I want to thank those who post here for their time and efforts. I am a Protestant, who after living in the New Orleans area for 4 years, began to research the Catholic faith with the possibility of converting. My efforts yield no reason to convert, but reaffirmed my belive and faith in Christ. I am a Christian period. I no longer place any identifier to my faith (IE Catholic, Baptist, Methodist ETC). Thanks

-- Roger (ro@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004

Answers

Your welcome. Feel free to ask any questions you might have.

In Christ, Bill

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45-nospam@Hotmail.com), June 07, 2004.

Roger,

the universal church comprises of all believers from all denominations. There is no need to convert again if you're already a child of God, unless the other religion has another different kind of God.

-- Henri (kxhenri@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.

Dear Roger,

If you no longer identify your church, how do you identify your beliefs, since the beliefs of each church are different, and often contradictory? One who doesn't align himself with a specific denomination is simply a new denomination, one more fracture in the already severely fragmented Body of Christ.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 07, 2004.

Thanks Paul, I identify with the teachings and life of Jesus Christ. My belief is in Him. I am a Christian. Why must I belong to a certain denomination to have faith and beliefs?

-- Roger (ro@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.

Hi Roger,

Welcome and thanks for posting. I appreciate and respect your views.

-- Andy S ("aszmere@earthlink.net"), June 07, 2004.

Thanks Andy, I enjoy reading the post of others. I like researching what is discussed here. I hope others here don't think I am trying to start my own following. I hope to followship with Christians no matter what denomination they align with.

-- Roger (ro@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.

Well obviously one does not have to belong to a church to have beliefs. Everyone has beliefs. The question is, how does a person know with objective certainty that what they believe is actually true? Jesus said "the truth" would set us free. He didn't say that simply "having beliefs" would set us free. Just "feeling" that what we believe is true is clearly not enough, since all members of all denominations feel very sincerely that their beliefs are true; yet objectively, two conflicting beliefs cannot both be true, which necessarily means that many of the beliefs they hold so dear are actually false. Obviously personal interpretation of the Bible is not enough, since that is the source of all the conflicting and untrue beliefs mentioned above. The only way anyone can know the truth with objective certainty, and have a faith based on geunine truth, not just feelings, is to have a reliable source of objective truth. In fact, just a reliable source won't do. Only an infallible source of truth can guarantee that what we believe is really true. That's why Jesus told the Church He founded, and no other, "the Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth", and "whatsoever you bind upon earth is bound in heaven", and "he who hears you hears Me". That's why the written Word of God tells us that the Church is "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim 3:15). That's why denominations, including denominations of one, are not within God's plan for His Church.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 07, 2004.

Thanks Paul, I saved this from my studies. I belive the Word is the truth.

Paul wrote, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteous- ness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly equipped for every good work. I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! ... For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned to fables." 2 Tim. 3:15,16; 4:1,3,4. Here we are told that the Scripture defines doctrine, not the Church. The Scripture is to "correct" us when we stray. Through the Scriptures we can be "perfect." In the light of Christ's return, we are to "Preach the word!" not the doctrines of men. Paul said many will turn from the truth to fables. How can we tell what is "truth" and what is a "fable"? By the Word. Jesus wants to "cleanse [the church] with the washing of water by the word." Eph. 5:26.

-- Roger (ro@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteous- ness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

A: Well of course scripture is "profitable". But that's a long way from saying that it is the sole source, or even the primary source of doctrinal truth.

"... For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned to fables."

A: This is a description of denominationalism, in the words of God Himself. Each denomination finding preachers who will preach what they want to hear, and searching the scriptures for something they can interpret to support their personal beliefs.

"Here we are told that the Scripture defines doctrine, not the Church."

A: No, we are not told any such thing. Christian doctrine existed before a word of the New Testament was written. That's how it got into the New Testament in the first place. The leaders of the Church are commanded to "preach the word", so that the members of the Church will have a solid source of truth. There is no certainty of truth apart from the pillar and foundation of truth. Notice, the Word of God does not define the Church as the "source" of truth, but as the "pillar and foundation". What do pillars and foundations do? They support, strengthen, give form to something; and if you remove the pillar and foundation, the structure collapses into pieces - in this case, pieces called denominations. If the Scripture could define true doctrine apart from the true Church, all churches which use the scripture would have the same doctrine. Obviously they do not. Therefore Scripture cannot define anything on its own. Which is why the Church, not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

"How can we tell what is "truth" and what is a "fable"? By the Word."

A: Yes - and the Word was given by Christ to the Church, not in the form of a book, but in the form of oral Tradition. Leaders of the Church wrote down some of this Divine teaching, and the Church later - much later - gathered some of it into a book. The Church alone has the authority to interpret its own teaching, given to it directly by God - both the part it wrote down and the part it didn't. Trying to live by the Word apart from the Church is an exercise in futility, bound to result in ongoing division and fragmentation, and doctrinal chaos - which is exactly what we see in Protestantism today. Jesus' plan for His Church was "that they all may be ONE, even as you Father and I are ONE". Can you imagine Jesus and the Father having conflicting beliefs?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), June 07, 2004.

Roger,
Jesus Christ didn't write a single word. Yet He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Nothing is inconsistent about loving the Bible and staying with the Church of the holy apostles as Christ commanded us.

When men embrace a generic faith in Jesus, as you do, the command of Jesus Christ is disobeyed. If we can convince you Jesus founded only one Church, and you're indifferent to that Church; you'll realize you're disobeying Him. Now; had Jesus said to His followers, ''By and by, a book shall be given you; a Bible. Take what you please from it, and that shall make of you my disciple,'' you would be on firm ground. You'd be faithful.

But He said nothing about learning from the Bible. Neither did the apostles. They made us disciples by preaching the Gospel and baptizing us.

Here is Christ's command to the Catholic Church, namely His apostles--in the very beginning:

''Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit--

''. . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you,'' (Matt 28, :19-:20)

And that is the commission of only ONE Church, Roger. We are disciples and we have our Master. He speaks to us through the Church He built on Peter and the apostles. The Bible comes in later, and it's part and parcel of that same Church. It isn't a free lance teacher. We have to obey all Christ's commands, and all our Bible study isn't sufficient.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 07, 2004.

Thanks Paul. Here is my humble 2 cents worth.

A: Well of course scripture is "profitable". But that's a long way from saying that it is the sole source, or even the primary source of doctrinal truth.

Here is the complete verse; All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: So it is the source. This is the Word of our Lord.

"... For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned to fables." A: This is a description of denominationalism, in the words of God Himself. Each denomination finding preachers who will preach what they want to hear, and searching the scriptures for something they can interpret to support their personal beliefs.

I agree, so it is best to stick with the Word.

"Here we are told that the Scripture defines doctrine, not the Church." A: No, we are not told any such thing. Christian doctrine existed before a word of the New Testament was written. That's how it got into the New Testament in the first place. The leaders of the Church are commanded to "preach the word", so that the members of the Church will have a solid source of truth. There is no certainty of truth apart from the pillar and foundation of truth. Notice, the Word of God does not define the Church as the "source" of truth, but as the "pillar and foundation". What do pillars and foundations do? They support, strengthen, give form to something; and if you remove the pillar and foundation, the structure collapses into pieces - in this case, pieces called denominations. If the Scripture could define true doctrine apart from the true Church, all churches which use the scripture would have the same doctrine. Obviously they do not. Therefore Scripture cannot define anything on its own. Which is why the Church, not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Of course there was doctrine before there was the New Testament. The Word is Christ’s teaching which is what Paul is referring to. With that I believe that the Scripture does define Doctrine.

"How can we tell what is "truth" and what is a "fable"? By the Word." A: Yes - and the Word was given by Christ to the Church, not in the form of a book, but in the form of oral Tradition. Leaders of the Church wrote down some of this Divine teaching, and the Church later - much later - gathered some of it into a book. The Church alone has the authority to interpret its own teaching, given to it directly by God - both the part it wrote down and the part it didn't. Trying to live by the Word apart from the Church is an exercise in futility, bound to result in ongoing division and fragmentation, and doctrinal chaos - which is exactly what we see in Protestantism today. Jesus' plan for His Church was "that they all may be ONE, even as you Father and I are ONE". Can you imagine Jesus and the Father having conflicting beliefs?

Jesus spread the Word to all that would listen and after Him the Apostles continued to spread the word, which became the New Testament. It doesn’t change the fact that His Word is the Word. You seem hung up on the fact that His message must be written. From reading and watching the news I would say that the Catholic Church is also fragmented. There is a growing liberal party of Catholics going against what the Word and the Pope says.

-- Roger (ro@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.

Thanks Eugene. Here is my 2 cents worth. Jesus preached The Word. I agree with Matt. 28 19-20, the Disciples went out and preached what he commanded...which is His Word. Why would he tell the disciples to learn from the Bible when there wasn't one? My faith in Jesus Christ is not generic, but is real and growing stronger. Jesus speaks to me everyday, no matter where I am.

Roger, Jesus Christ didn't write a single word. Yet He is the Way, the Truth and the Life Nothing is inconsistent about loving the Bible and staying with the Church of the holy apostles as Christ commanded us. When men embrace a generic faith in Jesus, as you do, the command of Jesus Christ is disobeyed. If we can convince you Jesus founded only one Church, and you're indifferent to that Church; you'll realize you're disobeying Him. Now; had Jesus said to His followers, ''By and by, a book shall be given you; a Bible. Take what you please from it, and that shall make of you my disciple,'' you would be on firm ground. You'd be faithful. But He said nothing about learning from the Bible. Neither did the apostles. They made us disciples by preaching the Gospel and baptizing us. Here is Christ's command to the Catholic Church, namely His apostles-- in the very beginning: ''Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit-- ''. . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you,'' (Matt 28, :19-:20) And that is the commission of only ONE Church, Roger. We are disciples and we have our Master. He speaks to us through the Church He built on Peter and the apostles. The Bible comes in later, and it's part and parcel of that same Church. It isn't a free lance teacher. We have to obey all Christ's commands, and all our Bible study isn't sufficient.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 07, 2004.

-- Roger (ro@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.

Roger:
''Here is my 2 cents worth. Jesus preached The Word. I agree with Matt. 28 19-20, the Disciples went out and preached what he commanded...which is His Word.--''

There's a line here you've decided must not be crossed. it has to do with the last words of that passage:

Christ said the disciples would preach Him to the nations. That's the holy Gospel, Good news.

He added, however, ''Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.'' Here is a reference, not to the Word as such, but the way He was to be worshipped in the Mystical Body which is His Holy Church. Observances of the sacred mysteries later spoken of by Paul in his epsistles. The Catholic faith preserves in us what Christ here commanded. The Holy Bible can instruct, and we do benefit in the keeping of the Word of God. But grace comes from the Church out of her Lord and Saviour; that grace He merited by death on the cross. We come to that grace in communion with Him and one another as a CHURCH, not as a school of the Word.

The Word is written that mankind may know the Church which is his Body. Know it and be in one Communion. This is why Jesus is called Emmanuel, God with Us.

There is no way to Communion as a Bible scholar, however commendable that pursuit is. Our call is to form His Church in the world, and last there until He comes in glory. If you dispute the words above, ''no Communion as Bible scholar,'' let me clear up any ambiguity. Communion is Oneness; the Communion of Saints. It is meant to be a unique and universal organism; a gathering of his people in ONE flock. The title Catholic means universal-- all-encompassing for the faith.

Bible study alone doesn't unite all men. We see the sad fact every day, in diverse and opposed denominations, each and every one proclaiming the ''Good News'' --the Word; only by a private, unsupported interpretation of that Word. One sect's interpretation clashing with another sect's. That is sure proof the bible is not your communion at all. It is an on- going disagreement. Except where the Bible is first seen on earth: the Church of the apostles. The Church of their Creed, and their Tradition and the Church of Christ's saints. This is the positive and only Spirit- endowed onterpretation sent to believers by God. Catholic interpretation of the word, not free-lance. All others have fractional parts of the truth. Not the truth unalloyed and error-free, This is how Christ taught it and promised it to us. By the Church alone, not by human wisdom. Only by learning the Word in his own Church are we in full communion with God and one another.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), June 07, 2004.

Roger- Stay open to the truth, wherever you find it. I for one, really enjoy learning from non-Catholics, converts, and reverts who have found good in Catholicism.

-- mark a (stillasking@middle.age), June 07, 2004.

Just wanted to comment how interesting these discussions are.

I am a newly catholic girl, being baptised and confirmed over the Easter period in South Africa. I have never experienced so much as I have in the last year of my conversion. I must admit, I have a lot of stupid questions. In time I will ask. For now I will learn from this forum :) I will say that I find it extremely hard amongst the 20 to 30 year olds as they are at the bottom of the stats on going to the catholic church in South Africa, probably the whole world.

Anyways,

Thanks :)

God Bless

D

-- Dawn Peters (d_peters@mweb.co.za), June 07, 2004.

Hi Dawn,

Welcome to our forum, and more importantly welcome to the Catholic Church!! I am alway so excited to hear about people converting, since I myself am still Protestant (officially), but I plan to become Catholic. God has led me in this direction in my pursuit of the Truth.

Dawn said: I must admit, I have a lot of stupid questions. In time I will ask. For now I will learn from this forum :)

There are no stupid questions. We all have to learn at some time or another. I have learned so much from being at this forum, among numerous other things. A Baptist woman recently asked a number of questions about the Catholic faith, and I posted some answers to her on this thread (Fundamental Questions about Catholicism), in case you are interested. Perhaps your questions are similar to hers.

Also, I'm not sure if you know how our site works, so I'm going to say this at the risk of telling you what you might already know. If you go to our homepage, you will see a list of all of the most recently started threads. If you scroll down to the bottom of that page, you will find numerous topics by which you can search what has been discussed here. If you go back up to the top of the homepage, there is a link called "New Answers," and that site contains all the threads with the most recent comments, even if the thread was started a long time ago.

One final note about this. To learn more about the Catholic faith, there are 3 sites that I have found to be extremely helpful:

Catholic Outlook

JimmyAkin.com

Catholic Answers

Dawn said: I will say that I find it extremely hard amongst the 20 to 30 year olds as they are at the bottom of the stats on going to the catholic church in South Africa, probably the whole world.

Interesting stats. I wonder if this relates to all of the Christian groups as well, not just Catholics? Well I am 22, and I am planning to enter the Catholic Church, so we both beat the odds I guess?! lol. Please feel free to post questions here. Also, you can email me if you'd like to chat.

I too find it difficult among many people who are our age, and I think it is because of an apathy toward religion in general, not just Catholicism. Either that or they want to be entertained in "church" rather than worship God. Also there is the factor that the younger generations tend to be interested in whatever is new and flashy, and the Catholic Church (2,000 years old and liturgical worship) doesn't exactly fit into those categories.

As for me, I bless God that He had the grace to bring me into His Truth as found in the Catholic faith. I am eternally grateful! What faith (if any) did you come from before your conversion to Catholic? What led you to become Catholic?

God bless you!

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), June 07, 2004.