Hi, I am having problems with my 12-year-old daughter. Despite having 6 years of primary school Christian education, she does not seem to have a sense of why morals matter. In the past week things came to a head: cheating on an exam, signing my name to a detention slip, and much lying. This in a move from the religious school to a public school where she has more responsibility (she must get from school, and do homework unsupervised, and a few more things).

She knows right from wrong, just not why she should do right (or this is what I am thinking and a few questions seemed to indicate).

Maybe it is more our fault than the schools: we have kept her on a reward system for much of her life, using the carrot rather than the stick.

But the core of my question is not directly the above, but what can I do for a course in morality? If she never learned it, she may just need training. So where would you start in a course for morals?

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), November 07, 2004

Answers

sean,

first off, moral discipline is a product of rewards for good behavior, and just punishments for bad behavior. Even Sun Tzu recognized the vital need for negative reenforcement of bad behavior several thousand years ago.

I would suggest a strong punishment for her actions, to be delivered quickly and fairly. if you wait too long to punish her, the mental connection of action and consequence won't work out right... and that appears to be what you need right now. Remember, nobody ever said being a parent was easy, its HARD, and disciplining a disobedient child is perhaps one of the hardest tasks a parent faces. HOWEVER, if you dont teach your daughter that there are proportional consequences to actions, then you actually hurt her in the end.

As to teaching her that these things apply in life, give her some credit. if she learns that there are consequences in small things like this, she will naturally reason it out that the same applies to all in life, and will probably also arrive at the conclusion that some consequences are deeper than being grounded.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 08, 2004.

My husband and I raised 5 children and 11 foster children..you say your daughter "knows right from wrong"..but not "why" she should "do right". In other words, she is choosing to behave poorly and perhaps saying to you "so what? I know it was wrong but what difference did it REALLY make if I signed your name..it's not THAT big of a deal?" "It's not like I stole a car or something."

12 year olds who have been taught right from wrong already have a base of moral values. What they don't have is impulse control and the ability to sift through the long-term consequences of their behaviors. That's why parents must put the brakes on gently and FIRMLY with this age group and haul them back in ASAP. When all of our kids were this age, we made it a point to have a ton of activities at out home. "Friends" who didn't come to our house were forbidden to our kids. Any signs of lying, cheating, etc. were dealt with very swiftly and in such a manner that it simply wasn't worth it to repeat the behavior. (grounding, no phone, no TV, no NOTHING and we stuck to it). Our motto was "We love you and because we do,we're going to make these choices for you right now." As the kids get older, they are able to develop their own sense of self-control along with the morals and values you've already taught them from day #1..it all comes together. Until then, they need the discipline + love + guidance + patience + prayer..not necessarily in that order.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), November 08, 2004.

Sean,

Maybe your daughter is being influenced by her friends. Moral courage may be what your daughter needs reinforced. Until then, you may have to make decisions for her.

The best course on morality is the one you live at home. May be use examples from your own life to explain not only what you're choosing to do, but why. That may help her understand the "why" of morality. The primary reason for morality isn't just practical, it's love for Christ. That may help too.

I'll pray for you and her. I appreciate you sharing your experiences here. It will help people like me when my kids reach that age.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 08, 2004.

Yes, we grounded her fast. No Sat Cartoons, no role playing ( the reward she was cheating for).Also consequences: she can not say anything to suppoort her position, as her word is not trusted. Gotta have proof or no go. I am still thinking that additional education could help.

Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), November 08, 2004.

I had seen something like this in a lower grade, when the reward was so high that she would do *anything* for it. Second grade, IIRC. And since then I had simply not made the reward that high. And she has been reminded that if that is the case, the reward will simply go away.

Presently I am thinking of renting a different set of films, and seting her on a different and additional set of books. Needful Things jumps to mind as a movie. Screwtape letters as a book. More as I can think of them.

Thanks to all those that replied, especially Leslie.

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), November 08, 2004.

SCHOOL PUNISHES IDENTITY

it's not there to teach your kid important stuff it's there cos of the system who wants to control the generations of the future and eliminate every single one who opposes to the majority and authority in general,who thinks different and wants to be different

it's there to bring ppl to 'discipline' while they're young,to make them obey and blindly follow the leader, instead of thinking with their own heads and question authority instead of simply obeying it

freedom is the essential for a good development of the identity of children,if u take away their freedom, u take away their souls the become nothing but a bunch of mental castrated robots,just another hopless bunch of bricks in the wall

i know we all love our children...but love without knowledge is like an airplane without a pilot...ready to crash

there's nothing wrong with ur daughter man, she's just growing up:)

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 08, 2004.

I have hit the library. That says that one way is via stories. Like the Book of virtues. Also like a large number of suggested reading. I did a few photocopies, and now have a reading list. I think she has been exposed to the movie versions of many of the books on that list.

Freedom is important. Truth is too. We need more truth to communicate with each other, especially her and I.

Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), November 08, 2004.

off course that truth is important sean

but this is why u should give ur children freedom, so that they can trust u and are not afraid of u, but see u as a friend

but those other things u've mentioned don't have really something to do with morale,the cheating on the exam and singing the detention note with ur name

we all did such things when we were kids to say out of trouble right?

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 09, 2004.

but this is why u should give ur children freedom, so that they can trust u and are not afraid of u, but see u as a friend

what a ridiculous concept!!! whoever said anything about being FRIENDS with your child? Thats not your JOB. You job is to be their PARENT... which is a subtley important difference. discipline is not to make them afraid of you, it is to teach the nature of consequence to them... you allow freedom where the true consequences are small enough for the child to handle, but when the consequences are large, or are escalating to greater and greater ramifications, it is the solemn DUTY of the parent to step in and cease the childs behavior, providing negative reenforcement if need be. you had better believe that as a friend, i dont let my friends drive home after a night at the bar... sure it may tick them off to no end when i take their keys, but they are still alive in the morning and that is what matters. sometimes, anonymous, doing the right thing is more important than allowing someone entire freedom to pick anything they want.

but those other things u've mentioned don't have really something to do with morale,the cheating on the exam and singing the detention note with ur name

who cares?!?!?! first, lying, cheating, and forgery ARE matters of morality. However, even if they weren't, forgery is still a secular crime, and being commanded to obey all secular laws which agree with Christian teaching, engaging in forgery certainly IS a moral violation.

we all did such things when we were kids to say out of trouble right?

and hopefully your parents punished you in order to teach you discipline and prevent you from doing it again. the fact that you did it when you were young does NOT relieve you of the duty you have as a parent to be a firm moral guiding force in the life of your child.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 09, 2004.

TO PAUL H:

real parents are friends to their children

a friend is not someone that you know and with who you like to hang around and do stuff

a true friend is someone that loves you and respect you the way you are,someone you can trust and depend on,someone who'll help you when you don't even ask for help,someone who listens to your problems and encourages you,...someone who helps you through this shitty life

it doesn't really matter if someone's your brother,your sister,your parent or your wife when it's not your friend....

those things are just the results of a sadistic schoolregime

every time when my parents punished me for something like that,they punished theirselves...

no nobody ever brought me to 'discipline'

i'm not a wild horse that needs to be tamed

i'm a human being and i know what's right and what's wrong

i don't want my spirit to be put in box where it doens't fit

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 09, 2004.

amen anonymous

-- nathan de winter (de_nathan_winter@hotmail.com), November 09, 2004.

I am NOT my daughters' friend ! I am their mother and as their mother I DEMAND, not ask of, but DEMAND, respect and obedience. My children know that they can come to me with problems and get good sound advise. I usually tell parents of pre-teens or younger teens, "If your kids "like" you, you aren't doing your job. If they love, respect, and obey you, you are." True enough friends love eachother, but it is a completely different kind of love than what is found between a parent and children, same as the love of a husband and wife are different than friends or parent/child relationships. When ( and it is very rare) my fifteen year old starts getting lippy with me I usually tell her to step lightly, you aren't talking to one of your little friends here! If you will quit trying to be your child's friend and be more of a parent to her then you will reap better results, otherwise you are going to not get her respect and obedience. Have a lovely day !

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 09, 2004.

i'm 27 and i have one kid now, she's 8 now

me and my gf will never demanded anything from our child,we ask her with respect and we don't place ourselves above her

we teach her right from wrong so that she knows what's best for her so she doesn't have to obey me or anyone else

she trusts us,and she loves and she knows we'll give her the freedom to be as she wants to be as and do what she wants to do as long as she doens't harm anyone with it

i love her so much and i would never want to make her feel sad i would hate myself if i'd took anything away from her that she needs in her young world,like my parents did to me

i would never want her to end up like me regretting so many things that happend in my youth,so many things all my friends could do and have and i couldn't,so many things i am still missing inside of me

she's happy and so am i and my gf we don't argue much and when we have a problem we solve it by talking and listening to each other,instead of commanding and obeying

a healthy relationship with ur child isn't based on commanding and obey,it's based on trust and love

and i don't believe in punishment and reward,

if she does something good only to not get punished or to get a reward,then is that deed meaningless and then i'm just lying to myself and to my child that she's been good and that everything's ok

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 09, 2004.

A healthy relationhsip with any chold is also base don command... they do not have the maturity to make formal choices, this is why we dotn let them vote...

I beelive we should balance thigns out. I was brogth up abused. I was allowed no freedom even to be myself. This was wrong. But its erquelly wrogn to give adult responcibiltieis and choices to children.

They cant handle adult situaitons and shoidl nto be presente withhtat kind of freedom till they CAN handle it.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 09, 2004.

"""""They cant handle adult situaitons and shoidl nto be presente withhtat kind of freedom till they CAN handle it. """""

yeah ur right zarove about this, but i wasen't talking about serious choises i meant normal stuff in life

i wasen't allowed to do almost anything,i wasen't allowed to ride a bike, 'cos it s dangerous',i wasen't allowed go anywhere alone till my 13th year!,to sleep at a friends place,to go out,i always had to have straight A's or i got punished,and many many many other things,this is like hell when u are young u know and i never want to do something like that to my child

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 09, 2004.

There is a vast difference between a friend and a parent. A parent provides loving discipline, something a friend cannot do because they have no authority to do so. Of course parents provide choices to their children..it's valuable part of teaching them to be adults someday..yet, as parents, choices are given to your children as the children's ages and maturity dictate. One does not permit a toddler to run out into a busy street just because the toddler wishes to..for fear of harming the toddlers sense of autonomy. The parent knows and the toddler does not that such behavior is fraught with danger. And so the parent livingly but firmly holds the toddler's hand AGAINST THE TODDLER'S WILL. The toddler resists, perhaps even having a temper tantrum and crying. The little one sees NO GOOD REASON why he shouldn't continue running into the street..it's fun..it felt good. "What's the problem?" Put two toddlers together and they both will happily run into the street. They haven't the maturity to know any better. Same with pre-teens and teens as they are facing learning to be adults. Some situations they can handle and some they cannot. They don't have the maturity yet to be able to carefully evaluate ALL of the choices that they are making. Left completely to their own devices,without parental guidance, they are more vulnerable. There are two extremes : Smother the child with rules so they never have an opportunity to think for themselves, and the other extreme is to have no rules at all so the child has to wonder what to "do".

Part of parenting is teaching a child that their are ALWAYS consequences for behaviors in this life and the next..always. Good consequences and bad. One must be prepared to stand and to face them, so one must make one's choices carefully.

I've made it clear to all of my children that they may be blessed with good friends as they go through their lives, their Father and I are not in that category. God has given us an awesome responsibility as parents..and we will answer to God for how we raised our children.So far, with a ton of help from the Almighty, we've done well.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), November 09, 2004.

Sean,

We are all sinners. I can think of a lot worse that a 12 year old could be doing. This doesn't mean you have not been a good Father.

I messed up much worse than that at 12.

"..So where would you start in a cource for morals?"

Sean you need to come back to the Catholic Church. Your own "morals" are evil!

You love your daughter very much. Would it of been ok to abort her when your wife was pregnant at 8 weeks?

What is the time limit do you think when one becomes a child? Is it when one just slides down the shute? Or does a c-section count at 6 months?

"..but what can I do..."

Pray to stop abortion. Look how many girls that never got a chance to " cheat on a exam" because they were aborted.

May God bless your family.

-- - (David@excite.com), November 09, 2004.

Not to pass the buck, but I remember a fairly recent study done on exam cheating, and some of the kids mentioned that they saw it not much differently than working together in class.

I hate to say this, but a LOT of public schools use small group projects--imho, to let the students babysit each other while the teacher grades papers or whatever. The smart kid does all the work, the not-so-smart and just-plain-lazy kids copy it, and everyone gets the same good grades. I have seen on forums where kids and parents ask for science project ideas, and one book I read actually said that parents should get used to "helping" (i.e. DOING) their kid's science fair projects, because that is now the norm. Isn't that sad, and is it no wonder that children develop no sense of pride in their own hard-earned accomplishments?

I think it is deplorable, but I am not surprised that kids then make the (to them, anyway) logical jump to cheating on tests--they see it as just another "groupthink" or "networking" project. Look at many jobs today--how many times are you asked to or forced to work in groups, and how often is your job on the line based on how others perform?

Was she doing better at the religious school? Is what you're saying now is that she is essentially a "latchkey" kid? That's what it sounds like. Do you have a YMCA nearby? In our area, they manage in partnership with the district an afterschool program for grades 5-8 from when school gets out to about 6pm--you have to pay (not too expensive), but the kids are all bused to one of the schools in the district, and there is homework help, crafts, sports, etc.

Or does she have a favorite hobby/sport/activity?

I think the best approach is using the Golden Rule--"do unto others". Use any serious examples you can think of from family and friend experiences.

Hope this helps.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 09, 2004.

God the Father is the perfect and most loving father. Jesus His Son is the perfect and most loving son and brother to us all. We can't go wrong by imitating them.

The hard part is applying their teachings despite our human failings. Prayer is one of the best tools in parenting, but I almost never use it, especially in fits of anger.

Thanks all for this discussion. As a parent, it helps to hear from other, more experienced parents facing stuff I soon will be too.

I hope Suzanne doesn't mind me borrowing her "doxology" but it's a great one.

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), November 09, 2004.

GT, Actually just a half a latch key kid. My half a job allows me to sometimes check up on her.

Actual results are that she is trying to win back our respect, and the rewards we would give her for doing good. *sigh*! still rewards based. Oh, well.

And back to the original topic, while this has been an educational experience for us and her, I am still considering giving her an seperate educational track on ethics/morality. Research continues on what this should be and how it should be presented. Information/suggestions in this direction would help. I am assuming that at the 8-12th grade level in a responsible Christian school would cover this material? What would they do?

Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

Hi Ya'll! Andy, use it anytime.....anyone and everyone should give all glory and thanks to God!

Sean, I believe with strong discipline and good training and enforcing good habits in her life she will be fine. All kids go through an age where they THINK they want to be independent, but inside they are screaming, "MOM! DAD! I want to be made to mind!" Most kids realize this fact when they have kids of their own. But truse me, I have a 15 year old and twin 14 year old daughters, and the older they get the more stupid you become! It's true! They THINK they know it all. Keep a reign on her and give her SOME slack, but be ready to pull it tight when needed. Different occasions of misbehavior warrant different meathods of discipline. For example, if she cheats on a test, ground her from the phone, tv, computer, going to friends homes, having company and make her use all the extra time studying and reflecting on why she cheated. Fighting with her siblings warrants having to hold hands and face eachother and saying,"I love you!" and add in a hug and kiss for good measure. (mine hate this LOL). Having an attitude with me or daddy or blatant disrespect and disobedience warrants a spanking immediately. I used all of these meathods when they were very young (aspecially the spanking as smaller kids) and I rarely have to discipline anymore. The oldest gets lippy at times but I pull on the reigns a bit and she knows immeadiately to stop and usually a word is all it takes to quiet her mouth and there is no need to use a harsher method. Be strong and firm in discipline and show her you love her by not letting her run wild. Most of all give lots of hugs and kisses. Be free with the words "I love you" and tell her often how much she means to you. She might not fully appreciate it now, but in time when she grows up and matures she will love you all the more for having been a parent rather than her friend. Good luck and God bless!

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 10, 2004.

Oh yeah, Sean, have you considered homeschooling rather than private schooling? We have homeschooled ours for the last 10 years. Our oldest went to public school for the first time last year (9th grade) and is doing very well. She had a strong foundation to build on. There are some excellent homeschooling materials avaliable. Catholic Heritage Curricula is a good company. I use their materials. http://www.chcweb.com/ <<<< Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 10, 2004.

'Most kids realize this fact when they have kids of their own'

no suzanne,they get blinded by their suffocating love for their children...

sean,suzanne pls take the time to read and think about what i have posted

i only did it because i wanted to help

greetz,anonymous

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

Anonymous, I believe you truly want to help, and I agree that abuse is not the way to raise kids, but when kids lack stern but loving discipline in their lives they lose direction and end up going down the wrong track.....a track that leads to destruction. I would never abuse my children, but abuse comes in many forms, physical, sexual, and mental are just three. There is also neglect. And when parents neglect to train and guide their kids in discipline I believe they are neglecting their future well being and that is just as wrong as beating your child. There has to be a medium between either end of the spectrum. On one hand you can not gain respect, trust and love by physically abusing a child, but you will never gain it by ignoring that a child needs discipline either. I hope you will take what I said into consideration and began to have authoritive discipline over your child and help her to take the right directions in life. Good luck with your family.

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 10, 2004.

what does discipline mean to you suzanne?

when she does something wrong just to punish her?

instead maybe of asking why she did that,what cause her to do that and explain to her why it is wrong;it is very important that your child realizes why something is right or wrong and that it can see the difference between those two things

off course if she keeps doing the same wrong things just because she "doesn't give a shit", off course i will punish her but i'm very very happy that those kinds of things don't happen in my family

but today there is very much discussion on what's right or wrong

for example some ppl think that your child having a boyfriend is wrong and will strictly forbid this and do anything to be sure such things won't happen

this is why i siad in one of my posts that love without knowlegde is a plane without a pilot,many ppl did many afwul things out of love,like my parents to me for example,while they were convinced they were doing me good

parents should know where the freedom of their child in a certain age reaches and accept their child as it is and not as they want it to be

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

discipline to me is commanding and obeying,sorry that may be a wrong interpretation but that is how i experienced it

i just want my child to have a right judgement between right and wrong

i don't command her,i teach her

and she doesn't obey me,she just learns from me and i learn as well from her

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

I have always explained to the children why they are being punished and why it was wrong. I allow my children only a certain amount of freedom and then you have to draw the line.

You say....for example some ppl think that your child having a boyfriend is wrong and will strictly forbid this and do anything to be sure such things won't happen this is why i siad in one of my posts that love without knowlegde is a plane without a pilot,many ppl did many afwul things out of love,like my parents to me for example,while they were convinced they were doing me good

Are you telling me that if your 11 or 12 year old daughter wants to have a boyfriend it is ok with you and that you do not mind if these 2 very young immature CHILDREN practice adult love? Well, let me tell you one thing, I am a nurse and have worked for our county health department and I have seen way too many parents like you who refuse to discipline and set boundried and allow their children to "learn how to love" that end up on the pill at 11 or 12 years old and are extremely premiscious. By the time these girls reach age 15 or 16 they have either given birth or had abortions and more than half of them have some form of STD! You want this for your child??? I treated a child of 12 who was pregnant 2 years ago ! 12 my good friend! All because her parents didn't want to hurt her poor little feelings! This CHILD HAS A CHILD!!!! THANK GOD HER PARENTS HAD ENOUGH GOODNESS NOT TO ORDER HER TO MURDER THAT CHILD AS IT WAS TRULY THEIR FAULTS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!! I have seen way too many things in my years as nurse like this that it just plumb makes me livid at parents like you who REFUSE TO SHOW AUTHORITY AND SET BOUNDRIES AND TEACH YOUR CHILDREN THAT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR DOING WRONG!!!!!!!! Your child is still very young yet.....8 you said???....well friend wait till she is 12 or 13. You are going to really have a problem on your hands and it will be no one's fault but yours and her mother's. You two better sit down and calmly discuss a set of rules for this child to follow and enforce them now while she is still young enough to get control over.

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 10, 2004.

Anonymous, I think you miss the real meaning of discipline altogether, which has to do with self-control. Children do not get discipline out of thin air. They need examples, constant, correct examples, just as one does when learning to read and write. Then, as they get older they have a framework to be able to make correct, informed decisions about conduct.

You may have had a bad experience or two as a child, but totally swinging the opposite way to no guidance at all, which is what I have been reading from you since your first post, is no better.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 10, 2004.

Sean, the other activity you might get your daughter involved in is some active charity work--we have "Service Sunday" where people get together and help out someone with things like stacking firewood, clearing blackberry vines, etc. (no income requirement) and then meet for a pizza feed afterwards. Helping someone else makes you feel better.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), November 10, 2004.

i really don't think my daughter is going to want to have sex when she's 12... normal ppl with good caring parents and good friends would never come to such crazy thoughts

you know suzanne, it's not my fault this country is going crazy...

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

Anonymous, the worlds craziness is not your fault, and you sound as if you really love your daughter and want what is in her best interest. And, yes, "normal" children with loving homes and neighbors still end up having sex and pregnant. You can not love a child too much, butlove isn't enough to make a child learn right and wrong. It takes parental authority and discipline. Do you mind if I ask how old you are and if this is your only child? Is sounds to me like you have alot to learn and the best source is from other experienced parents. Have a good day and God bless.

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 10, 2004.

i am 27 and yes she's my only child suzanne

about the pregnancy thing: we just have to teach our kids to use contraceptives and condoms to prevent pregnancies and sexually transmittive deseases,i don't know how somebody could not do this when the person is aware of the possible consequences

-- anti-bushhhh (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

me and my gf will never demanded anything from our child,we ask her with respect and we don't place ourselves above her

So what's your plan if you ask her with respect and she tells you what you can do with it? And gf=girlfriend?

we teach her right from wrong so that she knows what's best for her so she doesn't have to obey me or anyone else

Huh? Since she knows right from wrong she doesn't have to clean her room when you "ask her with respect?" She doesn't have to take out the garbage? She doesn't have to be home at 10:00? She doesn't have to stay away from those kids who are smoking pot and having sex?

she trusts us,and she loves and she knows we'll give her the freedom to be as she wants to be as and do what she wants to do as long as she doens't harm anyone with it

And when she wants to do something that harms someone? You have established that she does not have to obey you, or anyone else. So then what? And don't think she will never do somthing that harms someone. You yourself already said: "we all did such things when we were kids to say out of trouble right?"

i really don't think my daughter is going to want to have sex when she's 12... normal ppl with good caring parents and good friends would never come to such crazy thoughts

Why wouldn't she? Kids are very sexualized today. Look at tv. Look at the movies. There is alot of peer pressure. And you are going to give her freedom, let her spend the night at friends' houses, have boyfriends etc. And if that was you on the last post, teaching her about using contraceptives and condoms will only give her the idea that sex is inevitable--an idea reinforced every day in advertising, music, tv, etc.

Anonymous,

Your upbringing seems to have really scarred you. I'm truly sorry! You feel you were suffocated, so to speak, but it seems you are overcorrecting with your own child. You don't want your daughter to be mad at you. You want to get along with her. I hope I'm wrong but your parenting style could create big problems for you in the future. I see it all the time. If its not disobedience, it could be recklessness (sex, drugs, alcohol), which can harm herself and others. A parent can provide discipline and get along with their kids very very well (every second--no, but overall--yes). And discipline should not be and does not have to be draconian, which maybe you endured. But if a parent waits too long to impose discipline, there could be serious discord. Don't wait too long!

ps--if your daughter, in her teenage years, were to have sex and get pregnant, would you want her to keep the baby. Are you pro-life?

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), November 10, 2004.

brian

maybe you shoud read my first post about sean's daughter and about the school system

""And if that was you on the last post, teaching her about using contraceptives and condoms will only give her the idea that sex is inevitable""

i'm not going to talk NOW about those things to my daughter lol

she's only 8 man

everything in it's time:)

and why should i ever forbid her to have a boyfriend?

that is crazy,that is a crime,they should put that on the list of children's rights

and yes if she got pregnant as a teenager(and i really hope that this doesn't happen),off course i'd let her keep the baby,it's not the baby's fault that she had sex unprotected...

a child is a child,born or unborn

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

maybe you shoud read my first post about sean's daughter and about the school system

I did. And.......

i'm not going to talk NOW about those things to my daughter lol she's only 8 man. everything in it's time:)

Didn't say or think you were. But when you do teach her to use contraceptives and condoms, she will think that sex is inevitable.

and why should i ever forbid her to have a boyfriend?

I didn't say forbid her to have a boyfriend. Did I? Rereading my post.........Nope, didn't say it. But since you brought it up. Would it be a crime to allow her to have a boyfriend now? How about at 12? What if this boyfriend is a bad dude, a "playa," a "partier," --What if he's 22 and she's 15? Would you still think the same of this "right?"

a child is a child,born or unborn

Word up dawg! We agree on something. :-)

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), November 10, 2004.

""But when you do teach her to use contraceptives and condoms, she will think that sex is inevitable. ""

this make totally no sense to łe

so when we give our children the idea that sex is inevitable when we give them sexual education???

sex happens:)

they're gonna do it anyway,sooner or later

so we better teach them how to avoid pregnancy and diseases

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

Sean: "Goodness is it's own reward" as a goal for a 12 year old who is accustomed to an actual "reward" may be a tad unrealistic..at least in the short term. Kids are the ultimate pragmatists at that age..it's a little later when they begin to see themselves as part of a larger universe..in other words, self-centeredness isn't a bad thing for a pre-teen,to them, it's almost everything..That's why written behavior contracts work with them..they're nitpickers with wording. They key right in on loopholes like high-priced attornies. "But LOOK, you didn't write that I HAD to take out the trash by 8PM, you only said I had to take out the trash.So I took it out to the curb at 7:59 and the truck was already there. It's NOT MY FAULT..so since I took the trash out, where's my allowance?" The interesting thing about it is they truly believe what they're saying..they see "right from wrong" only as it involves themselves and what they want to do, or get. In order to teach them that they are, indeed, part of a larger scheme of things with personal accountabilty, a parent must patiently teach them cause and effect,make expectations VERY CLEAR, erase "loopholes", and yes, "reward" them..Rewards can be a mixture of tangibles and intangibles. Tangibles are obvious: privileges which are age-appropriate..Intangibles are not difficult, just more time consuming. Example: Your daughter goes a week without a single unacceptable behavior..her "rewards"? whatever privileges you permit her to have for that week, not given until the proof of her efforts have been verified/witnessed by you. The intangibles: Have her write down how she FEELS about being in better control of herself that week. It can be as much or as little as she chooses (be prepared for one word..LOL) Then have HER choose an adult who exemplifies that quality of self-control and have a family discussion about that person at suppertime..have HER present facts about that person and why SHE admires them. Conversely, if she doesn't do well, withold "rewards" lovingly but firmly..no yelling or lecturing needed..then she'll have to write how she feels about failing..(bummer). and she'll still have to find a person she admires who has those qualities she needs to have as an adult, etc. Don't ask her to look for folks who are failures..too negative. After awhile, she'll get used to examining her own feelings about self-control, mature coices, good role models etc. The more she realizes that she CAN control the outcome, the more likely it will be that she will begin to choose positive behaviors..and eventually, for the right reasons.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

this make totally no sense to łe...so when we give our children the idea that sex is inevitable when we give them sexual education??? ... sex happens:) they're gonna do it anyway,sooner or later

Sigh! First of all, I noticed you were bagging on Zarove's English in another thread. Please take your own advice.

Secondly, yeah sex happens, but it doesn't have to happen and it didn't "happen" until very recently. It happens ALOT more now than it used to. Despite the widespread availability of birth control, births from unwed 15-17 year olds tripled from 1960-1995 and among 18-19 year olds quadrupled during the same period. Which means that kids are having lots of sex, at least alot more than they used to. ut I guess in 1960 it was more accurate to say "abstinence happens" :-) And I suppose its just a coincidence that these increased rates of sexual activity occurred at the same time as birth control has become widely available and unstigmatized. (sarcasm)

so we better teach them how to avoid pregnancy and diseases

Right, by teaching them the consequences of fornication, with and without "protection." And its better to infuse your daughter with morals and respect for life and God's gifts, than to teach her how to use a diaphragm or a condom. There are alot of orthodox Christian kids out there who are living proof that pre-marital chastity is not impossible and is not a joyless, soulless existence. Quite the opposite actually.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), November 10, 2004.

Suzanne,

Thank you for both the kind words, the encouragement, and the facts as seen from a few years hence in my timeline. We have considered home schooling. We are too poor to home school, and not confident of being good teachers.

Lesley,

While we are not strongly into physical punishment (an experiment in our house that has mostly worked) I like the idea of how does it feel essays. And the homework contract is something I will look up.

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

Hi Sean. We had the same thoughts. Both of us were working and it still felt like we were struggling to make ends meet. I wasn't sure if I would have the patience to teach my own children and I wasn't sure I was "smart enough" or that I could convey my messege clearly to them. Well, we decided to go ahead and give it a try. At the time we lived in a horrible school district and the only private school close by cost nearly $3000 a year per student and I had 3 at that time. When I quit my job I became afraid, but after a while I realized a few things. There were quite a few things we could live without. My husband was the one paying the bills and I was working just to buy the lables and so we have done without things but it has been worth it. Our kids have benifited more from me being home with them than they ever did from having the extras. They have learned a valuable lesson in that as well. They learned that God does provide things that we need. They have a good home, clothes to wear, healthy foods to eat, and a wealth of love and devotion to their needs. I know at times they want the labels like some of the other kids in town get, but they really don't make a big deal over it. Sean, whatever you choose for your family I will pray for God's blessing on it. You have a good day and God bless!

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 11, 2004.

""Right, by teaching them the consequences of fornication, with and without "protection." And its better to infuse your daughter with morals and respect for life and God's gifts, than to teach her how to use a diaphragm or a condom. There are alot of orthodox Christian kids out there who are living proof that pre-marital chastity is not impossible and is not a joyless, soulless existence. Quite the opposite actually""

no i don't agree about this,i am NOT a christian and this is one of the reasons why

if my daughter wants to have sex when she's 15-16,i wouldn't have any problem with it,that is the most normal thing in the world and there is nothing wrong with that

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004.

moderators, please delete the above post which is a violation of forum rules by using vulgarity in this FAMILY oriented web forum.

In response, however, when you are fifteen you think you know everything, when you are twenty two, you realize how stupid you were and how much easier life would have been had you listened to your parents. You know whats best for you??? you dont even know the first thing about MOST aspect of adult life... which is proven by your irrational claims to have complete understanding of yourself. if you are the same person in five years that you are today, i tell you that you will have wasted five years.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 11, 2004.

if my daughter wants to have sex when she's 15-16,i wouldn't have any problem with it,that is the most normal thing in the world and there is nothing wrong with that

"Grandpa Anonymous" has a nice ring to it. Be prepared to settle into that role in about 7-8 years. You'll be what...34? Lots and lots of babysitting while she finishes school, works to support the child etc. Good luck!

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), November 11, 2004.

"if my daughter wants to have sex when she's 15-16, i wouldn't have any problem with it,that is the most normal thing in the world and there is nothing wrong with that"

A: Well, having sex is really the easy part. Presumably you would also be willing to make the following statements?

- if my daughter wants to have children she can't care for when she's 15-16, i wouldn't have any problem with it, that is the most normal thing in the world and there is nothing wrong with that

- if my daughter wants to have multiple abortions when she's 15-16, i wouldn't have any problem with it, that is the most normal thing in the world and there is nothing wrong with that

- if my daughter wants to have venereal diseases when she's 15-16, i wouldn't have any problem with it, that is the most normal thing in the world and there is nothing wrong with that

- if my daughter wants to die of AIDS when she's 15-16, i wouldn't have any problem with it, that is the most normal thing in the world and there is nothing wrong with that

- if my daughter wants to be seen as the town slut when she's 15-16, i wouldn't have any problem with it, that is the most normal thing in the world and there is nothing wrong with that

- if my daughter wants to be used and abused by immature boys who see her only as an available object for their own self-gratification when she's 15-16, i wouldn't have any problem with it, that is the most normal thing in the world and there is nothing wrong with that

One does lead to the other you know! If you can't make these statements you shouldn't make your original statement either. I won't even go into your daughter's chances of spending eternity in hell, since I know you can't relate to that reality. However, even without the spiritual aspects, the above realities seem like sufficient reasons to do all you can do to prevent your daughter from entering into such a tremendously dangerous lifestyle, rather than approving of it.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 11, 2004.

if my daughter wants to have sex when she's 15-16,i wouldn't have any problem with it,that is the most normal thing in the world and there is nothing wrong with that ------- Anonymous

Thank you to the 2 Pauls for your statements. Especially to Paul M. Everything you said was true. Anonymous, my oldest daughter was born one month exactly before I was 16. Lucky for me the father (who I am still married to) wasn't a total user. Lucky for me I didn't become a promiscious slut. Lucky for me my parents were willing to see me through school but still hold me responsible for raising my child. I went to classes, had a job, and raised a baby. I went on to graduate with honors and go to college. Now this may sound like a happy story, but let me tell you the story behind the story. I lost all of my friends. Their mothers and fathers wouldn't allow them to hang around with a girl who had had a baby. Before I got pregnant I was a cheerleader and in band. Not after baby....for one reason there was no more time for ballgames and the like and number two reason the school wouldn't allow pregnant teenagers or mothers to be on the cheerleading squad or in band. I lost all of my own self respect. It wasn't easy to look at the girl in the mirror who only 9 months before had a trim figure, shiny red hair that was combed and styled, dressed to a T, was one of the most popular girls in school who was now by all acounts a nobody. I was looked down on by my friends, their parents, AND teachers in school. I had to work hard to earn my grades. I was tired from school all day, work all evening, and trying to still find time to study and be a mother. Sounds fun doesn't it???? Also I happen to be an exception to the rule of teen mothers. Most don't finish school and live the rest of their lives in abusive situations and on the welfare system. Most girls who have sex at an early age get various STD's and are premiscious and pass it around to all those she has sex with. Do you know that girls who have sex with multiple partners at an early age have a greater chance of gettin cervical cancer? You want your little girl to get cancer and either have to have a hystorectomy or even die? You, my friend, have a long row to hoe in the very near future. They don't stay 8 forever and they don't stay innocent very long. Get a grip now before it is too late.

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 11, 2004.

it doesn't mean if she's having sex at that age that she's going to get pregnant,have abortions,become a slut,get aids and i don't know what else

i already posted that it's important that people use contraceptives and condoms,and know how to use them,that you make them clear how serious things as pregnancy and aids are

if they are not aware about that in that age,they will never be

normal 15year olds can relate between cause and consequence

forbidding sex to somebody with that age is a CRIME

all those things paul mentioned could also happen to 18year olds or even older,same thing

why is it so hard to accept that some ppl are more mature when their 15 than others will ever be in their intire life?

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004.

Anonymous, I really don't know what else to say to you except that if you think a child of 15 (or you are right a woman of any age), can't get pregnant while on the pill or contract STD's while using a condom then you are ignorant and blind to the truth. The condom while giving SOME protection isn't all that effective. Only about 70%. That leaves 30% of women and men who still contract STD's and or end up with an unwanted pregnancy. I and others have tried to make you see truth and you refuse to see it so there is no need in trying anymore. One day you will wake up and see that your daughter is in trouble and you will do one of two things....You will in total ignorance ask yourself why this has happened or you will tell yourself that this is your fault and wish you had been more stern with her and showed her love through discipline. Either way people like you shouldn't be allowed to raise children. Maybe I am wrong in saying this but for crying out loud man! You see no problem in your very young and immature child having sex and God only knows what else you condone. I pray that God will open your eyes and make you see the truth before it is too late and she falls through the cracks, and I pray for your daughter who is the real victim in your neglect of her moral and spiritual life. I am truly sorry for that child.....Holy Mary, pray for this dear sweet child that she may somehow find the way to a moral and spiritual life in your Son, Jesus Christ! -Amen

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 11, 2004.

"it doesn't mean if she's having sex at that age that she's going to get pregnant,have abortions,become a slut,get aids and i don't know what else".

A: True. But the point is, if she DOES get pregnant or have an abortion or become promiscuous or contract AIDS at that age - just like the thousands of girls every year who do so in spite of thinking they won't - it is because of the fact that she had sex. Right? Are you willing to take such chances with your own daughter? Smoking five packs of cigarettes a day doesn't mean you are going to get lung cancer either. But I don't see that as a reason for encouraging or allowing children to smoke. Do you? Russian roulette is not a game we should be teaching our children.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 11, 2004.

it's 97 percent and not 70...and with the pill much less...

plz save me of this crap

if she feels ready to have sex when she's 15 i won't forbid it to her

it's her right and i won't take it away from her

she's very smart and she'll surely understand the dangers of aids and the diffuculcy of having a child in your teen years

and i trully doubt that if we explain everything good to her that she'll have sex unprotected

and the risk then is inglegible and you can't ban because of that a thing like sex from your child's life

let's close our children 18 years in a room and never let them go anywhere,then they'll never get in problems and then we are the best parents in the world...is that your solution to everything?

you are here being ignorant not me

it's my child's right to do that

there is nothing wrong with sex and i told you already that you should do that when you are ready for it,some ppl are 15 and are ready and others are 20 and arent ready,it's not a matter of age

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004.

it's 97 percent and not 70...and with the pill much less...

WRONG!!!!! I AM A NURSE IN FEMALE REPRODUCTION AND YOU ARE WAY OFF BUD!!!!!!

if she feels ready to have sex when she's 15 i won't forbid it to her it's her right and i won't take it away from her

HER RIGHT?????? YOU REALLY ARE AN IGNORANT MAN !!!! YOU NEED HELP AND SOON !!!!! NO CHILD HAS THE RIGHT TO HARM HERSELF AND ANY PARENT WHO WOULD ALLOW IT SHOULD BE LOCKED UP AND THE KEY THROWN IN THE FIRE AND DESTROYED !!!!

she's very smart and she'll surely understand the dangers of aids and the diffuculcy of having a child in your teen years and i trully doubt that if we explain everything good to her that she'll have sex unprotected

I DON'T CARE HOW SMART SHE IS.....SHE WILL NOT JUST MAGICALLY KNOW THAT RAISING A CHILD WHILE STILL A CHILD IS HARD! SHE WILL NOT JUST SUDDENLY REALIZE THAT AIDS IS A BAD THING AND THAT SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE SEX! CHILDREN HAVE THE "IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN TO ME" MENTALITY! THEY NEVER IMAGINE THAT BAD THINGS LIKE UNWANTED PREGNANCIES AND STD's HAPPEN TO THEM! ALL THEY THINK ABOUT IS WHAT CAN I GET OUT OF SOMETHING NOW !!!!! ....SHE MUST BE TAUGHT AND DISCIPLINED WHEN SHE NEEDS IT !!!!!

let's close our children 18 years in a room and never let them go anywhere,then they'll never get in problems and then we are the best parents in the world...is that your solution to everything?

YES, LETS!!!!! CHILDREN SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO GO OUT WITH BOYS UNTIL THEY ARE AT LEAST 16 OR 17 DEPENDING ON MATURITY AND EVEN THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE RULES TO FOLLOW AND IF BROKEN.....YES, DISCIPLINE!!!! THEY SHOULD ALSO HAVE A CURFUE! THEY SHOULD BE HOME BY NO LATER THAN 10 MAYBE 11 IF A MOVIE IS OVERLY LONG AND THEY SHOULD CHECK IN AT HOME EVERY HOUR OR TWO. WE ARE PARENTS !!! WE ARE HERE TO GUIDE AND PROTECT OUR CHILDREN!!!!!!

you are here being ignorant not me

ACTUALLY BETWEEN YOU AND I, I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO SEEMS TO CARE ABOUT YOUR CHILD AND WHAT HAPPENS TO HER LIFE.....YOU SURE DON'T SEEM TO !

it's my child's right to do that there is nothing wrong with sex and i told you already that you should do that when you are ready for it,some ppl are 15 and are ready and others are 20 and arent ready,it's not a matter of age

TEACHING THIS TO HER IS TANTAMOUNT TO CHILD ABUSE !!!!!!! LIKE I SAID EARLIER YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS RAISING A CHILD. HER LIFE IS IN DANGER AS LONG AS SHE IS BEING RAISED IN A HOME SUCH AS YOURS !!!!

My prayers are with that child now and always.

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 11, 2004.

Even if the failure rate of condoms was "only" 3%, that would mean one failure in 33. If you have intercourse twice a week, that would mean 3 failures per year. Not very good odds when ONE failure can bring a new human being into the world - or kill you! Would you point a gun at your head and pull the trigger if there was "only" a 3% chance that the gun would fire?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 11, 2004.

Hi everyone

First about your problem with your daughter sean,i don't really think that those things you have mentioned are a big matter of morality,you should not worry about that too much but instead try to find what is behind those things and why she did it

Now about the other discussions that started here:

---'SCHOOL PUNISHES IDENTITY it's not there to teach your kid important stuff it's there cos of the system who wants to control the generations of the future and eliminate every single one who opposes to the majority and authority in general,who thinks different and wants to be different

it's there to bring ppl to 'discipline' while they're young,to make them obey and blindly follow the leader, instead of thinking with their own heads and question authority instead of simply obeying it-- -'

This is true,most school are like this and it's not healthy for a child's development to be tought to discipline in this kind of way

---'freedom is the essential for a good development of the identity of children,if u take away their freedom, u take away their souls the become nothing but a bunch of mental castrated robots,just another hopless bunch of bricks in the wall---'

Most parents don't realise this,freedom is the essential not only for the psychological development of a child,but also for a happy life and a good relationship between parent and child

---'i know we all love our children...but love without knowledge is like an airplane without a pilot...ready to crash--'

This is completely true,i couldn't said it myself in a better way

---'what a ridiculous concept!!! whoever said anything about being FRIENDS with your child? Thats not your JOB. You job is to be their PARENT... which is a subtley important difference. discipline is not to make them afraid of you, it is to teach the nature of consequence to them... you allow freedom where the true consequences are small enough for the child to handle, but when the consequences are large, or are escalating to greater and greater ramifications, it is the solemn DUTY of the parent to step in and cease the childs behavior, providing negative reenforcement if need be. you had better believe that as a friend, i dont let my friends drive home after a night at the bar... sure it may tick them off to no end when i take their keys, but they are still alive in the morning and that is what matters. sometimes, anonymous, doing the right thing is more important than allowing someone entire freedom to pick anything they want.---'

if you're not his friend,then you're his enemy,this is one beautiful concept and probably you are more your childs friend than you even realise

Ok,now about the teenage sex dillema

I don't know how it in your country is,but i live in france and the average age that teenagers have sex here is 15.8 years

That is completely normal and it is a teenagers right,it is not wrong,sex is not wrong,i know so many people who had sex with that age and didn't end up pregnant

No you can't lock somebody's soul up

That is wrong

Than you are being a bad parent no matter how much you love your children

Anonymous is right ,and i am happy to finally see someone who has a liberal,normal view on these kinds of things

Suzanne,all i can say is that i feel sorry for your children and that you live in the wrong century

They have a boyfriend till they are 17?

They have to be home at 10 o clock?

They can't have sex till they are 18?

It doesn't mean if you have bad expierences with teenage pregnacy that you have to react that way of on your children

-- Robert (tuneledoispasconnaitre@gmail.com), November 12, 2004.

First of all I do not live in the wrong century. I live by a set of morals set by a loving Father....God.....Be a good idea if you took time to get to know him. God is the same today as he was yesterday and will be the same tomorrow. He never changes and the way he asks us to live is no different today as it was 100, 500, 1000, or even 2000 years ago. Good morals carry through the generations.

Robert, you said......They have a boyfriend till they are 17?

They have to be home at 10 o clock?

They can't have sex till they are 18?

and I say.....No they can not date a boy until they are at least 16 maybe 17, yes, home by 10 possibly 11 if I am told in advance and why, sex at 18? Well, that will be fine if they are married and wish to do so, otherwise I would counsel against it, however at 18 they are legally adults and can follow their own wills. But my daughters have been taught about sex and marriage from a young age. I remember them asking where babies come from and sitting down to explain the birds and the bees. Letting them know that sex in a marriage and giving birth to children who have a MARRIED mother and father who love eachother and them is a beautiful thing. They have all pledged themselves to be pure until their wedding night! One of our daughters is even leaning toward a life of God....She has spoken to the Father in our parish about becoming a nun when she is old enough.

You also said.....It doesn't mean if you have bad expierences with teenage pregnacy that you have to react that way of on your children

I say.....I never said it was a bad experience, just very difficult. If I could go back to 15 and live that time in my life again I would wait a while. I would finish school, get married to my husband, and then have children. I would never trade any of my children for anything in the world....EVER!!! But I do wish I had followed God's word and not fornicated and I do wish I had been married and older before I started my family. I just happen to be a rare exception to the rule when it comes to teenage pregnancy, but I never could have done it alone. I had the support and love of my family and of my children's father.

Robert and Anonamyous, I will pray for you both to see truth.

Thanks and glory be to God!

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 12, 2004.

YES YOU DO LIVE IN THE WRONG CENTURY,NICE SAID ROBERT YOU HAVE LOST THE CHILD INSIDE YOU,IF YOU EVER HAD ONE

PPL LIKE YOU ALMOST DESTROYED MY ENTIRE YOUTH AND MY ENTIRE LIFE

I HATE YOUR KIND OF PPL,I DISRESPECT THEM AND I DON'T WANT TO KNOW THEM

GO BACK TO THE 19TH CENTURY AND TORTURE YOUR CHILDREN AS MUCH AS YOU WANT

YOU HYPOCRITE

'LETS ALL BECOME CHRISTIANS AND LETS ALL STAY VIRGINS TILL WE MARRY AND WHEN WE MARRY WE ONLY HAVE SEX WHEN WE WANT CHILDREN AND LETS BREED ONE GENERATION OF 'GOOD' CHILDREN WHO NEVER OPPOSE TO ANYONE AND DON'T THINK WITH THEIR HEADS BUT LET RELIGION AND OTHER PPL THINK INSTEAD

I'M SICK OFF ALL YOU STUPID CONSERVATIVE STEREOTYPE 'GOOD' CHIRSTIANS WHO NEVER CHANGED ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD AND ONLY MADE THINGS WORSE

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 12, 2004.

> "it's there to bring ppl to 'discipline' while they're young,to make them obey and blindly follow the leader, instead of thinking with their own heads and question authority instead of simply obeying it"

A: That's correct. Because children do not develop the ability to make sound rational judgements until they are older. Before that time they either OBEY the directions of responsible persons who can make such judgments, or they wander blindly into danger. They either OBEY the directive "don't approach strange dogs" or they get torn up by a pit bull they were trying to pet. They either OBEY the directive "don't talk to strangers" or they go for a ride with a man and his puppy and are never seen again. In the early formative years, obedience is the only safeguard children have against dangers they are incapable of appreciating rationally.

> "Most parents don't realise this,freedom is the essential not only for the psychological development of a child,but also for a happy life and a good relationship between parent and child"

A: In fact good parents have the common sense to know that freedom should be allowed only to the extent that a child is capable of handling it. Parents help a child develop the decision making ability that leads to freedom by offering the child choices - Which blouse would you like to wear today? What would you like for lunch today? However, when the temperature outdoors is 20 degrees, we don't ask "would you like to wear your winter jacket, or just a T-shirt?" We tell the child to put on his winter jacket, and if he doesn't want to, he doesn't go outside. Period. "Freedom" ends where his safety begins.

> "if you're not his friend,then you're his enemy,this is one beautiful concept and probably you are more your childs friend than you even realise"

A: That's absurd. Parents, teachers, doctors, police officers, clergy are not a child's friends. they are persons who have been placed in a role of authority, and are charged with maing decisions on behalf of a child who is incapable of making such decisions rationally for himself. That doesn't mean that such people cannot be kind, compassionate, understanding, and to some extent even "friendly" to the child, but always within the contect of authority. That's the only way a child can be safe. Friends are peers. Parents and their children are not peers.

> "I don't know how it in your country is,but i live in france and the average age that teenagers have sex here is 15.8 years. That is completely normal and it is a teenagers right, it is not wrong, sex is not wrong, I know so many people who had sex with that age and didn't end up pregnant"

A: I know many people who have played Russian roulette and survived. So what? Is that a reason to support their "right" to play Russian roulette? I know kids who have driven a car over 100 mph, and survived. I know kids who have taken drugs or drunk alcohol until they were unconscious, but survived. SO WHAT? The fact is, a large percentage of kids who are sexually active DO end up pregnant, damaged for life by abortion, sick for life with venereal diseases, or dead from AIDS. You either protect your children from these dangers, or you throw them to the wolves in the name of "freedom". Any parent who does the latter should be legally responsible for parental neglect and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. And they will also be held morally responsible before God. A fish in an aquarium has all the freedom it can handle. The only way it can get additional "freedom" is to jump out of the tank, into an environment that is lethal. Human beings are designed to live within the will of God. That is the only environment within which we can be truly fulfilled, truly happy, and experience true freedom. Excursions outside of that environment are always destructive and frequently lethal.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 12, 2004.

"WHO NEVER OPPOSE TO ANYONE AND DON'T THINK WITH THEIR HEADS BUT LET RELIGION AND OTHER PPL THINK INSTEAD "

this is true

religion is like this:

'i am convinced that sex before marriage isn't wrong and so using contraceptives,but then i hear that the bible and the church forbid it,i am scared that i will burn in hell,so i decide to remain a virgin until i marry and only to have sex when i want children

i didn't decide this because I was convinced that that was the right thing to do,but because my religion told me so and my religion is always right'

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), November 12, 2004.

Having an anonymous cow, now?

If ''I hate you'' is the best answer you could dredge up out of your toilet brain, then --Go ahead. Hate the good and approve your own damnation. You've been given free will by your Creator. You've had the hand of friendship and understanding extended to you in this forum. But all you offer in return is, ''I hate you.''

Go on, then. Burn all your bridges. Sooner or later God will send for you. You can hate Him face to face and He'll be merciful to someone else. --Suzanne? Robert? They aren't even anonymous here. They aren't afraid to post their names. They won't be afraid to go before God. YOU are afraid. Gutless and ready to hate anyone who gives a try at reaching your heart. But do you beat it out of here? NO. You hang around trying to sound BAD and COOL. Like an Eminem, without the cash. A LOSER. Ciao, Loser!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 12, 2004.

authority in general is the biggest cause of problems since the beginning of mankind

no person is better than one other and shouldn't stand above one other

robert is right with everything,but you are too conservative and religious to see that

and yes being friends with your child is a beautiful concept that should be every good parent's ambition

"The man of virtuos soul

commands not,nor obeys

power like a desolating pestilence

pollutes whatever it touches

and obedience

bane of all virtue,genious,truth

makes of the human frame

nothing but a mechanised automaton"

-- alexandra (.............@.............com), November 12, 2004.

i know so many people who had sex with that age and didn't end up pregnant

What a lame argument. I know so many people that age who drove while stinking drunk and didn't kill themselves or anyone else. Should we then let kids (or anyone) drive while stinking drunk?

Anonymous is right ,and i am happy to finally see someone who has a liberal,normal view on these kinds of things

Normal?--yes his views and yours conform to the accepted standard today, sadly. Liberal? Well, yes and no. My dictionary shows a couple of different meanings for liberal. One is "not strict, not literal." By this definition you and Anon are liberal, to say the least. But the other definition is "tolerant, broad minded." By this definition, neither of you are liberal.

Suzanne,all i can say is that i feel sorry for your children and that you live in the wrong century

See what I mean. You assume Suzanne's children are miserable because she imposes on them some (GASP!) rules. Oh the horror! Why, if her kids can't date until they're 16 or 17, or have to be home at 10 they must be suicidal, ready to explode. So much for broad mindedness. Apparently in your "liberal, normal view of these kinds of things," not allowing your child to have sex=locking up his or her soul. LOL! I guess I'd better save money for my own kids' psychiatrist bills after they get out of the house, since my household sounds alot like Suzanne's. I knew those were fake smiles and fake laughs. I just knew it. ;-)

It doesn't mean if you have bad expierences with teenage pregnacy that you have to react that way of on your children

By the same token, it doesn't mean if you had an unhappy childhood with harsh, unloving parents, that you have to let your own children running around making their own decisions about every little thing. What a parental cop-out.

Anonymous, I will say again, I'm really, really sorry about your childhood. That's no bs. You're still dealing with whatever your parents did to you. You've got alot of anger built up. My hunch is that you have a feeling that you're missing something --like God perhaps. Why else do you persist in posting messages on a "stupid forum" to "hypocrites" and "idiots" whose beliefs you hate and disrespect?

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), November 12, 2004.

I HATE YOUR KIND OF PPL,I DISRESPECT THEM AND I DON'T WANT TO KNOW THEM ---Anonymous

I love you and others like you.....My prayers are with you in hopes that your heart will be turned toward God our loving Father.

Hail Mary, full of grace the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. --Amen

Oh Holy Mother of God, pray for this man that his heart may be turned to your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ! --Amen

Thanks and glory be to God forever and ever ! --Amen

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 12, 2004.

""LETS ALL BECOME CHRISTIANS AND LETS ALL STAY VIRGINS TILL WE MARRY AND WHEN WE MARRY WE ONLY HAVE SEX WHEN WE WANT CHILDREN AND LETS BREED ONE GENERATION OF 'GOOD' CHILDREN WHO NEVER OPPOSE TO ANYONE AND DON'T THINK WITH THEIR HEADS BUT LET RELIGION AND OTHER PPL THINK INSTEAD

I'M SICK OFF ALL YOU STUPID CONSERVATIVE STEREOTYPE 'GOOD' CHIRSTIANS WHO NEVER CHANGED ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD AND ONLY MADE THINGS WORSE ""

what is your comment to this suzanne & co?

taking someones right to sexual activity is a CRIME and this has nothing to do with my youth,i always felt this way about it

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 12, 2004.

taking someones right to sexual activity is a CRIME

I see. Ok when your daughter turns 15, say she wants to have sex with a 40 year old man. Would you still feel the same way? How about an orgy with 5 guys? How about with another girl? How about making some money off of it--an internet site perhaps? Come on man, just where would you draw the line? Would draw it anywhere?

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), November 12, 2004.

"""religion is like this:

'i am convinced that sex before marriage isn't wrong and so using contraceptives,but then i hear that the bible and the church forbid it,i am scared that i will burn in hell,so i decide to remain a virgin until i marry and only to have sex when i want children

i didn't decide this because I was convinced that that was the right thing to do,but because my religion told me so and my religion is always right' """

THIS IS TRUE,still some normal people on the internet:)

it must be difficult to live surrended by these kinds of conservative people...

i really feel sorry for their children who have to deal and oppose to them and i feel even more sorry for their children who agree with them and don't see the truth...

PS:nice poem alexandra,and yes i believe in anarchy too,the main cause of problems is and always has been authority,but most people are just to sedated by their illusions and too ignorant to realise that....

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 12, 2004.

taking someones right to sexual activity is a CRIME..... Anonymous

Huh??? A crime? Have you completely lost all your senses? No, I can not tell a MAN or a WOMAN that he or she can not have sex, but a person who has AIDS or any other STD who continues to have sex with people and doesn't inform them of these illnesses can be prosecuted under the law, so yes sir, sex CAN become a crime. And my dear friend in several states any male over the age of 16 can come under investigation for sexual crimes if he has sex with a girl under the age of 14. And do you condone rape? That is a sex act, and it is a crime.

Oh Holy Mother of God, pray for this man that his heart may be turned to your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ! --Amen

Thanks and glory be to God forever and ever ! --Amen

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 12, 2004.

""say she wants to have sex with a 40 year old man. Would you still feel the same way? How about an orgy with 5 guys? How about with another girl? How about making some money off of it--an internet site perhaps? Come on man, just where would you draw the line? Would draw it anywhere? ""

that is something different...

i meant normal sex inside a normal relationship with someone likely the same age

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 12, 2004.

it is not right to forbid sex to 16year old,they are old enough to decide such things for theirselves,they are not little children anymore with that age,in many different cultures people start a family with that age

they bodies are completly the same as of adults concerning reproduction only it depends if they feel mature enough to have sex

you shouldn't forbid them that because of your religious ideas or the minimal risk to get stds or get pregnant while having sex protected

you shoudn't also forbid relationships to your children below that age,it doens't mean if they have a boy- or girlfriend that they are going to have sex immediatley

most psychiatrists and sexuologes agree with this

yes you are being very conservative and very primitive

-- alexandra (youdonthavetoknow@aaaah.com), November 12, 2004.

i don't think that the minimal chance of getting stds or to get pregnant is a reason to ban relationships and sex from your child's life...

neither your religion or personal traumas are

the chance of getting aids exist and does not depend on the age...

and if you have sex protected the chances on a pregnancy are very very small

you are being criminals if you forbid love or sex to your children,my opinion is that children should have given that right and that parents cannot decide certain things like this instead of their children

i also don't see why it would be wrong for a 16year old to stay later than 10 o clock outside...

children are given too little rights

i know how it feels when someone forbids you to have a relationship and you are being wrong people,you are being ignorant and selfish because you think you will be a bad parent if you do so,you don't care about what your child think and feels,you only care what the 'right thing to do is' from your point of view;you don't have the right to forbid such things to young people,16 year old are not little children any longer and what do you think how will they feel when all their friends can have boyfriends and girlfriends and go out at night and they can't

one day your children will hate you just like i hate my parents

remember these words

-- alexandra (youdonthavetoknow@aaaah.com), November 12, 2004.

I have nothing to say about this because Alexandra,Anonymous and Robert said it already all

You are trully being selfish and ignorant,when you are taking the most beauitful things :) away from your child's life just based on your personal opinions and not on facts

Sdqa: yes fanatic fundamentalists think like that, but there are also people who know how to interpret their religion and make their own judgement about things;after all faith and religion are two different things,what really matters is your personal relationship with God instead of just following the rules so you don't go to hell

-- Superjew (...@....com), November 12, 2004.

Dear Alexandra:
Nobody denies that a teenage person is ready for sex. But it has nothing to do with reaching the proper age. It's to do with responsibility. Marriage is the responsibility and the time for sex.

You call it primitive to expect a young lady to marry instead of sleeping around? Too conservative? I wouldn't. And since God doesn't give a fig about what your psychiatrist and psychologist say, we don't either. We care what God says. It's a sin to sleep around outside lawful marriage. A SIN.

Do psychiatrists tell us why we go bonkers? NO. They just ''analyze'' something for money. Psychologists give you a prescription for your bad dreams and hangups.

You get the hangups and breakdowns in later life on account of GUILT. You fight it, but it comes back in dreams and nerves and drugs and alcoholism. The feeling of being sick. Dirty. Impure BY CHOICE.

You won't admit it. But you choose the insecurity and the guilt, you do it to yourselves. Then when your life is falling apart, you lay on a couch and let a shrink fill you full of BS.

And, if you live just for sex-- Your life WILL fall apart. You'll ruin your life and damn your immortal soul. Your pride won't save you. You'll never be healthy or secure without God's love.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 12, 2004.

alex is right

it doesn't mean if you are convinced that premarital sex is a sin that you should forbid that to your children,they don't have to share the same religion as you do

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), November 12, 2004.

Children need guidance. Religion is part of that.

To you it means denying the child. It's being a good parent. To anyone with morals it means keeping them out of danger.

You speak like somebody already too corrupt to distinguish between good and bad. How did you wreck your life? Drugs? Prostitution? Crime? All of those and atheism to top them off-- Yeah.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 12, 2004.

what if your child doesn't have the same religion as you or smiply isn't religious at all,you are going to force him to believe and keep commandment in which he doesn't believe?

omg you people make me sick

-- Anonymous (youdonthavetoknow@aaaah.com), November 12, 2004.

i really feel sorry for your children...

-- Anonymous (myadressmustremainsecret@idiot.com), November 12, 2004.

But not very sorry, I suppose--

For your daughter. When all the guys call her a stupid bimbo behind her back? When they use her in one-night stands, and give her herpes? Cool Dad.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 12, 2004.

what if your child doesn't have the same religion as you or smiply isn't religious at all,you are going to force him to believe and keep commandment in which he doesn't believe? ---Anonymous

Ummmmm, Anonymous, do you believe that murder is wrong? Do you believe that stealing is wrong? Well, my friend, these laws that we are required to obey are based on the 10 commandments. By your statements we shouldn't require our children to follow these laws either because they aren't religious or don't believe in following the 10 commandments. You have a warped sense of reality, but I love you anyway and hope and pray that your heart will be turned to our Lord jesus Christ!

Oh Holy Mother of God, pray for this man that his heart might be turned toward your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ! -- Amen.

Thanks and glory be to God forever and ever! --Amen.

-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 12, 2004.

> "i don't think that the minimal chance of getting stds or to get pregnant is a reason to ban relationships and sex from your child's life..."

A: Minimal?? Where have you been hiding? Over 12 MILLION new cases of STD's per year, including 40,000 new AIDS cases, in the United States alone. This is MINIMAL? Over 800,000 pregnancies among unmarried teenage girls per year is MINIMAL? More than 1.3 MILLION abortions per year - over 3,500 per DAY - is MINIMAL? What would it take for you to recognize this as an epidemic??

> "the chance of getting aids exist and does not depend on the age ..."

A: That's right! Promiscuous adults are just as much at risk as promiscuous teenagers. Will that make you feel better when you or your teenage daughter becomes one of the 40,000?

> "and if you have sex protected the chances on a pregnancy are very very small"

A: Tell that to the 800,000 who became pregnant last year. I'm sure it will bring them great comfort to know there are others out there who are just as immature and ignorant as they were.

> "you are being criminals if you forbid love or sex to your children,my opinion is that children should have given that right and that parents cannot decide certain things like this instead of their children"

A: I agree that withholding love from your children is harmful. That's why children whose parents didn't care enough to impose rules and enforce them, but let their kids run wild, often grow up resenting their parents' lack of love and concern, sometimes even hating them for it. And guess what - They are right! During a time in their lives when they lacked the maturity to make good choices, their parents, whose responsibility it was to protect them, did nothing, or worse, actually supported their foolish desire to walk into dangerous, destructive, and deadly situations out of some nonsensical, perverted concept of "freedom".

> "children are given too little rights"

A: Children are given more "rights" and "freedom" today than at any previous time in history. And the rates of childhood pregnancy, abortion, AIDS, depression, suicide, homicide, accidental death, and criminal arrest are all at record high levels. And you want kids to have MORE of this deadly "freedom"? Your immaturity is showing.

> "16 year old are not little children any longer and what do you think how will they feel when all their friends can have boyfriends and girlfriends and go out at night and they can't"

A: No, 16 year olds are not little children. They are big children. How will they feel when their friends are out destroying themselves, and they are safe at home? Resentful, most likely - another sign of their immaturity. A better question might be - how will they feel ten years later when some of their friends are dead, some are suffering from incurable diseases, and others are struggling to raise children alone on their salary from McDonald's, while they are graduating from college, buying homes and entering into loving marriages. Thankful, if they have an ounce of sense.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 12, 2004.

""Ummmmm, Anonymous, do you believe that murder is wrong? Do you believe that stealing is wrong? Well, my friend, these laws that we are required to obey are based on the 10 commandments. By your statements we shouldn't require our children to follow these laws either because they aren't religious or don't believe in following the 10 commandments. You have a warped sense of reality, but I love you anyway and hope and pray that your heart will be turned to our Lord jesus Christ!""

that is not based on the 10 commandments but on the moral every normal person has in its heart

and about everything paul said:

if you are protected while having sex,those risks are minimal and that can also happen to 18 year olds,why should we make any difference about this between 18 year and 16 year olds? we all know that sexual maturity does not depend on the age

what you are telling is crazy

it is true what alex said, almost every pyschologist and sexuologist agree with this...only christianity knows better...sure..

-- Anonymous (ibelieveinanarchy@bastard.com), November 12, 2004.

Christianity has it from the best authority: God.
A psychiatrist can be zanier than his patients, you know. Over some 3 decades now, there've been a few who took advantage of disturbed patients to rape them during analysis. Would you have trusted these fools with the welfare of your own daughter? Probably, since the morals of a man are of little concern to you. No wonder you want to remain anonymous; you have no self-respect.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 12, 2004.

Actualy no...most Psycologists say one should NOT engage in sex, epseiclaly if your a woman, unless your in a logn term and cmmited relaitonhsip. Marirage is STILL seen as optimal...

And, by the way,Neither Paul M, nor anyone ehre aside form you, actualy think 18 year olds shoidl be havgn sex, protected or otherwise. We think yo shodl wait for marriage!

which is what ALL sexologist and Psycologists worth thei salt also say.

Promiscuity before marirage henders the chances of successful amrriag even wohout diseases and unwwanted pregnancies. It weakens the ability ot bond wiht a partner for life. ( As numerous studies have shown, try googlng up some...)

It likewise leav emotional scars and leads ot slefishnes. ( Usign sex for pleasure of onesself or gain, not as an expession of devotion to any given partner btu to fill ones own needs and desires.)

18 year odls shoudl avoid sex. So shoiuld 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, and 25 year olds until their married. And I for one thign 18 is too young for marriage!

The concseqences of sex before marirage i have also seen first hand, and it snot pelasant.

And even isung protection, you have the meotional issues to deal with, and th epycological.

Further, besides those, Protestion sin 100% and tose rists ar stoll high. A condo,n nly relaly offers 65% protection, the best may offer 75%.

the rest is dumb luck, the same as if you wherent protected.

No lad, your worng here.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 12, 2004.

Hi people

First of all i'd like to say that you should all have respect for each other no matter if your opinions differ or not

My opinion about this teenage sex discussion is that teenagers must decide such things by theirselves within a certain age

You can't raise your children forcing them to have the same religious ideas as you have and to keep the same commanments,they have the right to choose in what they want to believe and in what they don't want to believe and that doesn't make them bad or evil

Things like stealing and killing are matters of morale and off course you have to teach your children right from wrong but intercourse between teenagers is the most normal thing in the world and is not and issue of morale,but of your religious commandments and your own feeling about it

Like i already said you can't force your child to have the same religious ideas as you have so you can't forbid your children such things just because YOUR religion tells that it's wrong

My opinion about this teenage sex discussion is that teenagers must decide such things by theirselves within a certain age;the dangers of stds and getting pregnant don't depend on the age,so i don't see any reason why 18 year-olds should have the right to have sex and 16- year olds not

-- Superjew (...@....com), November 13, 2004.

Who suggested that 18 year olds have any more "right" to fornicate than 16 year olds?? NO unmarried person has any "right" whatsoever to engage in sexual intercourse under any circumstances. However, children who do so lack the maturity to clearly consider all the possible consequences of the sin. So do many older people.

> "First of all I'd like to say that you should all have respect for each other no matter if your opinions differ or not"

A: I agree completely. However, the fact that fornication is a serious violation of the law of God is not an opinion. It is a truth revealed by God, which He requires us to live by.

> "My opinion about this teenage sex discussion is that teenagers must decide such things by theirselves within a certain age"

A: Teenagers and everyone else must decide for themselves whether they will obey God or disobey Him. What parents are obligated to do is to provide their children with everything they need to make sound moral choices. After that, any immoral choices they make are solely their responsibility. But if parents have not prepared their children and taught them what is morally acceptable and what is not, then they are partially responsible for the sins of their children, and will have to answer to God for them.

> "You can't raise your children forcing them to have the same religious ideas as you have and to keep the same commanments,they have the right to choose in what they want to believe and in what they don't want to believe and that doesn't make them bad or evil"

A: No, choosing to believe that which is false doesn't necessarily make them bad or evil. Just misguided and in grave danger of losing their souls for eternity. No-one can force anyone to believe anything. But parents are obligated to teach their children the truth, and to instill in them a love for the truth, so that they will personally choose truth as the path they will follow.

> "Things like stealing and killing are matters of morale and off course you have to teach your children right from wrong but intercourse between teenagers is the most normal thing in the world and is not and issue of morale,but of your religious commandments and your own feeling about it"

A: That is ridiculous. Talk about a double standard! Who are you to say that stealing or killing are "wrong" while fornication is acceptable? Who set you up as the judge of my actions and beliefs? Maybe stealing and killing are wrong according to "your religious commandments and your own feeling about it". But how can you force that on me? Suppose I sincerely believe that killing and stealing are "the most normal thing in the world"? That would make such acts morally acceptable, wouldn't it? Aren't you claiming that personal conscience is the only valid guide to morality? Or are you now trying to place objective rules of morality on my moral choices while denying that such rules apply to you?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 13, 2004.

With stealing and killing you take somebody's freedom away paul;if you want have sex as a teenager you don't take anywone's freedom away (as long as your partner agrees with that)

If your child doesn't believe in things that you believe,you can't force him to keep the commandments that you keep

-- Superjew (...@....com), November 13, 2004.

'Who suggested that 18 year olds have any more "right" to fornicate than 16 year olds?? NO unmarried person has any "right" whatsoever to engage in sexual intercourse under any circumstances. However, children who do so lack the maturity to clearly consider all the possible consequences of the sin. So do many older people.'

This may be your opinion about it Paul,based on your religious beliefs;but we do not live in a theocracy so it IS somebody's right to do so,it is somebody's right to be a homosexual,satanist,gambler or prostitute or i don't know what else no matter how much YOU consider it wrong

After all,everyone is responsable for his own deeds

The Bible itself says everything is free for you to do,but not anything is for your own good(these may not be the exact words,but i think you get what i mean)

-- Superjew (...@....com), November 13, 2004.

Dear S-J--
Don't confuse the ''right'' with the preferable. Lawful isn't necessarily beneficial or natural.

''This may be your opinion about it Paul, based on your religious beliefs; but we do not live in a theocracy so it IS somebody's right to do so,'' ***as an example.*** Theocracy in statecraft means enforcing what God commands in the form of legislation. Nobody expects this in a free country. Catholics don't. But morality as a norm or ethic isn't dependent upon legislation. It strictly shows right from wrong, lawful or otherwise, everything that ought to be outlawed in our hearts. We don't even have to trace this belief to a religion. Some actions are patently unchaste, rebellious and/or animalistic. An innocent child can point it out; you don't need a priest.

For instance:
***** ''it is somebody's right to be a homosexual, satanist, gambler prostitute or I don't know what else-- ***** YOU SAY, ***no matter how much YOU consider it wrong--''**** When actually, those are base and offensive on the face of it-- even when legal. ''SOMEBODY'' being allowed to become an animal --may constitute a right. But it can never be decent. Mothers and fathers don't raise their children to lower themselves to the level of swine. No matter what the state allows. The Nazi state permitted genocide. Pure immorality, yet a right of the supremacists.

Then you said: ''After all, everyone is responsable for his own deeds,'' Correct. And, although the state won't enforce decency, nor will evil men outlaw indecency, --You and I have a conscience where true responsibilty rests. And God speaks to us in the conscience. The people of God demand good legislation not to impose religion but as a right coming to them; a civil right, equal to the rights of immoral people. We live side by side. Why should only the rights of the obscene or depraved carry weight in a free country?

Good people have rights as well. We vote. If the depraved can vote us OUT, let them. We are equal; with every right to vote THEM out. If decency were made a democratic choice it would win hands down. It's been thwarted in the west by appealing to secular Courts. Godless activists have cornered a willing group of judges, to misinterpret our Constitution. Why is the secular arm of the law any better than the religious will of the people? I can tell you, ''Super jew.''

It's only because God permits it, at this juncture. When has the world ever denounced sin? The world rejects God, who has created the universe. We're a fallen race, since the sin of Adam. Men gravitate to their lower nature.

But God gives us grace; those who reject nature's grasp and live by His Spirit.

We have his Word on it; He saves those who come to Him. He did it in the Old Testament giving us His prophets. He does it anew through Jesus Christ. ***OK, I realise you have the ready reply;*** Nobody has to believe if they don't want to.

No problem; God wants willing converts, not puppets. He won't twist your arm. He knows your soul better than you ever will. He offers to save you, it's all up to you. Give Him your heart and He'll do the rest. If you give the world your heart, the world will surely ruin you.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 13, 2004.