Why do Catholics pray in the Virgin Mary?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
I have seen several Catholic prayers asking for protection from the Virgin Mary. Why? She is human like us. Where in the bible says that we must pray in the name of Mary? Is Mary then God too?Thanks.
-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004
Ummm, that would be because Mary is the mother of God? Just like you pray to all the saints...they interceed for you because they know God on a slightly different level than you and I, kinda like having a friend "with connections". Get it? Pretty simple concept I think.
-- Mike (none@nonr.com), May 28, 2004.
Hi Mike,that is an interesting concept, praying to the saints. But aren't the saints all dead? How can they hear you? Where in the bible says that we can pray to the saints? Jesus said that we must pray God the Father in His name. Is Jesus lying?
-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004.
this is something thats bothered me for awhile. just last weekend, in fact, a "born again" person (a former catholic, no less), pulled the old routine: "why do i have to pray to saints? why do i have to pray to Mary? i just pray straight to God".shes correct, and i agree with her. although i used what i learned here. i told her that the saints/Mary intercede for us, or, they are ASKED for THEIR prayers.
others here are more knowledgeable about our Church than i am, trust me, but i think we are taught to appeal to saints for everything from protection to the well-being of our animals. i think it is all silly. saints are role models, yes, but prayers to God ONLY are what should be the core of our faith.
(as i await to be bashed)....
thank you
-- jas (jas_r_22@hotmail.com), May 28, 2004.
Jas,I agree with you. In my culture, we ask the spirits (fallen angels) for protection. This kind of worship is called in the bible, idolatry.
-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004.
Henri, Mike, jas.
If God has allowed it, and if Mary were effective and able to get our petitions and needs answered for us; wouldn't it make perfect sense to pray for her help? God definitely allowed it. It's in the Bible (John 2 :1- 9). We see her there, acting as go-between on behalf of the faithful; when Jesus worked the first miracle of His public life. Catholics the world over and since the very beginning know Mary has answered their prayers. It makes a HUGE difference letting Our Blessed Mother intercede for us at the feet of her Divine Son. There have been thousands of the faithful who prayed to Mary and were heard. How did they know? Their prayers brought prompt results! It PLEASES her Son to give Mary that honor and privelege, because He loves His holy mother.Isn't that a simple enough truth? Wouldn't any of you, & me-- love to honor and give happiness to our own mothers; by granting a fervent and unselfish request? This isn't deep thought; anybody can see the logic.
But it wouldn't be enough, if not for the truth; FACTUAL cases of miraculous answers to prayers to our Blessed Mother. You can't argue with success! When you pray and something good happens, the obvious result is--it worked. Mary heard you and obtained for you something that God wishes to grant for HER sake. Pray to the Mother of God yourselves and see if Catholics know something or not.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 28, 2004.
Henri,The fact that Mary is "human like us" is exactly the reason we can ask her to pray for us. Don't you ask other humans to pray for you? Don't you pray for other humans? Do you think you will stop praying once you get to heaven?
No, the saints are not dead. Jesus Himself stated that in very clear terms. John quotes Him ...
"everyone who lives and believes in Me will NEVER DIE. Do you believe this?" (John 11:26)
How can you reconcile "are dead" with the words of God Himself, "will never die"? I accept the word of God. The saints are alive and well, and are in a far better position to pray for us now than they were as earthly sinners.
Incidentally, the definition of "idolatry" is "WORSHIP of someone or something other than the one true God". Asking someone to pray for you is not worshipping them. Also, the example you mentioned - asking angels to protect you - is not idolatry unless you WORSHIP those angels instead of God. I'm not sure what you mean by asking "fallen angels" to protect you. That would be a very dangerous thing to do, based upon my understanding of "fallen angels" - but it would still not be idolatry.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 28, 2004.
Henri,Would you ask members of your family to pray for some special need of yours? If so, why don't you pray to God alone? If you don't think there's anything wrong with asking your family or friends to pray for you, why would you balk at asking Christ's mother to do the same?
BTW, as a Catholic you don't HAVE to pray to anyone but God. If you WANT to ask Mary or a saint to pray for your cause as well, you can. Some people have had amazing results with this, btw.
Finally, another error non-Catholics make is thinking that we believe Mary herself grants our requests. She doesn't, only God can fulfill prayers. Every prayer "to Mary" really is asking her to pray to God FOR us, not that she perform some miracle independent of God, regardless of what a particular translation of a prayer might seem to imply.
Frank
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 28, 2004.
Eugene,In John 2:1-9 has nothing to do with prayer. But the point is, who do your trust? In Mary or in Christ? When you pray in Mary's name, your faith in in her not in Christ--you are worshipping Mary.
In John 2:1-9, Mary is still alive. Of course, she can go to Jesus and said that there are no more wine. What Mary does is to discuss the problem with Jesus.
And of course, we can request someone who is alive today to pray God for us. But the prayer still ask in the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the interceed person. His is the only one who has two natures: Divine and human. Neither angels nor Mary can bridge between us and God. This is my understanding that Christ is the only bridge between us and God.
-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004.
Dear Eugene, Do you believe that Mary and the Saints can percieve the hearts and desires of all christendom? If you do, then, I see how you can believe what you do. I love Our Mother very much and believe she intercedes for us, but I have a difficult time believing she functions on the same intimate level with the Christian's spirit as the Holy Spirit. Of course you would not say she does, but it seems to me that only the Spirit who know what you want "before you ask it" is capable with the same Godhead to make your prayers come to fruition. I realize you could say that we are all connected through the Holy Spirit and can thus ask anyone who is in tune with the Holy Spirit to pray for us (especially those who are in heaven). But I remember a verse in which the diciples ask Jesus is they might pray to him and he responds that "on that day you will only pray to the Father" (meaning after he ascends). That is the point of the new and everlasting covenent after all, isn't it? That God is now Abba, Father, to us who have believed through Jesus Christ. And if we have a Father who is able to do exceedingly above what we ask or think then don't you think that our communion with Him is sufficient since it brings us in communion with His Body and not the other way around. Moreover I would not deny that many people have had their prayers heard when praying to Mary. But you realize a Hindu could say the same thing for Vishnu and this makes your argument somewhat weak since by your reasoning one would have to assume that Vishnu hears prayers also. This labefaction does not make your argument wrong but hurts its credibility. I hope to be in Heaven one day and praising God. I also hope to continue praying for the Church on earth when I am there. I'm just not to sure if I will be able to read the hearts of the whole Church, but if I can it will certainly be wonderful. I am not against your argument, I just don't feel wholly certain about it.
-- jd brabant (joshua123@qwest.net), May 28, 2004.
Someone,I ask my family members, pastor or anyone to pray for me because Jesus said that if two or more come together and pray, Jesus will be there and hear our prayer. The point is that all are there together asking for the same request.
If I am alone praying, it would be according to my will, not God's will. But if two or more persons agree, Jesus said He will be there.
Someone, who do you trust and have faith? Mary or Jesus?
-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004.
You are confusing several different ideas (the inevitable result of having no reliable objective source of truth).We do not "pray in Mary's name". Where did you get that idea? We simply ASK Mary, as a fellow Christian believer, to pray for (interceed for) us. It is exactly the same as asking your wife or your brother or your pastor to pray for you. I don't pray in my wife's name, but I certainly do ask her to pray for me!
"In John 2:1-9, Mary is still alive."
A: Mary is still alive NOW also, unless Jesus was a liar. I addressed this in my post above.
"And of course, we can request someone who is alive today to pray God for us."
A: Right!
"But the prayer still ask in the name of Jesus Christ."
A: Right!
"Jesus is the interceed person. His is the only one who has two natures: Divine and human. Neither angels nor Mary can bridge between us and God. This is my understanding that Christ is the only bridge between us and God."
A: No. Here you are confusing two very different concepts - intercession and mediation. Christ is our only Mediator. He alone was the one who "bridged the gap" between us and God after Adam and Eve created that gap by their disobedience. A Mediator is a third party who brings about reconciliation between two other estranged parties. Christ alone did this, so Christ alone is our Mediator. Intercession on the other hand simply means offering prayers on behalf of another. Every living Christian, on earth or in heaven, is an intercessor. If you ask God to bless a friend, you are an intercessor. If you ask someone to pray for you, they are an intercessor for you. The work of intercession lasts until the end of time. All living Christians, regardless of where they currently live, are involved in this essential ministry.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 28, 2004.
"Intercession on the other hand simply means offering prayers on behalf of another. Every living Christian, on earth or in heaven, is an intercessor. If you ask God to bless a friend, you are an intercessor. If you ask someone to pray for you, they are an intercessor for you. The work of intercession lasts until the end of time." Dear Paul, Not to but into your argument, but I thought St. Paul's reference in I Cor. 15 to the intercessory/by proxy baptism for the dead might support your argument and I was curious what you thought about this idead in general. Josh
-- jd brabant (joshua123@qwest.net), May 28, 2004.
Paul,I am not an theologist and not familiar with those terms, but what you are saying is that the dead can hear us? Do they really exist among us here on earth? Do you really think Mary knows what is going on in this world?
Of course, we die physically but not spiritually. Mary is alive and live in paradise, in heaven. But certainly she will not hear your begging for her to ask her Son Jesus Christ. If she surely hears your cry and begging Jesus to answer your request, it seems that Mary is telling the Lord what to do. Only my mother tells me what to do when I am under her control. When Jesus was going to die on the cross, what did he call Mary? a "women". What does this tell you? To me this meant that the relationship no longer exist between Mary and Jesus as mother and son.
-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004.
Josh,Post-mortem baptism by proxy is not valid on two grounds (and probably others) ...
First, the sacraments are institutions of the Church. Their source and effect are spiritual but their application is earthly, within the context of the Church, which likewise is divine in origin but earthly in function and purpose. Once people complete the earthly portion of their lives, they are no longer in need of the Church or the sacraments, which are earthly aids in reaching our eternal goal. At the moment we experience physical death, everything that could influence the question of our salvation is finished. We pray for the deceased of course, but not in the hopes that God will change His mind about their salvation. We pray only for those who are already saved but are temporarily excluded from heaven for purposes of purification. Those who are in heaven do not need our prayers, or the Church, or the sacraments. Those who are in hell cannot benefit from our prayers, or the Church, or the sacraments.
Secondly, a sacrament can be administered only when the recipient and the minister are physically present to each other, even among those who are still here on earth. Baptism by proxy is not possible even before death, let alone after death. One cannot be married by proxy or confirmed by proxy. A priest cannot hear your confession and minister absolution over the phone or by email.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 28, 2004.
Henri:
Do you intend to debate? Let's not argue about what you think. You don't think John 2, is about prayer? It is about intercession. Look for yourself. If Mary could do so then, why can't she do that NOW? Only this is required: Christ must be able to hear her. We know that's for sure. She lives now; in heaven with Him. Jesus tells us that whoever believes in Him will never die. (John 11 :25-6) We aren't praying to a dead Mary.Now--idolatry is to call a creature God, or worship the creature. Catholics know Mary is God's creature. We do not worship Mary. You're confusing prayer- as-petition for prayer-as-the worship of God. Mary is every bit as qualified as you or me, to make a petition. Better qualified, since Jesus is always present before her; and He loves her as a MOTHER, not just as a creature. You must start to contemplate the relationship unique to Mary and her Divine Son. It is an unbreakable bond of love.
She is able to see and hear what Christ her Son sees and hears. All that takes place within His Holy Church on earth. This is called the Beatific Vision. Saints are given a new kind of knowledge in the glory of heaven. Somewhat like angelic powers. We know that from the Bible, too. Paul says in the epistle, ''It is written, Eye has not seen, or ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man, what God has prepared for those who love Him.'' (1 Cor 2, :9) He means in the life to come, heaven. He isn't talking about pearly gates. It is in part the Beatific Vision of the saints. They live. They know our petitions and hear prayers because they form with us the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. We are members together with THEM, of Jesus' BODY, here in this world.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 28, 2004.
jd,Do you believe in Marian apparitions? I believe these are the greatest testament to the power, and truth of intercessory prayers. Mary gave the Rosary prayer (including 53 Hail Mary's and the Salve Regina) to St. Dominic so that we all could more effectively communicate our petitions to God. This from a Marian website:
"Who is the Blessed Virgin Mary? She is not God! She is the mother of Jesus....the mother of God. She confounds the scientific world and proves God exists. In her many apparitions she has left us with messages from heaven. She urges us all to consecrate ourselves to her Immaculate Heart so that she can be the pathway to Jesus. You will see that the apparitions are all centered around Jesus. Everything about her represents Jesus. He is the center of our lives. He is the core of our existence. He is the Son of the Eternal Father. He is our hope and the world has no other hope but Jesus Christ! That is what the apparitions show us. The Blessed Virgin draws us to Jesus. She is God's Greatest Evangelist."
-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 28, 2004.
Henri,No, those who have passed away are not "among us here on earth". Rather, they are in a state outside of time and space. A state called "eternity". As such, they are no longer affected by the limtations of time and space. The reason you cannot hear me right now if I speak is that we are separated by space. If we decreased that space sufficiently, you would be able to hear me. Where the saints are there is no such thing as space, and no such thing as time. Therefore there is nothing to prevent them from hearing us. Further, some might ask "how can Mary hear and understand millions of prayers all being spoken to her at the same time?" The answer is that Mary and the other saints do not experience time. From an earthly perspective, these prayers may be offered "at the same time" , but from an eternal perspective, there is no such thing as time, and therefore no such thing as "at the same time", or "before" or "after". They simply hear us, freed of the impediments which prevent us from doing the same.
Jesus addressed his mother as "woman" because that was a respectful way to address a woman in that time and culture. You can't picture yourself addressing your own mother as "woman" and then try to apply the same social significance to the Jewish culture of 2,000 years ago. What possible reason could there be for Jesus to disown his own mother?? Not possible!
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 28, 2004.
All here is a template prayer I took from a Catholic website:Holy Mary, Pray for safety in the performance of their military duties! Defend him/her from the enemies he/she may now face. Provide a shield for them when they are in battle or conflict. And provide a safe harbour or refugde at all other times. Holy Mary! Please return
(Insert Name or name here)
to our family unharmed physically, mentally, or spiritually. This I pray in the name of Jesus our Christ!
Amen.
When I read this prayer, it tells me that "Holy Mary" is God. The prayer request for Mary to:
(1) "Defend him/her..", (2) "Provide a shielf for them.." and (3) "And provide a safe harbour or refugde at all..."
And "This I pray in the name of Jesus our Christ!".
The bible tells that we pray God the Father in the name of Jesus. Why this prayer pray "Holy Mary" in the name of Jesus instead?
To me something does not seem right. You may say that Mary is the intercessor, but it is in your word. The hidden message is pray to Mary in the name of her son Jesus. This is totally contradict to what Jesus said in the bible.
-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004.
Henri,I ask my family members, pastor or anyone to pray for me because Jesus said that if two or more come together and pray, Jesus will be there and hear our prayer. The point is that all are there together asking for the same request.
This is true, but it also raises a very profound question that I've never heard addressed before: If one asks two saints to pray with them, does one then fall into this "three or more" category? Maybe someone who knows more than I knows the answer.
If I am alone praying, it would be according to my will, not God's will. But if two or more persons agree, Jesus said He will be there.
What does this mean? Do you mean if you are praying with others you have no "will" in the matter? Could you please rephrase this question?
Someone, who do you trust and have faith? Mary or Jesus?
I trust in Jesus Christ as my personal savior. I trust that if I ask Mary, His mother, to pray to Jesus with me and for me, she will.
Frank
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 28, 2004.
"Holy Mary, Pray for safety in the performance of their military duties! Defend him/her from the enemies he/she may now face. Provide a shield for them when they are in battle or conflict. And provide a safe harbour or refugde at all other times."A: First of all, note that this prayer simply expresses the ideas of whoever wrote it. It is not anything officially produced or officially approved by the Catholic Church.
Secondly, if this prayer was addressing Mary as God, why would it begin "Pray for safety"? Do we ask God to pray for us?? Who would He pray to? I agree that parts of the prayer are not as well worded as they could be. It is of course God who would directly provide the protection that is being requested. Mary would "provide for their protection" only indirectly, through intercession, just as she provided for the young couple's lack of wine at Cana. But again, the prayer only expresses the ideas of one individual anyway, and not in any official capacity.
Thirdly, the prayer ends with the direct statement that would be understood by any Catholic even if it was not stated - that all prayer is ultimately in Jesus' name.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 28, 2004.
Frank,To answer your questions, read Matthew 18:20: "20 Whenever two or three of you come together in my name, [1] I am there with you."
It does not matter what the occassion is, Christ promised He will be there if we come together in his name.
What does this mean? Do you mean if you are praying with others you have no "will" in the matter? Could you please rephrase this question?
Frank, my self-will is to win the lottery. Of course, we all have will but not the will God desire. Can you pray for me to win the lottery?
-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004.
Henri,Let me make sure I understand you. Are you saying that when you pray by yourself you only pray for selfish things, and when you pray with others you automatically pray according to God's will?
Frank
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 28, 2004.
Henri:
Jesus addressed his own followers when He said: Matthew 18:20: "Whenever two or three of you come together in my name, I am there with you."This means that all who follow Jesus (in my name) are His Church --eclessia, meaning assembly. Assembly is what ''come together refers to. He was telling His CHURCH-- there I will be; in my Church.
It's very true. One of Jesus' titles is Emmanuel; which means God with us. Catholics have Jesus Christ actually present in every single tabernacle of His in the world. Because he promised that in Matt 18. But He only founded one Church Not various churches. If one Church is truly Christ's it has to be the Catholic Church, That is the original Church of the holy apostles.
No other existing church has the complete teachings of the apostles of Jesus Christ. The Bible is from that same Church; so when you read it, you only read a part of the Catholic teachings. And; being outside of the Holy Spirit by definition (only ONE Church was founded), you can't even avoid error when you interpret the scripture privately. You misinterpret most of what Christ revealed to His apostles. As here for instance: '' --did he call Mary? a "women". What does this tell you? To me this meant that the relationship no longer exist between Mary and Jesus as mother and son.'' BUT WHY? Because you don't understand the scriptures. Calling Mary ''woman'' has nothing at all to do with the mother/Son relationship. NOTHING. You are in error immediately, because the Holy Spirit isn't guiding you.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 28, 2004.
Frank,Yes, Frank. I am a human being. I love money, fame..I like to have everything. This is my will man. It's why I have to go to school and have a good pay job and live a happy life. Everyone wants to be wealthy. Aren't you? Isn't the Catholic Church or the Pope the wealthiest in this planet?
When I myself agree that I should have these things and ask God, you think God will grant them to me?
Don't that I am not capable asking God according to His will. I do!
-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004.
Henri," The Bible tells us...."
The Bible also "shows us" that Sola Scriptura in unbiblical! (2 Thess 2:15) So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
Henri doesn't (Luke 1:48) record Mary saying that "all generations will call me blessed."? Arn't being unbiblical again?
-- - (David@excite.com), May 28, 2004.
Eugene,remember this very first Roman Catholic Church? It persecuted the christians. The Roman Catholic Church tried to unit the churches and see what happen. And don't even say that the Pope was a sinner and sinner made mistake.
By evidences of the past, the Catholic Church had no mercy. The Crusaders executed the christians and every others without love. You call this is the true church...The church Christ first founded?
I think Catholic is the church Roman found. In Jesus time, he prophesized that His followers will be persecuted by the anti- christ. Surely, in the Middle Ages and the Crusaders went to the Holy Land and killed people without mercy. I am not saying that Catholic is anti-christ, but history does showed evidence of a false church.
You can't say that Catholic is the only true church. The body of Christ is the believers not a church.
-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004.
David,Luke recorded that Mary said she is been blessed does not meant we have to pray to her. She was blessed to be the mother of Christ.
-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), May 28, 2004.
Henri- I copied this from another thread because I think it's relevent to your question:so, in rome i got the chance to see that catecombs and that was actually really creepy. we saw the catecombs of St. Sebastian, where peter was temporarily buried during the persecutions by nero. anyway, what interested me the most was that on top of what used to be the burial hill (which is now underground with a church built on top) was a stone building used for eating when visiting dead loved ones. only fragments of the walls remain, but they are covered with scratched messages from as early as 300 AD. what do these messages say? they are written to loved ones for prayers... one in particular dating fromm 324 AD states: "Saints Peter and Paul, pray for victor" and then the date.
what does this mean? as early as 300 AD prayers for intercession from the saints were being made by the faithful. pretty powerful message that early christians definately believed in a living and prayerful sainthood, especially because its written in stone.
Originally submitted by: -- paul h
Henri- You have many questions about Catholics that could be answered @ http://www.catholic.com/. If you just want to argue, you are definitely in the right place!!!!!!
-- mark advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), May 28, 2004.
henri, some points to be made...1) if you want to claim that the crusades were persecuting God's people, the next thing you better tell me is that you're islamic and support closing off the holy land to christians. otherwise, i'm going to take this as useless and untrue rhetoric that you were spoon fed and didnt bother to check.
2) no one is REQUIRED to pray to mary. prayer to mary is not worship. in fact, pray in and of itself is not worship, it is comunication. DEVOTION is worship, and we are not devoted to Mary, we are devoted to the Trinity.
3) Jesus provides a perfect example of prayer to the saints during the sermon on the mount. visibly He speaks with elijah and moses. he also told people to act as His PERFECT example showed us to. if His example was perfect, how could the communion of saints be wrong?
4) When mary convinces Jesus to turn the water into wine, it may or may not be considered prayer, since it was entreating on her part. what it DOES clearly represent is the SPECIAL relationship that mary and Jesus shared. the commandments tell us to "honor thy father and thy mother." It is horrendous to think that Jesus broke this commandment by dishonoring His mother in forsaking that precious relationship with her.
-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 28, 2004.
Henri,Luke 1:48(" all generations will call me blessed) refutes your statement that you made in starting this thread were you said, "She is human like us."
May our Lady of Sorrows pray for us.
-- - (David@excite.com), May 28, 2004.
Here is Henri:
Eugene, '' . . . remember this very first Roman Catholic Church? It persecuted the Christians. The Roman Catholic Church tried to unit [e] the churches and see what happen.''That isn't history.
Read the epistle to the Romans, Henri. In Rom 1 :8, Paul says, ''Your faith is proclaimed all over the world.'' That is history; when the apostle says our Church in Rome is the most faithful; famed all over the world. (He wrote to the Romans, Catholic Romans.
How are the Romans of Paul's day famous for faith in Christ all over the world, while persecuting Christians? Are you reading Satan's history? The book of Satan? Because you're making evil and false accusations against Christ's Holy Church.
Even trying to say, ''Roman Catholic Church tried to unit[e] the churches and see what happen [ed],'' is very wrong. It's foolish and antichristian; because Jesus Christ did not found ''all the churches,'' Henri. He founded ONLY ONE CHURCH.
Satan has been teaching you false historical events and false doctrine. You contradict both Saint Paul and the apostles; you contradict Jesus. Come here, and learn the truth. If you sincerely love Jesus Christ, remain with us and reject the errors you were believing. You can find all the truth here.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 28, 2004.
Ok paul h, what exactly were the crusades?
-- Brian the Curious (noemail@nsb.com), May 28, 2004.
Getting back to the question of praying for one another and asking Mary to pray for us: Henri, I believe you asked or commented that it is not necessary to pray to anyone except Jesus. If that were so, then why would Our Lord have told us to pray for one another? Why does St. Paul tell us to pray for one another? If we only needed to each communicate directly to God ourselves,what would be the point of that instruction? Does God not hear us as individuals? I am always amazed that those folks who hold to every word of scripture as being their absolute 100% unshakable foundation of TRUTH brush off the statement made by Jesus while He was literally dying on the cross: "..Behold Thy Mother.." Every single other word or phrase uttered by Jesus as recorded in Holy Scripture is given deep and significant meaning by non-Catholics except this one. I have read volumes devoted to what He said to the "good thief" and how His words meant that Baptism isn't needed to enter Heaven, or that His words meant that when we die, there is no Purgatory, ad infinitum. But His words concerning Mary are given short shrift and dismissed as "well, He was naturally concerned about who would look out for His Mom." Jesus Christ,God-made-Man, Savior of the world about to suffer for the sins of mankind to redeem their eternal souls was "concerned about His mother"? Jesus gave His Blessed Mother to all of us as OUR Mother. "ALL generations shall call me blessed". Not "some", not "many". There is no qualifier there. As others have already said, we do not worship Mary, nor any of the Saints.
-- lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), May 28, 2004.
Eugene,how can you know that the roman church in Paul and Peter's time is the church today, the Roman Catholic Church?
Where in the bible saying that Peter pointed or names someone to be his successor?
How do you know that the Roman Catholic Church is the first church established by St. Peter?
Is the first church established in Jerusalem?
Has the Catholic Church deny that the popes in the 15th century had not wage wars in Jerusalem?
How do you know that the faithful roman church Paul mentioned is the Roman Catholic Church today?
-- Henri (kxiong@zksoft.us), May 28, 2004.
Have you seen the movie "Bruce Almighty"? If Mary can hear our prayers, she would go crazy for the billion of voices daily.
-- Henri (kxiong@zksoft.us), May 28, 2004.
Henri,how can you know that the roman church in Paul and Peter's time is the church today, the Roman Catholic Church?
Matthew 16 18--"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19-- And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
From Catholic Answers: "The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.
Apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. All over the world, all Catholic bishops can have their lineage of predecessors traced back to the time of the apostles, something that is impossible in Protestant denominations (most of which do not even claim to have bishops).
The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first four generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, the generation Timothy will teach, and the generation they in turn will teach."
How do you know that the Roman Catholic Church is the first church established by St. Peter?
See Above
How do you know that the faithful roman church Paul mentioned is the Roman Catholic Church today?
See Above
Is the first church established in Jerusalem?
During its early years, four great centers developed in the Church: Antioch (where Christ’s followers were first called Christians--Acts 11:26), Alexandria, Constantinople, and, most important of all, Rome. The Bishop of Rome (whom we now call the Pope) was the successor of St. Peter, leader of the Apostles, and so was given the first place of honor and called upon to resolve disputes.
Where in the bible saying that Peter pointed or names someone to be his successor?
It doesn't. From New Advent: "All the ancient records of the Roman bishops which have been handed down to us by St. Irenaeus, Julius Africanus, St. Hippolytus, Eusebius, also the Liberian catalogue of 354, place the name of Linus directly after that of the Prince of the Apostles, St. Peter. These records are traced back to a list of the Roman bishops which existed in the time of Pope Eleutherus (about 174- 189), when Irenaeus wrote his book "Adversus haereses"... This author claims that Pope Linus is the Linus mentioned by St. Paul in his II Timothy 4:21. The passage by Irenaeus (Adv. haereses, III, iii, 3) reads: "After the Holy Apostles (Peter and Paul) had founded and set the Church in order (in Rome) they gave over the exercise of the episcopal office to Linus."
Have you seen the movie "Bruce Almighty"? If Mary can hear our prayers, she would go crazy for the billion of voices daily
Bruce Almighty? You are using a Jim Carrey movie to make a point about Mary not being able to hear simultaneous prayers? Give me a break. Paul already answered this above. Why don't you re-read it.
Its past my bedtime. Good night
-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), May 29, 2004.
Henri:
Sorry I haven't replied. I left for a few days when the obscene posts appeared.Yes; we are absolutely certain the Church of the apostles is the Catholic Church. The first Church (the ONLY one) is all of that first holy faith preached by the apostles. She sent missions to all nations, and established them in different cities, beginning with, of course, Jerusalem. So, these separate communities all make up the same Church. None of them deviated from the original doctrine we call the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The reason we have Rome for the center of the Church now is that Peter was in Rome at the time of his martyrdom. He died there, crucified with his feet pointing up to heaven.
Peter was the bishop of this Church in Rome. Very likely this was after the letter of Paul to the Romans, since Paul doesn't mention the bishop.
Where ever the successor to Peter is, then, there is Peter. There is the visible head of the Church. It's still that way today; there exists a documented unbroken line of succession from today's Pope back to the first pope, Saint Peter. That's the visible sign of Christ's Holy Church. He was given primacy over Christ's Church on earth. (Matt 16 :18, John 21:15-17.)
Not only do we have that succession by which to prove the authentic nature of the first Christian Church, the Catholic faith. There are mountains of letters and books quite contemporary to those bishops of the first century; not just of Rome, but of Jerusalem, Antioch, and many others. They all acknowledged the historical truth of Rome with Peter for its bishop. And underneath the City of Rome we still see the catacombs, in which many saints of the early Catholic Church were entombed. There exist still sarcophagi that show carvings in stone, dating back to original days; the days of the apostles & disciples who followed after them. Peter and Paul knew these very people, Henri. They were the saints who kept and preserved the holy writings later to be selected as part of the inspired Word of God by the bishops of this Church. We have it today as our Holy Bible. The Bible you believe in is a product of the Catholic faith; revealed entirely by God.
I don't know what false idea somebody gave you, that the Catholic Church made war on Jerusalem. It's simply fictitous. It isn't found in any history book; and much less in true historical accounts of the Christian world. I'm sorry but someone is lying to you.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 02, 2004.
--Up;
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 02, 2004.
Please. Up, now--
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 02, 2004.
Hi my name's alicia, i am 15 years old i live in england and i have been reading your posts. First of all, the one thing we all believe in is Jesus, yes we know that Mary is his mother, but i belive that when jesus died for us, he made it possible for our sin to be forgiven, and possible so that we can have a relationship with GOd himelf.I don't believe that we need an interceptor, to help us out with that. If you believe in the trinity, then God is also Jesus in flesh form. Jesus can feel pain and emotions like us, HE is my one and only interceptor.
You could argue that the saints are very special to you, but guess what, they were sinners as well, and they have been forgiven just as we have, therefore praying to them is as good as asking a friend. And lastly, you could sit there and go on about the past, wars popes whatever. but fact is, arguing aing gonna change anything.
Look to the futre and your present, have a relationship with Jesus himself, (he's the only way) He is the most amazing and worthy one of us all,for ever, I don't even think we are worthy to act like this.
It's all about the love of God, don't get sidetracked by these arguements. stay focused.
Love to you all out there, christian or not, agreeing with me or not. Alicia
-- Alicia (alicia_weekes@hotmail.com), June 04, 2004.
Hi Alicia,In fact we DO agree with you. Just about everything you said is exactly right! But apparently someone has told you that Catholics don't believe these truths?
You say: "First of all, the one thing we all believe in is Jesus, yes we know that Mary is his mother, but i belive that when jesus died for us, he made it possible for our sin to be forgiven, and possible so that we can have a relationship with GOd himelf."
A: Yes! That is exactly what the Catholic Church has taught for 2,000 years. Catholics do have a relationship with God Himself. That relationship is central in the life of Catholics. The saints are not relationships apart from or instead of our relationship with God. They are relationships which help us strenghthen our relationship with God.
"I don't believe that we need an interceptor, to help us out with that. If you believe in the trinity, then God is also Jesus in flesh form. Jesus can feel pain and emotions like us, HE is my one and only interceptor."
A: The term you want here is intercessor - however, you are right again. Strictly speaking, we do not "need" intercessors. However, personally I take great comfort knowing that other Christians, both on earth and in heaven, are praying for me. Don't your family and friends pray for you? Don't you pray for them? If so, Jesus is not your one and only intercessor, because praying for someone other than yourself is what intercession is. Jesus is our one and only MEDIATOR. That's what the Bible tells us, and that's what the Catholic Church teaches. But that means that Jesus came to repair the break in the relationship between God and men caused by the sin of Adam and Eve. It has nothing to do with interceeding for one another. All Christians are intercessors.
"You could argue that the saints are very special to you, but guess what, they were sinners as well, and they have been forgiven just as we have, therefore praying to them is as good as asking a friend."
A: Again you are exactly right! The saints were sinners, just like us. In some cases, like St. Paul, they were far worse sinners than most of us ever were. They were forgiven, just like us. And we ask them to pray for us, just like we ask a friend.
"Look to the futre and your present, have a relationship with Jesus himself, (he's the only way)"
A: Yes He is! That's what the Catholic Church teaches and has always taught. In fact, the only way you yourself know this is from the Bible, a book compiled by the Catholic Church. The Church would not have placed that particular writing into its book unless it was in full agreement with the teaching of the Church. This is true of everything in the Bible. There CANNOT be a conflict between what is in the book, and the teaching of the Church which put it into the book.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 04, 2004.
Excellent, Paul!
I want to say to Alicia as a faithful Catholic, I've been in England many times, and have a great love for her country. She can believe me when I say English Catholics are as admirable as any in the world.Alicia is very young now; she has time in which to learn the wonderful truth about England's Catholic heritage. The British Isles are literally watered by the blood of holy martyrs. Find yourself the following books, Alicia: Life of Edmund Campion-- and of Thomas More. If she has the education already --necessary to read the tracts and books of Henry Cardinal Newman, it's a very worthwhile eye- opener for any Englishman --or girl. Alicia; when you're in London, visit the bookstore at Westminster Cathedral near Victoria Station. A fine Catholic bookstore. You won't regret it. Take the advice of an American who loves England, Dear.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 04, 2004.
You know what I think about John 2:1-9? I think Mary was telling everyone that she has faith in Jesus.
-- ADT (noemail@please.com), July 14, 2004.