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-- Groundflyer (jaxon_groundflyer@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004

Answers

Nobody. God has always existed. God made the universe and everything and everyone in it.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), August 04, 2004.

Or else the universe has always existed, skipping the middleman.

-- Groundflyer (jaxon_groundflyer@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

Virtually all modern cosmologists agree that the universe had a definite beginning. Someone or something must have caused it to begin and continue to exist. And even if you think the universe has always existed, haven't you ever asked WHY it exists?

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), August 04, 2004.

The two problems incountered in the Universe always existed idea are below.

1: If you can imagien that the Universe always existed, why is it such a challenge to beleive God always existed? Likewise, if you bneleive the Universe alwas existed, why do you think its ridicuklous to beleive that about God?

2: The Universe did NOT always exist, as anyone with access to Phsyics books that discuss Big Bang theory will attest...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), August 04, 2004.

You can't create something out of nothing. Either the universe has always been here, or it was never here.

I ask you the same question. If you can easily believe that God has always existed, why is it so hard to believe that the universe has. The only difference is one theory states that a giant being created everything out of nothing and the other theory states that it has always just been there. It all comes down to logic.

-- Groundflyer (jaxon_groundflyer@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

You can't create something out of nothing. Either the universe has always been here, or it was never here.

{I cannot create soemthign of nothing, however,at soem pint, this had to happen, and indeed, quantum Mechanics shows particles can spontaneously appear, they never actuallise though...}-Zarove

I ask you the same question. If you can easily believe that God has always existed, why is it so hard to believe that the universe has.

{Because we know it didnt. Again, d you not know modern hsyics? Steady State theory was abandonded 60 years ago, and virtually all in the feild agree with the idea that the Universe had a beginning. Should I reject that on the basis that you dot wan tot beleive in God?}-Zarove

The only difference is one theory states that a giant being created everything out of nothing and the other theory states that it has always just been there. It all comes down to logic.

{Logic? God sint "A Giant being". Thats moronic and bad theology. Gid is seen as a spirit, which is not relaly possessed of size at all. Likewise, why is it mofre logical to assume the Universe always existed? I mean, relaly, we know it DID NOT since we find traces of the Big bang...

Logic dictate, form the simpel observation made by Hubble, that the Univers eis expanding and at oen time was smaller, and before that was as small as the smallest quantum particle. Before that we ar euncertain, but we do beleive in phsyics that this particle had an origin, said origin is unknown.

Again, it is less logical to asusme the Universe was always here, simpley because the sicnece tells of otherwise.

And again, od is not sem guant being.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), August 04, 2004.

"Or else the universe has always existed, skipping the middleman."

A: That idea violates the most elementary and essential principles of both science and logic. The most basic tenet of science is causality. When something occurs in the material world, scientists immediately start investigating WHAT was the cause of the occurence. They don't sit down and debate whether or not there WAS a cause. An event observed means a cause responsible. In science, nothing happens without a cause, and nothing exists without coming into existence, that is without an origin in time and space. The idea of an eternal universe - eternal matter and energy - is pure science fiction. In the real world nothing material exists unless it came into existence.

"You can't create something out of nothing."

A: Exactly! YOU can't create something out of nothing. Scientists cannot create something out of nothing. No force in the material universe can create something out of nothing. Yet the universe exists; therefore it must have come into existence. And since the universe includes the sum total of all existing matter and energy as well as time itself, logic clearly demands that before the universe came into existence matter, energy and time did not exist. Therefore the one responsible for the intial appearance of matter, energy and time must logically have been one who exists totally outside of matter, energy and time. That one has revealed Himself as God.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 04, 2004.

I retract all statements I have made in this topic. I apologize for any problems I have caused, but I am also glad that I posted this initially for I have met a new friend.

-- Groundflyer (jaxon_groundflyer@hotmail.com), August 04, 2004.

It was a very dark and cold time in my life when I came to the very same conclusion about God that you have made, Paul M. God has to be outside the universe in order to have created everything that is in the universe. I think that motion had an important part just before the universe came to be. Of course, all of us are just mortals and can never realize all that God has created or how He created it. I can only hope that everything will be revealed to us by God and we will say, "Of course!".

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 05, 2004.

Rod, I think it'll take eternity for us to figure out God 8-)

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), August 05, 2004.

No need for an apology Groundflyer; you haven't caused any "problems". I only wish everyone who asks questions here was as polite as you. I'm glad you've learnt something; so have I.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), August 05, 2004.

I don't think "everything" will be revealed to us by God because even then we will be finite and limited and He will be infinite. He could not reveal "everything" to us because our limited human minds even then would not have the capacity to comprehend everything. Besides, if God revealed everything to us, we would know as much as He knows and that is unthinkable. However, I do believe that God will reveal to us many things that we are unaware of or do not understand while on earth. He will reveal "everything" we need to know and are capable of comprehending.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), August 05, 2004.

A key to these mysteries is given us by Christ's Holy Church. Because she is the work of God Himself, we are called in faith to believe her.

In our Creed we are told that in the beginning, God created all that is seen and unseen.

A mere man- made theology would never place much importance in what is NOT seen. False theology has no reason to wonder at all about unseen truths. What is seen is true, nothing else is real. But we are told in divine revelation that not only has He made all that we can see.

God made much more which no one sees. The unseen is a mystery, just as God was a complete mystery until He chose to reveal Himself to us. He did it for love.

We therefore KNOW: there is an unseen part of Creation. That revelation alone makes it logical to believe in a Creation authored entirely by One God. But foolish men only allow themselves to call real what they can see. A presumptuous and absurd idea.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), August 05, 2004.