Let's pray for President Bush's daughter's safe arrival at the shrine of Santiago Compostela. May Our Lord accompany Jenna and her friends and keep away all harm and misfortune. We hope and trust in Thee, Holy Lord! Amen /

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040602/482/mad80306021652

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-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 02, 2004

Answers

UP ?

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-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 02, 2004.

Hi Eugene,

Is she Catholic? Perhaps we can pray for her conversion if not.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 02, 2004.

Can't say, Emily. Somebody here mentioned her uncle is a convert. The Bush's are Presbyterians I think. In any case, This must be a first in our presidential history.

Here's Bush in an audience this week with Pope John Paul II. The Holy Father: ''How is the family, George?''

''Just fine, Yer Holiness. My daughter is on a pilgrimage to the shrine of Saint James. She's there to pray for me and my country, I figure.'' Ha ha !

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 02, 2004.

Something suddenly occurs to me:

The name Matamoros (Moor Killer--) is an admittedly irreverent handle attached to the apostle Santiago by Spaniards. There's a legend the great saint was seen in visions above a battle against the Moorish enemy, during those wars. In the vision he is mounted on a white charger, flailing away at his Moorish enemies below. An incendiary vision, indeed.

Is it ironic now? The President's child at his holy shrine, in pilgrimage? You couldn't write this in a pop novel like Da Vi nci Code. Too far-fetched.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 02, 2004.

''Just fine, Yer Holiness. My daughter is on a pilgrimage to the shrine of Saint James. She's there to pray for me and my country, I figure.'' ("I reckon" is more likely)

John Paul II:Really, George? Cynic that I am, I figured she was there for a photo op to coincide with your visit to me (haha). Now, George, about that UNJUST war you started last year that's resulted in more than 6,000 dead human beings, so far . . . . "

-- I-talian (Skeptical@Cybernet.com), June 02, 2004.

I-talics Off

-- I-talian (Skeptical@Cybernet.com), June 02, 2004.

Does Geo W. Bush tick you off? Do WE tick you off?

Good.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 02, 2004.

Maybe a Catholic should not regard having succeeded in "ticking people off" as his proudest and most satisfying achievement.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), June 02, 2004.

The Joker rears his head. LOL! I guess he's got his Bush-hating radar on. I-talian sounds alot like the Joker, cynic that he is, don't you think eugene? Oh, I guess not, he spells skeptical with a "k."

Btw, I must have missed where eugene said that he regarded having succeeded in "ticking people off" as his proudest and most satisfying achievement. Was this deleted?

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), June 03, 2004.

It’s called irony, Mr Crane. You LOL a lot, but where’s your sense of humor? And I told you I’m NOT a cynic.

BTW Mr Bush is not a Presbyterian but a Methodist. I quote Chris Potter of the Pittsburgh City Paper:

“Methodists called for an end to the U.S.’s long-standing economic sanctions against Cuba. [Methodist] church leaders held a May 4 press conference at which Bishop McKinley Young wryly noted that President Bush is “not the only one who hears from God.” While Bush has said he consulted a “higher Father” in deciding to go to war in Iraq, Young countered, “We did not elect him as the priest of the nation. We elected him as president.” Though Methodists have been critical of the war in Iraq, Young’s remarks drew little attention locally or nationally. Which is odd, given that President Bush is a Methodist himself. How scary is it that his own church wants him to remember the separation of church and state? Compare the flurry of media attention that Bush rival John Kerry, a pro-choice Catholic, received when a Catholic archbishop proclaimed that communion should be denied to politicians who support abortion rights. Journalists used the communion flap to investigate Kerry’s religious credentials, a critique the President himself has been spared.”

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), June 03, 2004.

"May Our Lord accompany Jenna and her friends and keep away all harm and misfortune."

Especially keep her away from the sangria while she's in Spain; it's deadly stuff! I guess that's why she's going on a WALKING vacation instead of driving.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), June 03, 2004.

I'm very familiar with Santiago Compostela and with most of Spain. I can testify to the great taste of sangria. Sangria's one of the best drinks we had there; me & my wife. Liked the sherry as well. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it, Jokesey.

Yes; we must pray for this young lady. Her pilgrimage might not impress you, but why should that matter to Saint James?

There is no ''communion flap'' in our Church, either. The flap is over what one hypocrite calls his 'faith''. He sees nothing bad about receiving Holy Communion in a state of mortal sin.

If Bush is also a sinner, we leave him to God. What the Methodist church thinks about war is irrelevant. We are very proud of our good President. He is sincere in his religious faith; and we hope someday he'll be received into the Church of his blessed ancestors. (I hope you won't object.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 03, 2004.

One little thing more, Joke:
Senator Kerry isn't ''pro- choice''. He's for abortion on demand. PRO-ABORTION; don't forget that.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 03, 2004.

Yes Mr Chavez I’ve tried both sangria and sherry, but unlike the Bush family, I know when to stop, and when not to drive.

If you object to the words “communion flap” or that weaselly expression “pro-choice” , take it up with Mr Potter; they’re his words not mine. I was just illustrating Mr Bush’s difficult relationship with his church. One would think that "what the Methodist church thinks about war" would be VERY relevant to a Methodist president waging a war. I didn’t change Potter’s words in the extract from his article, because unlike some others here I don’t like to put words into others’ mouths. I’m well aware of Kerry’s pro- abortion activities, even if "Pope Pius XXIII" told him "anything goes" on abortion.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), June 03, 2004.

Especially keep her away from the sangria while she's in Spain; it's deadly stuff! I guess that's why she's going on a WALKING vacation instead of driving.

LOL, Joker. At least she's old enough not to need fake ID anymore.

-- I-talian (Skeptical@Cybernet.com), June 03, 2004.

You think cynical remarks about Bush's daughter make you better judges of our President? Good luck, if that's your yardstick. All you do is demonstrate a lack of good will. Because you haven't any good will.

I want us all to pray for the girl's safe return from her pilgrimage. She might be in danger, after all. You only want to mock her.

When I mock imbeciles like you, you get your backs up & cry foul. You hope to make me shut up by ridiculing Bush and his daughter and me. As if you'd said something worthwhile. Yet you can't make me cry. I see through you both. You've made asses of yourselves.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 03, 2004.

Hi Gene, nothing changes my old friend, good to see others are keeping you honest! STay well old boy and watch that blood pressure.

God Bless Peace! :)

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), June 04, 2004.

Hell no, the last thing I want to do is make you shut up. You supply all my best humor material. But if I haven't said something worthwhile, why do you bother replying to it? I may ridicule, but at least I don't call people rude names.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), June 04, 2004.

And you mocked her first with your "Ha, ha" to the idea that she was going to do any praying on her powerwalking vacation.

And speaking of mockery, what's with all this "Moor-killer" legend garbage? It's not only "irreverent", it's downright incitement to racist murder and a mockery of the holy apostle St James, who I'm sure never killed anyone.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), June 04, 2004.

Joke is working overtime at this thread. Wonder what for? If I give you cause for your best humor, and it now falls flat; your worst humor must be awfully rotten. I only respond when you give ME material, Jokesey. And you deserve the rude names, Pal. For raining on Jenna Bush's parade; your completely gratuitous insult.

I might tell you about Santiago Matamoros; and bust you up again. However, you don't inspire me to any real effort. Maybe somebody else here would like to inform you about it. I'll give others a chance, for today.

Let me just say that Santiago Matamoros is an actual title for the saint in Spain. He is Spain's patron. All the Spanish feel he protected them and gave them victory over the Moslems (Moors) during the wars of their expulsion. Nothing to do with a racial war, or your idea of injustices. Moors were the enemies of all Christendom in that era. I recommend a study of these wars if you're interested. Don't return to ask me any more about it.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 04, 2004.

She made it to the shrine just fine.

-bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@hotmail.com), June 04, 2004.

Joker said: It’s called irony, Mr Crane. You LOL a lot, but where’s your sense of humor? And I told you I’m NOT a cynic

The sangria thing was mildly amusing (I'll give credit where credit is due) but not half as amusing as you popping up at the first mention of Bush in quite a while. I LOL'd that because I literally laughed out loud when I saw your name. Yeah, I know you told me you're not a cynic. Whatever. Please allow me to disagree with you. What's so bad about that anyway. I told you that I myself am cynical about certain things. You also seem to regard yourself as the depository of humor around here. I hope you can live up to your self image.

Bill,

Thanks for the update. I know a couple of people who have made this journey and it definitely made an impact on them. I hope it made an impact on her.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), June 05, 2004.

No Mr Chavez, as the song from Isaiah goes “I ain’t gonna study war no more.” I’ll leave it you to get your kicks from your incendiary belligerent fantasies. The Moors, Mr Chavez, are a race, not a religion, and to kill them on that basis is racist murder. (Not that it’s any better to kill Muslims because of religious bigotry.)

Mr Crane, I don't regard myself as the sole or biggest source of humor round here. The biggest (unintentionally) would be Mr Chavez. I just try to lighten things up a bit. You're welcome to try to outdo me if you want.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), June 06, 2004.

And speaking of mockery, what's with all this "Moor-killer" legend garbage? It's not only "irreverent", it's downright incitement to racist murder and a mockery of the holy apostle St James, who I'm sure never killed anyone.

This is for you Eugene: Public outcry forces church to keep Moor Slayer's statue

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), July 22, 2004.

thanks, Brian; for the update.

These boys had no clue at all about the Spanish religious tradition which gave rise to devotion to Saint James.

Considering the tragic events that led to Spain's current government; it should not surprise us their socialists have tried to stifle Catholic protest in that country. This would have been the last straw. After suffering the obscene Muslim coup of Atocha, March 11, 2004, having to deny Santiago Matamoros because extremist Muslims might take offense. I know for my own part how unhappy the Catholics of Spain are with the outcome of March 11. A nation that has long understood the importance of the faith, and of dauntless courage; the land of El Cid; now having been disquieted into fear and appeasement by a leftist party; afraid to displease terrorists in their own homeland.

Santiago is Spain's beloved patron; and covering him up had to challenge every faithful Spaniard where it hurts most. I'm happy to see good Spanish Catholics rise up and defend him. God bless and keep them.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 23, 2004.

Er, who is it who has “no clue at all” to what he claims to be an expert about? Mr Chavez, try reading what the article Mr Crane posted actually says (or indeed reading anything other than the extremist militant reactionary demagogues who seem to be your sole source of information). The decision to cover the statue was made by the Catholic church, not by the (as you imagine) “wicked” socialist government (which Spanish Catholics democratically elected), and which has certainly NOT “tried to stifle Catholic protest”. LOL!

“I know for my own part how unhappy the Catholics of Spain are with the outcome of March 11.” Yeah that’s an incredibly gifted insight by you. Presumably non-Catholics are HAPPY to see dozens of innocents murdered?

Have you ever considered waking up and living in the REAL world? You are the only one who’s “attacking” the holy non-violent St James, the first apostle to be martyred, a death he accepted rather than taking up the sword himself; obedient to the commands of his Master.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), July 23, 2004.

Let me tell you, Joker; what the real world is. I clearly stated SPAIN, the voters, came to a decision from fear and horror after being attacked by Muslim terrorists --a decision to follow after the socialist party that denigrated Aznar and Bush and Blair-- instead of remaining brave and Christian as before. They forgot for one day the principles they always fought for, and went into hiding from perceived danger. This was not the Church's work. It was leftist political expediency at work in a Catholic country.

Only afterward, NOW, is there a reaction to their un-Spanish and cowardly election. That tells you why there has been this outcry against changing anything in Santiago. Matamoros doesn't run away from danger. Clergymen may seem feeble in the face of Muslim terror to us. But not the people. They are a people who fought and conquered atheistic Communism when it had made them a Soviet satellite much like Poland and Bulgaria. They threw out the agents of Moscow just as they'd thrown out the Moors in 1492. Why will they now be afraid that Muslims will hate the statue of Santiago Matamoros? Just because YOU love Muslims? You assume too much, Jokesey.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 24, 2004.

Unlike you, I respect Spanish Catholics’ right to "denigrate" the belligerent lies of Aznar, Blair, and Bush, while simultaneously "remaining brave and Christian". I’m so sorry that the government which Spanish Catholics democratically elected is "un- Spanish" and politically incorrect by your standards. Let’s tell them next time don’t bother having an election, just ask the omniscient Mr Chavez who should rule them! After all, that was the system under the brutal fascist dictator Franco whom you obviously admire so much, who “threw out” (i.e. killed) the “agents of Moscow” (i.e. democratically elected socialist government and those who voted for it). Yes I love Muslims, and yes I had assumed too much. I had assumed that you too at least pretended to love, after a fashion, those who differ from you. Now I see you are filled with bitter and vicious hatred for them.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), July 24, 2004.

Excellent. Every calumny is now exhausted and off your feeble mind. We leave you to your drab existence.

Not a single thing you've said is accurate, nor is it Christian. Certainly not the outcome of Catholic doctrine.

I'm sure you love, ''after a fashion'' all peoples and places and ideologies. I do not hate a people; I hate and fear a false prophet who moves millions of people to commit atrocities in Allah's name. I will not & do not repudiate here the holy apostle James.

He has most certainly interceded for his people at the most serious junctures of their history. He allowed by this intercession for the expulsion of heretical fanatics. The apparition which came to be known as Santiago Matamoros, Moor-Slayer-- is clearly only allegorical. I never stated he had himself chopped off heads. We know of other allegorical scenes which have appeared to Catholic mystics. Apparitions showing Our Blessed Mother-- treading upon the moon, or bearing the Christ Child. (He is not a baby any longer; do I make myself clear to you?) --You, since you are a mere Joker, have ZERO understanding of what God will permit in our lives. Whatever imposes upon your credulity is cast aside as false.

What is NOT false, but a historical reality, is: the Spanish monarchs were successful in casting out unwanted Muslim occupants of Spain. Catholic Spain.

Franco was a fervent Catholic first, a dictator after. The ''elected'' Republicans were agents of the Soviet Union. Another historical reality. At the cost of a nasty Civil War they too were sent away packing. You only need a simple Google search to fully inform yourself of the basis for my claims.

We've discussed this civil war in the forum in the past. Almost everything in the discussion resulted in vindication of Franco and the Catholic Church in Spain, whom he served valiantly. (Can't expect YOU to understand. You are a leftist yourself.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 24, 2004.

Re: The Spanish Civil War

Written by Hugh Thomas Published by Modern Library (December 2001) ISBN 0375755152 --Available at www.amazon.com

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 24, 2004.

http://20th-century-history-books.com/0375755152.html

Sorry. Tried making a hyper link and erased the URL. This is it.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 24, 2004.

“Franco was a fervent Catholic first, a dictator after.” Just like his pals Hitler and Mussolini. There’s no “calumny” from me. As I have finally got you to openly admit, you shamelessly root for murderous fascism and sickeningly try to enlist Catholicism to support your ignoble cause.

-- Joker (jpker@cybernet.com), July 25, 2004.

Thanks, Jokie; My ignoble cause. There's no cause. I believe in combatting the enemies of the Catholic faith. What's this word, ''sickeningly''--?

Franco was not ''just like'' Hitler & Mussolini. He was strictly a civil war general and afterwards Spain's dictator. He never invaded any other country. He defended his own country from Stalinists. Both Mussolini (in a mediocre way) and Hitler stormed across their borders into other countries. Both of them got their arses kicked. Franco didn't. He lived to a ripe old age, and dying he received Christ's sacraments.

He asked forgiveness of God & all whom he had treated unjustly. He forgave all who had treated him unjustly. He died in the state of grace. Hitler and Mussolini couldn't have.

Little details like that go over your head, naturally. From here on I should shamelessly root for you to get a life. Ciao, bruto e crudele.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 25, 2004.

You'd better buy a new dictionary if yours hasn’t got "sickeningly” in it. And you continue to add sickeningly to your fabulous hagiography of your bloodthirsty hero Franco. All those people in Guernica and elsewhere who were killed by German Nazi forces at Franco’s command, are simply “unpersons” to you. Franco was smarter than his pals Hitler and Mussolini. He got them to do his dirty work outside his country while he concentrated on killing and oppressing his own countrymen, knowing that if he invaded other countries he too would get his ass kicked, but that he could save his fascist regime by posing, like so many other tinpot murderous dictators, as part of America's defence against communism.

Hitler or Mussolini "could't have" died in a state of grace? How dare you presume to anticipate and prevent their contrition and God's mercy. You have absolutely no way of knowing whether they or Judas or anyone else died in a state of grace. But little details like that go way over your head, naturally.

And it’s rude to speak to someone in a language he doesn’t understand. Just because I know more about Spanish history than you doesn’t mean I can speak Spanish.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), July 25, 2004.

My last words were not Spanish, they're in Italian, Jokesey. Rude possibly, but not as rude as ''You supply all my best humor material,'' and that tinpot exaggeration, ''sickening--ly.''

Not only isn't your humor humorous, your Spanish history isn't historical. Don't pat yourself on the back because you parrot the liberal nonsense written about Franco. He confessed and received Holy Communion before his death. Hitler didn't.

If you're anxious to forgive Hitler and Saddam Hussein, and never judge; extend the same charity to Franco. Extend some to me. I'm not anxious to condemn you, Your own words condemn you. Your vast ignorance shoots you down, Joke.

Why don't you address the point I make about your followers of a false prophet? Are you also a Muslim? A Black Muslim, maybe? Are you Joker X --? ? ?

In closing let me remind you: you are NOT defending ''innocent'' people anywhere, anyplace. Nor were all the people of Guernica innocent; although many innocent died. You ignore the facts of Communism in Spain, and the fact Franco never attacked any other country. You're totally ignorant of Spanish civil War history.

Franco's German allies (Nazis, of course) were also at war with Stalin. They ruthlessly bombed COMMUNISTS. War is ruthless, and enemies can be ruthless.

We know many innocent people died in Guernica. And the truth is, Communists killed even MORE innocent victims than Franco did. Truly innocent and mostly faithful Catholics.

Our war vs. Iraq has NOT been ruthless or unjust, Except for the evil done by so-called faithful MUSLIMS. Take the time to read all the facts before you try to teach others. You've made a complete fool of yourself writing to me, Joke.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 26, 2004.

Well excuse my ignorance but I don’t speak Italian either, but it’s obvious that despite all your posturing about your Spanish roots, your grasp of Spanish history is very limited (or else you deliberately ignore all facts which contradict your pet theory). What about treating your neighbor as you want him to treat you? You take offense just because I say you provide my best humor material, and because I use the word “sickeningly” which for some unfathomable reason offends you, but you unhesitatingly call me an “imbecile”, an “ass”, a “joke” etc. and expect me to just turn the other cheek.

I don’t judge Franco, I’m just pointing out that it’s not up to you to state categorically that anyone is in Hell. “Your own words condemn you. Your vast ignorance shoots you down.”

“the fact Franco never attacked any other country” – you’re forgetting his African campaigns. Oh yes that’s right you think it’s GOOD to kill muslims and Moors. And you seem to forget “Franco's German allies (Nazis, of course) were also at war with US! They ruthlessly bombed BRITAIN, FRANCE, POLAND" and dozens of other democratic countries. We all know Communists killed more people than anyone else. That does NOT make it OK to exterminate whole populations so long as some of them are Communists! Read how God himself was willing to spare Sodom and Gomorrah for the sake of a few just men.

No I am not a Muslim (not that that would justify your attacks on me). As I told you before I am a loyal Catholic who follows the guidance of the Pope and bishops. You should try it, it may help overcome your misanthropy.

"Take the time to read all the facts before you try to teach others. You've made a complete fool of yourself writing to me," Mr Chavez.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), July 26, 2004.

Thanks for ripping off about a fourth of my posts, Joker. You found new words when your own well had gone dry? Confiscating what your cheery opponent wrote?

I have no ''pet theory''. I'm speaking nothing but the truth. If you won't investigate, it's your loss. My only aim was to defend my country from the false accusations you made acting like judge and jury. That's my right as an American. It is justice as I perceive it.

Your idea of justice has falsehood for a basis. This comes from ignorance of (1.) God's Word, (2.) Ignorance of Islamic global terrorism, (3.) and your failure to understand history. (It shows in your immature posts, I'm not imagining it.) I only thank God you have no power whatsoever to affect any event or influence a single soul. If I could say this charitably I would. You don't appreciate charity anyway, so I say it bluntly. NOW; Please stop replying to my posts. You have nothing new to contribute or I would welcome your replies. Thanks and God bless you; may He make you useful in the long run. I mean that sincerely.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 27, 2004.

Let's ask Joker again:

How about the Muslim prophet? Does he pick up where Jesus Christ left off?

Are you in tune with holy war against the ''infidel'' ? ? ?

Is this a question you'd rather not answer?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 28, 2004.

See what I mean about him supplying my best humor material? He demands that I “ stop replying to my posts. You have nothing new to contribute.” When I comply with his demand he calls me a coward for not answering his questions!

All right then, but no doubt you’ll complain that I answered them. No I do not support your so-called “ holy war against the infidel”. I esteem and honor Muslims. They adore and deeply revere the one true living, merciful and all-powerful God who made Heaven and Earth and speaks to and will judge all men. They follow Abraham in striving to submit to God’s word. They revere and honor Jesus and the Blessed Virgin Mary. They prize morality and worship God notably through devoted prayer, charity and fasting.

I quoted your words back to you because when I rebuke you in much milder terms than you vilify me, you accuse me of being rude. If I use your own words you can hardly say they are rude when I say them but not when you say them.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), July 28, 2004.

Your protest has big teeth Grandma. Don't bite anybody, please.

Look at this: ''I do not support your so- called “ holy war against the infidel”. I esteem and honor Muslims.-- ''

If Muslims didn't have ''holy war'' on the collective mind since Muhammad waged it all over his world, you could call it just ''my so-called holy war.''

The wonderful Muslims you esteem do descend from Father Abraham. It didn't keep them from killing Christians and Jews over some 20 centuries. They do these things as Muhammad instructed them to. And that's my only point; which you try to evade. Muhammad is a false prophet. They revere him and revere him OVER Jesus Christ and Mary the Mother of God. Of course, you knew this, and how they also deny Jesus is God the Son.

All because of one false prophet. The same prophet who teaches them all about Jihads and submission to himself as Allah's prophet. Do you believe he's a true prophet of God? If not, how can you support this false religion your esteemed and honorable people were taught? All about female circumcisions and chopping off of hands and heads, and blowing up innocent people on buses and in market places? All for ''Allah''--??? (Oh-- Sorry. Have I ''vilified'' you? Please, Gene. Be kind to Joker; be kind to Muhammad the prophet. Be silent or we'll cut off your head, Gene.. )

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbel.net), July 28, 2004.

Your unintentional humor just keeps on coming. Go on, tell us how Muslims managed to “killing Christians and Jews over some 20 centuries” – 600 years before Mohammad was even born!

"mohammad waged war all over his world" - where are you getting this stuff from? At the time he died Mohammad was unknown to the world outside a small area around Mecca and Medina.

Your hatred of muslims is matched only by your ignorance of them, with your totally inverted claim that Mohammed “teaches them all about Jihads and submission to himself”. The very basis of Islam is submission to the one true God, not to Mohammad, who they insist was only a man and must not be worshipped. Of course like every religion except Catholicism, Islam is to some extent a false religion. That doesn’t justify your hatred of them, or your hatred of me for esteeming them.

Jihad, by the way, is understood by 99% of Muslims as a spiritual struggle against the evil in one's own soul. I suggest you try it.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), July 29, 2004.

Yes, after I submitted the post I had to wince at that number. A senior moment, I guess; to keep me from becoming proud. --God allowed me to throw you that bone, and you pounce on it with glee. Hahaha!

''- -waged war all over his world'' isn't a mistake. It's what Muhammad did. Haven't you ever seen the scimitar, symbolic of Isl-am waging war for ''Allah'' -- ? ? ? Muhammad was in a world of his own. That's why Muslims call them ''this holy city,'' or ''that holy city.'' The places of a prophet's greatness. You have an argument with this?

I can dismiss your simplistic accusations. Because In my heart I never hated any Muslim for himself. I stated here before, meeting and admiring some few of them. They're a lovely people. I lived upstairs in San Diego, from Touba, a very old and sweet Iranian lady. My wife and I treated her with affection and respect. So, your calumny is a little over the top, Joke.

I do not love or admire the prophet Muhammad. He is a false prophet as sure as the sun rises in the east. He teaches Islamic peoples to hate infidels; and to deny the Father and the Son, in favor of a heretical (Israelite) monotheism. Muhammad is held in higher esteem by far, than Jesus Christ, or the Blessed Virgin Mary-- by followers of this evil prophet. And, YES-- He did absolutely live a cruel, violent and bestial life of his own. Muhammad subdued tribes all around, to HIMSELF as the great prophet of God. Making them all submit by the sword.

He also ''wrote'' a false holy book. What good influences it contains were ripped off the religious faith of the people of Israel. Making him-- and the Qu ran-- heretical offshoots of Judaism.

Your baseless claim about 99% of Islamic beleivers knowing Jihad is spiritual struggle- - Is just whitewash. You're full of BS, about this. The criminals who attacked us on 9-11 were all Muslim fanatics; to them, it was HOLY. And- millions of Muslims around the world celebrated it as Jihad-- parading in unholy joy and throwing candies to their kids in the streets. From enclaves and Islamic communities all over; from Egypt to the U. S.

However, my denunciation is not due to hatred for them. I feel sorry for them, because they're in a snare of ignorance and hatred for US.

I don't hate anybody, Joker; and certainly not YOU. I just think you're incapable of adult reasoning. I'm sorry-- it shows in almost every post you make. Go ahead and tell lies about me, and about the U.S. and Bush. You are too transparently biased to influence anybody. You're an open book.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), July 29, 2004.

“Transparently biased”? “Incapable of adult reasoning”? What do you call someone who casually dismisses and disregards all rational argument, the official statements and acts of the Church he claims to be more loyal to than anyone else, even the evidence of his own personal experience of the Muslims he has met, and condemns a fifth of the world’s population, merely for the convenience of supporting his own personal political and racial bias and mindless sectarian bigotry?

You choose to insist that the tiny minority of idiots who support terrorism are representative of all Muslims. Despite the fact that 99% of Muslims condemn it. Despite the fact that Muslims are the overwhelming majority of VICTIMS of Al-Quaida and its affiliates. Go and read what the Church REALLY says about Islam and try THINKING about it instead of spouting off your ignorant vengeful fantasies. I am the Joker and you are the sick "joke".

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), August 01, 2004.

My posts aren't just for your benefit, Jokesie. You know I've explained at length the importance of deriding and neutralizing your puny accusations and ridiculous opinions. Because there might be any number of witnesses to this debate that think you make sense. My efforts are to dissuade these readers, obviously.

One way to do it is to debunk the silly things you say. Such as the made-up figures you bandy about as if you've had a revelation from on high. You know where every weapon is, who is good and who is bad, what percentage of Muslims is good; 99%, and how few believe in violent holy war. I merely say ''millions'' celebrated 9-11 in the streets, immediately afterwards. Not presuming I know every single Muslim's inward disposition towards infidels, as they call us. I don't HAVE to number them all; I know what the ''prophet'' has taught them. They believe in Jihad; and they have no qualms about blowing up airliners, buildings and cities for Allah. No matter how many innocent victims die. ALL Muslims? Perhaps not. Just many thousands of them, even millions. What's more I do not support destroying all of them. I prefer peace.

You hope to settle everything by making extravagant accusations against me here. Such as: [HE] ''condemns a fifth of the world’s population, merely for the convenience of supporting his own personal political and racial bias and mindless sectarian bigotry-- ''

I haven't ''condemned'' any part of any population, for ANY personal satisfaction, or ''convenience'' either. (What cock-eyed ideas.) Neither am I biased against arabic or semitic people. All I do is reject their so-called culture and so-called ''holy book.'' It is not faith based on love, but upon subjecting whole peoples en masse by violent means.

Is la m translates as ''submission,'' not faith. Muhammad won converts by eliminating all resistance and killing whoever didn't convert. His teachings resulted in a world-wide culture which decapitates, mutilates, burns & bombs. NOT LOVES.

Imagine your little daughters kept in abject fear of yourself (Daddy) & their male brethren; and not being allowed to read or write, and even subjected to circumcisions of their genitalia? In some places they'd have ACID splashed in their faces if they went about unveiled-- All because of an immoral ''prophet''-- ? ? ?

If you think it's a ''tiny minority'' living in such darkness, we must be a tiny minority who have believed in Jesus Christ, who brought to the world His Gospel of LOVE. Why do dummies everywhere refuse to see this contrast between God's Holy Son, and the false prophet Muhammad; who will be the ruin of half the human race unless he's challenged by good men? You are one of these dummies.

I say it so whoever ''lurks'' in these threads is called away from your points of view, into the grace of the Holy Spirit; to discernment of the TRUTH, ''Jokes''.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), August 01, 2004.

“DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS

NOSTRA AETATE

PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

1. In our time, when day by day mankind is being drawn closer together, and the ties between different peoples are becoming stronger, the Church examines more closely he relationship to non- Christian religions. In her task of promoting unity and love among men, indeed among nations, she considers above all in this declaration what men have in common and what draws them to fellowship.

One is the community of all peoples, one their origin, for God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth.(1) One also is their final goal, God. His providence, His manifestations of goodness, His saving design extend to all men,(2) until that time when the elect will be united in the Holy City, the city ablaze with the glory of God, where the nations will walk in His light.(3) Men expect from the various religions answers to the unsolved riddles of the human condition, which today, even as in former times, deeply stir the hearts of men: What is man? What is the meaning, the aim of our life? What is moral good, what sin? Whence suffering and what purpose does it serve? Which is the road to true happiness? What are death, judgment and retribution after death? What, finally, is that ultimate inexpressible mystery which encompasses our existence: whence do we come, and where are we going?

2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language...religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.”

Looks like Pope Paul and all the bishops of the world are also “dummies” ! You try to dissuade people from seeing that I make sense, but your specious and insulting non-arguments will not dissuade Catholics of goodwill who respect what the Church has to say.

I didn’t pick “99% of Muslims” out of the air. I quoted it as a conservative estimate because it’s probably more like 99.9%. You claim not be damning ALL Muslims, but in the same breath you come out with bigoted garbage doing just that. “Islam” means submission to God. I’m sorry to hear you’re opposed to that. It comes from the same root as “Salaam”, meaning “peace”. It seems you are the one who is being lured away from the true light of the Holy Spirit.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), August 02, 2004.

Thank you for the long exposition of ONE Church document. We are exhorted to become peacemakers.

You aren't 100% wrong, Joker. Yet, you ARE the dummy here; because the devil is in the details.

''The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth--''

Neither have I rejected anything true. I explained that much of the truth in the Qu ran is derivative of the Old Testament teachings. Muhammad didn't receive it from Allah in person. There are monotheistic heretics as well as Christian.

No one may condemn souls for being in invincible ignorance. However, we MUST reject false doctrines they've had infused into them; and the barbarism resulting from them in such cultures. It's simple to say they still show a ''ray of the truth''. But all in all, that document hasn't restored I S L A M to the Light of Jesus Christ. Muslims live in darkness.

By your faulty logic all the errors of a heretical Christian church are insignificant, because those sects preserve minor ingredients of the original apostolic tenets and teaching. That's impossible. A religion that teaches Christ is NOT the only-begotten Son of God is not holy. It may preserve some Catholic truths, but it has fallen into false doctrine. This is never disputed by ANY Church document.

You have gleaned a declararion of ecumenism from these documents to try white- washing the prophet Muhammad and his doctrines. Why isn't the teaching of every heretic also getting your approval?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), August 02, 2004.

Closer, Mr C, but not close enough. Islam does not get my “approval” nor does any religion other than that of the true Church. But the errors in other religions in no way justify hatred of their adherents and damnation of them all as murderous sons of Satan. Not one, but many, Church documents make this abundantly clear to everyone but you. Sorry for the long quote, but I was afraid if I used a shorter one you would accuse me of taking it out of context.

Your hatred is so extreme you can’t even bring yourself to write the words “Islam”, “Muslim”, “Mohammad” or “Quran” without distorting them. The Muslims whom you know, who are all peaceful and kind, are not the exceptions, they are the typical ones. The idiots who proclaim “holy war” and celebrate terrorism whenever a western TV camera appears are the exceptions. The criminals who attacked the USA spent their free time while waiting to do it, getting drunk and hiring prostitutes. Typical Muslims? I don’t think so. You concentrate on the few who celebrate terrorism, but forget how Yasser Arafat and other Muslim leaders expressed sympathy to the US and lined up to give blood for the 9/11 victims. That’s right they GIVE blood in the rest of the world, they don’t reduce the very fluid of life into a profit-making transaction as the US does. Muslims have borne the brunt both of terrorists and of Bush’s misdirected blunderbuss reaction to it, but still they get not an ounce of sympathy from you. You’re very strong in pointing out others’ deficiencies of belief but you seem to have forgotten Christ’s basic message.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), August 03, 2004.

Jokesie: How many times must I tell you; I do not condemn any Muslim soul. ''But the errors in other religions in no way justify hatred of their adherents and damnation of them ''all'' as murderous sons of Satan. Not one, but many, Church documents make this abundantly clear to everyone but you.''

If you think that ridiculous accusation can stand, You're not reading my posts. I have NEVER justified hatred. Nor damnation.

Much less ever said 'ALL'' Muslims are sons of Satan. They are all followers of a false prophet. Since this is definitely what Muslims ALL are, their faith cannot save them. Only Christ is Our Saviour, and the Church of His apostles. He will save them only if He desires it.

Many if not all, documents of our Church prove this point-- Salvation is from Jesus Christ. Unless you deny it, and I hope you don't.

If you DON'T, I still won't hate you or damn you. But you won't gain salvation through I S L A M,

That's all I've ever said unequivocally. I don't preach their destruction. I do believe war is unavoidable for now, and that war is just. They are asking for it.

The reason I change the shape of these words is Google .com. If I didn't, then anyone who searched for the words would be linked into this thread; an invitation to dispute with many fanatics. I do it to protect this forum from Muslim lurkers. (You are so dense you don't see the danger. So, you spill (sp) spell them outright, defeating the purpose.) I haven't done it for hatred; you are lowering yourself to the point of bearing false witness against another; A SIN.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), August 03, 2004.

You don’t damn all Muslims? What else can you mean by describing Islam as “a world-wide culture which decapitates, mutilates, burns & bombs. NOT LOVES.” ? What are we to make of “If Muslims didn't have ''holy war'' on the collective mind since Muhammad waged it all over his world, you could call it just ''my so- called holy war.'' “The wonderful Muslims you esteem do descend from Father Abraham. It didn't keep them from killing Christians and Jews over some 20 centuries. They do these things as Muhammad instructed them to. “ “how can you support this false religion your esteemed and honorable people were taught? All about female circumcisions and chopping off of hands and heads, and blowing up innocent people on buses and in market places? All for ''Allah''--???” “I don't HAVE to number them all; I know what the ''prophet'' has taught them. They believe in Jihad; and they have no qualms about blowing up airliners, buildings and cities for Allah. No matter how many innocent victims die.” “All I do is reject their so-called culture and so- called ''holy book.'' It is not faith based on love, but upon subjecting whole peoples en masse by violent means.” “Imagine your little daughters kept in abject fear of yourself (Daddy) & their male brethren; and not being allowed to read or write, and even subjected to circumcisions of their genitalia? In some places they'd have ACID splashed in their faces if they went about unveiled-- All because of an immoral ''prophet''-- ? ? ?” “war is unavoidable for now, and that war is just. They are asking for it.” ?

Those not blinded by this obtuse bigotry can see that anyone who sincerely tries to live a moral life and constantly prays to the one true God, cannot possibly remain untouched by God’s grace won through Christ and working through the Holy Spirit. If there are any Muslim lurkers out there, I say PLEASE come join us! We’re talking all about ISLAM, MUSLIMS, MOHAMMAD, THE KORAN, and JIHAD. What’s that again? ISLAM, MUSLIMS, MOHAMMAD, THE KORAN, and JIHAD. Please respond. You couldn’t possibly be any worse “fanatics” than my “logical” interlocutor.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), August 03, 2004.

Don't be a fool.
Everything here you quote from me is the truth. It's true and it justifies the fear all non-muslims feel today, faced with fanatical terrorism.

Are you about to excuse terrorism? Is global terrorism a beneficial result due to the prophet's teachings and wonderful Islamic culture? You don't want people to laugh at you, do you? Your tirade is a joke, Joker:

[Muslim faithful] '' who constantly prays to the one true God, cannot possibly remain untouched by God’s grace won through Christ and working through the Holy Spirit.''

Is that so? Suppose this good Muslim harbors a deep hatred for Jews? For infidels? For Americans?

Is he still in ''touch'' with God's grace? He doesn't believe in Jesus Christ's Godhead.

Supposing he shoots at you, and cuts off the heads of the infidels? I guess that gets him a free pass to 72 virgins in the next life? Oh! Let's praise Allah! POOR SAP ! ! !

You take the cake for idiocy presented as tolerance. YOU cannot possibly remain ''untouched'' by the false doctrines of Muhammad. You act as one of the useful idiots of Muhammad. get out of this forum, Muslim Wart.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), August 04, 2004.

Well I see now that no amount of reasonable persuasion and appeals to the truths of your professed faith will deter you from your irrational and fanatical hatred of Muslims and apparently of all who differ from you. As I pointed out, it is Muslims, not non-Muslims, who have the most to fear from terrorism. By the way you were so consumed by your hatred in this last post that you forgot to insert your "protective" spaces in “Muslim”, "Islamic" and “Mohammad”! We see who is the fool.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), August 04, 2004.

Go ahead. You may delude yourself forever. But you'll gain no credibility in this site, I'm afraid.

All you've managed is making yourself known as an apologist for the likes of Osama bin Lade & Saddam Hussein. And added in the last posts the other killer of innocent children, Yasser Arafat. Nice company you're associating with.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), August 04, 2004.

I’ll just leave it to the readers of this site to decide whether my posts or your posts have the greater credibility, especially when compared with the statements of the Popes and the bishops of the world, one of which I quoted above.

-- Joker (joker@cybernet.com), August 05, 2004.

OK,
What could be more fair than that?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), August 05, 2004.