My Brother, My initial question to you just concerned marriage in a Catholic Church, but your response to my question, gave me the impression that only those in the Catholic Church can interpret the bible. This can not go unchallenged. One of my biggest problem with the Catholic Church, is when they lie to people that Mary can intervene and get them to heaven, when the bible says otherwise, or have I misinterpreted the Bible.

Another issue is that I can not go to heaven by Grace alone, when the bible I read tells me otherwise. I found some verse that you will be familiar with. I pray that God’s understand and the Holy Spirit will cover you as you read these verses.

My brother in Chirst, seek your understanding from our Heaven father, for He is the author of ALL THINGS. Do not look to man, or women, or their traditions.

Point 1. To even suggest that anyone, even Mary the human mother of Jesus, participates in dispensing the gift of eternal life is not only heresy, it is blasphemous."

As for the Catholic view of Mary as Mediatrix, let me refer you to:

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

He claimed to be the ONLY way to God Not one of several ways, but the one and only way. Not to teach the way, but to be the way to God. Nobody has ever made claims like that before and backed them, but Jesus did through his love, balanced life, and miracles.

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me."

Matthew 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."Note: No other world religious leader, such as ...or ever made this claim.

Point 2 - The Catholic Belief: Grace Alone will NOT get me to Heaven The implication is that a person will accept salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, then ignore the Word of God and live sinfully in the world.  If an individual truly places their faith in Jesus Christ, then they will desire to do His will.  If someone makes no effort to repent from sinful behavior after becoming a Christian, their faith would then be in question.

That’s what James referred to when he said that faith without works is dead (James 2:17).  If good works and participation in the sacraments were necessary for salvation and justification, then Jesus lied to the criminal on the cross next to Him when he said, “Today, you will be with me in Paradise.”  This criminal was justified solely on the basis of his faith in Jesus Christ.  He did not have the opportunity to participate in ritualistic sacraments, nor did he have time to do “good works.”  Moreover, Paul told the church in Ephesus: “8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast” Ephesians 2:8-9.  If that were not convincing enough, consider the following passage, Romans 3:23-28:

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

The Roman Catholic Church declares itself to be the church that Jesus started 2000 years ago. It further pronounces that the church never changes its dogmatic teachings. With this in mind we, once again, can examine the teachings of the Catholic Church today and prove they do not resemble the first century church. Nowhere in the New Testament do we see:

• Priests offering sacrifices for sins • Indulgences remitting punishment for sins • Prayers for souls in purgatory • Church leaders forbidden to marry • Infallible men • Salvation dispensed through sacraments • Rosaries, scapulars, holy water, crucifixes & statues

-- Nolan Naicker (nolannaicker@webmail.co.za), July 21, 2004

Answers

You misrepresent the Holy Catholic Church boy, what have ye been reading? Jack Chick? Are you trying to tell me that 30,000 conflicting denominations are better than the Church that has stood for 2000 years unchanged!?! Pfft.., go do your homework boy. Learn what Catholics really believe. www.catholic.com

-- jr (foo@bar.com), July 21, 2004.

Please explain to me how your theology works with Matt.26. Our Lord specifically told us that we'd be judged based on what we DO - our works of feeding, clothing, visiting, loving our neighbor. Not one mention in his teaching on the last judgment mentions grace alone or faith alone.

If you call yourself a Christian...how much of your theology is based on Christ's actual words as opposed to Paul's?

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), July 21, 2004.

Amen Joe!

-- jr (foo@bar.com), July 21, 2004.

nolan, your post is an affront to the rules of our forum. I would hope that the moderators will delete it, as slandering the church to promote anti catholic bigotry is not allowed here in our forum.

HOWEVER, i will answer your post in the thread where you originally posted it.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), July 21, 2004.

"your response to my question, gave me the impression that only those in the Catholic Church can interpret the bible"

  A: The New Testament is a collection of writings of the early Catholic Church, compiled by the bishops of the Catholic Church under the authority of the Catholic Church, for use by the Catholic Church. Who else would be qualified to interpret it? Besides it is apparent that Jesus didn't intend any other Church to interpret His Word, because He stated clearly that He never intended any other Christian church to exist. Surely the fact that Protestant interpretations of scripture consistently conflict with and contradict one another is clear evidence that they cannot accurately interpret scripture!

  "One of my biggest problem with the Catholic Church, is when they lie to people that Mary can intervene and get them to heaven, when the bible says otherwise, or have I misinterpreted the Bible"

  A: Actually your biggest problem is that you don't understand what the Catholic Church teaches. The Church has never suggested that Mary can "intervene and get anyone into heaven". Whether you get to heaven depends on whether you spend your earthly life accepting Christ or rejecting Him. Mary does however intercede for us because she is a Christian, and all Christians are intercessors. Haven't you even offered prayers to God on behalf of another? Asked God to help a friend who was going through a rough time? If you have, then you were interceding for that person. If you can intercede, as an earthly sinner, certainly those Christians who are now before the throne of God can do so far more efficiently, perfectly, and powerfully. If you think the Bible says otherwise, then yes, you have misinterpreted it, because it says no such thing.

  "Another issue is that I can not go to heaven by Grace alone, when the bible I read tells me otherwise."

  A: Again, you waste your time attacking non-existent teachings. In fact the supposed teaching you attack here is the exact OPPOSITE of the Church's actual teaching. The Catholic Church teaches, consistently and explicitly, that salvation is BY GRACE ALONE. The dangerous heresy that the founders of Protestantism introduced is that salvation is by FAITH alone, irrespective of anything we do or don't do. The Bible however reflects the teaching of the Church that compiled it - that faith alone, in the absence of works, cannot save anyone. But, grace alone is the source of both the faith and the works of Christian charity that are required for salvation. Therefore salvation is by grace alone.

  "My brother in Chirst, seek your understanding from our Heaven father, for He is the author of ALL THINGS. Do not look to man, or women, or their traditions".

  A: Right! Which is why it is contrary to God's plan to follow the traditions of Luther or Wesley or Calvin or Henry VIII or Knox or Brown or Lindley or Booth or any of the other human founders of denominational religion, instead of following the one true Church Jesus Christ founded for all men.

  "To even suggest that anyone, even Mary the human mother of Jesus, participates in dispensing the gift of eternal life is not only heresy, it is blasphemous."

  A: Mary does not "dispense eternal life". Where did you get that? She intercedes on our behalf. Eternal life is "dispensed" by GOD. Mary is HUMAN.

  "As for the Catholic view of Mary as Mediatrix, let me refer you to: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

A: The Bible also says there is only one teacher. However, every denomination has teachers. The understanding is that their teaching is subservient to the teaching of the One Teacher. In the same way, there was one work of Mediation, which took place on the Cross, and which reinstated the relationship between God and man which had been broken by the sin of Adam and Eve. That was THE work of Mediation. Any ministry of mediation, or teaching, or healing, or counseling that is done by members of His Church is subject to and subservient to the One Mediator, One Teacher, One Healer, and One Counselor.

"He claimed to be the ONLY way to God Not one of several ways, but the one and only way. Not to teach the way, but to be the way to God. Nobody has ever made claims like that before and backed them, but Jesus did through his love, balanced life, and miracles".

A: Agreed. He also said that there was to be ONE Church and that all men were to become disciples of it.

  "The Catholic Belief: Grace Alone will NOT get me to Heaven"

A: Again, there is no such belief. See above.

"If someone makes no effort to repent from sinful behavior after becoming a Christian, their faith would then be in question."

A: Yes, it certainly would. Just as it would be in question if they performed no works of Christian charity. Therefore, faith without works is worthless, just as the Word of God so plainly states.

  "If good works and participation in the sacraments were necessary for salvation and justification, then Jesus lied to the criminal on the cross next to Him when he said, “Today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

A: Nonsense. When this man accepted Christ, He accepted the whole package - faith in Christ, commitment to a life of service, and membership in the Church. It wasn't his fault that circumstances prevented him from ever growing in faith as the Bible requires. It also wasn't his fault that circumstances prevented him from actively living out his new commitment to following Christ in a life of service and charity as the Bible requires. He did all that he could do in his allotted lifespan after coming to Christ. That's all Christ asks of any of us.

"This criminal was justified solely on the basis of his faith in Jesus Christ.  He did not have the opportunity to participate in ritualistic sacraments, nor did he have time to do “good works.”

A: You got it. He did not have the "opportunity". God does not expect us to do that which we never have the opportunity to do. But he did have the commitment, or he could not have been saved.

"The Roman Catholic Church declares itself to be the church that Jesus started 2000 years ago."

A: No, it is history that declares this. If you know history, you cannot doubt that the Holy Catholic Church is the original Christian Church. There was no other Christian church on this planet for 1,000 years after Christ rose from the dead.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 21, 2004.

I like Joe's comment. I am tired of hearing some Christians saying that it don't matter that much how you live your life as long as you believe and love Christ.

Ofcourse if you really did believe and love Him you'd follow his ways and principles.

Mark

-- Mark (Mark@mark.mark), July 22, 2004.

top

-- jr (foo@bar.com), July 23, 2004.

im pulled back again-- when i read something like what nolan had written, i actually waver...then i read how paul and others respond, and im pulled back so that my feet are on the ground. i am just so weak in faith when its challenged.

in any case, i love the crash course in catholic apologetics. so THERE, nolan! haaha. just kidding. nolan-- if you read this, do you have any thoughts on what others have posted in this thread?

have a good weekend, everyone

-- jas (jas_r_22@hotmail.com), July 23, 2004.

"When Matthew refers to being judged by what we [as Christians] do--it is not a reference to the judicial judgement that we face at the end of time which pertains to salvation."

Really! Have you read the passage in question? ...

"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You? Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into ETERNAL LIFE". (Matthew 25:44-46)

This passage sounds to you like it deals only with those who are "already saved"?? ETERNAL PUNISHMENT vs. ETERNAL LIFE sure sounds like the final judgment to me! This passage of the Holy Word of God clearly states that NO-ONE is "already saved" while on this earth; that salvation wil be granted or not granted to each individual at the moment of death; and that works of Christian charity a person has or has not done during his earthly life will weigh heavily on that decision.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 26, 2004.

"Their works are done because they are saved; they are not done in order to earn salvation".

A: You make two separate statements here.

One of them is absolutely correct - works "are not done in order to earn salvation". The Catholic Church has taught from the time of Christ that salvation is a free gift that cannot be earned.

The other statement is absolutely false - "their works are done because they are saved." Matthew quotes Christ Himself as saying that those who did good works are accepted into the kingdom and those who neglect good works go off to everlasting punishment. It's a fairly lengthy passage - verses 34 through 46 - and it deals ONLY with the effects of good works on salvation. The idea of faith isn't even mentioned here. Of course, we know that faith is also essential, because works without faith is mere humanitarianism, while faith without works is dead and useless; and other passages of scripture emphasize the need for faith.

That's the problem with the Protestant approach to Scripture. They overemphasize passages which appear to support the traditions of their human founders, and they ignore passages which conflict with those traditions of men. The holy doctrine of the Catholic Church must be in full agreement with EVERY passage of Scripture. The Word of God cannot contradict itself. Therefore, if some passages emphasize the need for faith and others emphasize the need for works, the only honest conclusion is that BOTH faith and works are required means of accepting the free gift of salvation.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 27, 2004.

"Faith without works is dead because it isn't real. True faith is evidenced by what we do."

A: Right! Therefore ...

True faith is not possible without good works ...

Salvation is not possible without true faith ...

And the logical conclusion which necessarily follows is ...

Salvation is therefore not possible without good works.

"Because, by His [God's] forknowledge of what they did with with His Son--He was able to predestine them to eternal blessings...."

A: As the Bible clearly states, God has predestined all men for eternal blessings. But He has given men free will, so that they may choose to reject their divine destiny, and substitute a destiny of their own making. The heresy of selective predestination was solidly renounced early in the history of Christianity.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 27, 2004.

"For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died FOR ALL, therefore all died; and HE DIED FOR ALL, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf." (2 Corinthians 5:14-15)

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

"it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish." (Matthew 18:14)

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to ALL MEN." (Romans 5:18)

"for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." (Luke 9:56)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 27, 2004.

Could you explain how "all men" can be interpreted to mean "only the elect", in other words, "not all men"??

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 28, 2004.

The Bible is clear that only those who have received salvation receive these eternal blessings.

A: The Bible is clear that no-one receives salvation until they die, and that "salvation" is synonymous with "eternal blessings".

The Bible only says that God wants that all should be saved.., but obviously that doesn't mean all people will be saved.

A: Right! So, one of two possibilities follows ... either (1) God does the opposite of what He wants to do. He wants all men to be saved, but He sends some men to hell anyway, acting in direct violation of His own will; or (2) It isn't God who decides who will be saved and who will be damned. Each human being decides that for him/herself, by freely choosing to follow God's plan, or freely choosing to reject God's plan.

Can you provide any verses where we see that "all people" are elected to be adopted children of God or are elected to eternal life?

A: I already provided several.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 28, 2004.