I read the Bishops statement on domestic abuse. I found only one line where it said wives should research how they can go about getting an annulment if they are in an abusive marriage. What does this mean? If the marriage is valid, are there ways for abused wives to end the marriage and still be able to re-marry in the Catholic Church?

-- john dern (johndern@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004

Answers

Not if both husband and wife are baptized.

However, sometimes abuse can be a symptom of a problem that existed at the time of the marriage ceremony which might be grounds for annulment. This can either be a problem on the abuser's part, or on the part of the wife for not standing up for herself or for her lack of discretion in mate selection.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004.

"What does this mean?"

In my opinion it means that the statement from the Bishops can and does lead some astray from Church teaching -a Catholic Bishop or Pastor should and never would suggest a married couple presumed validly married seperate and pursue 'annulment'...

"If the marriage is valid, are there ways for abused wives to end the marriage and still be able to re-marry in the Catholic Church?"

No -not validly.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), May 25, 2004.

In my opinion it means that the statement from the Bishops can and does lead some astray from Church teaching

If the bishops say one thing, and you say something different, then it is you who are leading people astray.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004.

In some cases, the Catholic Church allows for a civil divorce (not a sacramental divorce), leaving the marriage still sacramentally valid. Without an annulment, the wife would have to remain unmarried for the duration of her husband's life, but she could leave the abusive situation.

Please see this thread for more on divorce from Scripture: Is Divorce allowed in the NT?.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004.

I don't understand how the Church could teach that a women may civilly divorce her abusive husband and separate from him, but never re-marry if she fell in love wiith a good Catholic man. It seems to me that this is a case where Church teaching results in something really really unfortunate. A good Catholic woman could fall in love with a good Catholic man, a man that would help her raise her children and be an excellent male role model, but then say, "No, you are actually married to that horrible abusive man. Either work it out with him or become celibate."

What if this woman's calling in life is not the single life? What if she prays and feels that she is called to be married, and has found a wonderful man? Will the Church tell her that she is FOREVER MARRIED TO THE ABUSIVE MAN IN THE EYES OF GOD!?!

Yeah, try and convince me that the Holy Spirit speaks this...

-- john (johndern@yahoo.com), May 25, 2004.

john, God does not wish us to be single and lonely... but He does wish us to be moral creatures of God.

the oaths taken before God are "until death do us part" which means that nothing short of death can dissolve the oath. thus the only way to show a marraige as invalid is to show that some mitigating circumstance existed at the time of marraige to prevent the validity of that vow.

its sad that the woman would have to remain celebated if there was a valid marraige, but i dont really have much compassion because she took an oath before God with a grain of sand and stupidly married someone who was no good for her. she got herself into that mess and now blames the church, making her not only irresponsible, but childish and unable to accept her fault.

in short, if she made a valid oath before God that cannot be undone then God will hold that oath until, as it is said "death do us part." society practices serial monogomy, we must do what we can to prevent that practice from spreading to serial marraige.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 26, 2004.

"I don't understand how the Church could teach that a women may civilly divorce her abusive husband and separate from him, but never re-marry if she fell in love wiith a good Catholic man. It seems to me that this is a case where Church teaching results in something really really unfortunate".

A: What is really really unfortunate is (1) that people often don't take marriage seriously enough to make sure they marry a person with solid Christian values, and (2) that people sin. Sin always causes damage. Yes, this is really really unfortunate - but it is not the Church which causes sin, broken relationships, and bad marriages. On the contrary, if people lived by the teaching of the Church, such really unfortunate circumstances would not exist. Do you suggest abandoning the truth because really unfortunate things happen when people ignore it?

"What if this woman's calling in life is not the single life?"

A: Then she should have been more careful in selecting her lifelong partner, knowing that her solemn, non-retractable vow to him would be "until death do us part".

"What if she prays and feels that she is called to be married, and has found a wonderful man?"

A: Morality is not based on feelings. It is based on truth. If a person prays and "feels" something contrary to the teaching of the Church, then those are misguided feelings - understandable feelings certainly in a case like this, but still misguided. The truth is still the truth, and feelings cannot change that.

"Will the Church tell her that she is FOREVER MARRIED TO THE ABUSIVE MAN IN THE EYES OF GOD!?!"

A: Yes, the Church will definitely tell her that, since that is the truth. If the Church ever started telling us less than the fullness of truth, it would be utterly useless to us.

"Yeah, try and convince me that the Holy Spirit speaks this ..."

A: Jesus told the Church "the Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth". Do you believe Him? Did He lie? He told the Church "he who hears you hears Me". Did He mean it? Is the Bible inspired by the Holy Spirit? The Bible tells us "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery." - a direct quote from Christ Himself (Mark10:11-12) Should the Church fail to teach us what God Himself has clearly stated??

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 26, 2004.

However, when Jesus forgave the woman who was about to be stoned, and said "avoid this sin" we have no idea whether that meant to reconcile with the first husband, or ????

I find it difficult to believe that marriages of both OT and NT times were all abusive, yet that seems to be what the case was, that marriage is supposed to be an awful life for a woman.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 26, 2004.

I was wondering if this would be a good article for this question: http://www.cathnews.com/news/211/79.php I have a husband who is sometimes mean, but he has only lightly hit me a couple of times. He has a hard time with controlling his temper. Also sometimes he yells often. I talked to a priest about this and he told me that if my husband ever hit me lightly again then I should tell him. Since that time though he hasn't hit me, but sometimes he jokes that he will hit me. I think there is something wrong with that, but I just keep praying and trying to get it through his head that he needs to cut it out. The other things that bother me though, are sometimes are daughter who is only going to be 2 years old, pulls his hair or pinches him. Then he will do the same to her, lightly. So I tell him that he can only spank her, because I do not feel comfortable with it at all. I tell him that it could be abuse even lightly. He says that I can discipline her my way and he will discipline her his way, and that he is just showing her how it feels. I still am quite upset about it, but I have a lot of confusing ideas about what abuse is or isn't because I think that my dad used to abuse my mom sometimes, like pulled her hair and tossed her on the couch. He also use to be mean and he yelled a lot, like knocked me down and cussed. She stayed with him though, because she didn't know what else to do. I don't think my husband was as bad as my dad, but he sometimes loses his temper. I hate it, but I think because he is older and more manipulative, without realizing it; I think I was confused about him being the right person to have married. I chose the wrong path, possibly, and that is why sometimes bad things happen in my marriage; I regret it sometimes, but sometimes it isn't bad. I see in him, many times, a person struggling to be good. He was abused worse than I, in his childhood. He is so confused sometimes. Please pray for us, because I am confused a lot about what abuse is and isn't. Thanks.

-- Sonya (johnsonya2003@hotmail.com), May 26, 2004.

Sonya, I will pray for you. Let God be your refuge and pray to Him for strength. May God bless you. (((hugs)))

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 26, 2004.

Sonya,

My prayers are with you as well. It sounds like you have found a very good priest. I recommend talking to him on a more extensive basis to help you figure out this issue. A good counselor would also help; if your husband would object to your seeing a counselor, then that is a good indication of abuse.

In my experience, the best indication of whether something is abuse or not is whether you lie about it to your family and close friends. If you are so embarrassed about what your husband does that you need to lie about it and cover it up, then you (at least subconsiously) consider it to be abuse. If you can admit what happened to someone close to you who has your best interest at heart, then there is a good chance you can overcome it.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), May 26, 2004.

I talked to my good friend Adrianne about it, but she lives far in another state. She really didn't think that it was a good thing, but she encouraged me to stay in my marriage and work things out. I haven't talked to my family about it, because my brother got upset when my husband called me stupid in front of him. My brother would get more upset. They don't need to worry about this. They have their own problems.

He did hit me ligthly again in the head again today, but he said that I needed it. I was trying to find something on the computer for him and our daughter tried to climb up on me to nurse, but she slipped and started to cry. I was about to pick her up, but my husband got upset with me and hit me lightly. It hurt my feelings more than anything. He seemed to apologize by saying that he is sorry for wacking me in the head when I needed it.All I did was not talk to him. He then jokingly tells me "I feel so abused and battered", because he seemed to be mocking me, even though I didn't even say that. I really can't talk to the priest that I was telling you about yet, because he is in Canada on a retreat. As soon as I can I will try to find one though.

It upsets me, because I just got finished telling you that he hadn't hit me in a long time, and then he goes and does it on nearly the same day, I tell you that. It makes me angry and dissappointed, but I know that it wasn't that hard, so I guess I will have to apologize for making such a big deal about it. I am just so upset.

I have been to counseling before, and stopped because I thought everything was fine. This was before I married my husband. I would like to go back, but my husband probably wouldn't let me. He keeps the check book. I can't really get any money, unless I talk to him about it. I have tried to ask him to let me go to the dentist, but he hated it when I went to get a check up. He told me to find a cheaper dentist, but the one we had was the cheapest I could find so far. I still can't get my cavities filled until I find a cheaper one. He hates it when I ask him to pay his own doctor bills. I am sort of afraid to ask a lot of times, but I will pray for courage to ask him.

-- Sonya (johnsonya2003@hotmail.com), May 27, 2004.

Sonya, your husband will not stop. You have to understand that. These "light taps" on the head are a sign of something more serious and dangerous brewing inside of him. Those light taps WILL evolve into slaps, then into punches, then who knows. Please get help. Please do not allow this cycle to continue.

I, myself, have survived an abusive marriage. If only somebody had the courage to tell me to leave my marriage a little earlier, maybe I wouldn't have had to endure what I did. The beatings, the verbal abuse, the worthless marriage counseling that only got him angrier. All this from the loving man I thought I married.

THE REST OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS FORUM ARE COWARDS FOR NOT TELLING YOU THE TRUTH. THEY WOULD RATHER PERPETUATE A CYCLE OF ABUSE SO AS NOT TO COMPROMISE ON THE INTEGRITY OF THEIR MORALITY. THEY ARE STUBBORN, COWARDLY, AND HAVEN'T A CLUE OF WHAT CHRISTIAN LOVE IS. THEY WILL ONLY TELL YOU THAT IT IS YOUR FAULT THAT YOU GOT STUCK IN AN ABUSIVE MARRIAGE AND TELL YOU THAT IF YOU LEAVE HIM, YOU MAY NEVER FIND LOVE AGAIN. DON'T LISTEN TO THEM. SEEK HELP!!!! TAKE THIS FROM SOMEBODY WHO HAS EXPERIENCED WHAT YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED. IF YOUR HUSBAND LOVES YOU, HE WOULD KNOW THAT HE IS MAKING YOU FEEL BAD.

-- helper (helper@helper.com), May 27, 2004.

Sonya,

I'm afraid that you last response makes it very clear that you are being abused. I honestly don't know what advice to give you, however. How long before the priest you mentioned returns from his retreat? Would it be possible for you to print your posts out and show it to him, and then discuss it? He seems like a very good person to help. I don't know how good another priest you find at random might be.

A good book for you to read to help with your personal safety is The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), May 27, 2004.

Mark,

Earlier you said that abuse in a marriage might be a sign of something present from even before the actual wedding. Either an abusive boyfriend was hiding something, or the girlfriend was too scared not to marry for fear of being hurt, maybe she was even in denial. You said this may be grounds for an annulment.

I agree. My pastor works in the tribunal for our diocese. He says that most cases he works on involve abusive relationships. Sadly, many couples throw themselves into marriages, and it isn't untill years later that these problems arise. If the problems are serious enough, such as abuse, he says they are granted an annulment.

DJ

-- DJ (dbyock087@yahoo.com), May 27, 2004.

helper,

-your armchair analysis is incorrect...

Sonya,

Simply put, IF you are in danger -get out of danger. Talk with your Priest as soon as possible; meanwhile, pray for your husband that he may come to the understanding you have with Christ regarding love - continue to lead him there by example...

Daniel////

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), May 27, 2004.

I appreciate the advice. I will talk to the priest. Thank you everyone.

-- Sonya (johnsonya2003@hotmail.com), May 27, 2004.

Our priest doesn't get back for a couple of weeks I think. I forgot to answer that question. Thank you again for you prayers.

-- Sonya (johnsonya2003@hotmail.com), May 27, 2004.

Sorry, I am typing while trying to watch my daughter;I meant thanks for your prayers.

-- Sonya (johnsonya2003@hotmail.com), May 27, 2004.

Returning to the top of this thread, can someone please point me to where is this citation from the Bishops statement regarding domestic abuse? Domestic abuse is a real problem. At the same time, the charge of domestic abuse is often employed to simply justify a selfish wish to desert a marrriage.

Without getting into too much detail, it appears my wife may have been counseled along this line at some point. What resulted was not a search for truth, but an effort to accumulate evidence to support an anulment. Unfortunately, this effort was undertaken without any contervailing effort to identify a marital crisis and overcome any marital problem.

Its really a big mess. But for some reason I think God wanted this to happen to me. For five years now, I have been calmly and patiently trying to point out to various parties that its really not according to God's will to seek to make a case for nullifying what He created, and is in fact the reality. Unfortunately, the divorce law and the annulment process in the U.S. encourage this type of misbehavior by an errant spouse.

In my case the marriage is clearly sacramentally valid, and the marital problmes were normal and relatively minor. I'm sure certain divorce advocates and creatively thinking canonists will disagree. And sure...there are droves of people willing to say "OK thats your side of the story." That is fine. I've spent five years saying "Well OK, lets look at the facts here."

Unfotunately, divorce is an accepted way of life in many parts of the world. And annulments are so prevalent in the U.S., they are synonymous with divorce. It takes longer, but the overall effect is precisely the same.

I think the bishops could have added a statement stating something about abusive marriages being considered objectively, as to whether the abuse is real and not contrived, and that marriage should promoted if at all possible. I know the Holy Father teaches as much.

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), May 28, 2004.

Daniel Hawkenberry - did you even read what I wrote? I have survived an abusive marriage. Have you? Why would you say armchair analysis? I made it clear to Sonya that I am a woman who has survived an abusive marriage, and I know the pain, and I know what she must do. Do you know the pain of being in an abusive marriage? Next time, when dispensing advise in a religious forum, think harder about what you say. Rather than helping anybody, you've actually hurt me. The advice I gave was from one woman who knows to another who knows. Why don't you just stay out of this conversation, Daniel, if all you have to say is rude and unhelpful remarks?

-- helper (helper@helper.com), May 28, 2004.

Pat,

Here is the thread with the bishops' statement link.

Sonya,

Please ignore Daniel's "advice". There may be a one in a thousand chance that your husband will ever stop being an abuser, but you are in no position to help him.

It will take all your strength just to help yourself and your daughter. You need to grow in your own self-confidence to the point where you can recognize the abusive situation that you are in. You need to do this so your daughter doesn't repeat this pattern when she grows up. As you gain in this awareness, it is likely that your husband's abusiveness will increase. For your own safety, you should think *now* about what level of physical abuse is unacceptable, and what your "escape plan" for you and your daughter will be should your husband's abuse even once rise to that level.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004.

Link to U.S. Catholic bishops' document.

A pertinent segment of the 1983 (Western) Code of Canon Law follows, Sonya, showing that you have a right to protect yourself by separation, if grave danger is involved.

Canon 1153 §1 A spouse who occasions grave danger of soul or body to the other or to the children, or otherwise makes the common life unduly difficult, provides the other spouse with a reason to leave, either by a decree of the local Ordinary or, if there is danger in delay, even on his or her own authority.
§2 In all cases, when the reason for separation ceases, the common conjugal life is to be restored, unless otherwise provided by ecclesiastical authority.

Canon 1154 When a separation of spouses has taken place, provision is always, and in good time, to be made for the due maintenance and upbringing of the children.

Canon 1155 The innocent spouse may laudably readmit the other spouse to the conjugal life, in which case he or she renounces the right to separation.

Henry IX

-- (Defender@fThe.Faith), May 28, 2004.

Sonya

No woman ought to remain in an abusive relationship. You have a duty to yourself and your daughter to get yourself into a situation where you are safe.

The Church does NOT want you to remain in danger. You cannot be held responsible for a violent husband. He's responsible for his own unacceptable behaviour. Certainly you might have made a bad choice, but things aren't always blatantly o obvious, especially where emotions are involved, and developments can occur that nobody could have forseen.

You must also think of the legal repurcussions should, God forbid, anything happen to your daughter and you haven't removed her from a known danger. Could you live with yourself if the unthinkable happened and she was badly hurt, or worse? If she survives your relationship, how would she feel if she had no mother to turn to?

Sonya, pleaseget help. Don't leave it too late.

God bless

Sara

-- Sara (sara_catholic_forum@yahoo.co.uk), May 28, 2004.

"Daniel Hawkenberry - did you even read what I wrote?"

Yes.

"I have survived an abusive marriage. Have you?"

No. However, I am curious -what ended the abuse? Is your abuser now incarcerated?

"Why would you say armchair analysis?"

I assumed you are not a trained psychologist practicing cognitive therapy with opportunity to thoroughly interview both parties involved in a relational issue. Futher, I assumed your only information was that posted in this thread. Additionally, I assumed you not to be a Priest....

"I made it clear to Sonya that I am a woman who has survived an abusive marriage, and I know the pain, and I know what she must do. Do you know the pain of being in an abusive marriage?"

Having a heart attack does not make one a heart surgeon...

"Do you know the pain of being in an abusive marriage?"

Feelings and or pain do not change Truth and or Catholic teaching - Faith and obedience are required despite pain NOT unless pain... "Next time, when dispensing advise in a religious forum, think harder about what you say".

I really do not think much about choosing what I say -I just faithfully remain obedient to the Magesterium -there is no difference between my 'religious' life and the 'rest' of my life , they are all the same; consequently, my advice in this 'religious' forum would be my advice in any forum.... Truth is the same here as it would be in a 'feminist' forum...

"Rather than helping anybody, you've actually hurt me. The advice I gave was from one woman who knows to another who knows."

In my opinion any advice given should be measured against Truth & Church teaching -NOT on whether it may be percived to cause pain or whether the advisor 'knows' anything that advises something counter to Church teaching...

"Why don't you just stay out of this conversation, Daniel, if all you have to say is rude and unhelpful remarks?"

No -your perception regarding 'helpful' appears shortsighted and without consideration for more than flesh...

Daniel///

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), May 28, 2004.

Mark,

You judge Sonya's husband an incurable abuser? hmmmm....

Your abilities to speak ill of others and judge others astound me -Oh I am confused -in some cases (relatively speaking) it appears OK to not follow Church teaching -- as if Truth is relative...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), May 28, 2004.

-rather than discuss the 'hot' issue(s) in general on this thread I would suggest those wishing debate or discussion go to the following threads:

A discussion of the Bishop's 'pastoral' statement regarding abuse:

Pastoral or Anti Family?

Additionally, a discussion of Catholic Charities 'helpful' aid in this 'effort' and others:

Is 'Catholic Charities' really Catholic anymore?

To sum it up, in my opinion, the abuse 'help' that is currently prescribed in the US, though well intentioned, is primarily secular based and inspired -practically devoid of spirituality. IT is 'politically correct', bureaucratically well entrenched in our Church and driven to automatically and systematically steer many unknowingly astray down a humanistic path away from God...

Daniel////

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), May 28, 2004.

You know folks..what the Church teaches is that violence in a marriage is sinful. It is NOT a sin to TEMPORARILY leave an abusive spouse, it is common sense. A spouse who is in an abusive relationship has great difficulty recognizing the abuse and more often than not blames themselves for the other spouses' behavior. All cases of abuse are not created equal. There are many cases, MANY, where after good counselling the abuse stops and is never repeated again and the marriage thrives. Without good counselling, the likelihood of the abuse escalating into more serious abuse is so high that you'd not lose money on it if you wagered. I take issue with saying that a person who marries an abusive spouse has made some sort of "mistake" or an error in judgement. The world is crawling with people who are quite clever at hiding their true selves from others, even in a close realtionship. These folks have hidden agendas which are unbelievable to the average person. You simply cannot see them. Of course I am not speaking about the women who go ahead and marry the boy friend who whacked them every few days before the wedding. I'm speaking about the ones who show zero signs of abuse until AFTER the marriage. Again, the Church is correct. It is better to live alone and safe and celibate than to live with fear and physical/emotional abuse. In those cases where the Church finds an invalid marriage, then the spouse is free to marry. In those cases where the marriage was valid to begin with, then the spouse is bound to remain married but NOT bound to live with the abusive person who refuses to get help. Any woman who is being hit by her husband should leave the home immediately. Money or no money. Call a shelter and get out before you have to call an ambulance. This does NOT mean you need to divorce your husband, or that your husband is some sort of monster. It means that there is a serious problem in your home and that BOTH of you need help, but FIRST you need to be safe.

-- lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), May 28, 2004.

But why punish someone who doesn't see the hidden true self of the other person, and would never have married them had he/she known what was going to happen to him/her? Maybe no one should get married? Gee, then it's a good thing that there are now sperm banks and in vitro fertilization.

"There are many cases, MANY, where after good counselling the abuse stops and is never repeated again and the marriage thrives."

Just like pedophilia can be cured with counselling? Right.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 28, 2004.

lesley,

-well said... I would add that when one is in a difficult and or painful situation they should 'keep thier eyes on the prize' -never lose sight of or act contrary to Church teaching no matter how bad it may get -bad things happen to good people; however, bad things do not justify bad things -in the face of hate show love AND pray for your spouse...

Daniel////

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), May 28, 2004.

Sonya seeks help, yet, you would rather attack those who try to help her. Daniel, you've got issues.

Helper

-- helper (helper@helper.com), May 29, 2004.

Helper,

Daniel is NOT attacking anyone! You're the one who won't leave him alone. Who are you to call anyone a "coward"? Don't take your frustrations out on Daniel. Maybe you're the one with issues.

Sonya,

I read some excellent advice given to you from people in this Catholic forum.

Rember you are made in the image of God. Don't let anyone put there hands on you or your child in anger! Your husband has some deep rooted problems. Its not normal for a man to punch his wife or talk about this! Might not of been that hard of a punch this time, but 6 months from now you might be dead. You are always dealing with the nature of the person, and your husbands nature is to beat you and your child.

I will pray for you and your family.

-- - (David@excite.com), May 29, 2004.

Daniel is NOT attacking anyone!

This is true; Daniel was not attacking anyone. He was merely putting Sonya's physical safety (not to mention Penelope's from the other thread) in danger through his obstinate dissent from the magisterium.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), May 29, 2004.

Daniel, you've got issues.

What? What does this mean?

My dictionary here says that there are over fifteen definitions of the noun, "issue," but none of them makes sense (within the context of this thread) in the sentence, "Daniel, you've got issues." I invite all to check their own printed dictionaries to confirm this (not an online dictionary that tries to make legitimate all manner of barbarisms).

Is it possible that the sentence, "Daniel, you've got issues," is intended to mean "Daniel, you have problems"? If so, why use the word "issues," which does not mean "problems"?

Or did someone, when I wasn't looking, and without anyone's permission, suddenly take a word that has over fifteen meanings ("issues") and add yet another meaning to it ("problems"), even though there already was a perfectly good word for the concept ("problems")? If so, what a shame! That kind of abuse of the English language is a big "problem"!

Please excuse my tangential comments, not relevant to the thread's topic. I had to get this complaint off my mind.

Henry IX

-- (Defender@fThe.Faith), May 29, 2004.

I thank you all again. I was sad about my situation, but I am feeling a whole lot better thanks to people like you. You care about me and you don't even know me. From your advice, I realize that what he did was not normal and it was unacceptable. He did not punch me, but he did hit me, even though he hit me not that hard it was not acceptable. I would not let him do mean things to my daughter. I have decided to forgive and be cautious. From what I read here, he may be curable. I can't cure him, but God can as long as he cooperates. I will make a back up plan though, so that if he does yell and say threatening things or starts joking about awful things then I will be able to get out for as long as it takes for him to control his anger. Also before he does it again. Because he talks about it a lot before he does it.

I appreciate that everyone here believes me and is sincere. I will not forget this. I can't thank everyone enough. I wish I can hug everyone here and cry (tears of sorrow and joy). Sorrow for not having your advice sooner and joy for getting it now. I will keep you in my prayers, and don't forget me and my family in yours.

-- Sonya (johnsonya2003@hotmail.com), May 31, 2004.

Sonya..you are a wise woman. It is easier to take the "modern" approach and simply bail out of any unpleasantness in a marriage. It is much more difficult to remember that marriage is much more than just two people living together. First and foremost is the safety of you and your child until your husband comes to understand what is going on within himself. And then comes the part where you come to an understanding of why his behavior has been acceptable in the past to you. Those things take time and a great deal of real "work" as you BOTH hopefully are able to enter into a new and healthier,and holier marriage with one another. I will pray that you will continue in wisdom and that your husband will join you in counselling.

-- lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), May 31, 2004.

Sonya,

You and your family are in my prayers. Please remember to talk with your priest when he gets back.

You might try calling the local government where you live to see if you can locate some free dental services. You need to take care of yourself physically as well as emotionally.

-- Mark (aujus_1066@yahoo.com), May 31, 2004.