Why can't women be priests?

Thanks,

New Guy

-- New Guy (newguy@nothing.com), July 29, 2004

Answers

Because the priesthood was defined by Jesus Christ who established it; and He defined it as a male ministry, by selecting male priests twelve times out of twelve, in spite of the fact that many good, holy women were available. Surely if God had intended priestesses in His Church, at least one of the original twelve priests would have been a woman. Actions sometimes speak louder than words. Presumably the reason Christ selected men was His intent that His priests would stand in the person of Himself, and He, the Christ, was male, even though God per se has no gender.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 29, 2004.

A good explanation here hope this helps>>>>> http://www.vocations.com/priest/ordinsacer.html

Peace.............

-- Andrew m Tillcock (drewmeister7@earthlink.net), July 29, 2004.

In that encyclycal, it said:

"the Church "does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination.""

Isn't that heresy?

The Church doesn't have the authority to treat women like equals to men? Of course it does.

Doesn't that mean that it's almost as if women aren't fully human beings? Since Jesus was a man, women will never be full human beings and always second class?

It seems to me as if God didn't mean it that way. Yet women, by the fact that they are women, are told that they aren't allowed to make decisions about how things are done in the Church. Doesn't that point to flaws in the current theology of the preisthood?

Of course the Church can admit women into the preisthood! It isn't like the doctrine of the Trinity for goshakes. It was done a certain way before, let's do it another way now. Just like other things the Church has changed involving discipline.

-- New Guy (newguy@nothing.com), July 29, 2004.

"The Church doesn't have the authority to treat women like equals to men?"

Equal in dignity and in value, not identical in function. If God had meant for men and women to be exactly the same, He would have made us all one sex.

"Doesn't that mean that it's almost as if women aren't fully human beings?"

Men can't have babies. Doesn't that mean we aren't fully human beings? No!

"It was done a certain way before, let's do it another way now."

God does not change. His Truth, therefore, cannot change, either. And His Truth is the foundation of the Catholic Faith. The Catholic Faith does not change; any attempt at changing it makes it Protestant.

PS. Change for change's sake is always a very bad idea. Only things that are inherently bad should be changed, like crime, poverty, corruption, etc.

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), July 29, 2004.

"the Church does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination. Isn't that heresy?"

A: In fact, this has been the constant teaching of the Christian Church from day one. Heresy is a teaching contradictory to the teaching of the Church. Therefore, if the Church reversed it's God-given doctrine and claimed to have the authority to ordain women, THAT would constitute heresy.

"The Church doesn't have the authority to treat women like equals to men? Of course it does. Doesn't that mean that it's almost as if women aren't fully human beings?"

A: Since when is being a priest the measure of being "fully human"? Does that mean that the 99.9% of Catholic men who are not priests are likewise less than "fully human"??

"Yet women, by the fact that they are women, are told that they aren't allowed to make decisions about how things are done in the Church."

A: Nonsense. Women hold many administrative, decision-making positions in the Church, at both parish and diocesan levels. Most priests on the other hand are not involved in "making decisions about how things are done in the Church" beyond their own parish, since such administrative ministry is not an essential element of priestly ministry.

"Doesn't that point to flaws in the current theology of the preisthood?"

A: No.

"Of course the Church can admit women into the preisthood! It isn't like the doctrine of the Trinity for goshakes."

A: No, not quite. The male priesthood is not dogma. But it is doctrinal truth, clearly defined as part of the deposit of faith, and as such CANNOT be changed.

"It was done a certain way before, let's do it another way now. Just like other things the Church has changed involving discipline."

A: But this is done a certain way because God Himself indicated He wants it done that way. Not in the same ballpark as abstaining from meat on fridays.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 29, 2004.

Paul, great answers.

I'd like to add this, which has been said many times before:

The Church exists to please God, not man. (or, if you prefer: God put us here so we may carry out His will, not the will of other people.)

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), July 29, 2004.

Wrong, God puts us here to be relational. We do everything in God's image which is like the Trinity, equal. We are all equal. Our functions may be different in fulfilling different purposes, but we must not prohibit anybody from doing something or being soemthing that is both good, and possible.

Name me one thing that is both good and possible that somebody cannot do or be? I dare you.

Being a priest is something that anybody can be, within the parameters of being a believing human being who acts the way a priest acts.

-- New Guy (Newguy@nothing.com), July 29, 2004.

Wrong, God puts us here to be relational.

{Thats presumption. No one knwos the exact reason why God put us here, andwhile we are ertainly social animals that thrive in community, we are not here ot simley be relatonal, but to Serve God's will.}-Zarove

We do everything in God's image which is like the Trinity, equal.

{So sin is in God's Image?}-Zarove

We are all equal.

{No, we are not. Equality under the law is a good ideal, as it means justice and fair play for all. No one will have specialprivoladges over another. However, soem of us are better at matematics than others. some are better at linguistics. Some are better at sports. We are not all equel. We are all different and unequel, with different skills needed ot make life worthwhile and advancing to God's will.}- Zarove

Our functions may be different in fulfilling different purposes, but we must not prohibit anybody from doing something or being soemthing that is both good, and possible.

{Except you are presumitn it is both good and posisble for a owman to be a Priest. The toruble is, a Preist, unless I had another storke or two and am compeltley off here, is addressed as "Father" and represents a typeof Paternal Authority. A Priest represents Crist. Nun's are female cergy ( I know not exaclty clergy but not sre what they are.) They reresent the chruhces charity in a way no man ever could. A man shoudl not be a Nun. If we allow female Priets shoidl we allow male Nuns?}-Zarove

Name me one thing that is both good and possible that somebody cannot do or be? I dare you.

{OK, its good to be a great orator and be able to convence peopel of good ideas. Not everyone is capable of this. Its good to be a Scholar, but not everyone has the mental capacity for it.}-Zarove

Being a priest is something that anybody can be, within the parameters of being a believing human being who acts the way a priest acts.

{False. It also requires semenary training, and the mental ability to understand and execute the functions, as well as the typ pf charecter and devotion one wodl expect in a demanding job. Not everyone can be a heart surgeon either, and is idiotic to say otherwise.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), July 29, 2004.

Sorry New Guy, not so. Priests by definition are male. Female priests are not possible.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 29, 2004.

"Wrong, God puts us here to be relational. "

Is that all he put us here to do? From what I gather from Scripture and the Church, God put us here to follow Him and not our own selfish desires and wills...But that's just me, and the teaching of the Church from day one.

"We do everything in God's image which is like the Trinity, equal."

The Trinity is equal, but not every member in the Trinity has the same function. The Son, Christ Jesus, even though equal was obedient to the Father in Heaven. The Father did not die on the Cross, but Christ who followed His Father's Will. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is not the same, though equal, to the Father or the Son. That is the mystery of the Trinity. They are all equal, but each member is different and has a different function. The Father is our Father, the Son is our Savior, and the Holy Spirit guides us into "all truth". Just because people are equal, doesn't mean their identity, role, or intrinsic function is the same. Equal does not mean identical.

"Name me one thing that is both good and possible that somebody cannot do or be?" Being a concert pianist is good and possible, but not everyone can or will do it. I know this firsthand, cause I am training in a Music School right now. It is a good thing to do when you offer your work to God, but God gives only certain people talents and drives in the piano field, and this is true for everything else in life. And, like Zarove pointed out so well, being an orater or a scholar takes a personality and charisma that not everyone possesses.

"Being a priest is something that anybody can be, within the parameters of being a believing human being who acts the way a priest acts."

Does Scripture say this? Look at the Old Testament Priesthood, and other facets of Jewish life. Plus, in becoming a Priest in the Catholic Church, one is submitting his life to the Church and her teaching. And, quite explicitly, the teaching from Scripture-Church Fathers-modern times is unchanging and will not change. If you want to be a Priest in the Catholic Church, you must obey the teachings of the Church.

-- Andrew Staupe (stau0085@umn.edu), July 29, 2004.

If a woman can't be a priest , then why they can become a nun ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), July 29, 2004.

The Church doesn't have the authority to treat women like equals to men? Of course it does.

the church already treats men and women as equals. conversely, you state that it is not good enough to be a woman, unless the woman behaves exactly like a man. but thankfully equality isnt based on your sexist view.

Doesn't that mean that it's almost as if women aren't fully human beings? Since Jesus was a man, women will never be full human beings and always second class?

women are never going to be male. Jesus was definitively male. that doesnt make them less than human, just as it doesnt make men God (because Jesus was also God). Again, humanity and equality or not based on sex or role, it is your view that puts them there.

Yet women, by the fact that they are women, are told that they aren't allowed to make decisions about how things are done in the Church.

you try to tell me that mother teresa had no power in either the church or the world? try telling a mother superior that she doesnt have decision making power. youre likely to get clouted for such a statement. in your bigotry against the church, you dont even understand that women DO have power in the church. mention this about bernadette, or Mary the Mother of God, or any number of women who have effected VAST change in the church, and you will be laughed at. while they cant be priests, men cant be nuns, AND nuns don't answer to priests, they answer to other nuns. but you didnt bother to do any research, apparently, before complaining.

God puts us here to be relational. We do everything in God's image which is like the Trinity, equal.

show me where, in the bible, early church writings, or any papal ex cathedra statement, it says that we are put here to be relational. we are put here to worship God in the way that He demands of us, not in the way that secular society wants.

We are all equal.

again, where is this in church writings? i think you should read the parable of the talents before you make such a silly statement. each person is given different talents in different numbers, and we will be judged on how we use the talents we are given... but it does not say we are equal in any way.

Our functions may be different in fulfilling different purposes, but we must not prohibit anybody from doing something or being soemthing that is both good, and possible.

this is the first intelligent thing you've had to say on this matter... but you make one flaw in your arguement: comitting the heresy of allowing a false priesthood of women would be niether good nor possible.

Name me one thing that is both good and possible that somebody cannot do or be? I dare you.

um, by definition being possible is something that someone can do... and here, again, i point out the flaw in your arguement: it is not possible for a woman to become a priest.

Being a priest is something that anybody can be, within the parameters of being a believing human being who acts the way a priest acts.

WRONG! ordination requires acts in persona Christi and therefore requires men. women act much in the role that Mary did. do you dishonor Mary because she was not a male?

-- paul h (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), July 30, 2004.

The way we are made, God knows that roles are good for us and what is not. God in His wisdom knows in advance the hidden dangers of mixing or interchanging certain roles, especially priesthood. The dangers both the person and souls entrusted will be unimaginable, though we cannot see now. It is wise to obey God!

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), July 30, 2004.

The way we are made, God knows what roles are good for us and what is not. God in His wisdom knows in advance the hidden dangers of mixing or interchanging certain roles, especially priesthood. The dangers both the person and souls entrusted to the person will be unimaginable, though we cannot see now with frail human intelligence. It is wise to obey God! Remember the disobedience of in the Garden of Eden, it looked very harmless!

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), July 30, 2004.

Women can be Priests but not Catholic ones. I know you are all stating what you believe and eloquently too. However it is painful to be told it is not Gods will that women should be priests when I know many good women whom God has called to that role. I too am working my through the process of selection to test the vocation that I believe I have. When God calls I have no choice but to obey my Lord and Saviours will.

Bless you all.

-- Sharon (sharon.guy@ntu.ac.uk), July 30, 2004.

God does not call anyone to a way of life He Himself has already forbidden. He doesn't contradict Himself. A woman can be a minister in certain Protestant denominations, some of which may call their ministers "priests". But such ministers are not actually priests.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 30, 2004.

Interesting question! Perhaps this could help. A priest is called to be a father to the people of God. By definition, a father is male. That doesn't mean women can't be incredible leaders in the Church--consider the Scriptural examples of Priscilla the evangelist, Huldah the prophet, Deborah the judge of all Israel, Chloe the deaconess, the virgin daughters of Phillip who were prophets. The Holy Spirit definitely does work through women! It is simply that, apparently, God our heavenly Father wishes us to have a father figure as a priest. In spite of the fact that He trained women to be disciples, Christ chose men as the twelve. By the way, this is why Pope John Paul II doesn't step down or resign the papacy in spite of bad health--a father doesn't resign from the family! And "pope" means papa or father. Whether a pope could change this in the future with the power of the keys given to Peter, I am not sure.

Cordially, Michael

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), July 30, 2004.

Actually this question has been done near to death on this forum. See the Catholic Top Level, and go to the Priests section.

"Interesting question! Perhaps this could help. A priest is called to be a father to the people of God. By definition, a father is male. That doesn't mean women can't be incredible leaders in the Church-- consider the Scriptural examples of Priscilla the evangelist, Huldah the prophet, Deborah the judge of all Israel, Chloe the deaconess, the virgin daughters of Phillip who were prophets. The Holy Spirit definitely does work through women! It is simply that, apparently, God our heavenly Father wishes us to have a father figure as a priest. In spite of the fact that He trained women to be disciples, Christ chose men as the twelve. By the way, this is why Pope John Paul II doesn't step down or resign the papacy in spite of bad health- -a father doesn't resign from the family! And "pope" means papa or father. Whether a pope could change this in the future with the power of the keys given to Peter, I am not sure. Cordially, Michael "

This is an extremely Catholic centric answer, done politely. What else would you expect on a Catholic forum? I think that a shift in the initial reasoning could have produced another result, but now it is encoded in the dogma and would be extremely hard to change. And basically few are even considering doing so. Married priests have a better chance of happening: there have been such before, and easing the burden of celibacy would likely generate a new surge in priests. But even that is controversial. And for that, again, see the files.

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), July 30, 2004.

"A shift in the initial reasoning" could not have produced "another result" on any doctrinal issue, for doctrine is not derived from reason. It is revealed by God. God reveals truth. "Another result" on a doctrinal issue would be untruth, and Jesus guaranteed that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to all truth, in spite of the reasoning of men. There are many things that might be different in the Church if there had been "a shift in the initial reasoning". But doctrine does not fall into that category.

Yes, more married priests in the Latin Rite (there are already some) has a much better chance of becoming a reality than women priests, since such a change is possible while women priests are impossible. However, it is unlikely that we will see that change in the forseeable future.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 30, 2004.

Dear Sean,

I think I understand what you mean about the intitial reasoning; it might have been that the primary representation of Christ is found embdied in "homo" (human), not "vir" (male). According to the Creed, Christ the Word was made "homo", and has assumed our nature and gained us righteousness as fully human in every way but without sin.

Yet as far as I can see, the Tradition both of Sacred Scripture and the early Fathers seems to be that the Lord chose men to be priests. And even if there might be wiggle room in that question *theoretically*, it is still a fact that our Holy Father has pronounced definitively on the issue for the forseeable future. I agree with Paul's comment that Divine Revelation trumps reason. It is important to respect the judgment of the Holy Father and move on to other questions, while continuing to respect and encourage the various other ministries women *have* been given. (If I were pope, I would consider choosing a woman as a lay cardinal. Cardinals have not always been priests!)

I also agree, Sean, that we would more likely see married priests, for there is a long tradition of that in the East.

Cordially, Michael

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), July 30, 2004.

Laurent said: If a woman can't be a priest , then why they can become a nun ??

Hi Laurent. The point is that God appointed different roles for men and women. Women are called to share in one of the roles that Mary embodied uniquely, as both virgin and mother. Becoming a nun or remaining single, or becoming a mother are different ways for women to fulfill those roles, as set for them by God.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), July 30, 2004.

Yes, and there are religious orders (as opposed to ordained clergy) for men just as there are for women. The men called to such orders are usually known as "religious brothers". The women are known as "religious sisters", or sometimes "nuns". Both of these vocations are completely distinct from the priesthood.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), July 30, 2004.

Women Can be priets - all the people here are answering with utterly sexist views of the church - the fact stands that the first person Jesus told about Him being God's Son was a woman, and she was the person who spread the Word among her village. In the first book of the Bible it says that 'all humans at the same time and all are in the image of God'. Jesus could have come to earth any way He wished, but He chose to be born from a Woman, rather than just become a fully grown man. Mary Magdelene was the first person to see Jesus after he was resurrected. Paul once said, 'Through faith...all of you are God's children...so there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles, slaves and free, men and women, you are all equal in Christ Jesus'. Before the 4th Century AD women were working as priests anyway, but the Pope said that they couldn't give bread and wine to the church any more, and on 2 headstones there is a womans name and then is says - 'Priest'.

I hope your view of women has changed but feel free to contact me if you are a sexist person and you don't agree with anything I say at all - I would love to hear from you. Anyone can contact me on my e- mail address - ratstar_fuzziness@hotmail.com

-- Katherine Stevens (ratstar_fuzziness@hotmail.com), August 30, 2004.

"all the people here are answering with utterly sexist views of the church"

A: Are you saying that God is sexist, having chosen men to be Apostles and priests, 12 times out of 12? It isn't sexist to recognize differences in form and function between men and women. It is androgynous and unrealistic to fail to do so.

"the fact stands that the first person Jesus told about Him being God's Son was a woman, and she was the person who spread the Word among her village."

A: She wasn't the first person he told, not that it matters; but in any case the story shows that women can be evangelists, just not priests, which is just what the Church teaches.

"In the first book of the Bible it says that 'all humans at the same time and all are in the image of God'."

A: It sure does. Men and women are all made in the image of God, in spite of the obvious differences between them, and in spite of the different roles God has called them to play.

"Jesus could have come to earth any way He wished, but He chose to be born from a Woman, rather than just become a fully grown man."

A: Yes. But even His mother, the most highly honored person in the history of the world, was not chosen by Him as a priest. So how does that relate to the subject at hand?

"Mary Magdelene was the first person to see Jesus after he was resurrected."

A: True. But she wasn't a priest, so how does that fact relate to the subject at hand?

"Paul once said, 'Through faith...all of you are God's children...so there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles, slaves and free, men and women, you are all equal in Christ Jesus'."

A: Yes, but equal does not mean identical. Men and women, while completely equal, are still very different from each other, biologically, emotionally, and functionally, and the roles assigned to them by God are also different. Why does this make them any less equal? If I'm a lieutenant and have two sergeants under me, I might assign them to two completely different areas of responsibility. But they are still both sergeants, completely equal, just assigned to different jobs.

"Before the 4th Century AD women were working as priests anyway, but the Pope said that they couldn't give bread and wine to the church any more"

A: No. They were not. No woman has ever been ordained a priestess in the Church Christ founded. Women and men were both allowed to serve as assistants to the Apostles, a non-ordained position which unfortunately is often translated into english as "deacon" and "deaconess", but which is not comparable to the ordained deaconate of today's Church.

"and on 2 headstones there is a womans name and then is says - 'Priest'"

A: Really! I'd like to see that, or at least read about it. Could you provide me with an authoritative reference?

"I hope your view of women has changed but feel free to contact me if you are a sexist person and you don't agree with anything I say at all"

A: I am not a sexist person, but I do disagree with virtually everything you said. You don't seem to know what "sexist" actually means. You do appear to be a victim of anti-Christian, militant feminist propaganda. My view of women has not changed and hopefully will not change, as I already consider men and women completely equal in all respects. But I will never consider them identical. To do so would be ludicrous, and an insult to both.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 30, 2004.

Dear Fuzzy Rat (aka Katherine)

I would be interested to know your undertanding of the sacramentality of Holy Orders. I would be grateful if you could explain.

Hugh

-- Hugh (hugh@inspired.com), August 31, 2004.

There were ordained Deaconesses in the Eastern Church in early centuries but, as far as we can tell, their main function was to assist at the baptism of women.

The gravestones that Katherine refers to use the Greek word "presbytera." Which is still used today - for the wife of a priest.

Hope that's helpful.

-- Fr. Mike Skrocki, JCD (cand) (abounamike@aol.com), September 01, 2004.