Hi, I would like to ask a question, humbly and with respect for the answer. Please don't be offended. Thank you.

The Bible says that Jesus came to fulfil the law (of Moses), to rip down the barrier between God and Mankind, as evidenced by the tearing of the temple curtain, and that No-one can come to the Father except through Jesus.

So Why does the Catholic church impose another long list of rules on her people, why are other Churches, such as the Anglicans, who profess the same Christ seen as being inferior and the people unsaved?

Also, another question, why are women not accepted as leaders/priests when co-leadership restores the intended co-operation evidenced with Adam and Eve who were co-workers in the Garden of Eden. In Christ there is no Jew or gentile, male of female, slave or free but all are one.

I am only interested in answers that explain the issues and not getting into a slanging match. I may not agree with the answers but I will listen and respect you for them. Thanks again.

-- A Believer (LovedByJesus@Anglican.Com), June 04, 2004

Answers

Good questions! Now, for some great answers!!!

-- The Bumper! (Bump@bumpitybump.bump), June 04, 2004.

"Why does the Catholic church impose another long list of rules on her people"

The Church doesn't really impose any EXTRA rules. Jesus told us to love God and love our neighbour. All the Church's "rules" are simply concrete ways to help us to do that in various practical situations.

Yes no one can come to the Father except through Jesus. How do we get to Jesus? Through the Church he founded. There is no other direct link. Any other link to Jesus is just in your mind.

"In Christ there is no male or female." Does that mean that if you are a Christian man you can demand to use the women's room and to bear a child? You misunderstand the meaning.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), June 04, 2004.

Hi Believer,

Great questions.

Let me address your second question.

... why are other Churches, such as the Anglicans, who profess the same Christ seen as being inferior and the people unsaved?

I am sorry if you or someone else you know has experienced this kind of attitude from Catholics, but the Catholic Church does not teach that other people are unsaved just because they belong to another Church. In fact, the Catholic Church gets attacked by Evangelicals and Fundamentalists because it does allow that people of other faiths can be saved. God reads the heart and the Church does not presume to know who will go to hell and who will not. However, anyone that is saved is saved through Christ and His Church. This teaching can be a little confusing, but people who are ignorant of Christ's Church as the one true Church founded by Him are not necessarily unsaved. It depends on their heart, which only God knows. I hope someone here will correct me if I've mispoken or misrepresented Catholic teaching.

As far as other Churches being inferior, it depends on what you mean by the term "inferior." Catholics should not look down upon other faiths condescendingly. We believe that Catholicism has the fullness of the truth, while other faiths have truth, but not the whole truth. This means that other faiths are inferior only in the sense that they do not contain the whole truth of God.

IMHO all faiths believe that other faiths are inferior in some way. Otherwise, why follow a particular faith at all? To think otherwise is to say that all faiths contain the whole truth. But this cannot be since various faiths contradict each other in certain aspects and truth, by definition, cannot contradict itself.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 04, 2004.

'Yes no one can come to the Father except through Jesus. How do we get to Jesus? Through the Church he founded. There is no other direct link. Any other link to Jesus is just in your mind.'

How do we get to Jesus? Come to me all who are weary - Jesus gave us Himself a direct link. Also God gave the Holy Spirit to guide us into all Truth. The holy Spirit is for everyone, isn't He? What do you mean its all in my mind? Are you saying that any faith not involved in the Catholic church is merely an illusion? Then why do I have such a close walk with God?

'"In Christ there is no male or female." Does that mean that if you are a Christian man you can demand to use the women's room and to bear a child? You misunderstand the meaning.'

Equality and co-operation doesn't mean we all have to have the same bits does it. Are females less equal just because they are women? In Christ there is no male and female all are one. How can that be misunderstood? Men and women were made of one flesh in the beginning to work together. Women in leadership surely then is simply the restoration of the intended.

-- A Believer (LovedByJesus@Anglican.com), June 04, 2004.

Believer,

Women are in leadership roles in the Catholic Church. It is the role of minister and priest that is reserved to men. This is not because women are inferior in any way. In Catholicism, priests minister to God's people in the sacraments. Christ chose men as Apostles to carry on His work and to minister in a unique way to His Body (i.e., the Church). Christ came as a man. Partially, because priests act in the name and in the person of Christ, they too are men.

Yes, we are all one in Christ, but Christ also called the Apostles to minister to His people and to shepherd them. Not all are called to this particular ministry. Compare Gal 3:27-29 to 1 Cor 12:13-30.

Here is 1 Cor 12:28-30:

"And God set some in the church, firstly, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers, then works of power, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, kinds of languages. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?"

There are no female apostles. We believe this to be part of God's plan. We believe the bishops to be successors of the Apostles, and the priests act as their co-workers. Jesus chose men as the twelve Apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose their successors (the bishops). Bishops are united with priests in the priesthood and make the ministry of the Apostles present in the Church until Christ's Second Coming. We believe we are bound by Christ's choice of men for this ministry.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 04, 2004.

You can't get to Christ by going to church. This is a claim that cannot be accepted by non-catholics. I personally cannot.

Jesus says .. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears me and open the door, I will come in. This is a personal invitation of Christ into our heart. We get to Christ by accepting Him into our heart, not the Church.

Christ died before He can established any church. The first church was established by the disciples in Jerusalem. How can the Catholic Church be found by Christ?

-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), June 04, 2004.

Believer,

Let me add that we also believe the Apostles choice of male successors was guided by the Holy Spirit, not a result of societal norms.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 04, 2004.

Andy you stated in your post the following; I am sorry if you or someone else you know has experienced this kind of attitude from Catholics, but the Catholic Church does not teach that other people are unsaved just because they belong to another Church. In fact, the Catholic Church gets attacked by Evangelicals and Fundamentalists because it does allow that people of other faiths can be saved. God reads the heart and the Church does not presume to know who will go to hell and who will not. However, anyone that is saved is saved through Christ and His Church. This teaching can be a little confusing, but people who are ignorant of Christ's Church as the one true Church founded by Him are not necessarily unsaved. It depends on their heart, which only God knows. I hope someone here will correct me if I've mispoken or misrepresented Catholic teaching.

Andy, I am doing research on differences of different faiths. This is from a Catholic site; The difference between Evangelical Protestant and Roman Catholic views on salvation is monumental. Is salvation by grace through faith alone, or is it by faith plus works?

The Roman Catholic Church's stand on the Protestant doctrine of Justification by grace through faith alone was established at the Council of Trent (1545-1563). Rome pronounced several anathemas (pronouncements of damnation) on Protestant doctrines, including an anathema on all who embrace the doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith alone. That anathema has never been rescinded.

This seems to go against what you posted. Not trying to stir the troube pot here, just curious. Thanks, roger

-- roger (ro@yahoo.com), June 04, 2004.

Hi Roger,

Thanks for asking about that and giving me a chance to clarify what I said. Again, if I'm misrepresenting Catholicism I hope someone will correct me.

I think the specific part of my post that you are questioning is ...but people who are ignorant of Christ's Church as the one true Church founded by Him are not necessarily unsaved. It depends on their heart, which only God knows. By this statement I did not mean to say that we are saved by faith alone. I meant that only God knows why a person does not believe or follow the Catholic Church and its beliefs (which I believe to contain the fullness of truth).

For example, a Baptist who may think the Catholic Church is a pagan religion, but loves the Lord and lives out that love may be saved. But if that same Baptist commits murder, which he knows to be a grave sin and does not repent, he will not be saved. So it is not just our faith, but also how we respond to God's grace that saves us (no matter what faith we profess).

Here's another example. For a Catholic, it is necessary to repent of mortal sins and confess them in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (if possible). I don't think that God would hold it against a Protestant for not confessing a mortal sin to a Catholic priest in the Sacrament of Reconciliation because that person has not come to know and believe that the Catholic Church teaches the truth and that the sacraments are a true means of grace. What that person misses out on though, is the grace he would have received in the sacrament to avoid further sin, if he were Catholic.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 04, 2004.

A Believer said: So Why does the Catholic church impose another long list of rules on her people

Hello. I am a Protestant who wishes to convert to Catholic. I can tell you about the difference from when I was an Evangelical to now, believing in the Catholic faith. Think about the Biblical concept of freedom -- it does not mean anarchy, ie. freedom from restraint to do whatever we want. True freedom is when we know what is right and are able to follow it with our whole lives.

As need arose over the centuries, issues came up that the Bible may not directly address or does not seem clear on. For these, the Catholic Church guides us to the truth of the teachings of Jesus and His apostles. The rules are part of God's love for us, because He wants us to be able to KNOW how to follow Him better, not just have to speculate and wonder. Think about all the different Protestant churches. You can go to one and they will tell you something is always wrong, another will say it's sometimes wrong, and another will say it's fine. How can we know or be certain about what is the Truth? That is why God entrusted the Catholic Church with this responsibility, all the way back when Jesus established her. That is why the Church is called the "pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Let's look at some Scripture about your question.

John 8 (KJV)
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Think about how non-believers view Christianity. They scorn at all the "impossible rules" that we must follow, think that's all there is to our faith, and to them it seems just plain silly. That's because "the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Cor. 1:18 NIV). We know Jesus, and we know it's not foolishness at all, but out of love for God.

I would apply the same principle in this case, by saying that Catholics do not have a "long list of impossible rules" (although some may see it that way). Rather this is true freedom. I have come to a fuller understanding of Jesus' statement when He said "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." This is not freedom from restraint. Rather, it is the freedom we gain through KNOWING the Truth.

When we know exactly what God expects of us, only then are we completely free, because now we are able to choose to follow Him or to sin. In the passage above, Jesus said "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin" (v. 34). We no longer need to be servants of sin because we now know how to be servants of Christ. God still gives us that choice, but now I finally feel the sense of true freedom in knowing what God requires of me. I never felt this as a Protestant, but the Catholic Church contains the fullness of God's Truth that we need to know. Truth is freedom!

God bless you :)

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 04, 2004.

A Believer said: So Why does the Catholic church impose another long list of rules on her people

Hello. I am a Protestant who wishes to convert to Catholic. I can tell you about the difference from when I was an Evangelical to now, believing in the Catholic faith. Think about the Biblical concept of freedom -- it does not mean anarchy, ie. freedom from restraint to do whatever we want. True freedom is when we know what is right and are able to follow it with our whole lives.

As need arose over the centuries, issues came up that the Bible may not directly address or does not seem clear on. For these, the Catholic Church guides us to the truth of the teachings of Jesus and His apostles. The rules are part of God's love for us, because He wants us to be able to KNOW how to follow Him better, not just have to speculate and wonder. Think about all the different Protestant churches. You can go to one and they will tell you something is always wrong, another will say it's sometimes wrong, and another will say it's fine. How can we know or be certain about what is the Truth? That is why God entrusted the Catholic Church with this responsibility, all the way back when Jesus established her. That is why the Church is called the "pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Let's look at some Scripture about your question.

John 8 (KJV)
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Think about how non-believers view Christianity. They scorn at all the "impossible rules" that we must follow, think that's all there is to our faith, and to them it seems just plain silly. That's because "the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Cor. 1:18 NIV). We know Jesus, and we know it's not foolishness at all, but out of love for God.

I would apply the same principle in this case, by saying that Catholics do not have a "long list of impossible rules" (although some may see it that way). Rather this is true freedom. I have come to a fuller understanding of Jesus' statement when He said "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." This is not freedom from restraint. Rather, it is the freedom we gain through KNOWING the Truth.

When we know exactly what God expects of us, only then are we completely free, because now we are able to choose to follow Him or to sin. In the passage above, Jesus said "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin" (v. 34). We no longer need to be servants of sin because we now know how to be servants of Christ. God still gives us that choice, but now I finally feel the sense of true freedom in knowing what God requires of me. I never felt this as a Protestant, but the Catholic Church contains the fullness of God's Truth that we need to know. Truth is freedom!

God bless you :)

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 04, 2004.

Moderator, Please delete my first post in which I messed up the bolds. Thanks.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 04, 2004.

Roger,

The Catholic Church teaches that it is possible for someone to be saved outside the Catholic faith if they are invincibly ignorant of the Truth. Please see this thread where I explain invincible ignorance.

As for the Reformers (or anyone), only God knows their hearts. If someone leaves the Catholic faith willfully knowing that they are leaving the Truth and the person does not return, they will go to hell. The thing is that some do not realize that they are leaving the Truth.

As for the anathemas, this is something the Catholic Church does to discipline people. Imagine if the Reformers were still claiming to be Catholic and teaching the people things contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches (eg. saved by grace alone, through faith alone rather than saved by grace, through faith and works). The people would start getting confused and wonder, "What is really the truth?" That is why the Catholic Church had to anathematize those who were teaching contrary to God's Truth, as preserved in the Catholic Church.

Contrary to what some may say, anathema does not mean "condemn to hell." Rather it is excommunication as a discipline of the person, in the hopes that the person will return to the Catholic faith again after repenting the error of their ways. In order to maintain Truth being taught, the Catholic Church has to anathematize heretics.

God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 04, 2004.

Hi Henri,

You brought up something I think is important.

You can't get to Christ by going to church. This is a claim that cannot be accepted by non-catholics. I personally cannot.

This is also something that Catholics cannot accept. Just by attending Mass and observing the Liturgy does not mean we "get to Christ." It takes faith, hope, and love, but most of all, love.

In order to abide in Christ and He in us, we must "accept Him into our heart" as you said. Accepting Him into our heart can be done as an act of the will. But the Bible also tells us we must live in Christ's love and remain in His love. IMHO, that is where the Church comes in. Through the sacraments and fellowship, we are strengthened in His love and work together to obey Him by living out that love. We cannot do this on our own, we need God's grace to love each other and to walk with Him in our lives. Consider this, the Church has been described as the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. It would be difficult to separate Christ from His Body or the perfect and eternal Bridegroom from His Bride.

You also said, Christ died before He can established any church. The first church was established by the disciples in Jerusalem. How can the Catholic Church be found by Christ?

Actually, Christ planted the seed by gathering the Apostles to carry on His mission. The Apostles received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and this is what Catholics believe is the beginning of the Church.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 04, 2004.

Emily,

Thanks for that clarification and great explanation regarding "invincible ignorance."

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 04, 2004.

thanks andy and emily. i dont agree, but respect what you say and will take it under advicement.

-- roger (ro@yahoo.com), June 04, 2004.

Andy S said: Through the sacraments and fellowship, we are strengthened in His love and work together to obey Him by living out that love.

Andy, it is not the church that strengthens the love. It is Christ who dwells in our heart; only he can do that for you. Jesus says that He is the true wine, any branch attaches to Him will bear much fruits.

Andy said: Consider this, the Church has been described as the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. It would be difficult to separate Christ from His Body or the perfect and eternal Bridegroom from His Bride.

Andy, are you refering the "Church" to the building or the believers?

-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), June 04, 2004.

are you refering the "Church" to the building or the believers?

henri, i can answer this one. the church is the catholics, it is not a building, it is not a basilica, a cathedral, or a church (in a physical sense), it is the people of the Body of Christ.

wherever the mass is held, so the church is gathered.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 04, 2004.

Thanks Paul H. That's exactly what I meant.

Henri, you said, "Andy, it is not the church that strengthens the love. It is Christ who dwells in our heart; only he can do that for you. Jesus says that He is the true wine, any branch attaches to Him will bear much fruits."

You're absolutely right when you say that Christ is the one who strengthens our love. It is not the church by its own power and merit that strengthens our love for Him, but Christ Himself. However, we believe that Christ acts through the Church. That is one reason why we are called the Body of Christ. We are here to carry on His mission and he acts through the Church. Through each of us, and in a very real and special way, through the ordained deacons, priests, and bishops through the sacraments, He continues His saving work.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 04, 2004.

Hi Roger,

Just curious if you disagree that what Emily and I presented is Catholic teaching, or if you think what we said might be Catholic teaching, but disagree with the teaching. I don't intend to debate whether the teaching is true or not, just want to make sure I don't say Catholicism teaches something that it doesn't.

Thanks, Andy S

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 04, 2004.

THE PURPOSE OF JESUS WAS TO BREAK DOWN THE BARRIER WHICH HAD FORMED BETWEEN GOD AND MAN. THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AND THAT, WHICH HE HATH DONE, BY WISDOM FOLLOW HIM, THUS ARE SAVED. THERE IS NO FURTHER RULES THAT APPLY, AND THE CONFUSION THAT IS ABOUND AMONGST THE RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD IS THE DEVICE OF THE FALLEN ONE (SATAN). THE TRUTH IS ABSOLUTE. SOVEREIGN. THEREFORE THE ONLY WAY THAT ANY WHO ATTEMPTS IT COULD DIVERT ATTENTION FROM THE ONE TRUTH IS TO INTRODUCE A LEGION OF GENERIC PRODUCTS AND WITH THAT THERE IS CONFUSION AMONGST THE MASSES. CONSEQUENTLY THERE ARE THOSE WHO CANNOT RECOGNIZE THE TRUTH FOR THEY ARE HAVE BEEN NURTURED IN THE CONFUSION.

-- Larry Winston (ninthmaverick@sbcglobal.net), June 13, 2004.

Andy S You said

'There are no female apostles.... We believe the Bishops to be successors of the Apostles, and the priests act as their co-workers'

Thank you for supporting women in the priesthood! I can see how your argument would prevent women becoming Bishops but women in the new testament were co-workers with the apostles. One third of Pauls' greetings were to women co-workers. It would follow then that women were indeed called to be priests - co-workers with the Bishops!

Andy/Roger and others

As an Anglican second and a Christian first I do not 'embrace the doctrine of salvation through grace alone through faith alone'. Faith without works is dead as it clearly states in the bible. I believe salvation is begun with Grace from God it is continued when we have faith and is exercised by works. If I believe that God has redeemed me but pass by someone who needs help then I have not fully recieved the truth in my heart.

I like to think of it as a divine gift, there it is all beautifully gift wrapped offered to us by God simply because He loves us. We now have some choices: we can reject the gift. We can accept the gift and stick it in a cupboard and forget about it. Or we can accept the gift and use it as intended - everyday. Even Satan believes in God, belief on its own is not enough. Faith - of the genuine variety - is always accompanied by works. How could it not be - faith without works is a useless gift left to rot in a cupboard.

Emmily,

at no time did i use the word 'impossible' when referring to the list of rules imposed on people.

What I am really trying to get at here is how the 10 commandments became the massive list of rules that are often posted on this site. There seems to be so many. I don't want to be controversial but an example of my failure to understand Catholic rules is around the issue of contraception. I don't want to get into a big discussion and debate - I know the Catholic church teaches that contraception is wrong - I just don't understand how subjecting a woman to pregnancy after pregnancy so that her health suffers is right.

There are other examples but all could be considered controversial and that really isn't my intention.

Henri,

Thank you for your words about it being Christ dwelling in our hearts that strenghens love.

Jesus sent The Holy Spirit to lead us into Truth. The Church should be about us getting together, to discuss what we believe and to learn from those who are older in the faith. It shouldn't be about adding rule upon rule for the people to struggle under. Truth is Freedom but the rules didn't save the Jews - Christ did.

Christ ripped the curtain in two leaving a direct path, through Him, to God. To suggest that a person cannot be saved without Catholic Church involvement is plainly wrong. Catholic means Universal, Church means the people whom God has saved. In that sense all who share the bundle of God's grace, our faith and our works are members of the catholic church.

God offered His Grace to me, I accepted it, proclaimed Him as my Lord and Saviour, enthroned Him in my heart, recieved the Holy Spirit and work to His Glory. I am NOT a Roman Catholic. I am a Christian. I attend church regularly my faith is expressed through words and actions. What part of this makes me less close to the Truth? What parts of this make me less than acceptable in a Catholic Church? What parts of this make me wrong?

-- A Believer (LovedByJesus@Anglican.Com), June 15, 2004.

Emily - I apologise for the double M that crept into your name - sloppy typing - Sorry.

-- A Believer (LovedByJesus@Anglican.Com), June 15, 2004.

"women in the new testament were co-workers with the apostles. One third of Pauls' greetings were to women co-workers."

A: That is completely irrelevant to the matter of ordained ministry. Many women today are co-workers with the bishops, just as they were then, just as many unordained men are. There were no ordained women in apostolic times, there are none today, and there will never be any because the Church does not have the authority to ordain them, because Christ, who DID have the authority, specifically chose not to do so, thereby expressing the will of God on the matter.

"As an Anglican second and a Christian first I do not 'embrace the doctrine of salvation through grace alone through faith alone'."

A: Anglicans and Lutherans have not drifted as far from the fullness of Catholic truth as most other denominations, and it is certainly a good thing that your church has retained this postion of fundamental Christian doctrine. However, there are other doctrines essential to fullness of faith which your church has rejected, which is why your church is Protestant.

"I know the Catholic church teaches that contraception is wrong - I just don't understand how subjecting a woman to pregnancy after pregnancy so that her health suffers is right."

A: It would not be right, if it were a reality. But it isn't. How many Catholic women do you know who have "pregnancy after pregnancy"? The Church doesn't demand or expect that a family will have more children than they can reasonably care for. Catholic couples can plan their families, but are encouraged to use natural, godly means of doing so, rather than unnatural means which are not only intrinsically immoral, but which also pose serious health risks to the woman.

"To suggest that a person cannot be saved without Catholic Church involvement is plainly wrong. Catholic means Universal, Church means the people whom God has saved. In that sense all who share the bundle of God's grace, our faith and our works are members of the catholic church."

Since it is only through the truth of Jesus Christ that we can be saved, and it is only through the Catholic Church that the truth of Jesus Christ has come into the world, therefore it follows that salvation comes only through the Catholic Church. This doesn't mean that only Catholics are saved. It means that any saving grace and any saving truth that exists in any church was received by that church from the Catholic Church - which therefore remains the sole channel of salvation given to the world by Jesus Christ.

"What part of this makes me less close to the Truth? What parts of this make me less than acceptable in a Catholic Church? What parts of this make me wrong?"

A: Do you believe that a 7th Day Adventist, or a Calvinist, or a member of "Pastor Joe's Storefront Church" is any less close to the truth than you are? If you don't, then apparently truth doesn't matter to you at all, since many of the beliefs of such Protestant churches are directly opposed to your own Protestant beliefs. On the other hand, if you do recognize that the beliefs of these churches have drifted far away from the beliefs you accept as true, then you should recognize why the one Church founded by Jesus Christ, which taught the fullness of Christian truth for 1,500 years before your tradition was founded, necessarily views your church the same way.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 15, 2004.

Paul wrote

"Since it is only through the truth of Jesus Christ that we can be saved, and it is only through the Catholic Church that the truth of Jesus Christ has come into the world, therefore it follows that salvation comes only through the Catholic Church. This doesn't mean that only Catholics are saved. It means that any saving grace and any saving truth that exists in any church was received by that church from the Catholic Church - which therefore remains the sole channel of salvation given to the world by Jesus Christ."

What do you mean -it is only through the Catholic Church that the truth of Jesus has entered the world? It is through the wonderful Grace of God that Truth in the Person Of Christ came int the world - Jesus is the Truth, the Life and the Way!!!! Not Catholicism, or Anglicanism or any other ism It is Christ first, last and everything in between! The Church is the Body of Believers who believe in and trust in Him.

-- A Believer (LovedByJesus@Anglican.Com), June 16, 2004.

Yes, Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. You know this because it was revealed to the Catholic Church in the first century, and the Church faithfully preserved and preached this truth throughout the centuries. If it were not for the Catholic Church, Jesus would still be the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but you would never have heard of Him or His gift of salvation, for ...

... "Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will besaved. Yet how will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent?" (Romans 10:13-15)

The next obvious question in this series is ... who will send them? The obvious and only answer is ... the Church. That's why the Church is called "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim 3:15). Jesus is the Truth, but the Church is the foundation of the truth - that which provides form and support and validity to the truth about Jesus Christ, and without which the truth just crumbles into the doctrinal chaos of denominationalism.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 16, 2004.

Yes But without a protestant daring to translate the Bible into English i still wouldn't know about it since I don't speak/read Greek/Hebrew/Latin.

If Catholicism had its way all services would still be conducted in Latin as The Holy Scriptures are allegedly way above the commoners ability to comprehend!

You claim the apostles and the writers of The Bible as exclusively Catholic but they never described themselves as such. The Gospel is not just for those who accept the Catholic Church.

From other threads I have realised that Catholics hold their church to be free from error and the Perfect Truth. I have a hard time reconciling that with evidence from history. Gallileo was locked up for daring to suggest that the earth revolved around the sun as the Catholic Church taught that the earth was the centre of the universe, to pick (I hope) an non controversial example.

I don't know, maybe its just me, but I do struggle with the idea that any organisation made up of imperfect humans can remain perfect, I could accept the argument of nearly perfect or even closer to perfect than non Catholic. i know God has the power to preserve His Truth but what if the Reformation was Him doing Just that? Just a thought and i know one that Catholics will argue against. As I said at the beginning of this thread while I may not come around to your way of thinking I will respect you all and your views. I like debates and discussions so I can learn not slagging matches that make us all look bad.

Thank you all for your responses thus far - I look forward to more.

May Christ dwell in our hearts and minds and may The Holy Spirit guide us in to all Truth. Amen.

-- A Believer (LovedByJesus@Anglican.Com), June 17, 2004.

"Yes But without a protestant daring to translate the Bible into English i still wouldn't know about it since I don't speak/read Greek/Hebrew/Latin."

A: This is a common misconception among Protestants. With all due respect, most Protestants know very little about the history of Christianity, and nothing at all about the origin and history of the Bible, which is remarkable considering that they claim to base their entire faith system on this one Catholic-compiled book. Anyway, the historical fact is that the Catholic Church had translated its book into 17 vernacular languages before Martin Luther was BORN - therefore long before any such thing as a Protestant existed. Such vernacular translations were not used very much, for two reasons - first, the printing press had not been invented, so the only existing copies of the Bible in ANY language were the huge, laboriously hand-lettered copies made by Catholic monks in monasteries; and secondly, 95% of the population were illiterate, and therefore could not have read vernacular Bibles or any other Bibles, even if they had been available. That, incidentally, is why the Church maintained the scriptures first in their original Greek and later in Latin - because those were the universal languages of their respective times. In medieval times, only the educated could read at all, and every educated person could read Latin. Therefore translating the Bible into Latin made it instantly accessible to every person in the world who could read, regardless of their ethnic background.

"If Catholicism had its way all services would still be conducted in Latin as The Holy Scriptures are allegedly way above the commoners ability to comprehend! "

A: On the contrary, as Latin ceased to be a universal language, and common people became more generally literate, the Church not only made the Bible available in every language on earth, but also changed its worship from Latin into the vernacular, for exactly the same reason - to make it more accessible to all people. The Bible is not impossible for common folks to comprehend, once it is authoritatively explained. But it is impossible for common folks to accurately interpret, as the doctrinal chaos of Protestantism clearly demonstrates.

"You claim the apostles and the writers of The Bible as exclusively Catholic but they never described themselves as such. The Gospel is not just for those who accept the Catholic Church."

A: The name "Holy Catholic Church" came into common usage around the end of the first century, as demonstarted in the writings of early second century bishops of the Church, like Ignatius of Antioch, who was ordained by the Apostle John. These second-generation Catholic bishops were clearly members of the same Church as the first generation bishops, the Apostles. Therefore it doesn't matter whether the Apostles called themselves "Catholic" or not. What matters is that the Catholic Church is the same Church Christ founded on the Apostles. Since this was the ONLY Christian Church that existed for the next 1000+ years, there is no question regarding its identity or its divine origin.

"From other threads I have realised that Catholics hold their church to be free from error and the Perfect Truth. I have a hard time reconciling that with evidence from history. Gallileo was locked up for daring to suggest that the earth revolved around the sun as the Catholic Church taught that the earth was the centre of the universe"

A: Again, you are not well informed either about Church matters or about history. It is not correct to say that the Church is free from error. The Church - or more accurately, various leaders of the Church - have made many errors over the centuries. The members of the Church, including its leadership, are all human, all imperfect, and all sinners. Therefore it is no surprise that some serious sin, some terrible scandals, have resulted from the actions of some Church leaders. The Church's doctrine however, IS perfect in spite of the weaknesses and failings of its members, because it is of divine origin. To doubt the truthfulness of the Church's teaching is to reject the promise of Christ Himself to the leaders of His Church - "when the Holy Spirit comes, He will guide you to ALL TRUTH" ; and, "whatsoever you bind upon earth is bound in heaven". If you are looking for truth, the first thing to seek is unity of teaching, for pure truth cannot exist in an atmosphere of doctrinal conflict and contradiction like Protestantism. The only place such unity of doctrinal truth can be found outside of heaven itself is in the Church Jesus Christ founded for all men, the Holy Catholic Church.

As for Gallileo, again you are repeating the popular myth, which is not historically sound. First, the belief that the earth was the center of the universe was not primarily a Church teaching. It was simply the commonly accepted belief of the time, shared by all educated people of the time, including the scientific establishment. Therefore, when Gallileo suggested a radically different idea, he met with a lot of resistance from the educated population, including Church leaders and his fellow scientists. However, his scientific hypothesis itself was not what got him into trouble with the Church. Rather, it was a tract he published in which he stated that his findings suggested that the universe could have come into existence without "the hand of God" being involved. THAT was what brought the Church's censure. And THAT was what resulted in Galileo being "locked up" - if house arrest in the luxurious Mediterranean villa of his best friend constitutes being "locked up".

"I don't know, maybe its just me, but I do struggle with the idea that any organisation made up of imperfect humans can remain perfect"

A: A valid concern - and as I said above, the members of this "organization" are far from perfect, and many mistakes have been made. But at the same time, the teaching of the Church MUST remain perfect, or no-one on earth would have any way of knowing the truth with certainty, there would be no Church on earth that is not disintegrating daily into more and more conflicting denominations, and the words of Christ, "the truth shall set you free", would become essentially meaningless. You cannot have objective certainty of truth without a reliable objective criterion as the standard for your beliefs. Protestants try to make a Catholic book their criterion. But the most casual observer, if honest, has to admit it just doesn't work. The Bible tells us that the CHURCH is the foundation of truth. Protestants, in one breath, say "I reject what the Bible says on this matter", and "the Bible is my foundation of truth". It's little wonder that confusion reigns in a system which begins its theology by rejecting its own foundation.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 17, 2004.

Gallileo was locked up for daring to suggest that the earth revolved around the sun as the Catholic Church taught that the earth was the centre of the universe

just to let everyone know, before this idea of the church being wrong about this goes on, modern science proves that both sides of the debate were correct. we (today) cannot distinctly declare that the earth rotates around the sun, and in fact, galileo's theory is nearly as ludicrous as the idea of the earth being the center of the universe.

the heliocentric theory, modified from the concept that galileo proposed, is what we teach in school today, but from a relativistic standpoint (re: einstein) the theory that the earth could be the center of the universe is equaly valid and provable. when viewed in this light, galileo's punishment was not that he discovered a truth, because he only was half right, but that he tried to use that truth to denounce the church, when his error in scientific understanding would have led to much more loss of faith.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), June 18, 2004.

Paul M.

Thank you - a well reasoned argument that leads to a deeper understanding and more thought.

Sadly it was spoiled by the ascertion that Christ came for all men. I am not a man smae as over half the population. Had you capitalised it as Man I could just about accept it.

It does show the fundamental implication of the Catholic Church that women are still less than men.

-- A Believer (LovedByJesus@Anglican.Com), June 18, 2004.

A Believer said: It does show the fundamental implication of the Catholic Church that women are still less than men.

What do you mean "still"? Women are not and were never less than men. Women and men have different roles. Catholics have the Virgin Mary, who is the highest Saint and the Mother of us all. Protestants refuse to acknowledge her role, making them the more sexist ones if anything, by denying the role that God had for this woman as a model to other women.

The Anglican church insults women by saying that they can take on the role that God designed for males - the priesthood. By saying this, it implies that women must become like men in order to have value or attain equality.

As for the "man" reference, I can't speak for Paul M., but this is a term in the English language that refers to humans. The male gender is used when speaking in gender-neutral terms.

For a Catholic perspective on the role of women, I highly recommend this Catholic Answers broadcast: June 16, 2004. "The Genius of Woman." In it, they talk about the creation of Eve, Mary's role, and the role of all women. It provides a beautfiul perspective and is worth a listen for anyone who believes in the female priesthood, because that idea is shown to be lacking.

God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 18, 2004.

Excellent posts Paul and paul, except that you are a bit too tough on old Galileo. He DID arrogantly claim that his interpretation of scripture passages to support his heliocentric theory was the only correct interpretation and that the the Church's interpretation of those passages was wrong. But he did not "denounce the Church" and he certainly did not believe that the universe could have come into existence without God. He lived and died a believing and practising Catholic. The strength of his faith is shown by the fact that he accepted the Inquisition's ruling although he believed it was wrong.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), June 18, 2004.

Believer ...

Really? Then God Himself must think that women are less than men, since His Word repeatedly refers to the human race as "all men" - and never capitalizes it ...

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

2 Corinthians 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men

Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

... and many other verses. If the Holy Spirit was not concerned about capitalization, I don't see why I should be. Since we know that God does NOT regard women as inferior to men in any way, we must conclude that this God-given terminology does not indicate any such thing.

Also, from the American Heritage Dictionary ...

"man" (no capitalization) ... definition 2: a human being regardless of sex or age; a person ... definition 4: the human race; mankind.

Incidentally, in the Catholic Church lay women are allowed to do EVERYTHING lay men are allowed to do - teach, administrate, counsel, distribute the Eucharist, lead prayer, etc. - absolutely no discrimination. In many Protestant churches women are not allowed to teach or to hold any position of authority. In some Protestant churches women are allowed to teach children or other women, but are not allowed to teach men. Talk about an "implication that women are less than men"!

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 18, 2004.

Men and women were created equal. Why then does it follow that for a woman to be a priest it is forcing her to be like a man? Women as priests is restoring the natural equality as co-workers that He instituted at creation in the Garden of Eden. I repeat the earlier assertion - in Christ there is no male of female. If He does not differentiate on the basis of gender why does the church.

Paul - some protestant churches may prevent women in certain roles - not all protestants are the same - please don't just lump me in with any non Catholic church that suits your purposes. Thanks.

-- A Believer (LovedByJesus@Anglican.Com), June 21, 2004.

I believe I indicated that when I said "In MANY Protestant churches women are not allowed to teach or to hold any position of authority. In SOME Protestant churches women are allowed to teach children or other women, but are not allowed to teach men."

You say "not all Protestants are the same". Now there is an understatement! The fact is, NO two Protestant churches are the same. Makes you wonder how Protestants interpret "Father, that they all may be ONE, even as you and I are ONE".

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 21, 2004.

A Believer said: Women as priests is restoring the natural equality as co-workers that He instituted at creation in the Garden of Eden.

Yes, men and women are equal in value in God's sight. However, they are not equal in roles. In the Garden of Eden incident to which you refer, God gave different punishments for sin to Adam and Eve. Eve's pain would be in childbearing, while Adam's would be in tilling the earth. If men and women are supposed to have the same roles, then why did God create us physically and emotionally different?

A Believer said: in Christ there is no male of female.

Let's look at the verses to which you refer when you say "there is no male or female." Galatians 3 (KJV)

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This passage refers to baptism, which replaced the Old Testament circumcision. Whereas the OT initiation into the covenant family was only for male Jews (circumcision), in the New Testament, it is for everyone (baptism).

While this passage talks about who is welcome in the covenant family (everyone), it says nothing of leadership roles or who is allowed to be priests. Please provide a passage to support your position that makes sense in context, allowing for the female priesthood.

A Believer said: If He [Christ] does not differentiate on the basis of gender why does the church?

The problem with your statement is that Christ does differentiate on the basis of gender. While Christ allowed for both men and women to partake in His ministries, He chose only men for the first priests -- the apostles. There were plenty of women around from whom He could've chosen apostles, but instead He chose only men. This was to highlight the role of men in the Church.

God also highlighted the role of women by choosing to have Christ come into the world through the Virgin Mary. God chose her for this special task, elevating the role of women in society. Christ certainly did differentiate on the basis of gender by restoring the original roles that He intended for men and women to hold in the Church.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 21, 2004.