Hope this is a good place to ask.

I've got a new room mate from Korea.He is here to learn English better although he can speak quite OK-ish already. Basically his sister goes to church and he will usually go to church with her. But I never hear him talk anything about God or Christianity. The other thing is that he told me once while being drunk that he has 3 girlfriends. Yesterday I asked him about it and whether the each girlfriend is aware of the other and he said no.

Other than that he's got a digital camera and one of the housemates was looking at the pictures on it and came across pictures of my room mate naked (not that explicit). So I was wondering mainly who took those pictures and why.

I'm wondering how to deal with this. He might be commiting fornication and the Bible says that anyone who calls himself a brother in Christ but is commiting sexual immorality should not even be sat down with. But this guy....he doesn't call himself a brother,he just goes to church, and I don't know if he's having sex.

I hope I've given you enough info to give me a God-blessed answer.

Mark

-- Mark suomynona (mdude22_2000_1999@yahoo.com), July 13, 2004

Answers

Mark,

What should we do about all the non-practicing christians? Well some of them are almost athest. It is a point that the churches can not assume that the next generation will follow the current, that every generation must be converted and taught. Do not assume on your side that he is anything but christian-in-name only.

Making your self a pain in the ass is not really going to convince him at that age. Offering to share is good, but being preached at is not going to take. Often it takes a crisis or several before someone who was not taught as a child wants to turn to God.

If discussions of religion go nowhere, then you may have to wait for a teachable moment. Also to make your point, you yourself may have to climb in both knowage and practice of Christ/ianity. Successful, or at least happy people are good as missionarys.

Yes, he is likely doing all that young men do when they are first free. And lectures on the perils of such usually bounce off, at least until he is stung.

Sean

-- (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), July 13, 2004.

Nice job Sean. I liked your answer.

God dropped this person into your life for a reason - to make you stronger, or for prayer for this man possibly? Your job now may be to pray that the Holy Spirit can work in this man and show him truth.

How about placing a green scapular in this man's bedroom? The green scapular is a powerful weapon for conversions and bringing back luke warm children to the fold. The green scapular also does not need to be worn, as the brown one does.

May God bless you in your current situation.

-- Jennfier (jrabs@jrabs.com), July 13, 2004.

Jennifer,

Thanks for the kind words. And I should have mentioned prayer, as you did.

Should we mention Pascal's bet or is that too cynical? (if God exists, then worship is good. If not, then worship is useless, but does not cut that much time off of ones life). Actually I have often found peace in meditation, and solutions and hope in prayer. Sometimes the greatest miracle is when a stubern person changes.

What is a green scapular? How is it used?

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), July 14, 2004.

Thanks for the opinions.

I've got mixed feelings about your answers though. The first reply does make some realistic points and I do agree that sometimes it takes a crisis to wake people up.

The quote

"Yes, he is likely doing all that young men do when they are first free."

Now I'm not sure if this refers to all the men in the world or just Christians. Either way, I don't think you are in a position to judge the whole male population. I do know quite a lot of guys, Christian and Non-Christian, who lead quite decent lives despite being 'free'.

The part about about having to climb in knowledge and practice of Christianity I can understand. It's very useful to learn from one's own or other people's experiences.

The second e-mail I also like expect I have no idea what a green scapular is. Luke-warm children.....that reminds me, can someone please tell me which passage of the Bible mentions "The lukewarm will be spit out"?

The third reply...ummm, well I got no idea what that's got to do with the topic, dude. =P

Anyway, I know that being an example is a great way to have people want to listen to more. Jesus usually performed a miracle before teaching first so that people would take him seriously. I guess a lot of his situation is beyond my control so praying would also be a great idea.

Thanks for the feedback.

Mark

-- Mark suomynona (mdude22_2000_1999@yahoo.com), July 15, 2004.

Yes indeed, Sean, the softening of a stubborn, hardened heart is a miracle. I am praying and waiting for that very miracle to occur in a particular man for the past year!

The Blessed Virgin Mary promised to Sister Justine, "if it (the green scapular) be given with confidence, there will be a great number of conversions.”

The Green Scapular is a devotion to to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. In 1830, our Blessed Mother appeared to Sister Justine Bisqueyburu, a Daughter of Charity, during her time of prayer. She understood that this new scapular (made with green cloth) and the prayers of those who used it would be a means that God would use to bring to Himself those who had no faith and to reconcile those who had strayed from their faith.

The GREEN scapular or badge is one of the most famous scapulars, which enjoys privileges similar to the BROWN scapular of Mt. Carmel.

Great gifts of the Green scapular are for cures and conversions. The scapular may be worn about the neck, or hung in the person's room, or placed under the pillow, or kept in a wallet, OR PLACED IN THEIR CLOTHING. The CONFIDENCE of the person giving this garment of Mary, is most important for quicker conversion.

There is no investiture for this scapular. You must have it blessed by a Priest, and SOMEONE MUST SAY the following prayer as often as possible, at least once daily. “Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death."

The prayer can be said by the giver of the scapular to obtain results. So in this case, Mark could place the green scapular in his housemates bedroom and say the prayer daily.

It is powerful and does work. My father has dedicated his life to spreading the devotion of the green scapular. We have seen amazing testimony to it’s power in our family. But once again, it all falls back to prayer and faith.

God bless you, Sean and Mark.

-- Jennifer (jrabs@jrabs.com), July 15, 2004.

On the first reply: I am male. I understand the temptations. And if the person lacks the army lecture on disease, as well as the Christian life lecture, and is encouraged by culture to have sex, the result is going to be that.

On my second answer, third post: If we treat the Christian-by-culture-only as athest/agnostic, then we are back into the realm of (re?)converting such. So, while giving CS Lewis books might be more effective, Pascal's bet is a cynical way of getting them to consider God.

My own encounters with religion in general and Christianity in particular have been benificial in the long run. I was giving specific examples of some of the benifits.

On your reply: Being an example is a great way to get converts. But it is slow. And any falteriing on your part can be a counter example. And we are not saints all the time. We need some better and faster way to proceed, without alienating the target.

Jennifer:

Prayer does work. Sometimes it works by changing the one that is praying to be more effective or to be more content or such.

Thread-drift:

I can not find this word in my dictionary: scapular. Is this a headpiece? A plaque? What shape? What does it look like? How to make one? Does it get blessed on a certain day?

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), July 15, 2004.

Sean, Here is my very best visual description of the scapular - whether it be green or brown...it is worn around the neck - like a necklace, however it is made with string. OK - cut a piece of string about 36 inches or so and tie it. Once tied, straighten it out and attach a picture on each end. The picture will be in the shape of a small rectangle, maybe an inch long by 1/2 inch wide. It will have a backing of green cloth (wool, feltish type material)or brown (for devotion to Our lady of Mt. Carmel).

The pictures are described as such: On one side was a picture of the Blessed Virgin and on the other side was "a heart all ablaze with rays more dazzling than the sun, and as transparent as crystal." That heart, pierced with a sword, was encircled by an inscription of oval shape surmounted by a gold cross, and thus worded: "Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death."

You can wear this around your neck, letting one picture fall to your back, and the other to your chest. Or you can place it in your room ( green only - for the brown does need to be worn). Some people feel the scapular can get irritating - but I think one really just needs to get used to it, then it becomes as essential as any piece of clothing. When it does get bothersome, I tell myself..."suck it up, and offer up your annoyance to the poor souls in pergatory, who would love to be wearing the scapular".

Hope this all helps. It is powerful.

And your suggestion about prayer possibly needed for changing the one who is praying? Nice! I agree. I think God has been working very hard in my life to transform my as a result of my very intense prayer. I have been made aware that while the man I wait for is stubborn, I need to broken as well. But it is only being achieved through prayer, much, constant, intense prayer.

God Bless you Sean.

-- Jennifer (jrabs@jrabs.com), July 15, 2004.

Hi Mark, I dont believe your roommate is under any obligation to call himself a "brother" or any other label that takes your fancy. Worry about your own soul my friend, its hard enough understanding own own hearts without second guessing whats in the hearts of other men. If you are really concerned about your roommate ( with "mates" like you who needs enemies?)- just be an example to him.

Id worry a little less about his possible imperfections, Id stop gossiping like a 12 year old girl and Id concentrate on improving my own flaws( did you ask permission before looking at his photos?).

Jesus sat down and ate with the very worst sinners, much to the horror of the pharisees.If its good enough for Christ, its good enough for you . WHen God commanded us to "love our neighbour as ourselves" we sometimes forget the hardest part of this command can be to love ourselves. Let the love of Christ shine from you Mark.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 15, 2004.

Hello again,

Regarding the last post, I was not aware that I implied that my room mate has an obligation to call himself a brother let alone imply he is a brother-in-Christ. I'm sorry if it seems that way.

Second of all,I'm not gossiping. I have tried to write my concern without sounding like I'm pointing fingers or gossiping. It's not like I'd decided to snoop and search through my room mate's things. What happened is that my housemate (who I think is closer to my room mate than me since he's also Korean and they spend time together) was casually checking my room mates camera (sometimes they both seem to use it) and passed it to me to see pictures on it. I was expecting to just see sight-seeing pictures and maybe pictures of his friends and not suddenly come across naked pictures of him.

Also I haven't shared this issue with anyone who knows him (other than my housemate coz he already saw it,but all I did was remark about the photos and left it at that). My intention is not to spread gossip but to get wise advice on how to deal with it in God's way. I tried giving enough detail for you to understand the situation but not enough to make it sound like gossip. If it did, then it was not my intention.

So can you quit judging me as a gossiper or a two-faced roommate?That remark "mates like this who needs enemies" sounded rather rude. I don't appreciate it.

I guess it's difficult to understand where I'm coming from because I'm a complete stranger to you and you do not know the extent of my faith or my life experiences with God. But I do hope we can come to a solution that at least makes God happy with.

Mark

If you are really concerned about your roommate ( with "mates" like you who needs enemies?)- just be an example to him. Id worry a little less about his possible imperfections, Id stop gossiping like a 12 year old girl and Id concentrate on improving my own flaws( did you ask permission before looking at his photos?).

Jesus sat down and ate with the very worst sinners, much to the horror of the pharisees.If its good enough for Christ, its good enough for you . WHen God commanded us to "love our neighbour as ourselves" we sometimes forget the hardest part of this command can be to love ourselves. Let the love of Christ shine from you Mark.

-- Mark suomynona (..mdude22_2000_1999@yahoo.com..), July 16, 2004.

Kiwi,

I really do not believe that you intentionally set your self up as a counterexample, but there you are. Preaching, assumptions, etc show Mark how not to go about trying to convert others. May you have better luck in the future. If we can not be used as examples, then we may be used as counter-examples.

Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), July 18, 2004.

Hello Mark

Oh how I miss the innocence I’ve known-You have to learn how to die- if you want to be alive! Mark Im sorry mate I should have left the snide remarks out, puritans evoke most unchristian like feelings from me, a flaw of my own if you will. Apologies, however I hope you took something out of the rest of my comments. Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone indeed

While Sean and others were unable or unwilling to correct you, I call it how I see it and I am not concerned with winning approval from you.. I don’t believe we need to judge an initial negative reaction to the truth as a failure at all, however much that truth hurts. It is our duty to correct others when they misrepresent basic tenets of the Catholic faith and disturbingly on the evidence presented your approach-(“ anyone who calls himself a brother in Christ but is committing sexual immorality should not even be sat down with…."The lukewarm will be spit out") is more akin to the darker side of American protestant puritanical/ fundamentalist evangelical mindset than Catholic teachings.

might be committing fornication…and I don't know if he's having sex”

The first obvious point to make is that your friend may not even be committing fornication at all! Lets pretend he is! As well known American Catholic moral theologian Michael Novak says: “Sex needs to be approached with a measure of levity “ So Mark if your peers say to you “lighten up dude” they are touching on a truth about sexual sins which you may not yet be aware.

Christian teaching throughout the ages has always placed the sins of the flesh as the least serious. Dante for example depicted nine circles of hell and placed those who sinned sexually in the least severe. All the Fathers of the Church placed the sins of the soul to be far more deadly: arrogance, pride, despair, closure of the heart.

Sins of the flesh flow mainly from weakness of the will, in a sense sexual sins are attempts to be God like. They are on many levels lies we tell ourselves in order to satisfy our insecurities and loneliness. In a way such sins are the most understandable given our natures, and the least of sins.

Peace!

Hello Sean, yes I make “assumptions” all the time- hopefully based on generally accepted principles and through logical inferences. Im assuming you’re a real human being and not a baboon for starters, I can get it wrong though

As for “preaching”, Id prefer the word teaching, but as they say perception is reality, so call it what you will. I’m of Irish Catholic stock myself- it may help explain the bluntness at times. I’m interested that you have repeated Pascal’s Wager twice in this thread as an option in conversion and would be keen to hear from feedback from you or others on the fowling criticisms.

Most arguments for God attempt to show that there actually is a God. Pascal ignores this argument and attempts to show that regardless of whether in fact God is in fact true or false , it is somehow profitable or prudent for us to believe. He “wagers” on two possibilities- for and against the existence of God. If you win, you win the lot –eternal salvation, if you lose , well, so what,-you’ve lost nothing.

The key distinction here is between evidencing reasons and inducing reasons . What Pascal does is take inducing reasons and offers them not as they should be (merely pretend reasons to believe) but as reasons for somehow getting you to believe genuinely.

The other main objection of rational thinkers lies in that there are only “two possible ways” to bet and secondly that there is no evidential basis for saying that one of these is more probably correct than the other.

If we are to believe as Pascal concedes that we are in a situation of total ignorance (“reason can decide nothing here”) then the possible options must not be taken just as equally probable, but also as infinite. We cannot underestimate the strength of this rebuttal- since few of the infinite range of theoretically possible options are for us alive in our minds.

Peace

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 19, 2004.

Dear Mark,

You are led by Holy Spirit to be concerned for a soul who is destined to hell. Pray much. Intercede for your friend and also other sinner, but you yourself should be careful not to fall into temptations. Ask others also to pray. I too will remember you in my prayers. It would help if you could dedicate a rosary or a part of the rosary for your friends conversion. Every other sin is done outside the body, but a immoral man sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is God's temple and the Holy Spirit resides you. If anybody destroys God's temple God will destroy him (See 1 Corintains). So, you are on the right track, so do allow the devil to dull your hopes. God is with you and the whole Church of God is also wishes you well on your spiritual battle

God Bless!!!

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), July 20, 2004.

Sorry, some mistakes in a hurry. If anybody destroys God's temple God will destroy him (See 1 Corintians). So, you are on the right track, so do NOT allow the devil to dull your hopes. God is with you and the whole Church of God is also wishes you well on your spiritual battle.

God Bless You!!!

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), July 20, 2004.

With regard to Pascal's Wager, intuitively, for me it seems almost wrong in itself to "believe" or "practice faith" mainly as a way to possibly "win the bet."

Can "true" faith really be claimed if its simply based on a "prudent calculation?"

I suppose that its possible that the "prudent calculation," in prompting an individual to go through the motions of faith and practice might eventually lead him to some genuine awarenes.

This is just a hypothetical, and can't really be answered, but how might a (#1)"Pascal's Wage" type person be judged who simply goes through the motions of faith, practice and leading a moral life because "if its all true" he might be rewarded, versus the (#2)non- religious person who simply leads a good moral life because its right, with no expectation of reward?

While I think they both might be in the same "judgement" boat based on the slanted criteria given, I would personally "respect" person #2 more.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), July 20, 2004.

Hi Jim glad to see youre still hanging around. I agree, man is called to follow his conscience even when (objectively speaking) he is wrong. Otherwise any such adherence of "belief" would be nothing but a worthless sham. In stark contrast to the "believer",the "non believer" in your example retains his dignity through folowing his conscience even though they are clearly wrong. What really matters is in my opinion is the freedom they had to make this decision and their openness to acccepting the truth.

Gotta run dont think Ill be back in a long time Peace

-- kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

Hi,

I hope this is my last post as I have gathered enough of what I consider good advice from some of those who replied.

Perhaps I should have clearly stated my intention here. I am worried about my room mate, simple as that.I am not here to win anyone's approval (God's is the only one that should matter). I'm not planning to be a bloodhound but I am quite a watchdog. Now I do not know if my room mate is a Christian who wants to follow God in his life so I'm still finding that out. And why not? For if he is indeed a brother-in- Christ should I not be concerned about the things he is unaware that are drawing him away from his faith? Should I rather just forget about it and carry on with my own bussiness? Does the Bible not say that he who tries to save himself will not be saved,but he who tries to save another will?

Yet Kiwi, you compare me to one who cast the first stone. You imply I am here to condemn him. I'm sorry if you believe this. "anyone who commits...etc." and "lukewarm will be spit out" where simply quotes that I believe to be in the Bible. I forgot to state clearly that I wanted to ask if that if I have someone who says he is Christian and wants to live a Christian life but commits immoral sexual acts whether I should do what the afore-mentioned passage mentions.

I quote your respone to my earlier comment:

Mark:might be committing fornication…and I don't know if he's having sex”

Kiwi:The first obvious point to make is that your friend may not even be committing fornication at all! Lets pretend he is!

Kiwi, once again, look at my sentence. The operative word I use is "MIGHT". =)

Regarding your Micheal Novak and Dante comments: at the end of the day these are people commenting. As far as I know I always primarily follow what I read in the Bible and what my own conscience tells me (provided it goes with the Bible). If someone has some new principle to tell me that I'm not aware of I tend so do some research on it and importantly check if the Bible agrees on it checking various passages. I try to keep an open mind. We should keep open minds but let's not end up compromising God's teaching. There might even be wolves among sheep so we should investigate things we are unsure of even if it's taught to us from someone in our church. (No kiwi,I am not calling you wolf(in case you think so)).

So kiwi, if I'm wrong and you're right then I can best pray that God will enlighten me or forgive me at judgement day. I don't think arguing with you will do me much good, therefore if I'm right and you're wrong that it be best that I pray for you. Have a good life. =)

Now,Leslie John. May the good Lord bless your soul!(don't mean to be mean to you kiwi!)! You seemed understand very well what my feeling was. Although I do not know whether my room mate will go to hell or not (that is for God to judge) I do feel he might be 'in danger'.

I am quite familiar with the passage about our bodies being temples and sexual immorality meaning being sinning against the body itself (as far as I know it's probably one of the first passages thats kept me chaste thus far). Your response was the one that I felt I could best relate to.

Overall, thanks to everyone for contributing your thoughts and some of you who have helped. I know that sometimes it's easy to jump to conclusions and make assumptions when answering some questions, I've done so myself. But overall you've helped.

I hope that everyday we will all continue growing in God's wisdom.

Mark

-- Mark suomynona (..mdude22_2000_1999@yahoo.com..), July 21, 2004.

I do not really like Pascal’s wager that much. As I said, CS Lewis books (mere Christianity for good example) have brought people back into Christianity. And, Yes, I am assuming that the guy is only culturally Christian. If not true, then you have many more tools to work with. By both taking the toughest case and warning that such a case is very common, I may have helped. Even if Christian, CS L’s books are a wonderful tool, far better comfort to a Christian than to an atheist in Christian clothing.

However there is something of a funny trap or two in Pascal’s bet. The only way to fully activate it is to live it. Which would include acting the belief. Which would include things like praying to increase ones faith., and trying to live the life. Which would likely draw someone into the life. But the whole thing stinks of hypocrisy., which is why I hesitated to offer it.

Kiwi: I am Irish exCatholic myself: you are totally forgiven by me for all your stuff. I was trying to reply with a touch of humor/forgiveness anyway. I like the infinite possibility idea. Things in this direction is why I dislike St. Aquinas (and the Catechism founded on his writings): lack of imagination, lack of exploring more than 2 or 3 of the possibilities. But I also must say that his work is impressive.

Mark, Ahh, there is so often a last post that is followed by another such. Good luck anyway. Both you and (us through ) the mystical body of Christ need it.

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), July 21, 2004.

Mark, I can not let this alone yet.

"And if the person lacks the army lecture on disease, as well as the Christian life lecture, and is encouraged by culture to have sex, the result is going to be that. "

This self quote implies that there are other routes to the same part. But, again, finding out the real situation is critical. And in doing that, using your own judgement and caution is important.

So, we can maybe ask if he intends to marry her -- and go that route. Counseling, info on premarital sex vs long marriage. But if proposal has not happened, then usually the answer is uncertainty.

If he was just sleeping around, the army's sex ed (directly or researched and re-created by you) could be a way to go -- What each STD looks like, the fact that some have no symptoms, what each can do to the body, what dying from syph. is like. There are more than 30 STDs and it is likely that you will catch one. I once ran into a woman who was using one as a form of birth control. Effective, but strange.

If he is just keeping to one, and does not know if marriage is right yet, further inquirys into his attitudes toward her might be in order.

Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), July 22, 2004.

And I hope that I sound like a reverse Screwtape (C.S.L.) and not like the real thing.

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), July 22, 2004.

Hi Mark and Sean I cannot help but reply briefly.

Sean thank you for the forgiveness, blessed are the peacemakers.

Mark please take the time to extend your knowledge of what the Church teaches through reading your Catechism and not just Scripture. I accept your misgivings about my comments, however you need to search a little deeper yourself -although I don’t have the time to fully explain the Churches teachings. I hope others will explain what I mean more fully but please do not misconstrue my comments as an acceptance of sexual sins.

“I always primarily follow what I read in the Bible and what my own conscience tells me”

Mark as Catholics we must always consider “ Scripture, Tradition and the Church" as equal authority- its commonly known as the “three legged stool" of Catholic authority, however you seem to practising a form of “ sola scripture”- again more akin to the Protestant mindset. Deacon Paul M is very gifted at exposing the flaws in such a mindset, you would do well directing your questions to him. It takes much faith in dealing with, as you put it mere “people commenting” but it is part of being Catholic accepting such an approach to the truth- it is of course both biblical and logical to take such an approach. I beg you to take the time to appreciating the Church’s approach to morality-beyond the Bible alone.

I appreciate your effort in asserting you do not wish to condemn anyone and will only ask you read and reflect very carefully on our Holy Fathers words below.

Pope John Paul II

“Nevertheless, convincing the world of the existence of sin is not the same as condemning it for sinning. "God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him." Convincing the world of sin means creating the conditions for its salvation. Awareness of our own sinfulness, including that which is inherited, is the firstcondition for salvation; the next is the confession of this sin before God, who desires only to receive this confession so that He can save man. To save means to embrace and lift up with remptive love, with love that is always greater than any sin. In this regard the parable of the prodigal son is an unsurpassable paradigm.”

Finally I ask that you and others especially pray for me, as I am considering offering myself as a seminarian. Please keep me in your prayers.

Peace.

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), July 24, 2004.

Hello Mark,

I noticed that Kiwi recommended that you read the Catholic Church's teachings. A great place to find these would be in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It has a searchable database.

God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), July 26, 2004.