TERRIBLY SHOCKING pictures.

It's about time that we all as Catholics condemn the abuses commited by American Soldiers to Iraki prisoners.

Of course we ought to dondemn all abuses to prisoners or other people in every corner of the world. Is that a sign of decadence in the so called "civilized nations"? Are American an Brittish soldiers the only ones to torture people? I wonder.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 10, 2004

Answers

BUMP

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 10, 2004.

Enrique,

Those pictures and the details of the abuse of Iraqi prisoners shock and sicken most especially members of the US military. It's truly a stain on the US' honor and reputation.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), May 10, 2004.

In our country those who torture prisoners (or anyone else) get fired, court marshalled, and thrown in prison. In most other countries - those now expressing outrage included - torturers get promoted!

In our country we are constantly, obsessively going over and over about whether or not we are moral, or decent, or good...whereas in other countries and cultures, there is NO DOUBT AT ALL that "all evil" resides in the USA and that the regime and clan are innocent and good and can do nothing wrong.

In the USA, the Media refused to show pictures of 9/11 victims jumping out of windows because it was "too graphic" and they refused to show the charred and torn bodies of those 4 American workers in Fallujah "because it was too graphic"...but now they're showing naked Iraqis being humiliated... and it's NOT TOO GRAPHIC????

Anything that makes Americans ashamed, and feel guilty while stoking the self-righteousness of angry Muslims is OK. Anything that may provoke Americans to anger...bad.

Anyone see the double-standard here?

When dictators shoot and maim and assault the freedom of their whole populations...not a single peace-nik marches in protest. When America actually does something about tyranny and repression...the streets are full of people in high moral dungeon demanding "pull out" and peace at all costs! doesn't anyone see something funny about this?

Like, peace-niks aren't afraid of protesting a democratic regime but are afraid of protesting a murderous one...so they beat up on the democratic one with vitriolic rage...while being absolutely mute about the really bad one. It's kind of like environmentalists getting angry about American loggers while completely giving Chinese and Indian (and Russian) strip-miners and tyrannical polluters a COMPLETE pass! Kyoto would never, ever, have held China, India, or Russia accountable to the draconian environmental standards!

Yes, a double-standard of morality: anything that promotes tyranny is good, anything that helps the USA is bad. Any wonder that many of these agitators are hold-over marxists still yearning for Stalin?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), May 10, 2004.

In our country those who torture prisoners (or anyone else) get fired, court marshalled, and thrown in prison. In most other countries - those now expressing outrage included - torturers get promoted!

This is true, I think, for every country in the Middle East outside of Israel, and now Iraq.

-bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 10, 2004.

Joe, I agree with everything you just said AND I hope we will continue to obsess about "whether we are moral, or decent, or good." These pictures from the prison are disgusting, and those responsible will get the punishment they are due (probably more). We do condemn these abuses!

Enrique, You can't possibly believe US and UK soldiers are the only ones to "torture" people, so I must have misunderstood your question? But as regards torture. What does torture mean to you? To me I think of electrical shock, pulling fingernails, cutting off digits etc. I am not saying there wasn't any torture in that prison, but most evidence so far, points to abuse. The pictures looked more like pornography, which in hindsight, perhaps, shouldn't be so surprising. Our society is awash in pornography, our young soldiers have grown up with it, yet it is still taboo in Muslim society. Thus situations are ripe for some decadent US, UK soldiers, to abandon professionalism, and attempt to humiliate Iraqi- -al Qaeda prisoners with pornographic poses, and appear to enjoy it, which seems to be the most galling.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 10, 2004.

Interesting talk by the President today on this topic.

In January, shortly after reports of abuse became known to our military, an investigation was launched. Today, several formal investigations led by senior military officials are underway. Secretary Rumsfeld has appointed several former senior officials to review the investigations of these abuses. Some soldiers have already been charged, and those involved will answer for their conduct in an orderly and transparent process. We will honor rule of law. All prison operations in Iraq will be thoroughly reviewed to make certain that such offenses are not repeated.

Those responsible for these abuses have caused harm that goes well beyond the walls of a prison. It has given some an excuse to question our cause and to cast doubt on our motives. Yet, who can doubt that Iraq is better for being free from one of the most bloodiest tyrants the world has ever known? Millions of Iraqis are grateful for the chance they have been given to live in freedom -- a chance made possible by the courage and sacrifice of the United States military.

We have great respect for the people of Iraq and for all Arab peoples -- respect for their culture and for their history and for the contribution they can make to the world. We believe that democracy will allow these gifts to flourish. But freedom is the answer to hopelessness and terror; that a free Iraq will lead the way to a new and better Middle East; and that a free Iraq will make our country more secure.

I understand the difficulty of the mission of our men and women in uniform. They're facing an enemy in sand and heat and blasting winds, often unable to tell friend from foe. I know how painful it is to see a small number dishonor the honorable cause in which so many are sacrificing. What took place in the Iraqi prison does not reflect the character of the more than 200,000 military personnel who have served in Iraq since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

All Americans know the goodness and the character of the United States Armed Forces. No military in the history of the world has fought so hard and so often for the freedom of others. Today, our soldiers and sailors and airmen and Marines are keeping terrorists across the world on the run. They're helping the people of Afghanistan and Iraq build democratic societies. They're defending America with unselfish courage. And these achievements have brought pride and credit to this nation.

I want our men and women in uniform to know that America is proud of you, and that I'm honored to be your Commander-in-Chief.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 10, 2004.

It bears repeating:

"No military in the history of the world has fought so hard and so often for the freedom of others. "

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 10, 2004.

since this is a speech, it is best to listen to it here.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 10, 2004.

Brian, when I suggested the war on Iraq might possibly involve sodomy, you said I sounded like "typical liberal hyperbole". Looks like far from hyperbole, things are far worse than I could have imagined. Yes it is galling that the abusers not only appear to be enjoying it, they smile with thumbs up for the camera, convinced that others will enjoy seeing it too and applaud them. Why? Because they've swallowed Bush's absurd line that the Iraqis were responsible for the attacks of 11/9/01. The people being abused are not Al-Quaeda members. Many of them were pulled off the streets at roadblocks. The abuse was not even a "softening-up" process prior to interrogation. Many of them were released after the abuse without ever having been asked any questions.

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), May 10, 2004.

Peter,
The perputrators will be tried and punished. Saddam would have given them a raise in pay. That is the difference between us and them. Sure there are always problems, but the US is a noble country founded upon Christian beliefs, and, in the long run, it shows. It always has and, with the help of God, it always will.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 10, 2004.

In case you think Saddam was any different from other thugs who want power in Iraq: Sadr is now preaching that followers of his can rape Coalition female soldiers at will. So that is the kind of Islam we would leave Iraq to if we left. Nice heh?

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 10, 2004.

Peter, I don't think I responded quite as you said I did. You said: Brian, have you considered that the invasion and occupation of Iraq probably involved all of... and, for all I know, sodomy, given the US military's "don't ask and don't tell" policy.

I responded: Peter, your last post parroted typical liberal talking points. You sound like Elpidio and Anti-Bush. I thought you were different than that. I didn't realize we would be re-hashing just war theory and war for oil hysteria. Sigh!

So no, I didn't indicate that sodomy was "typical liberal hyperbole." I didn't address it at all. You were talking about sodomy within the US military, and I have always shared this concern because of women being in the military and the pornographic society we live in. Be that as it may, when I first heard about the prison photos, I thought of you and your quote right away.

Peter, did Bush actually say that "Iraqis were responsible for the attacks of 11/9/01?" And do we know that these prisoners were not al- Qaeda but merely pulled off the streets at roadblocks for no good reason, and were not being softened up for interrogation? I had not heard this, but maybe you are more up on it than me.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 10, 2004.

Bill, no one denies that Saddam was far, far worse. Please do not imply that I think otherwise. My opinion of Saddam should be abundantly clear to you by now. My point, then and now, is that even a so-called "just" war inevitably produces various types of sin and evil in great quantity. Like you I would like to believe that "the US is a noble country founded upon Christian beliefs" but many recent events provide evidence to the contrary.

Brian, when I asked what you thought I was "parroting" in my post which mentioned sodomy, you replied, "what you were saying in that paragraph sounded like...typical liberal hyperbole".

Yes I also was basically thinking of sodomy WITHIN the military. I didn't envisage US soldiers sodomising prisoners or forcing them to perform homosexual acts.

Brian said "Peter, did Bush actually say that "Iraqis were responsible for the attacks of 11/9/01?""

Er, isn't that supposed to be the reason why this was a "just war"? To "defend" the USA from the attacks of 11/9/01 and pre-empt similar future attacks?

No I don't know for sure that none of the abused prisoners has any connexion to Al-Quaeda but it seems very unlikely. I don't know of any claim that any of them are Al-Quaeda, something I assume would be loudly trumpeted if there was any evidence of it. I never suggested there was "no good reason" for their arrest. I have read a couple of accounts by abused prisoners who said they were arrested at roadblocks, abused in prison, then released without interrogation.

-- Peter K (ronkpken@yahoo.com.au), May 10, 2004.

Peter, you say: Er, isn't that supposed to be the reason why this was a "just war"? To "defend" the USA from the attacks of 11/9/01 and pre-empt similar future attacks?

So your answer is: No, Bush didn't say that. Actually al-Qaeda is responsible for the 9-11 attacks. Saddam's government provided support and training for al-Qaeda. The Taliban government provided support and sanctuary for al-Qaeda.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 11, 2004.

Brian, you said - "Enrique, You can't possibly believe US and UK soldiers are the only ones to "torture" people, so I must have misunderstood your question? But as regards torture. What does torture mean to you? To me I think of electrical shock, pulling fingernails, cutting off digits etc. I am not saying there wasn't any torture in that prison, but most evidence so far, points to abuse. The pictures looked more like pornography, which in hindsight, perhaps, shouldn't be so surprising. Our society is awash in pornography, our young soldiers have grown up with it, yet it is still taboo in Muslim society. Thus situations are ripe for some decadent US, UK soldiers, to abandon professionalism, and attempt to humiliate Iraqi- -al Qaeda prisoners with pornographic poses, and appear to enjoy it, which seems to be the most galling. "

--

To view some of the released pictures - http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

The abuse not only consisited of sexual humiliation, but torture, rape and in some cases murder. Those pictures and videos have not been released yet.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/200405 08/IRAQABUSESB08/TPInternational/Americas

A contrite Donald Rumsfeld apologized yesterday to Iraqi prisoners abused by their American captors, and warned that the outrage will worsen if other images of the actions of U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison become public.

"There are a lot more photographs and videos that exist," the U.S. Defence Secretary told the Senate armed services committee. "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse. That's just a fact. I mean, I looked at them last night and they're hard to believe," he continued glumly, without going into detail.

U.S. Republican Senator Lindsey Graham told reporters yesterday that "the American people need to understand that we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience." He did not elaborate.

http://news.yahoo.com/news? tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040509/ap_on_go_co/prisoner_abuse_congress_9

Even more cruel images and videos are yet to come.

Bracing for what the defense secretary has described as "sadistic" pictures, Congress will see the unreleased photos showing Iraqi prisoners being abused by U.S. soldiers

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news? tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040510/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_prisoner_abuse&cid=542 &ncid=716

"All the guards are smiling, they're taking all these pictures, because they know that nobody above them is going to object. They have to know that somebody up there is agreeing to it," Sen. Patrick Leahy.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news? tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040510/ap_on_re_eu/red_cross_prisoner_abuse&cid=51 8&ncid=716

The Red Cross saw American officers mistreating Abu Ghraib prisoners by keeping them naked in total darkness in empty cells, and up to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake, according to a report disclosed Monday.

"Arresting authorities entered houses usually after dark, breaking down doors, waking up residents roughly, yelling orders, forcing family members into one room under military guard while searching the rest of the house and further breaking doors, cabinets and other property," the report said.

"Sometimes they arrested all adult males present in a house, including elderly, handicapped or sick people," it said. "Treatment often included pushing people around, insulting, taking aim with rifles, punching and kicking and striking with rifles." - That's just the process of arresting, whether innocent ones or suspects.

It's sad to see some people don't understand the nature of this torture, and the more horrible ones which are not yet released to the public. I don't think any christian would take this lightly, or think it's nothing just because they are on the other side. I don't have the heart to see the more sadistic images even if they are released to the public, infact I still don't have the stomach to accept that such things were done there.

God bless the soldier (I don't know his name) who informed the authorities about these atrocities. It takes a good heart and a lot of courage. A comfort is, the president understood the seriousness and I believe that he really meant the apology, and he'd indeed do whatever necessary to bring those responsible to justice. Also, most of the soldiers there condemn this act. Those who commited these atrocities disgraced their fellow soldiers, and their country, and I believe they'll be brought before justice.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), May 11, 2004.

THE U.S. SOLDIER ON THE IRAQ STREETS
Found on NRO's The Corner

Outside of the president, probably no one is angrier about this Abu Ghraib mess than the U.S. serviceman. A loyal Corner reader and American patriot serving over in Iraq e-mails, "I'm actually ashamed that those individuals wore the same uniform as I do." He continues:

Things are hot here in a number of ways. It's over 100 degrees now every day and I suppose that will continue through the summer. The prison scandal has a lot of us angry - because of the disgusting behavior and because of the finger pointing and lack of accountability. If one more of these clowns claims that they didn't have proper training or were ordered to participate in this I think I'll be sick. Training doesn't give you common sense or respect for human dignity. If they were ordered to do it and felt it was wrong, where was their report of the conduct up the chain of command? This was a systemic problem that the general running the show admits she wasn't aware of - so many things went wrong here that it is staggering.

-bill
Ways you can support the troops (American, Australian, British, Canadian & Polish)

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 11, 2004.

So if this was all done that long ago, where were the honest members of the media to bring this to light that long ago? If they knew, why didn't they tell?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 11, 2004.

"...video posted Tuesday on an Islamic militant Web site appeared to show a group affiliated with al-Qaida beheading an American in Iraq, saying the death was revenge for the prisoner-abuse scandal."

Were at war, gang...

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 11, 2004.

Why is it that the good should be held accountable for the sins of the guilty? Since when should HOMOSEXUALS IN THE MILITARY, doing what homosexuals do - sodomizing people - be given a total pass, called "victims" when they abused and tortured those prisoners on their own sweet time, on their own sweet volition, with no one forcing them to take photos or pose for the camera?

Bush and the military is responsible for the uncalled for, abhorrent behavior of a bunch of gay soldiers? How so? Do you believe in the moral theory that guilt is not personal and that association is all that's needed to apply moral culpability? Thus all soldiers are sodomites (except the sodomites) and Bush is to blame, personally, for the crimes he didn't command, desire, or even think about?

What kind of moral calculus is being used here???

This is like blaming the Pope for the priests abuse scandal when he had spent 25 years teaching Catholic sexual morality, working to restore morality and improve priestly formation!

No, these torturers were acting in the exact same spirit of the LEFT gay and feminist rights movements - their denigration of others, their total disregard for human rights, (except their own) and their crass desire to humilitate... and yet they give a black eye to the RIGHT who is trying to bring democracy to Iraq and thus drain the swamp of Middle Eastern tyranny and poverty that everyone claimed "is the root cause of terrorism" in 2002!

-- joe (joestong@yahoo.com), May 11, 2004.

They were yelling 'God is Great' while they were beheading him...

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 11, 2004.

WASHINGTON, May 11 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The Council on American- Islamic Relations (CAIR) today condemned the murder of an American civilian in Iraq by a group claiming links to Al-Qaeda.

A video posted on an Internet web site shows the beheading of a Philadelphia man working as a contractor in Iraq whose body was found on a highway overpass in Baghdad on Saturday. The group that carried out the killing said it was in retaliation for the ongoing Iraq prison abuse scandal.

In its statement, the Washington-based Islamic civil rights and advocacy group said:

"We condemn this cold-blooded murder and repudiate all those who commit such acts of mindless violence in the name of religion. We call on people of all faiths and cultures to work together for peace and reconciliation, not war and destruction."

CAIR, America's largest Islamic civil liberties group, has 26 regional offices and chapters nationwide and in Canada.

---

NOTE: CAIR offers an e-mail list designed to be a journalist's window to the American Muslim community. Subscribers to the list, called ISLAM-INFONET, receive news releases and other materials dealing with American Muslim positions on issues of importance to our society.

To SUBSCRIBE to ISLAM-INFONET, go to: http://cair.biglist.com/islam-infonet/

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 11, 2004.

Joe you said "they abused and tortured those prisoners on their own sweet time, on their own sweet volition, with no one forcing them to take photos or pose for the camera? Bush and the military is responsible for the uncalled for, abhorrent behavior of a bunch of gay soldiers? How so? Do you believe in the moral theory that guilt is not personal and that association is all that's needed to apply moral culpability? Thus all soldiers are sodomites (except the sodomites) and Bush is to blame, personally, for the crimes he didn't command, desire, or even think about?"

They said they were obeying orders from their comanders. If Bush didnt even think aboout it why did he insist 2 years ago that he wont let any war crimes by US soldiers be tried in the International Criminal Court? USA were the only democratic country that didn't agree to it. Why does US hold prisoners only in countries like Marocco and Cuba where noone can object to toture, not in USA itself? Why did the army cover up and deny for months til the photos leaked out from emails? Why is the US army investigating itself? not independant investigaters? He knew alright.

Anyway we should know from the history of the inquistion that toture is not only evil but its no good for getting info out of someone. They wont tell the truth they only say what they think will make you stop toturing.

-- Gerry (gerryg44@aol.com), May 13, 2004.

Prison abuse 'more serious blow' than Sept. 11, Vatican official says

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- The abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers is a "more serious blow to the United States than Sept. 11," the Vatican's leading foreign affairs specialist said. Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo said the prison scandal would fuel hatred of the West among Arab populations, with possible repercussions for Christians in the region. "The torture? A more serious blow for the United States than Sept. 11. Except that this blow was not inflicted by terrorists, but by the Americans themselves," he said in an interview published May 12 by the Rome newspaper La Repubblica. Archbishop Lajolo, the Vatican's equivalent of a foreign minister, said the reports and photos of alleged torture by U.S. guards and soldiers in Iraq represented "a tragic episode in relations with Islam."

-- Gerry (gerryg44@aol.com), May 14, 2004.

Gerry, you are stupid. You believe the perpetrators of the torture? "They said" the very people who were doing illegal tortures - illegal under the code of Military justice...and YOU BELIEVE THEM?????

You seem to believe that Bush directly ordered US soldiers to torture Iraqis...or that the SecDef did? Or General Myers? What planet are you on (or what are you smoking?)

You can't seem to come to the awareness that US soldiers aren't 4 year olds. They do have free will and are capable of doing things on their own! But you're so desperate to paint the whole US as evil, that instead of blaming the people who did things on their own, you are willing to give them A COMPLETE PASS while condemning everyone BUT the ones who did the crimes!

Gerry you also seem to believe that Bush is simultaneously omniscient...and an idiot. He knows "everything" and nothing. He knew positively 100% that there were no WMD...when your hero, Bill Clinton and France and Germany and Russia and China's intelligence agencies...and the UN all believed that they did! Haha! Bush was smarter than everyone right??? but then of course he's an idiot who doesn't know anything...

When it suits you to think he's omniscient and directly involved in the mistakes or dastardly deeds of others, he is. When it suits you to think he's a complete puppet and idiot, he is. Liberals don't need logic.

Well, then, I suppose you don't believe it's at all possible that 7 soldiers can manage to have sex and abuse prisoners in a maze of a massive prison can they...without ALL their commanders knowing and approving of it huh? Somehow the Whitehouse is plugged in to what all 120,000 troops do, think, and desire huh?

Of course, they know what you ate for breakfast too because the Black Helicopters always hover over your home huh? *except when Bill was president when all goodness and harmony and joy existed in the universe and there was no danger, saddness or harm to anyone and the "world loved us so much" that they kept blowing us up.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), May 14, 2004.

Gerry, your understanding of the INQUISITION is also appalling. Torture wasn't the only thing going on. There were also 4 separate "inquisitions" (Investigations) over 400 years in 4 countries... Only the Spanish Inquisition get's much play because of English propaganda in their war with Spain...but even there, of 100,000 known cases (records of each court case were kept), less than 2% were capital (i.e. ending in execution) and most people were let go.

Not every one tried by the Inquisition was tortured. And more people actually preferred a Church tribunal than a secular one because of the inherent safeguards not found in civil courts.

But alas, you probably don't know anything about the history of these times except what you read in public school history books right?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), May 14, 2004.

Oh and another thing. Lots of people have this conception that the United States never makes mistakes - in anything - so if something bad happens, if an atrocity occurs or a government official - no matter how low on the totem pole commits a crime, it's REALLY a vast government plot, a huge conspiracy, planned way in a advance by evil super geniuses who control their robotic henchmen who are thus "really" victims, except when they're not!

Thus, no other country on earth is to blame for anything - nor individuals either. Evil itself arised only because some sinister secret US government project screws with people's free will forcing otherwise nice people to commit atrocities - which the brave and maverick News Media then reveal to the innocent world for their daily shock treatment.

But naturally the above didn't happen when Bill Clinton was president... nor did the "all evil in the world is the US' fault" theory get much traction when the Democratic party ran the show.

So when Bill Clinton ordered Les Aspen (secdef) to de-escalate Somalia, and Les Aspen orders the Army to pull out its tanks and APCS...but then send in unarmored rangers to attack the country's strongest warlord in the middle of his own base...and we get BlackHawk down... who is to blame? Of course, NOT Les Aspen or Bill Clinton...but the commander on the ground who was ordered to attack without having armor... and everyone sniffs and shrugs and sighs. But when 7 low level soldiers break dozens of army regulations and film themselves doing it (!) it's somehow a massive US government conspiracy ordered by Bush and seconded by Rumsfeld, with thousands of people "in on it" "covering it up" even while investigating it????

Only a Liberal would see this as a realistic scenerio because again, Liberals don't do Logic and they don't believe in a world of cause and effect, free will or chance...except when it suits them!

Notice how when Hillary Clinton mysteriously got hold of 500 FBI files of every single REPUBLICAN senator, congressman and government official... it was a "clerical mistake" and no one even knew who hired Craig Livingstone! And when 100,000 emails from Al Gore's office vanished, along with all their backups... it was a "glitch"! And no one called for his head or Clinton's to roll...

When bad things happen while Democrats are in control...like in Palm Beach...it's never considered to be their fault - and no conspiracy is involved. They chalk it up to simple human error, innocent mistakes, poor training, etc. and we're all supposed to just shrug our shoulders, laugh and feel good that everyone "at least tries so hard and has the best of intentions"....until of course Republicans take over, in which case EVERY mistake is sinister, evil, and a plot!

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), May 14, 2004.

What is it with you guys who believe everything bush tells you that you have to call everyone who disagress stupid and ignorant?

Don’t put words in my mouth I never sdaid Bush directly ordered US soldiers to torture Iraqis...but its oviuos he envisage that things like this would happen and he wanted to make sure it was covered up. The soldiers wouldn’t have photographed it if they thought theyd get in trouble

I aint no liberal and Clinton aint my hero I never voted for him. And I never went to public school and I never believe conspiracy theories. You’re the one who seems to believe there s some conspiracy beteween bin laden and Saddam when there bitter enemies. So you can can your patronising. You and a couple of others think you OWN this site and no-one can disagree. You don’t.

And I know everything you said about the inquistion I don’t know why you think I have to be told it again. All I said was we should know from the history of the inquisition that toture is useless.

-- Gerry (gerryg44@aol.com), May 14, 2004.

you have made your own picture very ugly in our eyes muslims , we thougt that you are going to bring a real freedom and democracy to our reagin , but thinking twice we will be very happy to see you leaving our country because you are nothing better than SADDAM , regarding the beheaded american civilean we as muslims condemn what has happened by those terrorists , but this is only a reaction to your soldeirs action ,you blame your selves first .

-- ahmed abbas (zdravo @yahoo.com), May 15, 2004.

ahmed abbas, Saddam murdered people in the prisons and then gave money to those guards who murdered. We have and will arrest such people and they will be in our prisons. Saddam used drills and drilled into prisoner's hands, cut off fingers, pushed people off rooftops, and did things to prisoners I cannot write on this board because they were so ugly. Saddam was responsible for the deaths of about 1 million people. You cannot compair what these stupid guards did to what Saddam did! Think man! Don't just mouth off!

We have no intention of staying in Iraq any longer than necessary, but if we leave now, we will leave you to the thugs running around today burning shops, extorting money and women. Unless you are a thug yourself, you don't want that either.

Democracy takes time, have patience. We are now helping you get rid of your thugs, when July comes you will have your own government (at least a start of one). If you don't need us then, then ask us to leave and we will.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 15, 2004.

Gerry:
We never told you everything Bush says is true. You're wrong; we believe the facts as they are slowly coming back from the middle east. The leftist news media has done all they can to distort the facts, to discredit this administration during an election year. It doesn't take a major in political science to see the strategy. When we see Kennedy and Kerry and Pelosi, et al; daily screaming outrageous anti-Bush propaganda. And the media lapping it up, repeating it morning & night. They never dwell on any positive aspect. Neither do you. WHY?

Are you defending Saddam Hussein? Did it disappoint you when he was defeated in barely 3 weeks; after he had sworn our armies would drown in their own blood? Is it possible you were made unhappy, because he couldn't carry out his threat?

Who told our coalition and G.I.s they were NOT to hoist an American flag or a Brit flag anywhere in Afghanistan or in Iraq? --It was our President. And Tony Blair. Because our goal was never to take over a sovereign country. Our goal was to remove a CANCER --a malignant tumor called Saddam. And WE HAVE! God be praised!

However, crybabies like you are angry now, because we had no ''RIGHT'' to bring an end to the greatest danger the world has know since the cold war.

You have to confess: You would rather Saddam Hussein's rights were respected, than to have his torture chambers, rape rooms, and mass murders flushed out. By our armed forces, whom you consider unchristian.

You'd think we had been the evil part of this war. You'd think Gerry was on the side of terrorist threats and suicide bombers.

I wonder what gets into people like you. And trying to involve the Catholic Church! In favor of destruction for America!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 15, 2004.

THE PRESIDENT (5/15/04): Good morning. This week, our nation was sickened by the murder of an American civilian, Nicholas Berg. The savage execution of this innocent man reminds us of the true nature of our terrorist enemy, and of the stakes in this struggle. The terrorists rejoice in the killing of the innocent, and have promised similar violence against Americans, against all free peoples, and against any Muslims who reject their ideology of murder. Their barbarism cannot be appeased, and their hatred cannot be satisfied. There's only one way to deal with terror: We must confront the enemy and stay on the offensive until these killers are defeated.

And this is precisely what our armed forces, and the forces of our coalition, are doing. In and around Fallujah, U.S. Marines are conducting joint patrols with local Iraqis to take back the city from Saddam loyalists and foreign fighters and other militants. In nearby towns, Marines are conducting raids to disrupt enemy attacks on supply routes and to root out anti-coalition fighters.

To the south, in and around the cities of Najaf and Karbala, U.S. Army soldiers and Iraqi security forces are systematically dismantling the illegal militia led by the radical cleric al Sadr that has incited violence and attempted to seize control. Iraqi security forces ejected elements of this militia from a mosque in Karbala that was being used to store ammunition. The Iraqi people oppose the actions of this illegal militia, and Shia religious leaders have called on it to withdraw. Recent days have seen demonstrations in which ordinary Iraqis have taken to the streets, calling on the militia to withdraw from their cities and towns.

As we attack and defeat the enemies of freedom in Iraq, we will continue to work with Iraqi leaders to build a free, democratic and independent government. The United Nations Special Envoy, Mr. Brahimi, is now back in Iraq, consulting with diverse groups of Iraqis. In the next few weeks, important decisions will be made on the make-up of an interim government. And on June 30th, the flag of a free Iraq will be raised, and Iraq's new interim government will assume a sovereign authority. America will keep its commitment to the independence and national dignity of the Iraqi people. Yet the vital mission of our military in helping to provide security will continue on July 1st and beyond.

Coalition forces are training thousands of Iraqis to protect a free Iraq from external aggression and internal subversion. Our forces will remain in Iraq to assist the Iraqi people until Iraqis can secure their own country. Our country has great respect for the Iraqi people, and we are determined to expose and punish the abuse of Iraqi detainees. Charges have been filed against seven soldiers, and the first trial is set to begin next week. My administration and our military are determined that such abuses never happen again.

All Americans know that the actions of a few do not reflect the true character of the United States Armed Forces. No military in the history of the world has fought so hard and so often for the freedom of others. Today, our forces are keeping terrorists across the world on the run. They're helping the people of Afghanistan and Iraq to build democratic societies, making America more secure. By their example, the people of those countries and of the countries around the world are coming to know that freedom is the answer to hopelessness and terror. Our servicemen and women are defending America with unselfish courage, and their achievements have brought pride and credit to this nation.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 15, 2004.

bears repeating: No military in the history of the world has fought so hard and so often for the freedom of others.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 15, 2004.

Yes, our armed forces can always be counted on for selfless courage coupled with good will. We should also give much credit and appreciation to our coalition allies, British, Italian, Polish Australians et all; even the Spanish who recently left the theater of operations.

News from Spain has it many Spanish soldiers were emotionally let down and angry at their new socialist leaders for having ordered them to return home. They had a hand in the good work from the beginning. It's not their fault the government of Spain changed hands after those terrorist atrocities March 11. We have no hard feelings toward these brave men. God bless every ally and God bless our fighting troops in Iraq! God bless our President, George W. Bush!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 15, 2004.

Speaking of good will, the troops could use some help, see this site for more information. Spirit of America

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 15, 2004.

I wonder what gets into people like you. And trying to involve the Catholic Church! In favor of war and toture!

-- Gerry (gerryg44@aol.com), May 16, 2004.

I wonder what gets into people like you. And trying to involve the Catholic Church! In favor of war and toture!

Saddam Hussain and Al'Quida got to me and their killing of over 1 million people and torture that makes what the nuts at Abu Graib did look like adolescence playing around. But don't worry, we try our torturers and punish them, Saddam rewarded his.

By the way, Saddam now is telling his guards he doesn't want to be handed over to the Iraqis because he is afraid of how they will treat him. I wonder why?

Here is a story about some American doctors working to give some men who had their hands cut off by Saddam some hope.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 16, 2004.

"our armed forces can always be counted on for selfless courage coupled with good will".

Excellent irony sir. Too bad the innocent unarmed civilian women, children and old men that our noble armed forces bomb, shoot, abuse, arrest, torture and rape, don't appreciate how lucky they are.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 16, 2004.

Joker,
This is a valid point you make about innocent civilians. But you know, our army is probably the most sensitive to hurting civilians than any army in the history of warfare. Hey, even today, our enemies are placing women, children and innocent men in front of them as human shields. An helicopter I know wrote to me about how he could tell who was a combatant from a civilian because the civilian was in front and when they tried to turn to flee the guys in the back shot them in the back! So he strafed the ones in the back.

You can be proud of the American soldier.

Our army is willing to rebuild Iraq. What other army do you know has been willing to do that. Retired Maj. Gen. Mohammed Abdul-Latif rose to prominence after nearly monthlong battles last month between the Marines monthlong battles in April between the Marines and insurgents hunkered down in Fallujah's neighborhoods. "We can make them (Americans) use their rifles against us or we can make them build our country, it's your choice," Latif told a gathering of more than 40 sheiks, city council members and imams in an eastern Fallujah suburb. War is hell, but our soldiers are trying to make it less so for the civilians. Want to help? Go to Spirit of America and find out how.

In Christ,
Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 16, 2004.

Rebuilding Iraq is the least the USA can do after wrecking it. Look around, there have been plenty of other armies that have helped rebuild countries. But sorry I can't be proud of the generic "American soldier".

I do admire their wonderful technology though. Not only bullets that can curve around the guy in front and hit the guy standing behind him, but a helicopter that can write you a letter!

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 16, 2004.

Jokey is having fun here.
He said we had ''wrecked'' Iraq. Nothing at all about taking out a monster who held the population in fear and paranoia over 30 years. Hell; any country can do THAT.

''Look around, there have been plenty of other armies that have helped rebuild countries,'' WHICH, Jokesey? Name ONE.

''Too bad the innocent***unarmed*** civilian women, children and old men that our noble armed forces bomb, shoot, abuse, arrest, torture and rape, don't appreciate how lucky they are.''.

Yeah. Too bad. We never found any. Are we talking about Iraq, Jo? Was ANYBODY unarmed in Iraq? You think they're all innocent?

You are from earth, aren't ya, Bozo?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 17, 2004.

Sir, I have to admit defeat. My humble attempts at irony are nothing compared to the unintended humor which you post in deadly earnest. Possibly you even believe it?? I'll leave that between you and your therapist.

Yes of course, I'll humor you, the US army is the only one that has ever helped rebuild a country. We'll just forget all the others throughout history, and that the USA and China are the only major countries that don't contribute ANY troops to any UN peacekeeping or nation-building force.

Yes, of course it's wrong to get rid of a dictator unless you wreck his country as well. And OF COURSE every single Iraqi is a hostile armed terrorist. (We'll just forget about the Iraqi Christians, you probably haven't heard of them. They'll all be gone soon anyway now that the war has unleashed fundamentalist muslims in Iraq.) Sure, the Red Cross said that over 90% of the prisoners taken by US troops were innocent. But the Red Cross is a horrible leftist anti-American organisation.

No I’m not from Earth. I’m a Klingon from another galaxy. There are millions of us all around you, waiting to rape your sister and poke out your mother’s eyes!

There there. Just keep taking the medication.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 17, 2004.

He's a funny guy. A creep, but oh so funny! With glue- sniffers like this in our forum, who needs torture chambers?

He doesn't remember Kosovo where American military still guards. Or Korea, where the South Koreans depend on our armed forces. Or the rebuilding of Germany and Japan.

Jokesey even forgets (or never heard of) Pearl Harbor; and how America entered the World War after trying to stay out for years.

He swears we have ''wrecked'' Iraq. I don't know why its cities are all standing. Most of the buildings knocked down were destroyed by Saddam's defenders (they couldn't defend crap). The oil-fields of Iraq are all saved from destruction. Saved by Saddam Hussein? No-- saved FROM him. He wanted to burn em all up. They were saved for the Iraqi people by Americans and Brits and Italians, Aussies, Japanese, etc., a coalition of the willing.

But Joker Boy says, ''we wreck em.'' Clueless.

He calls our prisoners in one jail 90% of all prisoners. (All innocent bystanders.)

The Red Cross is his authority. If we weren't there to protect the Red Cross they would have been tortured and killed already.

But this genius thinks he can lecture us; and he's just a teenager. The Pentagon ought to hire him quickly, while he still knows everything! What a scientist!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 17, 2004.

Sure, the Red Cross said that over 90% of the prisoners taken by US troops were innocent.

The prisoners that were abused were not the innocent ones, or so we are told that they were in the section of the prison set asside for the worse of the worse. No real excuse, that, but a fact.

Not sure about the 90% figure, but I do know we capture a lot of people and release them soon after.

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@Hotmail.com), May 17, 2004.

I love this guy. Every time someone exposes his pro-war fallacies, he stands on the supposed accumulated wisdom of his 66 years and labels them "teenager", "stupid kid", "generation X", "child", "hippie generation" etcetera. Guess what Bozo? There's a guy in Rome who turns EIGHTY-FOUR tomorrow and he agrees with the "ignorant kids"! You join your friend Stalin calling his predecessors "useful idiots" and jeering that he has no battalions so we should ignore him.

All those bishops aren't spring chickens either. But it never occurs to this Bozo that they might have some wisdom. Not to mention authority from Christ.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 17, 2004.

Who ever named you Joker? You are as funny as filth.

No-- my argument is not with the Pope. He's an adult, and his views on the Iraq conflict were those of a sage. Not of a prophet, however. Since the American government isn't Catholic, and our war was not against any Christian state, much less the Vatican, there isn't anything about Iraq a faithful Catholic must regret. The Pope was wrong, just this time. We know it, thank God, by hindsight.

Our Holy Father mistakenly feared the attack on Saddam Hussein (we didn't make war on the Iraqi people) would set the whole middle east on fire. He feared a world war. He believed the UN could negotiate with Saddam (wrong), and that weapons inspections should continue (into the 13th straight year).

He's entitled to be mistaken, since his calling isn't politics or warfare. If he appealed to morality, we approved. An immoral war would have been totally reprehensible.

We have no reason to call the war an immoral war, or illegal, or unjust. Neither does the Pope. In fact it has turned out to be a nation's liberation. (Afghanistan and Libya make it three nations.) We have no regrets and neither has Rome. Justice is prevailing in Iraq.

Soon another enemy, Osama bin Laden, will also fall. I suppose this silly bore will call that a ''war fallacy'' too. They wouldn't like to see Osama captured. Bush might get credit for it. (Bad news!)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 17, 2004.

"We have no regrets and neither has Rome. Justice is prevailing in Iraq."

No doubt when Bush comes to Rome the Pope will humbly apologize to him and beg his forgiveness for being so wrong, then join him in a duet of "Je ne regrette rien!"

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 18, 2004.

Just shut your trap & pay attention, Sound-Bite.

You might get a surprise.

It's to be expected you see nothing good about three middle east nations (Afghanistan, Iraq & Libya) now coming to terms.

Whatever YOU expected, it wasn't success for George Bush and our armed forces. You wished them no good. You had rather been able to gloat at our armed forces running away from the so-called Republican Guard of Saddam Hussein.

Sorry, not your day. Not your war. Not your victory.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 18, 2004.

Joker and Eugene, would you please de-personalize your posts? Treat each other with respect or don't post at all please. Moderator

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), May 18, 2004.

OK I'm sorry I implied he had a therapist. I'm sorry I called him Bozo. He called me that first, so I assumed it was a term of Christian affection. I think he's far outdone me in being personally offensive.

I didn't expect HIM to find my jokes funny. But the rest of us are ROFL watching him vainly and desperately trying to squirm out of the moral and logical corners he's painted himself into. We've watched for ages his ruthless and viciously personal verbal bullying of anyone who supports the Church against the war. Now he finally got a bit of his own medicine. I'll give him a break and leave him to stew in his own juice.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 19, 2004.

Hahaha! That's very big of you, Jokesey! Thanks!
He's supporting the Church. My! I have a bone to pick with the Church ! ! ! Like what?

Now Joker lets the mean old man stew in juices? He feels like a winner? Why sure. He's good because he resists all wars. Best Catholic to come around here in a long time. (Joker thinks Saint Michael went to hell for being too aggressive with the enemy? Could be!)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 19, 2004.

St Michael is an angel. A pure spirit. The battles he fights are spiritual. He does not and cannot kill anybody. Not even another spirit. Spirits are immortal. This is pretty basic stuff.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 19, 2004.

This is true, Joker. You have all the weasel words pat. I agree then, not to pray to Saint Michael anymore. He can't help me gain anybody's trust on the left.

Is it OK to pray a little to Saint Joan of Arc? Or at least to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, who said ''There will be wars and rumors of wars?'' I have to keep trying as long as there are terrorists in this Jihad. You pray too, of course. Pray for Geo W. Bush.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 19, 2004.

What you call “the weasel words pat” is simply the true Catholic faith straight out of the Catechism. If you read it you would also see that to pray to anyone except God is idolatry.

Saints are not sinless. St Joan of Arc renounced her involvement in violence, confessed her sins and received absolution. She then died a martyr for her faith. She was canonized only after a 500 year delay due to concerns that canonizing her would promote violence. It appears that in your case those fears have proved correct. Your assertion that one gains heaven or becomes a martyr through committing violence, is as offensive coming from you as it is coming from Hamas or Al-Qaida.

Jesus said there will be wars and rumors of wars. In the next verse he said there will be famines and earthquakes. I don’t believe he intended us to deliberately cause, promote or take part in wars, or famines, or earthquakes.

Trust me, I’m praying my little butt off for Georgie boy. Praying that he LISTENS to the Pope this time.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 19, 2004.

Joker Boy--
I asked you to stop badgering. We can agree to disagree. You can't say I pray to saints and thereby am an idolater. There's a flaw in your logic there somewhere. You KNOW Christ said there shall be wars and rumors of wars. --If we disagree over what that means, too bad. It's still a prophesy and it's being fulfilled. As for the Iraqi war; it is a just war against unjust enemies. We're fighting an on-going war on terror; this was one more stage in that war. The fact that it outrages you and other war protesters, is a small matter. No one is forcing you to fight. Let's call you a conscientious objector. Perfectly a propos; unlike the title ''Joker''.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 20, 2004.

"Our enemy is not each other, but the terrorists who attacked us....The blame should be put on one source alone, the terrorists who killed our loved ones." Rudolph Giuliani

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), May 20, 2004.

I'm emailing this to the Vatican: It can be found at this URL: http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223- fatwa.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------

FAS Note: The following statement from Usama bin Laden and his associates purports to be a religious ruling (fatwa) requiring the killing of Americans, both civilian and military. This document is part of the evidence that links the bin Laden network to the September 11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. The original Arabic text of this statement may be found here. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders World Islamic Front Statement

23 February 1998

Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

..................................................................... .........

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin- 'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since Allah made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.

Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty Allah: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

Almighty Allah said: "O ye who believe, give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that Allah cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty Allah also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."

Almighty Allah also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

My hope is the Pope has time to read that before Bush comes calling. This may not mean a thing; or-- it may be why God is overruling a few anxious Catholic prelates these days. My prayers always with His Holiness and with our brethren of little faith. CIAO, Emmie!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 20, 2004.

Mr Chavez asked me "Is it OK to pray a little to Saint Joan of Arc? Or at least to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, who said ''There will be wars and rumors of wars?'' "

I respectfully, obediently and without animosity answer his question by quoting the truths of the Catholic faith, and he accuses me of "badgering" him. There's a flaw in someone's logic all right. I will "badger" you no more Mr Chavez.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), May 20, 2004.

Just allow me once more to say: We have no reason to call the war an immoral war, or illegal, or unjust. Neither does the Pope. In fact it has turned out to be a nation's liberation. (Afghanistan and Libya make it three nations.) We have no regrets and neither should Rome. Justice is prevailing in Iraq.<

(I hope you don't object to the demise of a bloodthirsty tyrant.) Now-- Leave me to stew in my own juices. Ciao,

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 21, 2004.