Late Abortion Care for Fetal Anomaly

Remembrances and Special Requests

Many patients request a remembrance of their baby to take home with them. The following lists items and services that some of our previous patients have found helpful in their emotional recovery. Everyone approaches this experience with their own unique emotional, spiritual, and cultural background. There is not right way or wrong way, just "your way". Once the process of healing has begun, you may want to consider a token of the precious time you and your baby had together. All of these features of our program will be discusssed with you while you are with us:

Viewing your baby after delivery Holding your baby after delivery Photographs of your baby Baptism of your baby, with or without a certificate Footprints and handprints of your baby Certificate of premature miscarriage Cremation An urn for ashes Arrangement of burial in either Wichita or your home state Arrangement of amniocentesis/autopsy Medical photographsand x-rays for your health care professional Grief is a very complex emotion which is expressed in many different ways. We will attempt to accommodate your individual requests to the very best of our abilities.

Counseling & Consultation | Procedure Remembrances & Special Requests Chaplaincy Program

Executive Summary for Fetal Indication Termination of Pregnancy Program Internet Support & Discussion Group --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WOMEN'S HEALTH CARE SERVICES, P.A. 5107 East Kellogg Wichita, Kansas USA 67218 316-684-5108 800-882-0488 Toll Free in US 316-684-0052 Fax

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-- - (David@excite.com), September 05, 2004

Answers

You can kill the baby and than have the chaplain baptise the baby, and have a picture.

-- - (David@excite.com), September 05, 2004.

David, they seem to be talking about spontaneous abortion, not deliberately procured abortion. Even if it were the latter, they obviously regard the baby as a real live human being who should be baptized, mourned and commemorated, so they are way ahead of those who claim a fetus is “just a blob of jelly” or “part of the mother’s body” who can be killed without compunction.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 05, 2004.

Steve,

"..David, they seem to be talking about spontaneous abortion, not deliberately procured abortion. Even if it were the latter, they obviously regard the baby as a real live human..."

Steve have a look for yourself. I wouldn't of posted it if it was talking of spontanious abortion. One of these days you will start to believe me.

http://www.drtiller.com If you can post a link please do for me?

God bless you

-- - (David@excite.com), September 05, 2004.

Steve,

Read the "Remembrances and special requests".Can you believe this scumb bag murderer? This is what kerry and edwards support.

-- - (David@excite.com), September 05, 2004.

"..Even if it were the latter, they obviously regard the baby as a real live human being who should be baptized, mourned and commemorated, so they are way ahead of those who claim a fetus is “just a blob of jelly” or “part of the mother’s body” who can be killed without compunction. "

Steve, what good is baptising a dead baby that you just murdered? Its kind of "spitting" right in Gods face I would say wouldn't you?

Think abot the evil of this? Taking pictures of an aborted baby and taking fingerprints and foot prints. How can you say their a head of their time?

-- - (David@excite.com), September 05, 2004.

Yes you’re right David. I should have checked the website before replying. But I wasn't disbelieving you. The language they use in your original post does make it sound like it’s not induced abortion. They seem to be trying to have it both ways. They admit they’re killing a real live human being. But then they offer to provide a “certificate of premature miscarriage” – I guess that comes in handy for their legal protection.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 05, 2004.

Slow down, David. My last post above was in reply to the first of your three posts in a row. I did not say they are “ahead of their time”. I said they’re ahead of those who claim a fetus isn’t even a live human being. I know your view is that anyone who’s not 100% right is 100% wrong, but I think that to admit that you are actually killing a live human being is the first step in admitting that this is wrong. It’s better than being in total denial. And yes I do know that a sin is more serious if you know exactly what you’re doing than if you are ignorant about its exact nature. My point is that once they have conceded the first step that it is actually killing a human being, then we can start trying to convince them it’s wrong.

And don’t tell me that’s not necessary, that we only have to make abortion illegal and everything will be hunky-dory. We have to convince people it’s morally wrong, or it will continue illicitly.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 05, 2004.

Steve,

This guy didn't take the first step in the right direction. You couldn't be farther from the truth. Read a little about him from a article I found. Can you post the link( his website) for me, please?

Hitler In Wichita

Day after day, they walk around the abortuary. They watch women enter the facility as though they were going in for delivery. They are in a sense....they'll be delivering a dead baby. Abortionist Tiller (Tiller the Killer), specializes in killing full term babies. For whatever reason, as their due date draws near, women decide to end the lives of their precious pre-born children and Abortionist Tiller is more than happy to accommodate. Although full term abortions are legal in America, very few abortionists will perform them. Most abortionist's consciences' won't allow them to execute children that are ready to be born. Therefore, abortionist Tiller is making a 'killing' flying in all of the full-termers to "help" them in their time of need.

According to a former employee of Tiller's, Luhra Tivis; he checks them in to a motel across the street for a 3 to 5 day stay. On day one, he collects the money (up to $3,500) and injects the baby's heart with a "foeticidal agent", which results in death for the baby. For the next two days, he inserts lamanaria packs (seaweed sticks) into the cervix of the woman (which absorbs her body fluids and expands like a sponge) to cause her cervix to dilate. He then administers labor-inducing drugs. On the third or fourth day labor begins. All of the women (12 women per group / 2 groups per week) are then taken to a room in the basement where they give birth to their dead babies.

Abortionist Tiller has never had a "disposal problem" either. 20 to 24 late term babies and 20 to 30 first trimester babies a week are incinerated on the west end of his property. Now try to imagine yourself walking around and around that mill, seeing the smoke billowing out from the stack, and smelling the awful stench of burning flesh. That is exactly what the Wichita-Defenders-of-Life have to do. Walking and praying, walking and praying, day after day after day.

One tends to imagine that they are standing at the gates of Auschwitz or Triblinca in Nazi Germany. Is there any difference in what Tiller is doing, and what Hitler did? At best, a minor one. And that is the age difference of those being led away to the ovens. They couldn't walk, they couldn't talk, they couldn't feed or defend themselves; but neither could the elderly and the infirm that met their demise at the hands of Hitler (before the Jews). In addition, Hitler didn't make obscene profits from his grisly deeds.

While no one condones the actions of Rachelle Shannon, her frustrations are understandable: 1 baby every 20 seconds, 3 per minute, 180 per hour, 4320 per day, 30,240 per week, 1,572,480 per year, 31,449,600 in America since Roe vs. Wade (1973), have been painfully slaughtered by Tillers from sea to shining sea.

And the killing continues, for the day after she shot Abortionist Tiller in the arms (which set the pro-life movement back 10 years), he was back at his mill.......

KILLING CHILDREN FOR PROFIT

This is a very, very evil educated demon.

-- - (David@excite.com), September 05, 2004.

He’s not a demon, David, he’s a man who does evil things. And probably he will keep on doing them. But it so often happens that people have to reach the depths of depravity before they realize the error of their ways. Some M.D.’s who were formerly enthusiastic abortionists are now pro-lifers. Occasionally the greatest sinners become the greatest saints. And even in this dismal scene I see a sign of hope.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 05, 2004.

There is not right way or wrong way, just "your way"

if these are not the words of satan, i dont know what is...

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), September 06, 2004.

In that case Paul, I’d say over half the US population is mouthing the words of Satan – that everything is either “right for me”, or “wrong for me”; that what’s “wrong for you” could well be “right for me”; that (almost) nothing is ever simply “right” or “wrong”. That doesn't mean they all actually ARE Satan.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 06, 2004.

And in fairness to Tiller, it is not the decision to have an abortion which he is talking about (he takes that as a given) it’s the question of which is the way to “emotional recovery” after the abortion.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 06, 2004.

"..And even in this dismal scene I see a sign of hope. "

What kind of hope was there for baby Sarah Steve? Only men like you, John Kerry, Edwards etc... would put the "spin" on Killer Tiller, and say you see "hope".

Carhart said at least once a month, an entire fetus is expelled from the mother during a D&E he is performing. "The fetuses are alive at the time of delivery," he said. There is a heartbeat "very frequently."

Carhart - one of Tiller's abortionists - admits that babies frequently are born alive during abortions. THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, April 1, 2004, "Doctor: Law Would Outlaw Many Abortions"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

At least one baby has survived an attempted abortion at Tiller's clinic. "Baby Sarah" survived and was later adopted. She lived a few short years.

Instead of injecting the lethal drug into Baby Sarah's heart, Tiller injected it into the side of her head. This left her alive but blind. Baby Sarah was born at Wesley Medical Center where hospital staff left her to die. A day later she was still alive. A hospital employee took pity on her, and she was later adopted.

Baby Sarah died a few years later due to complications caused by the attempted abortion.

It is reasonable to believe that Tiller would have killed Baby Sarah after birth if the mother had gone to his clinic rather than to the emergency room. It's reasonable to believe that babies have been born alive within the walls of Tiller's clinic compound. It's reasonable to believe that George Tiller would have no more compassion on a living born baby than he has on living preborn babies.

SOURCES:

http://www.calright2life.org/Sarahbrown.htm

-- - (David@excite.com), September 06, 2004.

In that case Paul, I’d say over half the US population is mouthing the words of Satan – that everything is either “right for me”, or “wrong for me”; that what’s “wrong for you” could well be “right for me”; that (almost) nothing is ever simply “right” or “wrong”. That doesn't mean they all actually ARE Satan.

Of course they aren't Satan himself, but they are following his plan. If they help lose souls to evil, they are just as culpable.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), September 06, 2004.

“Only men like you, John Kerry, Edwards etc... would put the "spin" on Killer Tiller, and say you see "hope"”. And men like St Paul. Faith, hope and love endure. The surest way for Satan to succeed is to give up a situation or a person as being beyond hope. Even in the most sinful man, while he still lives, there still remains hope that he may repent. The situation is terrible, I agree, but we must never despair of God’s power to redeem each and every person, even the most notorious sinner. To deny this hope would be to deny our faith.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 06, 2004.

For example:

"Former IRA bomber enters Dublin seminary

DUBLIN, Ireland, Sep. 07, 2004 (CNA) - Convicted IRA bombmaker Shane Paul O'Doherty began his formation for the Catholic priesthood at a Dublin seminary two weeks ago, reported the Belfast Telegraph.

O'Doherty had received 30 life sentences in the 1970s for his part as the chief bombmaker in Derry for an IRA letter-bombing campaign in Northern Ireland and Great Britain. He had once targeted Bishop Gerard Tickle with a letter-bomb hidden inside a Bible. However, that bomb failed to explode.

He turned his back on terrorism after being released in 1989, and he is now studying theology at St Patrick's College in Maynooth. If all goes well, he could be ordained within six years.

Fr. Enda Cunningham, a spokesman for St Patrick's, said they were aware of O'Doherty's terrorist background, but all of the proper procedures had been followed. According to Canon Law, murderers and those who attempt murder against the life of a priest or a bishop are not eligible candidates for the priesthood, unless proper dispensations are issued.

"The college's policy is to receive any student who has been recommended by his bishop," he told the Belfast Telegraph. "This has taken place in Shane's case and he arrived here two weeks ago with 20 other students to begin their training.""

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 08, 2004.

Steve,

Your latest "spin" is comparing "apples and french frys".

Hopefully you arn't suggesting that "killer tiller" is heading to the seminary soon? I didn't read anywhere that he stopped killing children did you? He's probably pulling out the brains of a child as I post this.

I'm sure if you look long enough you will find a article that says Adolph Hitler was a devout Catholic or some gay priest is a holy man and should be giving advice to the young semiarinas he sexually abuses.

May God bless the holy innocents.

-- - (David@excite.com), September 08, 2004.

It would seem that Kansas needs a 'no fault birth and automatic adoption' type law. California and many other places have such. When a lady gives birth, she can hand the baby over to a hospital instead of leaving it on a trash can and risking murder charges.

In this country there is a tension between woman's rights and baby rights. But oddly enough, both sides strongly support this kind of law, especially when the results of the law (as found in other places) are explained. Unlike the general opinion of this forum, I do not see the woman’s rights folks as anti-baby, even if that is the effect of their opinions and actions. I see them as pro-rights for themselves.

I am not happy with the procedure described (very late term abortion). And I would not be even if I was all-but-fanatical woman's rights side.

Yes, you will need to win the hearts and minds, or face an enraged group that will struggle as long as you have to win back the rights they once had. And actually, I have seen victory for the Baby rights side -- or at least a large move in the social opinion. But I believe that there is respect for both kinds of rights, and that respect will continue even if you win over the hearts and minds to the full extent that you will be able to do so. At the minimun, the right to sin ones own sin.

Now without this disclaimer I suspect I will trigger many long posts about baby's rights, about murder, and all. Hay, you have said them already. That is the Church's stance. That is this forum's stance. So please find what else I have been saying and comment on that. And ditto about the selfish nature of Woman's rights. I have heard, I know. I am presenting views that you should know: that not all people who disagree with you are always against you; that a good law can easily pass that would eliminate a major cause of this procedure; That the public sees the rights issue as a thing that needs balancing and will not likely go strongly on one side or the other.

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), September 08, 2004.

"I do not see the woman’s rights folks as anti-baby, even if that is the effect of their opinions and actions. I see them as pro-rights for themselves."

Sure. And someone who kidnaps a child for ransom isn't anti-child, just pro- money for themselves. Someone who robs a bank isn't anti-bank, just pro- self. Someone who commits adultery isn't anti-spouse. He just wants what is his "right". A politician who uses slander as a weapon against an opponent isn't really anti-opponent. He just wants a victory for himself. Most sin is committed in order to attain some real or perceived benefit to the sinner. We don't shoplift because we are anti-store, but because we want something for ourselves. We don't cheat on exams or on our income tax because we are anti-school or anti-government. Just pro-self. We don't lie because we are anti-truth, but because we either want to obtain something positive or avoid something negative for ourselves. Being "pro-rights" for oneself is fine, until we cross the line, ignoring or destroying the rights of others to attain what we see as our personal "right". As the saying goes, my right to punch ends where your nose begins. And when the ignored right of another is the most fundamental and sacred right of all, the inalienable right to life itself, it cannot be outweighed by any other right, real or imagined, that anyone else might claim.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 08, 2004.

David, I did not suggest that Tiller IS a good man or is about to become one. What I’m saying is you must not give up hope that he MAY repent some day.

Sean, I strongly believe that women must have equal rights with men. It is very sad that so many feminists have been misled into thinking that abortion on demand is some kind of achievement for women’s rights. Abortion on demand has led to widespread and rampant exploitation of women by men. Men now demand sexual intercourse at any time with any woman they choose. They tell women it’s their “right” (and hence also their responsibility) to prevent any child being conceived, and to kill any child who is conceived. Far from committing themselves to marrying the woman and bringing up the child, these “men” actually think they are being gentlemanly and generous if they offer to pay the killer’s fee. This is not “women’s liberation”. It is enslavement of women to men’s desires, with men refusing to accept any of the consequences of their behavior.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), September 08, 2004.

Paul, Yes, what you said is what I said in my final paragraph. Please read that paragraph carefully.

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), September 09, 2004.

So while we are all arguing morality and the like.. who would take care of all of these babies that would be born if abortions became illegal? I for one do not have the money necessary to care for hundreds of children do you? does the country? nope. Like it or not, we cannot prevent peopel who shouldn't be getting pregnant from getting pregnant and therefor if we make it illegal we'd have millions of orphans on our hands. better start adding on to your house and adding to your budget.

-- stacie peters (privatedavisgirl@yahoo.com), October 05, 2004.

Stacie,

Do you have a guilty concience because you killed a baby before? How old would your baby be now?

Murdering a innocent child is not the answer.

-- - (David@excite.com), October 05, 2004.

In fact, there are a great many families seeking children to adopt. Many such families have to go to Asia or other parts of the world to find a child. While this is true, it of course isn't really relevant to the abortion question. The fact that it is expensive to care for needy people is not justification for killing them. The fact that you might be inconvenienced in some way if certain people are allowed to live isn't justification for the commercial slaughter of millions. Since you are so concerned about the economics of the situation, and so ready to terminate people in order to address that concern, how would you feel about automatic execution of all prisoners with more than a 5 year sentence? Think of the tax dollars that would save! Especially if we held mass executions - one big room, turn on the gas, rake in the bucks. Oh wait, that system has already been tried, during an earlier holocaust; though the lives lost during that terrible time are nowhere near the number of lives lost in the abortion holocaust.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 05, 2004.

stacie, next time you look at a newborn baby i want you to consider exactly how much money it would take for you to murder that baby, because that's really all your arguement amounts to...

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 06, 2004.