At my Church, the congregation holds hands during the Our Father.

I was told that it was ok as long as they hold hands, but some who stand alone put their hands in the air simulating how the priest holds his hands up. I was told that holding hands up in the air is strictly an act of the priest. Is this true? Should we be teaching in our parish that if you are by yourself or on the end of a pew, do not hold your hand in the air?

-- W (W@WWW.com), October 19, 2004

Answers

To the top my hand waves, and elevates this thread!

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 19, 2004.

While I don't spend much time thinking about this, growing up we folded our hands during the "Our Father." This is what I do today and will continue to do.

But I have noticed a lot of people holding hands or simply standing with hands up like the priest. Its fine with me, but seems to be more a more recent phenomenon. I guess a lot can happen during a 20+ year absence.

Is there an important prescribed way "The Our Father" should be done? I'm sure my simple way is OK because thats how everyone did it years ago. Never saw the hands elevated in the congregation "back in the day."

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), October 19, 2004.

as i understand it, holding hands during the our father is not a vatican sanctioned action and has been noted as such. i mean, Paul M, correct me if i'm wrong, but the proper action during the "Our Father" is to simply fold your hands in prayer...

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 19, 2004.

For some reason a recent fad has developed among some people (particularly it seems among charismatic types and certain ethnic groups) while saying the Our Father to hold their hands out palms upward as the priest does (the orantes posture). They seem to think this shows how intensely they are praying. I wouldn't suggest this is a sin or anything, but it is liturgically incorrect. It is a posture which should be used by the priest only, to invite the congregation to pray.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), October 19, 2004.

We hold hands. I think they have been doing it that way for years. I have only recently began a conversion, but I went to Mass alot with my best friend as a kid and I remember them holding hands then. Gosh, I have been married for 16 years, so it has to have been more than 20 or so years when I used to go with them all the time. That doesn't sound like a real new practice to me. But then again I am fairly new to all this, so what do I know?

How has everyone been? I hope ya'll all avoid the terrible flu this year! God bless!

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), October 19, 2004.

It's definately not a sin, but it's also not a proper rubric of the latine rite of the Catholic Church. Yes, it's been done by Northern Europeans and Americans for the last 20 years. It was started by "liturgists" in the heady days after Vatican II when lots of people experimented with the Mass largely without approval.

They just began doing something - and it became tradition. That's how altar girls and other things got started...people just started doing it, the local bishops didn't say anything, and it became a habit.

In other words, there wasn't some official synod, the theologians and bishops didn't sit down prayerfully reflect on the idea, kick around some deep theological implications of the idea and then test it here or there to see if it was good or not and then implement it on the diocesan or national level.... it just started happening.

Kind of like people who kneel or prostrate themselves prior to receiving communion on the tongue - it's just a pious "tradition" that catches on.

I'm sure (actually I'm positive) that everyone doing that has good intention and it's done as a help for their reverence and prayer. So again I don't think it's a question of mean spiritedness or disobedience or sin. Now if the local bishops positively tell people not to do this, that's a different matter. We ought to obey our bishops in liturgical questions (so long as the Bishop himself is in union with the Pope).

Having studied in Rome and attended Masses around the world I can vouch for the fact that these spontaneous lay "traditions" aren't in the official rubrics of the Latin rite liturgy. Insofar as the rite is a public community act it requires us to pay attention and behave with decorum according to the rules.

BUT In all things Charity... Please don't allow these differences to lead to heated arguments or disagreements. In the Mass we ought to be openning our hearts and minds to the Lord and growing in compassion and love for each other. If your neighbor grabs your hands, you can either hold theirs or respectfully clasp your two together and close your eyes...but them give them a nice shake and smile at the sign of peace... and then speak with them afterwards or invite them out to brunch.

Wouldn't that be a revolutionary idea? Invite your pew mate to your home after Mass - complete strangers that they are - but united in Faith and communion with Our Lord!

Then perhaps gently we can help them see what's proper. But be prudent as the devil is always trying to stir us into controversy and contention and disagreement over trifles.

Let's all invite a fellow Catholic family into our homes or out to brunch this Sunday (alert the spouse first of course).

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 20, 2004.

Very well said Joe.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), October 20, 2004.

Surely all that matters is that any action in worship and prayer is done in a state of 'in Spirit and in Truth'.

God looks at the state of ones heart not the position of ones body. Why does every little detail and nuance need to be so regulated or Vatican sanctioned?

Relax and let God be God in your life - if the joy that ensues makes you lift up your hands or reach out to a fellow worshipper so be it.

-- Sharon (sharon.guy@ntu.ac.uk), October 22, 2004.

The only issue with Vatican mandated rubrics is this: liturgy is a PUBLIC activity of the whole body- not just a whilly nilly expression of our subjective tastes and feelings.

So we need to have a balance between what "the Church" expresses and believes and what church-goers do.

For Catholics, we believe that the Church's job is to bring Christ's Gospel - "the word and way" to all people. Now the word is the Old and New Testaments, which the Church teaches people through the liturgy of the word... to do so in a uniform way, the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church calls for each Mass to have readings from the Old Testament, a Psalm and the Gospel. On Sunday the readings include one of the Epistles.

Now we ought to understand WHY this is so... the Faith, the Truth that Christ commanded his apostles to teach the world comes to us from all the words and deeds and desires God has revealed throughout time to his choosen people.... so the Old and New Testaments are crucial to know and listen to.

By making the readings mandatory - by making them essential parts of the liturgy, the Church is preserving their place in the minds and hearts of Catholic Christians - who will then take these truths to the world in our lives.

But liturgy is also prayer and worship - the rite includes rubrics whose purpose is not arbitrary questions of taste but tried and true expressions of what we believe in and how we believe it (truth and way)... thus the gestures mandated by the Church are set so that we learn how to act....

The standing and kneeling... the sign of peace, the responses... the silence after communion... all those things have a purpose in helping a plurality of people UNITE in habitual actions.

The image of every people under the sun, from every culture, language and view point who unite in one single liturgical action, who all kneel or stand or sit, who all act the same way in reverence to the Lord's real presence.... that is a unifying thing.

So this is the balance - rubrics ought to help unite people, not become obstacles to union. The language and gestures used and approved for use were designed for the good of "the people" as a whole, not for individual taste.

So in my mind at least I respect what has been given to us and HOW it has been transmitted to us in word and gesture. I understand the why behind what we do and the intentionality behind it.

But I also understand the need to be patient and charitable - and thus when fellow Catholics don't follow the rubrics or create their own gestures I don't mind so long as it's not flamboyantly distracting or "in your face".

If we can't all decide to freely follow the same simple rubrical guidelines then how can we expect to hold onto the same Moral and intellectual truths in the face of a hostile moral and intellectual culture that preaches a different Gospel and different God?

Balance, understanding, charity, seeing the difference between innocent individual taste and community serving conformity... this is what this is all about.

Peace

Joseph

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), October 22, 2004.

the reason, sharon, that i understand the holding of hands during the Our Father to be illicit is for a grave reason. The act of holding hands during the Our Father is a copy of what most protestant churches do when they say this prayer. it is done as a sign of unity of the church.

HOWEVER, we as catholics have a greater sign of unity. we are one body in the EUCHARIST. we need no other sign of solidarity than in our consumption of the body and blood of Christ our Lord. thus, our clinging to some sign of unity other than the eucharist in effect cheapens our experience of the union presented in the perfect sacrament of communion.

as i understand, a majority of well educated and conservative catholic clergy are against this action... but thats because my sources are generally ewtn and whatnot, so i could be wrong.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 22, 2004.

Also, Protestant churches emphasize the presence of Christ "in the Body" ("Whenever two or more of you gather in my name, I am there in your midst"). This is entirely appropriate for a Protestant service, for if Christ is there at all it is only in this symbolic way. This idea of course is also an element of Catholic worship, but in the Mass Christ is present not just "in the body" but especially in the flesh! Any other way He may be present is completely secondary to that miraculous fact; and therefore we do not emphasize those other ways He may be present, less they distract from His real physical presence. If Catholics gather for a prayer meeting or a service project or some other non-liturgical function, then we may say that He is present "in the body", and if we want to hold hands during that prayer time as a symbol of our unity as the symbolic body of Christ, that is acceptable. But not when the physical Body and Blood of Christ are present to us.

-- (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 22, 2004.

Paul,

I've never been to a charismatic mass, but isn't there a lot of hand holding, hand waving, dancing etc.? Given what you just said (which I agree with) and if I am right about the charismatic masses, are they illicit?

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), October 22, 2004.

Brian,

The best attended Sunday Mass at my parish is a so-called "charismatic" Mass. There is very spirited singing by the whole congregation, not just the choir, sometimes with clapping where appropriate, and enthusiastic communal prayer at designated times, but hand holding during the Lord's prayer is not encouraged, for exactly the reason I mentioned above. Dancing? Forget it! My pastor is strictly "by the book", and doesn't allow experimentation with unapproved forms of worship.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 22, 2004.

Holding hands during the Our Father at Mass may not be liturgically correct or endorsed by the official Church, but it surely hasn't been condemned as an abuse either. How can you describe it as "illicit"? As far as I can tell the Church is silent on the matter. The only rule the Church has established regarding our posture during the Our Father is that we should stand. How we arrange our hands is up to us, as long as we maintain appropriate reverence and avoid scandal.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), October 22, 2004.

I prefers to fold my hands, goes way back, but if any on wants to hold mine they will get it in an instant. I'm not worrie about rubrics but I do understand the consern. I see it as SMALL.

-- Jim (furst@flasfh.net), October 23, 2004.

meant to say ---one, worried, and concern. The nuns tried but failed, They really should have to repeat me several hundred times.

Once they get me right they can lt me go.

-- James Furst (furst@flash.net), October 23, 2004.

Paul,

Why do you describe it as "the so-called charismatic mass?" Aren't there in fact charismatic masses, or is that a misnomer?

Your pastor is by the book, but don't alot of charismatic masses feature swaying, and hands in the air and that sort of thing which seem to emphasize Christ "in the body," imitating Protestant worship, as you say above? And if true, doesn't that in turn affect traditional masses such that people begin to hold hands and lift their hands up during the Lord's prayer? Maybe it's all unapproved.

I'd like to check out a charismatic mass sometime to see for myself. I've been to Life Teen masses and seen plenty of hand holding, clapping, and hands in the air (not to mention T-shirts, flip-flops and belly buttons), so maybe there's not much difference.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), October 23, 2004.

Brian,

I guess I described it as a "so-called" charismatic Mass because of where I see myself in the Church at this time. Back when the Charismatic Renewal began in the Catholic Church in the late 60's and early 70's, people got caught up in the novelty of at all, and it seemed something distinct, something novel, something clearly within the Church, yet somehow set apart from the rest of the Church. In the years since then, charismatic spirituality has become increasingly integrated into the Church, and in my eyes at least such artificial distinctions have faded away. When someone mentions a "charismatic Mass", I know what they are referring to of course, but to my way of thinking, every Mass is a charismatic Mass; every sacrament is a charismatic event. "Charismatic' simply means "guided by the Holy Spirit". The Church is fundamentally charismatic and could not exist otherwise. By that I don't mean that the Church could not exist without the gift on tongues. I mean it could not exist without the ongoing guidance of the Holy Spirit. Tongues and prophecy and healing and other observable charisms were what initially caught people's attention regarding charismatic spirituality, and people responded to such new (to them) and powerful interactions with the Holy Spirit with great exuberance and excitement, and sometimes more than appropriate emotionalism; but they were finding their way in uncharted waters. As the "Catholic Charismatics" (a term I never felt comfortable with, because it makes "Charismatics" and not "Catholic" the focal point) of the early days have matured in their faith, The Holy Spirit has led them first to find themselves as "charismatic Catholics", and as they continue to follow the Spirit's lead, simply as Catholics, freed of artificial distinctions from the rest of the Church.

My parish is a "charismatic parish". It has been for 35 years; and the principle Mass on Sunday is a "charismatic Mass"; but nobody here speaks of it in those terms. Every week, in addition to Sunday Mass and daily Mass we have a holy hour followed by Benediction; a community rosary; and a community prayer meeting. No-one calls it a "charismatic holy hour" or "charismatic Benediction" or a "charismatic prayer meeting" or a "charismatic Mass"; yet all these elements of our spiritual lives are certainly charismatic, because the Holy Spirit works in us through them. Scripture tells us "no-one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit", and that the Holy Spirit guides the Church to all truth. Therefore the Church is essentially charismatic at its very roots. Those in the "charismatic renewal" have become increasingly aware of the charismatic nature of the Church, and of its members; and that awareness has led them to gradually learn openness to additional aspects of the Spirit's working in their lives. But it is all part of the greater picture known as "the Church". The Holy Spirit works in the lives of all its members. Which is why the Church is charismatic. Which is why I don't differentiate between a so-called "charismatic Mass" and a Tridentine Mass or any other Mass, any of which, from my perspective, are fully charismatic.

I do have reservations about some of the things I have seen in some Teen Life Masses. Also in some "charismatic Masses". And most certainly in some straightforward so-called "non-charismatic" Masses. I try to keep an open mind about the format of the Mass, as long as it adheres to Magisterial guidelines. The Spirit works in different ways in the lives of different people, and different people find God in different ways. But anything that truly leads people to God has to be a work of the Spirit. And anything that conflicts with the revealed will of God cannot be of the Spirit.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 23, 2004.

Paul, Life Teen has updated their guidelines to conform to the latest Vatican liturgical guidelines. Just for reference.

I have attended mass at the Charismatic Center in Houston, several times. I've seen nothing unorthodox there (intentional double negative), just an openness to the Holy Spirit.

Companions of the Cross is a great religious order that man the CC, by the way.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), October 26, 2004.

Whether you hold hands during the "Our Father" or not the great thing about being a member of the Catholic faith is that no matter where you go you can always attend Mass and it is the same teaching everywhere. So if you happen to be attending a church that doesn't hold hands......just quietly fold your hands and say the prayer. If they do hold hands, grab your neighbors and pray away ! You know....I feel happiest and most at peace when I am at Mass with the rest of our Parish. I never felt that in any protestant church I have ever attended. Even if I just go up to the church to light a candle and pray for a loved one or any intentions I feel a oneness with Jesus and I know that I am home.

Thanks and glory be to God !

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), October 26, 2004.

Excuse me, but why are folks busy judging whether the prayer posture of another Catholic Christian is "illicit" or "proper"? Isn't that the sad type of attitude Michal, Saul's daughter, displayed when she had contempt upon King David for dancing with abandon in front of the Ark of the Covenant? The Psalms say interesting things like, "Clap your hands...praise Him with the dance!" Perhaps we should be focusing on Christ our God and not nitpicking about His other servants. Cordially,

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), November 01, 2004.

michael, your logic would seem to make sense... at first glance. but it breaks down eventually.

lets say a couple go to church, is this okay? yes. Is it okay if they hold hands? eh, probably in most situations. Is it okay for them to start making out during the mass? most definately not.

You see, there are behaviors which are pleasing to God, and those which are not. The debate on the table isn't about forms, its about whether a certain action is acceptable or degrading to God... and THAT is very important.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 02, 2004.

Dear Paul H,

To compare an individual or two during holy Mass praying using the "orans" position of antiquity (you can see drawings in the catachombs of women praying this way) with a couple groping or making out in public is erroneous and perhaps even insulting. No one is arguing for groping couples during Mass (at least I am not). Recall the words of St. Paul in his letter to Timothy, "I desire that the men lift up holy hands in prayer." Granted I do have some charismatic tendencies, and so do not wish to quench the Spirit. Believing that St. Paul has a point, I have on occasion lifted up my hands as a sign of reverence in prayer. But take note that I do confess orthodox theology and practice, and have so prayed quietly and without, I think, calling notice to myself. All our attentions should be focused, rather, on the living Christ who is with us in body, blood, soul and divinity in the Holy Eucharist.

Cordially,

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), November 04, 2004.

There has always been a duly allotted time within the Mass for people to hold hands, kiss, and hug - the sign of peace. Why the sudden need for holding hands during the Our Father and why would the omission of this novelty lead anyone to feel lonely or less rich is beyond me.

This is all a distraction - the focus of the Mass is to be with Christ for that hour. We have the rest of our day and week to hold hands and take the charity of our hearts received at communion and share it with them.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), November 11, 2004.

so michael, what you are saying in so many words is that you agree that there are actions which are appropriate and pleasing to God in the appropriate times and actions which are innappropriate and displeasing to God at other times.

Again, i iterate that the action of holding hands during the Our Father detracts from the attention being paid to the eucharist and the reason behind the prayer (which is NOT unity of community by holding hands, be aquiescence to God's will) and that this action is therefore NOT LIKELY to be pleasing to God.

God Bless,

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 11, 2004.

There has always been a duly allotted time within the Mass for people to hold hands, kiss, and hug - the sign of peace.

I wouldn't say there *always* was, only there has been since Vatican II. Before this the sign of peace was said, but no hugging, etc.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 11, 2004.

And it wasn't said parishioner to parishioner. The priest, with a particle of the Host broken into three pieces, made a sign over the Chalice saying (in Latin) "The peace of the Lord be always with you" and the response was "And with thy spirit." That was it. Quite a contrast to the family reunion type of hugging today.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), November 11, 2004.

yes, well, brian, you should know very well that the vatican does not approve of some of the mass hysteria of hugging and running around that goes on in some churches today. that, like the holding of hands during the "Our Father" is a product of lax discipline on the part of the parish priests. I come from a conservative catholic parish, so it appalls me when people do this ridiculous run around the chapel to talk to every friend who came to mass. you're not the only one that wonders where that respect has gone in some churches, but pegging that on VII is just plain silly.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 11, 2004.

paul,

"Pegging that on VII?" Where?

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), November 11, 2004.

Brian and Frank, Vatican II didn’t introduce the sign or peace, they RESTORED it. It was done for centuries, beginning in ancient times and continuing I believe in some places right up to the Council of Trent.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), November 11, 2004.

sorry brian, that part of my response was directed towards franks comment right above yours... guess i should have been a little bit more clear about that. i agree, however, that the family reunion style of run and hug is stupid and disrespectful.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 12, 2004.

Paul H,

I'm sorry, but I still don't get your reaction. Are you saying that, if the Risen Lord Jesus were to appear in a room, it would "offend" Him if His people held hands in His presence? Why? Would He not just as likely be pleased that they were acknowledging their status as brothers and sisters because of Him?

Now, if you think that many who attend Mass don't understand or acknowledge His presence under the form of bread and wine, it's clear that we need more teaching and emphasis on the truth of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation. But that seems to me a different issue.

Cordially,

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), November 20, 2004.

Are you saying that, if the Risen Lord Jesus were to appear in a room, it would "offend" Him if His people held hands in His presence?

To argue in such manner tells much... Regardless, it would suggest you to be errant in some regard concerning Faith. I suggest you reevalute this precarious position your 'mind' puts you in...

Would you suggest the Church in error -your interpretation and conjecture superior to that of Church teaching and documented rubrics that require obedience?

Faith is not a concept requiring understanding or hollow declaration; Faith must be obediently acted upon...

Faith seeking understanding... Faith seeking understanding...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), November 20, 2004.

"Are you saying that, if the Risen Lord Jesus were to appear in a room, it would "offend" Him if His people held hands in His presence?"

A: I think the more appropriate question might be - If the Risen Lord Jesus were to appear in a room, would you be giving Him your absolute undivided attention in total awe and reverence, or would you be paying attention to the person standing next to you?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 20, 2004.

Hmmm....

1. What rubric are you referring to, that forbids people to hold hands during the Our Father? I admit I am ignorant as to such a rubric, though I am willing to learn and exercise obedience.

2. Do you really think that Mary and Joseph never held hands in Jesus' presence? That the shepherds and wise men had absolutely no interaction with one another in His presence? Just wondering.

Cordially,

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), November 20, 2004.

Dear Mr. Hawkenberry,

Your attitude is obnoxious and prideful, for you have no insight into the state of my soul or my mind; nor do you know me to be in any error of faith. Do you think you are the omniscient Lord? Do you consider yourself to be my Judge? Please think again. You may not like my question, but you are neither Pontiff, nor Prophet, nor Chief Inquisitor, for which may thanks be given to the Most Blessed Trinity.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), November 20, 2004.

Michael,

If a tree falls in the woods -does it make a sound?

Thus objectively it is proven you are foolish -be off now...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), November 21, 2004.

Let's get back on topic.

There was a letter from Rome in the past few months to U.S. or more bishops on the proper celebration of mass in that the rubrics are supposed to be respected, and not added to, or detracted from, or modified in any way. I believe the letter was from Cardinal Arinze who is delegated this authority by the Holy Father. For instance, the letter pointed out that wine on the alter is only supposed to be consecrated after it is in the chalice, and not before while still in a pitcher on the altar. It also pointed out that churches are places of worship so non-liturgical music and hand clapping is not appropriate.

Any-who. I had a similar experience with my youngest two sons wanting to go up and get a blessing at communion. I'm 5 years separated from my wife and we attend different parishes. My parish is more traditional. For instance, at the kiss of peace, the priest merely says to the congregation peace to you, and the congregation responds to him (and not to each other) "and also with you." This keeps thing focused on the consecration that is about to take place on the alter and I believe is a more complete adherence to the rubrics than is commonly done at the kiss of peace in the U.S.

My own experience was this. Until a couple of months ago, I would leave my two littler boys fidgetting (or rolling around a bit) in the pews while my oldest son and I walked up at communion. Then last summer, both little guys insisted on jumping out with us and would walk up with their arems folded across their breast. I think they picked this up at mass with my wife.

I thought it was cute. But I noticed that no other childeren in my parish did this. I think the pastor had made an announcement that I missed. I just don't remember seeing it there but I did vaguely remembered it from the seventies when I went to mass at another diocese.

By coincidence, at the luncheon after a recent baptism of my like 30th niece/nephew, the priest (a really conservative guy) who celebrated the mass after the baptism started talking about how this practice of going up for a blessing was not prescribed by the rubrics for the mass, and thus inappropriate. He said he was happy to give out blessings at any other time. But while celebrating mass, he was supposed to be only celebrating mass as it is properly prescribed. And that communion was for communion (and not giving/getting) blessings.

This made sense to me. But charity is important too. Its just that following th rubrics is important. Its kind of like the importance to making proper translations of the bible. Little modifications, over time, add up. Eventually, there are so many modifactions and additions, the original message gets changed, or worse, it gets lost.

Its such a big church, with so many people, and it has survived this long, all of this only by being faithful to the structure that Christ Himself mandated. That is why the rubrics are important.

-- Pat Delaney (patrickrdelaney@yahoo.com), November 21, 2004.

Dear Daniel,

Why do you think me foolish? Perhaps I am too much of a simpleton to understand you (or your tree in the forest), but I would appreciate an intelligent reply. Is it foolish to ask questions? And by the way, I am still waiting for your information on the Rubric that says the people of the assembly may not hold hands during the Our Father.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), November 21, 2004.

...Rubric that says the people of the assembly may not hold hands during the Our Father.

Michael,

Nowhere in my postings do I even suggest what your question is premised upon...

Assuming your intent genuine and not rhetoric -am I required to first debate invalidity contained in a question before even attempting to answer a potentially genuine inherent question -a question that at best is assumptive on my part? I would suggest that to do such would yield a potentially infinite debate...

Anyway, If you read postings in contrast to yours I would suggest you attribute at best incorrect assumptions by implication invoked as query. I will not assume as to intent; however, I would suggest this method of discerning Truth regarding Church teaching is merely morally relative debate. Church teaching is well documented and available.

-If you would like to learn more, I suggest you start with what Pat has posted; additionally, search this board to begin with and post further questions for clarification. I would suggest the Holy See as the information 'standard'... When I have more time I may be able to do more than just short postings...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), November 21, 2004.

“the letter was from Cardinal Arinze who is delegated this authority by the Holy Father…It also pointed out that churches are places of worship so non-liturgical music and hand clapping is not appropriate.” (Pat)

I heard what he said about the music, but I didn't know he'd condemned clapping. As for clapping along to a song, I’ve always thought that it's pretty silly even in a profane setting like a concert, but I’ll admit clapping along is appropriate to some of the charismatic-type hymns.

Clapping as applause, though, in my church is really starting to annoy me. Until a few years ago no-one ever clapped in Church. Then it started out as a way of appreciating a particularly inspiring guest speaker. Then we were invited to applaud every child baptised – twice! After the actual baptism, and again when they are presented with their certificate at the end of Mass. Lately people applaud someone who has merely given a 60-second speech after Communion telling us about some forthcoming social event. And as a choir member I have mixed feelings when our priest invites everyone to “show our appreciation of the music ministers” and leads them in applauding us at the end of Mass. It’s nice to be appreciated, but I sing to praise God and to lead others to praise Him, not to put on a performance for the congregation’s entertainment.

But funnily enough no one ever applauds the homily!

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), November 21, 2004.

Daniel,

Thanks for the link to the Holy See website. Although I have not yet found any information on it relating to the original question of this thread, "holding hands at Mass", yet I find Cardinal Arinze's document on the Eucharist to be helpful.

In case you didn't understand the meaning of my earlier questions, I was attempting (perhaps opaquely) to respond to some folks claiming it was illicit or disapproved by the Vatican to hold hands during the Our Father. My thought was this: barring a clear rubric or instruction to the contrary, and attempting to avoid scandal or offense, it seems to me that one might well follow the general custom of Catholics in America and hold hands during the Our Father, even in the presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, as a sign of our unity as the Family of faith formed by Him. In other words, I don't believe Our Lord was offended by people holding hands in His presence during His earthly ministry, nor do I think He would necessarily be offended by such now, providing of course that we in the assembly do recognize and honor His presence with interior adoration and love, as well as the appropriate kneeling, genuflections, etc. And I know of no rubric or instruction to the contrary.

I am sorry if I failed to be clear in my train of thought, or appeared to you to be someone worthy of the dismissal, "be gone". Perhaps if you knew me, my circumstances and my journey, you would have judged my faith differently.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), November 22, 2004.

Michael,

I am far far from perfect -we all try our best.

My apologies.

Daniel

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), November 22, 2004.

Many thanks, Daniel! Blessed Thanksgiving to you.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), November 23, 2004.

Anyone remember the song, "All You Peoples, Clap Your Hands (clap, clap), And Shout for Joy. For the Lord has Made all Mankind One, So Raise Your Voices High." One of my favorites. Ray Repp, right?

I too don't like clapping after Baptisms, Marriages, etc. It somehow lessens the seriousness of the preceeding sacrament, imho.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 23, 2004.

michael, sorry it took me so long to get back to you...

Are you saying that, if the Risen Lord Jesus were to appear in a room, it would "offend" Him if His people held hands in His presence?

no. thats not the POINT. its not holding hands that is offensive, its the REASON behind it.

Why? Would He not just as likely be pleased that they were acknowledging their status as brothers and sisters because of Him?

Because the act of holding hands isnt about showing unity of the community in Christ, we already have that. The act of holding hands is about showing the unity of community by itself, which is a grave insult to Christ. it would be like, if the Risen Lord came back today, would He be offended if someone said, "hey Christ, come back later, we're showing our community solidarity right now." and thats EXACTLY what trying to prematurely demonstrate community wholeness does, it puts the important factor of the mass (Christ) on hold while it makes some punile attempt at what the Eucharist so perfectly does for us.

Now, if you think that many who attend Mass don't understand or acknowledge His presence under the form of bread and wine, it's clear that we need more teaching and emphasis on the truth of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation.

agree completely

But that seems to me a different issue.

and it is a different issue. the issue has NOTHING to do with communion and everything to do with the fact that the uniting of hands to show solidarity DURING the mass is misintentioned and wrong.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 24, 2004.

Hello Paul H.

Are you referring to holding hands during the Our Father, as is done in many parishes? If so, can you show me a rubric which forbids this? Short of that, call it what you will, you may consider it wrong, but perhaps many Catholics of equal devotion and holiness might disagree. And if you are talking about something else, I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you. I'm trying to be careful because I have not always been most clear lately in my writing. Blessings,

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), November 28, 2004.

If so, can you show me a rubric which forbids this?

I think you're looking at this the wrong way around. Since there's no rubric which tells me not to stand on my head during Mass, is it OK for me to do it?

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), November 28, 2004.

Very funny, Nick. But YOU’RE looking at it the wrong way round. Standing on your head is not a usual posture when praying (except maybe if you’re an Indian yogi). In my family and I’m sure many others, we hold hands when we pray together at home. I don’t normally hold holds during the Our Father during Mass, but if the priest asks us to hold hands, I don’t see any reason to give my neighbors a cold shoulder when they reach out their hands to me.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), November 28, 2004.

michael,

the book MASS CONFUSION notes on praying with hands outstretched:

"The US Bishops have considered permitting the laity to mimic these gestures of the priest or bishop, but the Holy See has not approved this, and the more recent instruction on collaboration prohibits the laity from mimicking the gestures appropriate to the priest." Akin 211

the instruction noted reads:

"Niether may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant..." ICP, Practical Provisions 6 S 2

i'm sure someone can also point out the instructions which forbid the addition of actions to the mass on the part of individuals which are NOT approved.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 29, 2004.

Actually Nick the rubrics DO tell you not to stand on your head, since they instruct us to “stand”, which you can safely assume means “stand on your feet” unless standing on your head is specifically mentioned.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), November 29, 2004.

Quoting Catholic Answers' apologist Peggy Frye (Holding Hands during the Our Father)

“The Holy See has not ruled directly on this issue. In a response to a query, however, the Holy See stated that holding hands “is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics” (Notitiae 11 [1975] 226, DOL 1502 n. R29). For this reason, no one can be required to hold hands during the Our Father.” (Nor is the orans posture in the rubrics.) The U.S. Status: People hold hands during the Our Father (p. 161)— Discouraged (Mass Confusion Appendix Three pg. 234) In the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal the only posture specified during the Our Father is standing. GIRM: http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/curren...lisromanien.htm (paragraphs 43 and 160) Before the reading of the Gospel, the faithful should make the sign of the cross on the forehead, mouth, and breast.

For more info see other posts on the Catholic Answers Ask an Apologist Forum: How can I stop the hand- holding in my parish?
Holding hands during the Our Father
Our Lord's Prayer during mass
Confusion on rubrics
The Lord's Prayer God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), November 29, 2004.

Sorry, trying that again! Moderator please delete my message above.

Quoting Catholic Answers' apologist Peggy Frye (Holding Hands during the Our Father)

“The Holy See has not ruled directly on this issue. In a response to a query, however, the Holy See stated that holding hands “is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics” (Notitiae 11 [1975] 226, DOL 1502 n. R29). For this reason, no one can be required to hold hands during the Our Father.” (Nor is the orans posture in the rubrics.)

The U.S. Status:
People hold hands during the Our Father (p. 161)— Discouraged
Mass Confusion Appendix Three pg. 234) In the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal the only posture specified during the Our Father is standing.
GIRM: http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/curren...lisromanien.htm (paragraphs 43 and 160)

Before the reading of the Gospel, the faithful should make the sign of the cross on the forehead, mouth, and breast.

For more info see other posts on the Catholic Answers Ask an Apologist Forum:

How can I stop the hand- holding in my parish?
Holding hands during the Our Father
Our Lord's Prayer during mass
Confusion on rubrics
The Lord's Prayer

God bless,

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), November 29, 2004.

Thanks, Emily!

So, it appears no one can be "forced" to hold hands during the Our Father, and that it is not a "mandated" action, but on the other hand it is not really an "abuse".

Perhaps all of this is making a mountain out of a molehill.

By the way, the quote--from Akin I guess--says the U.S. practice is "discouraged". Discouraged by whom? By Akin?

Cordially,

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), November 30, 2004.

Michael said: By the way, the quote--from Akin I guess--says the U.S. practice is "discouraged". Discouraged by whom? By Akin?

I wondered that too, Michael. I'm sorry that I don't have the book to check and I wish they were more clear on this. However, here is the exact quote:

The U.S. Status:
People hold hands during the Our Father (p. 161)— Discouraged
(Mass Confusion Appendix Three pg. 234)

I would guess that since it says US Status, this refers to the USCCB's statement on the matter, but I don't know really. Perhaps someone who has the book can tell us for sure. It doesn't seem that Akin would have the authority to say it's discouraged, nor do I think he would take on that role on his own. I think I remember hearing on EWTN that the bishops discouraged it. However I searched their site and could not find anything on the matter of holding hands during the Our Father.

I found an article from EWTN/Zenit: http://www.ew tn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur10.htm

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), November 30, 2004.

"at my church" we do it this way.."at MY church, we do it THIS way." I have just spent a half hour reading various posts having to do with the mass, rubrics, etc. and wonder why people cannot see that there is indeed "mass confusion" among us. Emily posted on another thread that she has had difficulty in the past learning the mass, since it's different in each parish she attended. There are threads describing churches with kneelers, without kneelers, priests who permit children to come to the altar during consecration, priests who bless kids in line for the Eucharist, priests who do not.. congregations who hold hands during the Our Father, ones who don't. Latin masses, charismatic masses, folk masses, outdoor masses, Tridentine masses.altar girls and no altar girls.. thread after thread of what is permitted and what is not..why so much difference from parish to parish if we are ALL ONE CHURCH?

Why so much confusion? Why is it so difficult for the church to be united again? On one hand, the people SEEM to say "we will obey the church's teachings", and yet when the teachings are presented in such a manner as "holding hands during the Our Father is discouraged", the response is not to stop doing it, but to continue, since the church didn't say it's FORBIDDEN.

I don't get it at all. More and more Catholic parishes seem to be saying "We will follow the church if whatever it says suits us."

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), November 30, 2004.

We are one in our worship because we are united in the Eucharist. "Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Corinthians 10:17). That essential truth is not altered in the slightest by the presence or absence of kneelers, blessings, altar girls, hand- holding, Latin, organ or guitar music, or any other externals. Note that Paul says the believers are "many". He isn't just referring to a head count here. He means that the believers are different from one another in a multitude of ways, from vastly different cultures, with different social customs, languages, and traditions, yet the Eucharist supercedes all differences, binding them, and us, into one unified body. The Eucharist is the Eucharist and the Mass is the Mass whether it is celebrated on the marble altar of a great cathedral to the sounds of Gregorian Chant, or on the hood of a Jeep in the jungle to the sound of bombs exploding nearby.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 30, 2004.

Lesley, "unity" does not mean "uniformity".

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), November 30, 2004.

Then as long as we are united in the Eucharist, and "it's all good", who cares who is doing what in various parishes, eh?

I would then expect to see when someone posts in the future, asking if it's OK to do this or that, the answer must be "yes" it makes no difference whatsoever about externals..they are unimportant and meaningless..do whatever you like to do individually or as a congregation as long as you celebrate the Eucharist, for that is what makes us Catholics. That's good to know.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 02, 2004.

You’re being deliberately obtuse Lesley. Anarchy is not the only alternative to absolute uniformity. The Church’s documents lay down strict rules for the celebration of the Mass and sacraments. Within tightly defined parameters, they allow for adaptation by bishops, priests, and even sometimes by laypeople, to suit local or community conditions. It is FAR from "Do whatever you like".

Externals are not “meaningless”, indeed all our sacraments are made up of “external” signs to reflect the inner invisible inaudible spiritual truths. But rigid worldwide uniformity in minor elements of the externals would become a barrier to the effective celebration of the sacraments. I’m certain I could attend any celebration of the Catholic Mass or sacraments anywhere in the world and I would know which sacrament was being celebrated.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 02, 2004.

Out of your mouth to God's ear Steve..as the saying goes. If you are happy believing that the Church is unified around the world at the current time, and all is well, then more power to you.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 02, 2004.

Dear Leslie,

Perhaps the problem is that too few *believe* the Faith anymore. I don't think our main problem is a lack of lock-step practices--there has always been some variation in the rites of Holy Church. Our problem today, in my estimation, is that too few people *believe* in the Divinity of Christ, that He is our Judge, purgatory and hell, Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, importance of Confession, the rosary, etc., etc. I would posit that our true unity is found in "one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of us all" as St. Paul says. And surely, out of honor for the Holy Father and for the saints who have gone before us, and for good order, of course we follow the rubrics. But that doesn't mean we are all exactly alike, or else there would be no such thing as the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church, which never had Latin or the Tridentine Mass, etc.

As Saint Augustine said, "In essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, love."

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), December 03, 2004.