INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

These concepts can also be seen in the following Scriptures:

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

John 9
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Romans 2
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 30, 2004

Answers

bump

-- (bump@bump.bump), May 30, 2004.

A person who dies invinicibly igornant of God and the Truths, will not enter the kindgom of Heaven. This is the constant teaching of the Church through Scripture and Sacred Tradition and the Councils.

A person who is invinicibly ignorant still has original sin. The only way one can lose original sin is (1) through the sacrament of Baptism or (2) one who has the faith workth through chairty and desires to receive the sacrament of baptism. Both are taught at the Council of Trent.

One must understand that the pure form of a person who is invincibly ignorant is a baby. The Church has always taught that if a baby should die before they recieve the sacarment of baptism, they will enter Hell and recieve their just punishments i.e. Limbo - never see God face to face.

Mark

-- Mark Trieger (trieger4@earthlink.net), June 14, 2004.

You are absolutely mistaken. You place a greater value on orthodoxy than on God's infinite mercy. The most orthodox and correct Catholic has only HOPE in Jesus Christ. He might yet lose his immortal soul, with all his wisdom.

Others may not be as wise, but to deny the possibility of salvation to another in this life is a sin. God alone can judge. We must hope God's mercy extends even to someone invincibly ignorant. He's our brother.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 14, 2004.

"A person who dies invinicibly igornant of God and the Truths, will not enter the kindgom of Heaven. This is the constant teaching of the Church through Scripture and Sacred Tradition and the Councils."

A: No, it is not. The constant teaching of the Church is summarized in the Catechism of the Catholic Church; and section 847 of the Catechism clearly states the Church's teaching that ... "those who through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - THOSE TOO MAY ACHIEVE ETERNAL SALVATION".

"A person who is invinicibly ignorant still has original sin. The only way one can lose original sin is (1) through the sacrament of Baptism or (2) one who has the faith workth through chairty and desires to receive the sacrament of baptism. Both are taught at the Council of Trent".

A: That is correct. The effects of Original Sin is removed by either water baptism or baptism of desire (or baptism of blood). In a manner similar to baptism of desire, invincible ignorance removes the EFFECTS of original sin. It acknowledges that the person has no personal responsibility for the fact that original sin has not been removed by the waters of baptism - and is therefore not subject to its eternal consequences. Invincible ignorance is an unavoidable corellary of divine justice. God does not punish a person for involutary ignorance. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

"One must understand that the pure form of a person who is invincibly ignorant is a baby. The Church has always taught that if a baby should die before they recieve the sacarment of baptism, they will enter Hell and recieve their just punishments i.e. Limbo - never see God face to face."

A: Invincible ignorance applies only to persons who are morally capable. A baby is not yet a free moral agent, and therefore the term "invincible ignorance" cannot be applied. The Church does NOT teach that unbaptized babies enter hell. Limbo was never a matter of defined doctrinal teaching, and even when belief in Limbo was a popular tradition, Limbo was never equated with hell. The teaching of the Church, as recorded in the Catechism, section 1261, is ... "As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them". And further ... "the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which cause Him to say: 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them' allows us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who die without Baptism". This is the teaching of the Church.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 15, 2004.

Our salvation begins as a grace, a gift that we must accept and cooperate with toward its intended goal. Invincible Ignorance would represent a lack of grace, with nothing possible for the person in that sorry state to even cooperate with.

Consider a person who has some grace but not all. Not "full of grace". They have an awareness of the Truth. They have been graced by God to begin a journey as a fully believing Catholic Christian. This person attempts to put into practice all the teachings of the Church. But they find that they cannot live up to every teaching of faith and morals. This person is actively praying, partaking in the sacraments regularly, doing charity, doing much of what the saints suggest. In spite of this, this soul has one or maybe two serious bad habits they can't fully extinguish via God's good graces. They go to confession often and have a firm purpose of amendment but to no avail. Then they die.

Could we say that the person got the grace to know the truth but did not have the grace to live up to all of it? Thus they were like the invincibly ignorant so-to-speak regarding their lack of grace to stay free of all sin that was of a grave matter. Perhaps we can say habit reduced their responsibility but it was a grave matter. Can it be that God chose not to grace the Catholic to remain free of a sin completely no matter what the person did; just as God can chose to let another person remain invincibly ignorant of his Church? Can that be?

-- Mike H. (mikeh@hotmail.com), July 07, 2004.

There is a lot of interesting discussion about those who will be going to heaven or not. I'm baptized, and not ignorant, but I don't wan't to assume I'm going to heaven! I know that I'm not the greatest person, and definitely not the perfect Catholic, and I can't seem to even get to confession enough to keep up with my sins. I just pray that that when the time comes, I have no mortal sin on my soul, and enough of God's grace and mercy to not go to Hell. Purgatory is another story, however! LB

-- Lydia Byrd (oiseaumouche@aol.com), July 08, 2004.

No soul will enter heaven in a state of mortal sin; Catholic or not.

Mike, you wonder-- ''Can it be that God chose not to grace the Catholic to remain free of a sin completely no matter what the person did; just as God can chose to let another person remain invincibly ignorant of his Church? Can that be?''

God does give sufficient grace for the soul to remain without grave sins. But we still have free will. ''No matter what the person did'' is a negative attitude.

Invincible ignorance is a condition of the soul in the world. Ignorance that mitigates not against sinning, but against hearing and understanding the Gospel. But even the ignorant soul has free will, and might feel sorrow for his sins. He can live an upright life if he chooses; and he can love God even if he never hears the Gospel. Therefore, God will forgive him, It's the forgiveness we receive through Jesus Christ that brings us to salvation. To be forgiven we have to repent. It only requires our will, by the grace of God.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 08, 2004.

Another passage (a parable) that supports Invincible Ignorance:

Luke 12 (KJV)
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), September 06, 2004.

Emily, if invincible ignorance refers rather to knowledge of the gospel or lack thereof, instead of referring the committing of sins, can you absolutely say that these verses you present support such a doctrine? Are you absolutely certain that they refer to the hearing of the gospel?

The context is of the parable of the master and the servants. Are unbelievers to be considered as being in this category? Because if not, then it is surely not referring to the gospel, because all believers have the knowledge of the gospel. I believe it's referring to a differnt knowledge than that of the gospel. However, if you believe that the servants refers to unbelievers also, then I can perhaps see your point.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), September 08, 2004.

oliver, emily is quite correct, we are ALL servants of God, whether we are believers or not

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), September 08, 2004.

But isn't a servant a person who serves ? How do unbelievers serve God? Are there some verses you can refer me to that states that everyone is a servant of God?

Here are some verses that I use to support my position:

Luke 16:3 - No household servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate one and love the other, or he will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

John 12:26 - If anyone serves me, let Him follow me; and where I am, there also My servant will be. If anyone serves me, the Father will honour him.

Romans 13:4 - For he is a servant of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), September 08, 2004.

Well Oliver, the way I see it, the one servant went to hell and the other to purgatory. I think that both are servants because it is just a parable talking about our relationship with God (the master). I don't think that everything in parables can always have a direct connection. If that were true, you would have to say that God was a shrewd man, harvesting where he had not sown and gathering where he had not scattered seed, as one parable portrays the master. We know that this cannot be God, since it sounds like stealing, and that is not in God's nature to do. So there can't always be exact parallels.

I see what you mean about not being a servant of both God and the devil. I think those passages are in another context, though. I usually take parables as entities unto themselves to illustrate a point. I would say that in this parable, the "servants" were all of them. If they were believers, then why would the one end up in hell?

God bless, and thanks for asking! :)

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), September 08, 2004.

As for Scripture, God says that:

Philippians 2 (KJV)
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So basically, all will be servants of God eventually. It just depends on whether we choose God now or serve Him on Judgement Day when it will be sadly too late for many. Let us pray for more souls to come to Christ!

Thanks for asking, and please feel free to ask any more questions if you like. What do you think of the doctrine of "invincible ignorance"? Is there something you disagree with about it?

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), September 08, 2004.

Well Oliver, the way I see it, the one servant went to hell and the other to purgatory.

Emily, thankyou for your response. I would strongly disagree with your position. Firstly, I do not believe that the parable has one servant going to hell and another to purgatory. There are in fact three servants mentioned, not two.

One servant was given five talents, who later made a profit of an additional five talents, the second servant who received two talents, made an additional two, and the final servant who was given one talent, buried his, and gave it back to his master. This servant was punished because of his slothfulness.

Secondly, if we look at the passage closely, we will find what the Lord said to the two faithful slaves who had made a profit: "Well done good and faithful servant, you have been faithful over a few things, now I set you over many things, enter into the joy of your master.

Entering into the joy of the master is not to enter into purgatory. It is to enter into the kingdom of the heavens, in which the glorified tripartite man is united with God to reign in life.

Thirdly, the servant who was lazy, was not an unbeliever. He was definitely a believer, who had received the gospel. He was someone who did not obey Romans 12:11. If you look at Matthew 25:26 - This person knew that the Lord reaps where He doesn't sow, and gathers where he does not winnow. This verse proves that it's talking about a beliver, because an unbeliever has no knowledge of this, since they don't know God or know the things of God (1 Cor 2:14).

I think that both are servants because it is just a parable talking about our relationship with God (the master). I don't think that everything in parables can always have a direct connection. If that were true, you would have to say that God was a shrewd man, harvesting where he had not sown and gathering where he had not scattered seed, as one parable portrays the master. We know that this cannot be God, since it sounds like stealing, and that is not in God's nature to do. So there can't always be exact parallels.

It has nothing to do with stealing or anything like that. It's not even to do with something physical. This is a spiritual matter. What God cares for is not a physical increase or even monetary. The Lord is talking about something which is altogether spiritual. According to Solomon, the writer of Ecclesiastes, "Everything under the sun is vanity of vanities." The Lord is not going to punish someone therefore for not gaining something physical for Him. Rather He wants us to make a spiritual profit. (Luke 12:33)

What the Lord desires is that we would build up the organic body of Christ, the kingdom of the heavens, which is the church, as the divine and human incorporation of God and man. God desires the increase of Christ expressed through man, by the abundant supply of the spirit, through eating the word, drinking the Spirit in prayer, and functioning as living members to speak for God, speak fourth God, and speak God into others.

If we would only be those who receive the Lord's life through regeneration, and do not grow in this life to build up the church, then we are just as that servant who buried their talent in the ground.

Fourthly, I don't believe that the lazy servant is condemned to hell. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even the Catholic church does not regard laziness as a mortal sin, so at worst, this sinner could only go to purgatory for such a sin. Then again, I do not hold to the doctrine of purgatory. I do however believe that those belivers of the Lord who do not mature in life, will be dealt with by the Lord. Although judicially they have been saved by the precious, powerful blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, they lack the organic aspect of salvation unto maturity.

Therefore, I believe the Lord will deal with them to bring them unto maturity. Just as a stone undergoes intense heat and pressure to be consituted as a precious stone, so too I believe the Lord deals with His believers to constitute them as precious stones which ultimately consummate with all believers in the New Jerusalem. This is not to purify them, because I believe they are already washed in the blood of the lamb, however it is to organically, metabollically transform them so that Christ will be expressed in their entire being - body, soul, and spirit (1 Thes 5:23).

I see what you mean about not being a servant of both God and the devil. I think those passages are in another context, though. I usually take parables as entities unto themselves to illustrate a point. I would say that in this parable, the "servants" were all of them. If they were believers, then why would the one end up in hell? Hopefully, my above remarks have clarified this matter.

God bless, and thanks for asking! :)

Same to you Emily, 8-) I always appreciate your posts on the board.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), September 09, 2004.

Oliver, I think the confusion here is arising from the fact that we are talking about two different parables. The one to which you refer contains 3 servants, one of whom is lazy, and all receive talents. The parable to which I refer is shown below:

Luke 12 (KJV)
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Thanks for your reply, though, and sorry if I contributed to the confusion. I agree that the interpretation of the parable of the talents would be different and not likely involve invincible ignorance since the servant was stated as lazy.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), September 11, 2004.

RYYYYYYY

-- R (6@E.COM), September 11, 2004.

"Invincible ignorance," says St. Thomas Aquinas, "is a punishment for sin." (De Infid. q. x., art. 1.)

In his Encyclical Letters, dated Dec. 8, 1849; Dec.. 8, 1864; and Aug. 10, 1863, and in his Allocution on Dec. 9, 1854: Pope Pius IX. says: -

"It is not without sorrow that we have learned another not less pernicious error, which has been spread in several parts of Catholic countries, and has been imbibed by many Catholics, who are of opinion that all those who are not at all members of the true Church of Christ, can be saved: Hence they often discuss the question concerning the future fate and condition of those who die without having professed the Catholic faith, and give the most frivolous reasons in support of their wicked opinion . . . . .

"We must mention and condemn again that most pernicious error, which has been imbibed by certain Catholics, who are of the opinion that those people who live in error and have not the true faith, and are separated from Catholic unity, may obtain life everlasting. Now this opinion is most contrary to Catholic faith, as is evident from the plain words of our Lord, (Matt. xviii. 17 ; Mark xvi. 16; Luke x. 16; John iii. 18) as also from the words of St. Paul, (II. Tim. Iii. 11) and of St. Peter (II. Peter. ii. 1). To entertain opinions contrary to this Catholic faith is to be an impious wretch.

"We therefore again reprobate, proscribe, and condemn all and every one of these perverse opinions and doctrines, and it is our absolute will and command that all sons of the Catholic Church shall hold them as reprobated, proscribed, and condemned. It belongs to our Apostolic office to rouse your Episcopal zeal and watchfulness to do all in your power to banish from the minds of the people such impious and pernicious opinions, which lead to indifference of religion, which we behold spreading more and more, to the ruin of souls. Oppose all your energy and zeal to these errors and employ zealous priests to impugn and annihilate them, and to impress very deeply upon the minds and hearts of the faithful the great dogma of our most holy religion, that salvation can be had only in the Catholic faith. Often exhort the clergy and the faithful to give thanks to God for the great gift of the Catholic faith."

-- Bernard (bluyben@telusplanet.net), November 07, 2004.