Hello:

I came across this site a few weeks ago and I think I need some advice. I am 20 years old and have been with my girlfriend for 7 months. We met at our Church youth group and from the beginning we wanted to be chaste. But lately things have been getting pretty serious. It started when a few weeks ago her parents went away on a trip. She was at her house with her little sister alone for a week and I would go everyday just to make sure they were ok and to visit her. It was a friday and we rented movies and we fell asleep in her room. We woke up around 3 in the morning and started kissing. Before I knew it our hands were traveling and our clothing came off.

I'm sorry to be so vulgar but that is all that happened. We eventually realized that it was getting late and stopped at "2nd base." Since then we've done that a few more times but never go all the way. I love her so much. I feel like we're expressing our love and that we are mature enough to stop before we are commiting a serious sexual sin. I just want to know if what we have done is put our souls in a grave state disconnected from God. We go to mass every Sunday and recieve communion but we feel guilty but we don't want our youth group to criticize us for always abstaining from Eucharist every Sunday. I know I have to go speak to a priest. It has been almost a year since my last confession so I know I have to go.

I guess i really don't have a question. I just want to know what you all think. I still love her and I love God but I just want to know if what we are doing is an acceptable expression of our love? I know that I shouldn't put myself in an occasion to sin, but I don't think it is a sin. Anyway, I'm confused. I'd appreciate some advice.

"Simon"

-- "Simon" (needadvice@help.com), July 28, 2004

Answers

Andrew's post giving personal info has been deleted. Andrew can re- post if he chooses, minus the personal info. We do allow individuals to post their correct name and email address if they so choose.

-- Ed (Catholic_Moderator@yahoo.com), July 30, 2004.

As a matter of principle, I don't personally edit posts. The post giving personal infomation has been removed. We do permit individuals to list their real names and email addresses. Andrew can re-post his comments with a request for Simon to contact him via email, if he so chooses.

-- Ed (Catholic_Moderator@yahoo.com), July 30, 2004.

As a matter of principle I do not amend text created by others. I have deleted the entire post that included personal information. Andrew may re-submit his comments without the additional personal information. We do permit individuals to give their real names and email addresses should they so choose. Andrew may request that Simon contact him in this manner.

-- Ed (Catholic_Moderator@yahoo.com), July 30, 2004.

Sin isn't whatever you "think" it is. Sin is what the Church teaches is morally wrong. Besides, if you really don't think there is anything wrong in what you are doing, why are you so upset? The fact is, you didn't "stop before committing a serious sexual sin", but at least you stopped before committing an even more grave sexual sin - so far. It is a given that if you keep committing the sins you have been committing, you will certainly be having intercourse outside of marriage before long.

You have already mentioned all that you must do, so it doesn't really seem that you are in need of advice. Get to confession as soon as possible. Stop receiving the Eucharist until you do so. And avoid what you already know is a serious occasion of mortal sin.

And no, fornication is not an expression of love. It is an expression of lust. Placing the interests of another above your own interests is love; and facilitating the sin of another is never in their best interest. We are also called to love ourselves, and cutting ourselves off from sanctifying grace is never in our own best interest.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 28, 2004.

Great post Paul! You are a "natural" when it comes to giving good Catholic advice. May God bless you and your family.

-- - (David@excite.com), July 28, 2004.

Paul has given excellent advise.

Even though you love one another, what you described happened around 3:00 a.m. was clearly sin at its work finding the opportunity. Let it not be regarded as a part of true love. Root it out. In love, there is no selfishness, it is not uncontrollable in its expressions of feelings and passions, and burning oneself and burning the other in spiritual destruction. True love has self control (watching movies in such situations is giving opportunity to the devil), love is considerate, respectful, and does not rejoice over sin or making your beloved a party to sin, but regrets and repents with tears before God against whom we all sin. God loves you, but hates sin. If you are a repentant sinner, then he will forgive you and destroy sin. If you refuse to repentant, then since you are a sin-bearer, you too will be destroyed along with the sin.

"If you do something bad with pleasure, the pleasure will pass away and the bad will remain. If you do something good with weariness, the weariness will pass away and the good will remain."

Aim for something that should remain for a long time. All these things will rob off all the thousands of blessings, joys, and happiness that God wants to give you in marriage. The evil one wants to rob (see John 10:10) all these things this way; looks quite insignificant to you now, but afterwards it will be too late when you will discover it. Aim for a holy and good marriage.

Before marriage, for the love of God, make a mutual agreement that you will be as formal as possible in your dealings with one another. You and she are both God's property. God has not given authority to you over her or vise versa to do what you please. These have their proper place only after a true marriage. These things are all yours only after you are joined by holy matrimony before 3 witnesses, before God, before the church, and before your own conscience.

May divine wisdom prevail over animal passion.

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), July 29, 2004.

Hi Simon,

You have some super great posts to consider. The only thing I can add that WILL help is this:

When your feelings of lust (Leslie hit the nail here) creep in, quickly ask the Holy Spirit to take them away. He will if you ask! But it will not happen on it's own. This is a spiritual battle - use a spiritual weapon such as the amazing power of the Holy Spirit.

You can throw in a prayer to St Michael the Arch Angel also for extra protection.

God Bless and stay strong Simon.

Jennifer

-- Jennifer (jrabs@jrabs.com), July 29, 2004.

How can catholic priest/bishops or even popes give advice about marriage, relationships and sex, when they have never been involved in one....go figure.

Derrick

-- Derrick (Bugsy99za@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.

How can a suicide counselor be of any use when they have never personally committed or attempted suicide? How can an oncologist be helpful when he has never personally had cancer? How can a person with no children be a child psychologist? Maybe because these individuals have studied the subject in depth, and become expert in their field?

Clergy can offer valuable guidance in these areas for several reasons. First, because they have the necessary training in counseling. Second, because they have more objective knowledge about marriage, including its spiritual dimensions, than most married people do. Most married people's ideas of marriage are based on nothing more than their own personal subjective experience. And third, because they can be completely objective, addressing situations from without rather than subjectively from within - just like the other trained professionals listed above.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 29, 2004.

Simon,

You are clearly a Christian and God has given you a thoughtful and sensitive heart and conscience. I rejoice in that! It sounds like He's also put a nice young woman in your life. I rejoice in that! Remember, the Lord wants the very best for both of you.

Speaking from personal experience, I would say it will *not* be easy for you to stop if you keep on being so physically close. While I would not dare judge whether you have subjectively committed mortal sin, I would say if you are reckless after this point, it would certainly become a danger of mortal sin for you, since you've been enlightened with all this advice! Sounds like you're in great danger of fornication, with all the ramifications that might entail.

Be safe, dear Simon. Pray with your sweet love, and honor the Lord with her, and even kiss her, but don't take your clothes off. It will save you much grief and heartache later on, believe me. The Lord loves you; keep Him first. You won't regret it. Good marriages are not based on mere passion, but on common faith and relationship with Christ.

Cordially, Michael

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), July 29, 2004.

Michael, by far, has been the most pastoral in addressing my dilema. Thank you, Michael, for being so sincere and honest. Instead of giving me an uncompassionate, cold answer from a book, you spoke to my heart and encouraged me to rejoice in the love God has offered me through my girlfriend, while teaching me to respect the gifts God has given me. Thank you Michael for being such an exemplary counselor!

"Simon"

-- "Simon" (needadvice@help.com), July 29, 2004.

Derrick: If Jesus was physically at your side right now and he gives you some advice on marriage matters, would you disqualify Him just because he was never married?. Or should we erase Paul's letters to Corinthians, where he gives abundant counseling on marriage, just because he was never married?

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.

Dear Simon,

I wanted to also tell you: I still love my girlfriend, but because of this sin I cannot be with her anymore (at least for a long time). It is incredible pain and anguish to have these true feelings of love, but to know you ruined it because of being prideful in thinking you could overcome temptations late at night. I have the feelings of love you do, but I cannot express them purely because I expressed them impurely. If you love her, you must avoid (at the cost of your relationship) the occasion of sin at all costs. Your spiritual state, hers, and your relationship to each other and to God is on the line. And, when the passion is to extreme heights, one will almost always choose in favor of the passion. I know this firsthand, because through the hours of final temptation I was saying I wouldn't do it and so was she...But when you are in the fire you will be burned, and when you are placing yourself in a sexual temptation you will crack eventually. Only God can save us; don't place yourself in a position that would sever your ties to God's lifegiving grace. I will be praying for you Simon.

Sincerely in Christ,

Andrew

-- Andrew Staupe (stau0085@umn.edu), July 29, 2004.

WHOA, MODERATORS:

please eliminate Mr. Staupes personal contact information beyond his email address, as i'm sure he must not realize that this is a very public forum with MANY visitors who could read it and use that information in negative ways.

Andrew, in the future the best idea is to email someone your information or have them email you. be safe, andrew, and a little more cautious on the net.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), July 30, 2004.

As a matter of principle I do not amend text created by others. I have deleted the entire post that included personal information. Andrew may re-submit his comments without the additional personal information. We do permit individuals to give their real names and email addresses should they so choose. Andrew may request that Simon contact him in this manner.

Moderator

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), July 30, 2004.

Hello again Simon!

I don't know if you'll return to this thread, but I just wanted you to know that, with love and respect for both of you, I have been praying for you and your wonderful girlfriend.

God our Father loves you both so very much! I am very strongly assured of that as I pray for you. I get the impression the Lord delights in you.

The only thought I would add from what I've already written is this: Holy Marriage is meant to be a blessing and protection upon sexual intercourse, because it involves not only the joining of two into one flesh, but it also unites the spirits of those who are so joined. In other words, there are Spiritual ramifications to sex, and so it is important that you be covered by the umbrella or sacred hedge of Holy Marriage--it is a tremendous blessing.

By the way, Marriage is not always easy; it is a growth and "stretching" process for both parties, and quite challenging indeed when children come! But I assure you, it is well worth the work. And it is truly Sacramental, offering the Grace of Jesus to help you truly love each other with faithful commitment and mutual care and encouragement.

God bless you, Simon. I hope you read this!

Cordially, Michael

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), July 31, 2004.

We woke up around 3 in the morning and started kissing. Before I knew it our hands were traveling and our clothing came off... We eventually realized that it was getting late and stopped at "2nd base." Since then we've done that a few more times but never go all the way... I know that I shouldn't put myself in an occasion to sin, but I don't think it is a sin. Anyway, I'm confused. I'd appreciate some advice.

My advice is simple: Marry the girl.

-- Disillusioned Catholic (skeptickk@yahoo.com), August 01, 2004.

My advice is simple: Marry the girl

yes, overly simple. we havent even begun to address important issues such as whether its love or lust, passing fling or long haul, doomed to sinful relations or one of spiritual growth.

even then we must look and ask if simon is READY to be married. i know that im not getting married until i'm twenty eight (at least) because i dont feel that at this point in my life i am in a position to make a responsible decision in that regard. in a world where lust=love=marraige=divorce, how can one jump so quickly to say marry right away at age twenty, before emotional maturity and moral ideology even settle in? emotivism, its the new 'god' of secularism.

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), August 01, 2004.

The trouble with you, paul, is that you think too much. :)

-- Disillusioned Catholic (skeptickk@yahoo.com), August 01, 2004.

I've enjoyed reading all your responses. I've spoken with a priest since writing and I went to confession. Its clear to me, with the help of my associate pastor, that what my girlfriend and I have been going through is not very much different than what most happily married and chaste couples went through before they married. He's also help me realize that what my girlfriend and I have been what most unhappily married and spiritually defunct couples go through. The choice is up to us whether we want to grow in this challenge, or let it corrupt us. My girlfiend and I have both been talking a lot and we realized that we should take it much slower. We still see eachother a lot, but we only go out. It'll be a long while before we visit eachother's houses and spend time a lone. It's just too risky, and I feel like there's so much pressure taken off me. We just spend time withother so free from pressure. I really am falling for her. I'm happy things are working out ok. I don't know how things will work out for us, but we're just happy to be with eachother. Thank you all for your help.

God Bless

Simon

-- "Simon" (needadvice@help.com), August 02, 2004.

IMHO your question is not something "we" can answer and I wont attempt to patronise you with an attempt to do so. There is no "right age" to get married nor is there a "right time" to date before marrying. You are mature enough at your age in both the eyes of the Church and the State to be married. Such a decision can only come from your own heart, we cant see the depth of your love for this girl and to express an opinion attempting to do so is to sin against God. Good luck Simon

Courtenay

"Hail, Hail the lucky ones- I refer to those in love!"

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), August 02, 2004.