing is wrong. THUS we believe that both abortion and killing are wrong, the fact that the doctrine grew changes nothing of the past.

as bill said, if you think there are any doctrines that have ever changed then please feel free to try and present one. but fundamentally you have a serious misunderstanding between the doctrine and discipline.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), May 04, 2004.