what will happen to souls of atheist who is nice and good to Catholic?

-- james (james_how1@yahoo.com), October 13, 2004

Answers

It's hard to say... is he an anti-God person or someone who merely doesn't believe God exists?

I think Our Lord may have mercy on those who just don't know him from no fault of their own (mental problems, cultural blinkers, etc) especially if their actions in life were charitable and virtuous.

After all, The Apostle John did tell us that if a man can't love the brother whom he does see, he won't love God whom he can't. But if he does love.... the implication is, loving neighbor genuinely opens the heart to love of God.

So that's one point. The other is the necessity of faith for salvation...

Now it is possible for God to reveal himself to a soul at the last moment of life - indeed I have heard of this happening and the soul, having prepared itself with a lifetime of love accepting God's revelation.

So we can only hope for the best in that case but in the meanwhile seek to evangelize, to share our faith and love with such people now while it's still day time and they're still alive.

Typically those who already are able to love other people are more than able to believe in eternal Love.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 13, 2004.

I think the thread on Invincible Ignorance may help with your question. God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), October 13, 2004.

"It's hard to say... is he an anti-God person or someone who merely doesn't believe God exists?"

Obviously the altter, as an atheist by definition is someone who doesn't beleive in God, so therefore he couldn't be "anti-God". How can you be against something you don't beleive in? Wouldn't an anti- God person be more like a Satanist (in which case they probably would go to hell)?

-- Anti-bush (Comrade_bleh@hotmail.com), October 13, 2004.

Remember wayne Orgar? He claimed Jefferson , who was a good and noble man, was good and noble because he was not Chrisyain. Then he slammed The Christaisn for running the Indians off their land and for the slave trade in America.

The funny thing is, Jefforson owned slaves and Jefforson is the one who ran the indians off their land, not the CHristains.

Their are plnty of Atheists that hate God, they may SAY they dont beleive he exists, bu the hatred is evident.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 13, 2004.

I was a Catholic for 20 years, and then slowly became an atheist for about 25 years before returning to the Church 2 years ago or so.

I am not a better person morally or ethically now than I was for the 25 atheistic years. The only difference now is that "I Believe."

The Bible Protestants on the other board can explain verse by verse why I was damned before (and probably now "even more" as a Catholic) They can verse me to death with one hand tied behind their back and I respect their knowlege of scripture.

My opinion means little with regard to salvation. I am the same person today as I was 20 years ago. I just don't see why I am "saved" now just because I was lucky enough "not to die" 10 or 20 years ago.

God has perfect justice. God can weigh things out. I don't think anyone knows til the time comes.

I have nothing against atheists. I have a good number of friends that are non believers --- and hope we're all together one day.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 13, 2004.

"The Bible Protestants on the other board can explain verse by verse why I was damned before (and probably now "even more" as a Catholic) They can verse me to death with one hand tied behind their back and I respect their knowlege of scripture."

A: Actually, anyone who attempts to "explain" from Scripture why you are damned as a Catholic has neither knowledge of Scripture nor any claim to respect, other than the basic respect due any human being. Such absurd claims could only be the result of deep ignorance of Scripture and Christian history.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 13, 2004.

..I just don't see why I am "saved" now just because I was lucky enough"not to die" 10 or 20 years ago."

Who said you are saved now? Who said it was luck that you cane back to the Catholic Church? It could of been God answering your Mothers' prayers to bring you home. Praise God not say it was luck.

If you want to spend time in Heaven with your atheist buddies than maybe you should pray that they come home because it takes more than just being a nice guy. This life is the "real dance".

God bless you

-- - (David@excite.com), October 13, 2004.

Hi David

I never said I was saved. Actually I doubted it, especially because I just happened to live long enough to return to the Church. I don't believe that necessarily gets me in. I don't take anything for granted. Have a tendency for irony though.

Still would miss my atheist friends as some are nicer than my religious ones.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 13, 2004.

I am not a better person morally or ethically now than I was for the 25 atheistic years. The only difference now is that "I Believe."

Can you explain what you mean with the last sentence ??

-----------------------------------------------------------

Maybe a weird question to ask:

What I also don't understand , why is that some believers think that atheists , nihilists , non believers , etc .... , has no moral/morality , and that they even never can rest in peace ??

How or why's that ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), October 15, 2004.

What I also don't understand , why is that some believers think that atheists , nihilists , non believers , etc .... , has no moral/morality , and that they even never can rest in peace ??

it's the kantian perspective. One can do something which is objectively morally correct, however, if they do not act on the proper intention when completing the action (ie, they don't do it for the right reasons) then while it remains a correct action, it is still not a MORAL action. This is why a fundamental principle of salvation is BELIEF. good works without the proper motivation behind them are only correct actions, not moral actions.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 15, 2004.

This is why a fundamental principle of salvation is BELIEF. good works without the proper motivation behind them are only correct actions, not moral actions.

But isn't that what makes believers incapable of ever being truly moral? Isn't it better to do good simply for its own sake, rather than to do good in order to please the Big Boss in the sky?

It seems to me that the motive behind right conduct by one who has a strong belief in God, heaven, and hell cannot avoid being tainted by self-interest.

-- DC (skeptickk@yahoo.com), October 15, 2004.

Hi DC

You wrote: "But isn't that what makes believers incapable of ever being truly moral? Isn't it better to do good simply for its own sake, rather than to do good in order to please the Big Boss in the sky? "

That is a very interesting comment. In other words, what you are saying is the God is not the source of "good" morality. Therefore, there isn't a need to worship God as the Source. You, then, are making the "good" deed the source. You are then living in respect to "good" morals. Your worship is in a moral code of conduct, not God. Where does this desire or urge to do "good" come from? Is it purely a fabrication or manifestation of man's own designs? If so, would it be only a short step to worshipping Man as the source of "good"? I think that the reason atheists walk the earth is because they once had faith, but because they were unable to touch, hear, see, taste, and understand God they gave up and performed a funeral for Him. They lost hope and resorted to their own designs.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 15, 2004.

In other words, what you are saying is the God is not the source of "good" morality.

No, I'm not saying that at all, although I could say it given God's immoral behavior in the Old Testament.

What I am saying is that the belief in God precludes the believer from ever being a truly moral person. Why? Because every good thing that the believer does has a taint of self-interest to it; i.e., "I'm doing this because I know that God is watching and I hope that He will be pleased and save my sorry a_ _ from hell."

Even when I was a devout Catholic I could see that.

Your worship is in a moral code of conduct, not God.

I don't worship anything. And even back in the days when I worshipped God I sometimes wondered why that should matter to Him. Anyone who demands flattery must have an inferiority complex.

Let's face it. God is far too human to be anything other than a human invention.

Where does this desire or urge to do "good" come from?

I'll be damned if I know. :) (Just an expression of speech, mind you.)

Is it purely a fabrication or manifestation of man's own designs? If so, would it be only a short step to worshipping Man as the source of "good"?

Sounds like you have a serious need to worship something. :)

I think that the reason atheists walk the earth is because they once had faith, but because they were unable to touch, hear, see, taste, and understand God they gave up and performed a funeral for Him.

Well, God can always rise from the dead, right? So if God wants me to believe in Him He knows where to find me.

-- DC (skeptickk@yahoo.com), October 15, 2004.

In other words, what you are saying is the God is not the source of "good" morality.

No, I'm not saying that at all, although I could say it given God's immoral behavior in the Old Testament.

Immoral behavior? You are not including the other side of the coin. God's behavior was directly involved with that "immoral behavior" that man was engaged in. Would you not agree with mortal man taking measures in his own has if there was a moral decay in society? Should man just sit idle while his world decays?

What I am saying is that the belief in God precludes the believer from ever being a truly moral person. Why? Because every good thing that the believer does has a taint of self-interest to it; i.e., "I'm doing this because I know that God is watching and I hope that He will be pleased and save my sorry a_ _ from hell."

I'm sure that hypocrits can be found everywhere we look. an atheist will also do "good" for the common good of his neighbor/society. If he fails to keep a moral code, he will risk the tranqullity or calmness of his existence in his group of people. He too is playing the game of self-interest. But, true Christian believers have the willingness to sacrifice for the common good. It is a two-fold proposition for them: social needs and Salvation. Of course, I don't want to be damned to hell or earth. I don't want to make a living hell for me today in my existence either.

Even when I was a devout Catholic I could see that. Your worship is in a moral code of conduct, not God.

Well, we can argue about the cup that is half full or half empty. God is love. It would be useless to think that we do not have a moral code in our lives. It just so happens that I believe in God's moral codes, which involve love and forgiveness and sacrifice (to name a few).

I don't worship anything. And even back in the days when I worshipped God I sometimes wondered why that should matter to Him. Anyone who demands flattery must have an inferiority complex.

Every human worships something to some degree--power, money, fame, lust, you name it. You probably worship life itself or the feeling of autonomy without the hassles of some divine being hovering our everyday lives. "Inferiority complex"? Could it be that you are projecting human characteristics onto God? Why would you want to make God out to be like us mortal humans? Perhaps is you could see Him as outside and beyond our limited imaginations, you may feel awe knowing that such a Divine Being exists and as a result everything we experience comes from Him. This could be why atheists become disillusioned with God; they make Him at to be just an ordinary human.

Let's face it. God is far too human to be anything other than a human invention.

I just answered to that assertion above. Of course, that would be true, if that were really true. We can't make the attempt to put God in a box. When we start doing that, everthing falls apart.

Where does this desire or urge to do "good" come from?

I'll be damned if I know. :) (Just an expression of speech, mind you.)

Noumena! That's another point atheists use to prove that God does not exist. Must everthing be tangible in order for you to believe? If you can experience love, yet you cannot prove it, why can't you accept God's existence?

Is it purely a fabrication or manifestation of man's own designs? If so, would it be only a short step to worshipping Man as the source of "good"?

Sounds like you have a serious need to worship something. :)

Well, let me turn you table. Sounds like you have a serious need to find proof of God's existence. Do you actually believe that your existence in this universe is a result of some ridiculous accident involving some random chain of events in the cosmos? Are you no better than some helter-skeltered particle run amuck? Your capacity to think, dream, and discern is the most powerful event in this universe. Our thoughts have the power to create those tangibles, which can destroy planets or designs beauty. How is that arbitrary? How is that proof of a fatalistic purpose? How can that prove chaos?

I think that the reason atheists walk the earth is because they once had faith, but because they were unable to touch, hear, see, taste, and understand God they gave up and performed a funeral for Him.

Well, God can always rise from the dead, right? So if God wants me to believe in Him He knows where to find me.

You've provided textual proof of what I've tried to say. You have a serious desire to find God. You are in the right directions, but your steps are heavy; walk lightly. Those proofs will come to you in time. BTW, He has already found you. It isn't God who is looking for you. It is you who is looking for God. There are many ways to finally see Him. Some ways are not always to our liking.

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 15, 2004.

DC said: I don't worship anything. And even back in the days when I worshipped God I sometimes wondered why that should matter to Him. Anyone who demands flattery must have an inferiority complex.

God does not need flatter or our worship. He is entirely Holy and Glorious all on His own. The need lies with us humans. God knows that when people have no one to worship, they get caught up in their own pride and become like their own gods. We need to worship God because as humans, that's part of who we are.

God made Himself known to us in order to establish moral standards, and so that we could know that He is there to provide for us and guide us so that our lives will be most fulfilling. He also desires to be in a relationship with us, because He knows that we all have a longing to know our Creator.

God does not need our worship. His existence is eternal, so before humans were created, He still existed as God, without our worship. The ones who have needs are us humans -- the need to worship God.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), October 15, 2004.

To Laurent

I meant that even as an atheist I lead (to the best of my ability,) a moral and ethically sound life. I believe atheists can be good moral and ethical people, no doubt in my mind. The only difference with me now, is that I have come back to the Church. I did not do it for fear of damnation; I did it because it seemed right to me.

I have some problems with the idea of "worship, faith and belief" only in itself as an end for personal salvation. It seems selfish--- if thats the only reason for it.

I question my reasons for doing almost everything, always have. Coming back tothe Church can't for me be explained with a "logical proof." "Reason" is not helpful to me with regard to the subject of faith and belief in God.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 15, 2004.

The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.........
There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard.
Their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.

Psalm 19: I...4

If someone doesn't believe in God, I wonder how they can claim invincible ignorance.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), October 15, 2004.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities¡Xhis eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made so that men are without excuse. " (Romans 1: 20)

The Athiest's good works cannot save Him.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), October 15, 2004.

Oliver

I was a bit offened by your last post but knowing you over the years- --its just me.

I just take it back. When I was an atheist I had the biggest problem with "bible christians."

I never in general ran into problematic Catholics. Catholics didn't prosolitize, and as a Catholic athiest--- neither did I.

However---Even as an atheist I would defened Catholic teaching if I thought it was misrepresented. As long as I didn't have to defend the idea of God.

but---

I could almost be angry with you for your last post. Only because "I'm" small minded.

My mother is in a terrible fix, an old Catholic on the verge of losing her faith when she needs it the most. She has been waiting for me to get back, ----I am to the best of my ability *back* but certainly not that good. (to the Church)

She has breast cancer for the past 5 years . She had the same conversation with her mother before her mother died. What do you think? She asked me.

I don't lie- I said we'll find out. She is way better than me. Rosarey after Rosary---- but for all you Protestants,----that is normal Catholic practice, She knows she isn't Worshiping Mary. She just wants all the help she can get.

None of this surprises me because she is as smart as a whip. She is glad I'm Catholic again, but has major doubts about her own faith, I am only half good--- I have that (unfortunatally) cafateria thing going on. Do what you can---as Bing would say----

"Say one for me." Any One ! Go ahead it can't hurt. If its all true--- I could use it now. I am happy to take Protesteant prayers as I trust them just fine.

She knows whats going on and if its all true I could use a few prayers.

This is worse I've been through. --- Which has been about nothing. I've been very lucky. As I mentioned to David on a previous post. I'm a luckey man. THose inclined. Give me a prayer or two. I'm not extpecting much.

Pessamist!

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 15, 2004.

By the Way DC

I think you will know what I mean.

If you want to say one for my mom it will be much appreciated. I'd do the same for yours.

It doesn't have to be a regualar prayer. AS an atheist- Catholic, I still had my way to do what ever it was I did. Which was sort of, for me trying to send out a possitive vive. I'll take it!

I am a Catholic now. But I remember the difference and can't hold anything against your view.

Please--- all of you regular Catholics, Don't give me Hell for talking to some of my compatiates.

We are so close, we may be heart beats away from each other. At one time, I was one thread away from becoming Catholic again.

This is a good place to talk about it. But not a place to decide,

-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), October 15, 2004.

Jim, I will pray for you and your mother. Try the Divine Mercy Chaplet, it is wonderful.

Oliver, I made the reference to invincible ignorance only to show what the Catholic Church teaches regarding this subject. For this "atheist," that is really his/her only chance. But perhaps the person is simply confused, searching for truth and calls themself atheist because they just aren't sure. Surely I am not saying that invincible ignorance means all so-called "atheists" can be saved, but simply that this is their only chance.

Let's think about a hypothetical situation for a moment. Let's say that you and I are both wrong about our religious beliefs, and the Mormons are the ones who are right (NOTE: I am not saying Mormons are right). Let's say we both seek to serve God fervently our entire lives, while retaining our current religious beliefs and our faith in Christ. In the hypothetical situation, we both die with repentant hearts. Do you think that if we are wrong, God would send us to hell, because we just didn't know any better? A similar scenario could apply to infant children or mentally handicapped people who are incapable of understanding salvation.

God's grace involves both justice and mercy. God understands that sometimes we just don't get things, and He knows our hearts. For those who are His faithful servants, always seeking to follow Him and seeking His truth, I believe that God will show them the mercy of attaining salvation in heaven. This is the heart of the belief in "invincible ignorance" -- a sincere desire to follow God, but perhaps not understanding what that might mean.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), October 16, 2004.

THank You Emily.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 16, 2004.

Jim thank you for your support on a previous thread, you were far too kind, hardly a “ young man” though, the big 30 beckons next year. ... time flies eh. Sorry for the delay in reply its all “money money money” for me, Ive got the American dream (disease?) thing going, but I swing between a missionary and a mercenary so there may be hope for me yet.

Again I find myself relating to your words, to me we all must just try and do the best with the cards placed in front of us, some of us are far more privileged than others and make no mistake, God expects far more of us. Men judge other men by their actions, God judges men on the moral choices they make. Im quite open to the fact that we as believers may have it all horribly wrong! I don’t think so, but if I’m honest, it has to be possibility, my world doesn’t collapse around me admitting that fact.

Your frank approach is refreshing, a direct contrast to the professed certainty of some, I guess Im very similar in that regard. Perhaps it’s a weakness of faith, or more likely just simple honesty. The thing is we are all full of doubts, fears and questions, we are all hopelessly pretending to be like Christ, all failing miserably, all falling far short of perfection.

We must remember the teaching of our Church is that that “wilfulness” of non believers in trying to shut out God is very hard to assess, and the Church clearly teaches that some Catholics play a role in advancing the cause of atheism and damaging the cause of the Church, in the way they bear witness to God through their attitudes, words and behaviour . The greatest of sins is pride, far far greater than most of the sins the self-righteous often judge atheists on. When we sin against charity we hurt not only our fellow man, but God and damage our souls immeasurably more than any sin of the flesh. When we are all naked before God on judgement day, those considered “first”, may very well be “last” in line and vice versa.

Ill keep you and your Mum in my thoughts and (all too occasional) prayers and don’t be too hard on yourself mate!

Hi Paul Im interested in your comment on Kants influence (“kantian perspective”) as I guess you realise philosophy is something that utterly confuses and enthrals me at the same time.

I understand you are studying a philosophy and religion a paper and would be interested in any further thoughts you or your classmates/lecturers have on Kant and his relationship to catholic moral theology.

I understand what Kant was trying to do in establishing a rational reason for absolute moral commands, that must be obeyed without exception ( ie “the categorical imperative”- act only according a rule that could be followed by all people all the time). It’s a fascinating idea, the concept that we obey say, the Ten Commandments not merely because Gods word commands it and not to do so is immoral but because it is also irrational.

Yet (how I love this little word!),Kant seems to assume that although we would be morally responsible for any bad consequences of breaking a moral absolute rule we would not be similarly responsible for bad consequences of obeying a moral absolute. It is a very pessimistic view of what we can know, clearly we cannot predict the future however the likely consequences of an action can often be known with some certainty. If I was confronted with someone whom I knew wanted to kill an innocent person, I would be prepared to lie to protect that person.

That to me is not immoral, it is both moral and the correct course of action. Kant would disagree and claim I acted in an immoral way somehow having me “blameless” if bad consequences occurred as I have done my “duty”.

Many moral philosophers point out that whenever we have “absolute moral rules” there is the possibility that they may come into conflict thus, they claim , making Kants theory of absolute moral rules impossible to maintain.

I have read parts of his thoughts where he attempts to demolish all intellectual proofs of Gods existence, he believes that although pure reason will lead us to God it cannot itself prove Gods reality- although he makes it clear has other reasons for believing in the existence of God. Does the Church agree with Kant that were there no rational beings the moral dimension of the world would simply disappear? Was Kant a Catholic? What I really wish to learn is how deeply was the Church influenced by Kants thoughts and where the Church departs from his morality- based on respect for persons?

Peace!

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), October 27, 2004.