the bible says many many times,especially the gopsel of john that only those who believe in jesus will be saved

what about all the people who have a different religion, never heard about christianity or just simply can't believe in that???

no offense and i have respect for your religion,but this doesn't make any sense to me

what has faith do to with someone being a good or bad person?

if i intend not to harm anyone and do good and help everyone i can,why should i be evil then???

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 09, 2004

Answers

the bible says many many times,especially the gopsel of john that only those who believe in jesus will be saved

{Beleive in Jesus means what though? This is a deeper theological matte r than you realise...}-Zarove

what about all the people who have a different religion, never heard about christianity or just simply can't believe in that???

{For the former, there is a doctorine of " Invincible Ignorance"... this mezns that those who, through no fault of their own, fail to ever hear the Gospel and are thus Ignorant of it may, indeed, attain Slavation if they truely seek to Serve God in the way they know How... St. Paul himsefl speaks of this... As for the latter, why cant they beleive? Can they beelive enough to obey? Jesus said " If you love me, keep my commandments." Love God and Love Thy Neighbour, this is the law and the Prophets, the rest of the Bibel merley tells us how...}-Zarove

no offense and i have respect for your religion,but this doesn't make any sense to me

{No you dont, you stated how our rleigion killed pople and shou be abolshed in a former thread... that said, it makes sence if you think about it and get straight whats beign said and sicussed...}-Zarove

what has faith do to with someone being a good or bad person?

{Everythign and Nothing...depends on what you mean by faith. Z Husband is a bad husband if he violates his faith in his wife by havign an affair, but this doesnt mean he doesnt beleive she exists...

Faith in this context meaNS BELEIF AND OBEDEINCE TO AN IDEAL OR PRINCIPLE, AND FOLLOWING THIS TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABULITY, NOT MERLEY BELEIVING THESE THIGNS OT BE TRUE, SINCE EVEN sATAN AND HIS DEMONS BEELOIVE AND ARE IN HELL...}-Zarove

if i intend not to harm anyone and do good and help everyone i can,why should i be evil then???

{There are None righeous, no, not one... ever hear this oen before?

And the shrot answer is that righeousness coem form God, soobeying God is beign righeous. Disobedience is not beign righeous... its rellay not that hard...}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 09, 2004.

i meant the protestant religion... they were never a cult

maybe that shit in northern-island but those individuals(not the protestant church) who did that were using religion just to have a reason for they violence

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 09, 2004.

ok i got your point

but for example, sex before marriage is by christians considered as a sin

if i have sex before marriage,i don't harm anyone to my judgement...

i don't see why it should be wrong

how can i be judged then as a sinner because of this?

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 09, 2004.

i meant the protestant religion...

{Yeah Im not Catholic...I just post here... And again, you don understand th deapths, not all Protestnats teach " beleive and thats it" theology...}-Zarove

they were never a cult

{As opposed to...???}-Zarove

maybe that shit in northern-island but those individuals(not the protestant church) who did that were using religion just to have a reason for they violence

{Actually the war is about land ownership, but good to see you relaise this...}-Zarove

ok i got your point

{Do you now?}-Zarove

but for example, sex before marriage is by christians considered as a sin

{Yes.}-Zarove

if i have sex before marriage,i don't harm anyone to my judgement...

{You harm many people... you harm yourself, you harm the woman you have sex with, you harm the next man she has sex with, and the next woman you have sex with, and your eventual wife and her eventual hsuband...

See, studies have shown that Sex before marirage leads to many, many medical , emotional, and Psycological issues. Coupels who had sex before marriage, or had multiple parnters before marirage, are the elast liekly t be satisfied in marirage with only one partenr and are in a greater risk of divorce. women feel degraded and used by casual sex. Men tend to begin tot hink of their own pelasure rather than the woman, thus makien sex nto a vehicle for love, but slefishness. it increases a womans chance of ceetain kinds fo Cancer, and of coruse STD's run rampent...

Depression, neurosis, and feelign a lack of commitment in oens life are also improtant issues...

But I guess we can take your judgement...}-Zarove

i don't see why it should be wrong

{Then check the studies, tis clearly worng form a sicnetific voew as well...}-Zarove

how can i be judged then as a sinner because of this?

{ Because sin isnt the reuslt of arbitrary tules, btu what is and is not right, which is based on natural cause and effect relationships int he real world, not what you see as right or wrogn based on subjective opinion.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 09, 2004.

i am now almost 9 years together with my gf adn she wasen't the first i had sex with

i was young and did it with every girl that i liked lol

""""See, studies have shown that Sex before marirage leads to many, many medical , emotional, and Psycological issues. Coupels who had sex before marriage, or had multiple parnters before marirage, are the elast liekly t be satisfied in marirage with only one partenr and are in a greater risk of divorce. women feel degraded and used by casual sex. Men tend to begin tot hink of their own pelasure rather than the woman, thus makien sex nto a vehicle for love, but slefishness. it increases a womans chance of ceetain kinds fo Cancer, and of coruse STD's run rampent... """"

this may be true in some cases,but certainly not in all cases and certainly not in mine!

{You harm many people... you harm yourself, you harm the woman you have sex with, you harm the next man she has sex with, and the next woman you have sex with, and your eventual wife and her eventual hsuband...

i didn't harm anyone...we're happilly together,we love each other,we're damn perfect for each other, we have a child together, and we don't have to get married to stay commited to each other

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 09, 2004.

Dear Anonymous,

Nine years with this girlfriend, and committed to her, and with a child? Maybe you are more married than you realize....

May Christ guide your relationship to its perfect fulness in Him.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), November 09, 2004.

By the way, about your original question. Take the example of Cornelius, the Roman army officer in Acts chapter 10. He was not officially a Jew, and had not yet heard about Jesus and His death and resurrection. Yet, God was already pleased with Cornelius and heard his prayers. I would suppose that Christ was giving Cornelius the grace of prayer and of goodness, even though he had not yet heard of Christ. Still, according to Jesus, He alone is the Way of salvation (John 14:1-6). Yet it is also true that His light shines on all people, if they will only see it and respond to it (John 1:5,9). The important thing for you to consider, Anonymous, is, are you willing to acknowledge Jesus as the One who loves you so much, and is your Savior and Lord? And are you willing to submit yourself to Him, and love God with all your heart...?

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), November 09, 2004.

"we don't have to get married to stay commited to each other"

A: Perhaps. On the other hand you apparently want to keep the door open, just in case. If the door remains open, someone will usually make use of it sooner or later.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 09, 2004.

"we don't have to get married to stay commited to each other"

A: Perhaps. On the other hand you apparently want to keep the door open, just in case. If the door remains open, someone will usually leave through it sooner or later.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 09, 2004.

i don't believe in jesus

just because it is said in the bible about all his miracales,ressurection,that he's the messiah who died for our sins,the son of god....it doesn't have to be true

i think that there is more than this life,this world these ppl...but what exactly i can't really tell

i agree with jesus' teaching on many aspects, and i certainly think we could all learn something from him,but i also don't agree with some things...

i don't believe and i don't know why i should believe,but after all it is not a matter of choice,it's just how u look on certain things,and i am just like this

the bible itself says that faith is not given to everyone

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 09, 2004.

no it's just that marriage is something more religious and old- fashioned and traditional and we're not really like that

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 09, 2004.

Anonymous:
Are you very particular about what you believe or don't believe? If I were to tell you, ''Your little daughter is floating in the neighbors' swimming pool, head down,'' Could you think-- ''I don't believe it.'' --? Or would you try to find out if Eugene is telling the truth? You would have to run next-door.

Maybe when you went there, you'd find the child playing in a sandbox with the neighbors' daughter. Then you could call me a liar.

This is because you were not particular about what you associate with love for your daughter. Anything having to do with her, you would make sure of; you wouldn't leave it to chance.

We love God more than our own lives here. He's our Father. He will never deceive us, and it is He who revealed Himself; we have to believe Him. This was always so in the Catholic Church. Here we were brought to love God, through His Holy Son. We know Jesus was given up to death on the cross for all of us. He even prophesied it beforehand to his followers. He explained to them that He would die and then rise again on the 3rd day. This was easily seen or NOT seen. If He died and came back from the dead, all would know for certain He told the truth. If not, they would never have believed all the other great things He revealed, especially one thing: eternal life following our life on earth. For all who truly believed in Him. We will live a life without end, the eternal reward for loving God!

Many living persons saw Jesus on earth, after His resurrection. There was no doubt. They carried the word to all the world. They gave that truth to us by His Gospel and the Church.

Most importantly, a great number of them from the beginning died for their faith. They were crucified, burnt alive, boiled in oil, thrown to the lions, etc., and despite these horrors they kept the faith. They would not deny Christ. That is the legacy of the saints and martyrs. If you can't take the written word from the Bible; don't explain away the testimony in blood of literally thousands who spoke for Jesus in the world. It cost them EVERYTHING, to bring you the truth.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 09, 2004.

One thing... Faith isnt "Given" to anyone, it is soemthign we offer...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 09, 2004.

zarove,that sentence i found in the bible...

to eugene:

my opinion about jesus is that he brought a lot of new ideas that were disturbing the religious authorities in that time(the reason why he was crucified),and a lot of ppl followed him and admired him

because of that they made many myhts up about him that were later written down by ppl who never even met him

the gospel of thomas(found in 1945 in egypt near nag hammadi)is the oldest gospel and is written by one of jesus' apostols and was never accepted by the church! because jesus doesn't mention anything about being a son of god,or doing any miracles in it while we can find there many other things that we also find in the original bible

why couldn't it be that the jewish authorities made that 'son of god' thing just up to manipulate the ppl and have a reason to crucify him for example

he was a mystical person and ppl often associate miracles and myths with these kind of ppl

but anyway, the whole idea behind christianity seems too shallow to me:that god sends his son to die on a cross so that we can be forgiven...sorry but that's my opinion

ok but lets say that that all is true, but what am i doing wrong now if it seems to me too unreal to believe it?

good ppl are good ppl,no matter in what they believe or don't believe...

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

You start off with a false premise:
''my opinion about jesus is that he brought a lot of new ideas that were disturbing the religious authorities in that time(the reason why he was crucified),and a lot of ppl followed him and admired him.''

What has your opinion about Jesus have to do with God's revelations? Either He revealed Himself and it's recorded for us; --by Old Testament prophets, later by Jesus and the Church of the apostles.

--Or His followers ''made up'' their tale of Jesus, a man who died and was raised from the dead.

YOU are called to decide which it is. Not to give an unrelated OPINION. You know what they say about opinions? ''They're like --- holes, everybody has one.''

But everybody does NOT have the word of thousands of souls who gave up everything to follow ONE Man-- Who would die willingly to keep up a myth? Were they all fools?

They believed in one man,/u>, who could raise people from the dead, in front of dozens of witnesses. Who healed lepers, ten at a time. Who gave sight to a man blind from birth in front of hundreds of witnesses; hostile witnesses who hated Him. Jesus did all these wonders IN PUBLIC.

his followers accepted martyrdom under the Caesars, and you can visit their tombs today in Rome and other cities. Go see the catacombs. That's where the first Roman Catholics worshipped God in secret, celebrating Holy Mass underground. Get off your pants and investigate; what's it all about?

I'm not making this up. This is not my ''opinion''. It's historical fact.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 10, 2004.

the bible is a religious book;not a history book

it does not have to be true just because it is written down there...

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

zarove,that sentence i found in the bible...

{where? Faith is an Action. God cant give us actions... we perform them...}-Zarove

to eugene:

my opinion about jesus is that he brought a lot of new ideas that were disturbing the religious authorities in that time(the reason why he was crucified),and a lot of ppl followed him and admired him

{As eugine said, this is irrelevant... the real queatsion is, is what he taght true, and was he who he claiemd to be? Answerign this based on opinion and not study is a fallacy.}-Zarove

because of that they made many myhts up about him that were later written down by ppl who never even met him

{False. First off, nothign int he Gospels is "Myth". Even if you doubt parts, such as the Miracles, this woudl amke them legend and not myth, sicne its unqueatsioend by seriosu historians that Jesus existed and that the Histories are equivolent enough to say the Gsopels are faily accurate. Myth? You arent relaly well versed in what a myth is. Likewise, the Gospel of John was written by John, who DID meet him, Luke met the pther apostles and worked with direct eyewitnesses. Modern shcolars cast doubt on Matew and Marks Gospel as far as authorship, but the Hisotry of consistant wiht the other records. }-Zarove

the gospel of thomas(found in 1945 in egypt near nag hammadi)is the oldest gospel and is written by one of jesus' apostols and was never accepted by the church!

{Odd. You reject the 4 canonical Gos;es as they where wirrten by peopel who didnt even knwo Jesus ( even though John ewas his apostle and did know him...) yet you accept Thomas as authored by Thomas? You do relaise that this " Oldest of the Gosels" doesnt date back to 30 or 40 AD, right? The oldest extant copy is second Century, nto first... and it is not clear when exaclty it was written, byt declaring it the oldest Gospel is not relaly sound, sicn emodern Shcolars say MArk is the Oldest Goslel, poossibely written as early as 40 AD, a decade after Jesus. Thomas was likely not written by the apsotle Thomas, and is certainly not the oldest of the Gosels.}-Zarove

because jesus doesn't mention anything about being a son of god,or doing any miracles in it while we can find there many other things that we also find in the original bible

{Uhm..."Origional Bible"? The Bible didnt exist until 365 AD. There isn't much in the Gospel of Thomas that sitn copied out of Mark, or the other synpitc Gospels,a nd those thigns which are foufnd in it that arent foufnd int he other Gospels are queastioanble and lean toward Gnbostism, a second Century Heresey, which lends weight to thinkign of Thomas as a second Century Document, and a forgery as far as authorshipo, rather than "The Oldest of the Goispels".}-Zarove

why couldn't it be that the jewish authorities made that 'son of god' thing just up to manipulate the ppl and have a reason to crucify him for example

{Because if they had just made it up, why woudl his followers then claim Jesus actually said it? I mean, relaly, they where all called blasphemers for sayign jesus was the messiah and God Incarnate, why not, early it eh mvoement, deflect the blame and make their persecutors, the Priests and Pahrasees, look bad by sayign they lied about Jesus and his claims? Logically, if the followrrs claimed he said it and it was contraversial, then it is more reasonable to beelive he acutlsly did say it.

Likewise, Jesus wasnt killed fr claimign to be the Son of God, he was killed for claimign o be the King of the Jews, this was sedition tot he rmans. The ormans coidlnt care less about the Jeish rligiosu beleifs.}-Zarove

he was a mystical person and ppl often associate miracles and myths with these kind of ppl

{Do they? Odd... did you know Jesus was acutlaly very prteactical? }- Zarove

but anyway, the whole idea behind christianity seems too shallow to me:that god sends his son to die on a cross so that we can be forgiven...sorry but that's my opinion

{ You consider semone dying for us shallow? What in the name of all that is Holy woidl be deeper than God sendign himself to sacrifice himself so wretches liek us can be saved? He taught us love and gave the world the new concpt of Fogrigness and Grace, and you consider this shallow???}-Zarove

ok but lets say that that all is true, but what am i doing wrong now if it seems to me too unreal to believe it?

{ Living in a way that is destructive toy our midn and body.}-Zarove

good ppl are good ppl,no matter in what they believe or don't believe...

{True, but at the same time, if you where a good person you woidlnt have an illegetimate Daughter. I mean, relaly, think of HER future, and yor Girlfriends. You arent beign a good person, you are being abusive and not relaising it, because you arent givign them a full life, just part of one wiht no real commitment, based n your selfish desire for liberty and your selfish lakc of regard for givign them security and assurance.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 10, 2004.

first learn to type english

because reading your english isn't very easy

second:

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO JUDGE ME?

what the hell has my daughter's future to do with marriage?

so many married ppl end up divorced eventually

and why should it be wrong that i don't want to get married in church that i don't believe in or in front of a state that almost ruined my entire life

i'm married and comitted to my gf in my heart more than every single one of you will ever be

you think that you are better just because you are a christian and following "god's" rules?

who the hell do you think you are?

f*cken stupid conservative stereotype christian

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

first learn to type english

{I am typing English, but am Dyslexic, show some manners.}-Zarove

because reading your english isn't very easy

{And reading yours is?}-Zarove

second:

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO JUDGE ME?

{I judged the situatuon and motives, not the state of your soul. I am a concerned individual with knowledge.}-Zarove

what the hell has my daughter's future to do with marriage?

{Plenty, if you woidl bother to read the studies, listen to testemonials of other daughters who grew up as you are makign your daughter, and look at the facts objectively.}-Zarove

so many married ppl end up divorced eventually

{which is not an excuse for your own immorality. Other peopels actiosn do not negate our duties and responcibilities as adults.}- Zarove

and why should it be wrong that i don't want to get married in church that i don't believe in or in front of a state that almost ruined my entire life

{RThere are other avenues, and beodes, you make other such declaraitosn before state... such as paying taxes. Why is this different, except you seek not to make a final commitment.}-Zarove

i'm married and comitted to my gf in my heart more than every single one of you will ever be

{ You presume to know me? You declare that I am incapable of the level of commitment you have with your Girlfriend, and you know this how? Commitment to me is probbely more meanignful than to you, and this I know fom your spirit of rebellion. Besides this, you declared three or four times that you are nto married to her, so now you say you are. which is it lad?}-Zarove

you think that you are better just because you are a christian and following "god's" rules?

{As I said before, none are righeous. All I claim is that consequences exist to actions that we perform. eevery action results in an equel and opposite reaction. It is a law of nature, and oen we cannot overturn. I say only that your ations are goign to, in the end, lead to more ruin and pain than you scurrently realise. I never declared myself betterthan you.}-Zarove

who the hell do you think you are?

{Zarove. Who are you t presume that you cancommit on a deeper level than I can? who are you to presume my beelifs? who are you to mock what I beelive in? who are you to speak in such ignorance and rebellion about how superior your way of lif eis on a Catholic messge baord, and then fly into so much sound and fury hen disagreed with and facign an opposing veiw?}-Zarove

f*cken stupid conservative stereotype christian

{Oh Im harldy stupid lad, and harldy a sterytype. But you certainly are a Hypocrite for your judgdmental and discriminatory behaviour, which shows mental instability and th eneed to vlaidate yourself before us.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 10, 2004.

marriage is not a condition for a true,everlasting love

love is love

commitment is commitment

marriage is a (religous)tradition

do you really think that i would spend 9 years of my life with someone that i don't love?

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

marriage is not a condition for a true,everlasting love

{ bUT IF YOU LOVE SOEMONE, YOU WILL DO THE RIGHT THING FOR THEM. Marriage is an extension of love, though not always. If you truely loved your Girlfriend, you would seek help to overome the pain of your past. ( I know the pain. I had an abusie, controlign mother as well, and the state ruined my life, but I do not operate wrecklessly.) You can marry for the wrogn reasons, or marry not for love, but if you love the girl, marriage is the righ thting to brign a bindign security. It woiudl prove commiment and not just a livign arrangement where sex happens.}-Zarove

love is love

{And what part of love is served by noit commiting ot the other prson? By merley havign them as a live in sex partner whom you tlak to as a friend? Is that a better expresison of love than a complete commitment?}-Zarove

commitment is commitment

{But you have no commitment, you only have the desire to remain with her. ou can leave any timde. You arent boudn to her. Again, I ask, is this rellay about lvoe and commitment, or about your disdane for commitment and social sturctures that you distort because of abuse?}- Zarove

marriage is a (religous)tradition

{Marriage exists in the most hostile to religion enviropnemtns you can find. Its not a traditio, its a absic Human nessesity. studies indicate peopel are helathier and happier in a stable marriage than livign togather, last longer as a couple, are less likely to seperate, feel more secure, and privide a better environemtn for htier chodlrne, as wlel as provide stabulity for society as a while. Marriage is the mist basic Human instetution extendign back as far as Human hisotry, and is not a mere tradiiton and is not spacificlaly rleigiosu in charecter.}-Zarove

do you really think that i would spend 9 years of my life with someone that i don't love?

{ Unliek you, I make no presumptions. You have., however, dip;lays arrogance, pride, and the willignness to use your pain as a crtch in life to avoid responcibilities every adult has to face. this is unhealthy.

You say I can never be as commited to anyone as you are to your gurlfirend. You din retrac this statement or apologise, it is liekwise base don empotion and the need to feel mrolaly superior.

You nee totear into the moral codes of others sicne you where hurt by "The system".

ell, I was hurt by it too, this doesnt mean I reject it lock, stock, and creal box as you have.

Please, get over your pain and ourself and try to realise that the loing term consequences of your acitosn arent nessisarily as pelasant as you will beleive them to be.

Stop lashignout at others, making derogetory comments, and accusatioins, based on assertiosn you cannot prive, and seek a eman to live your life in accordance ot that which is good.

Selfishness, in not marryign your Girlfriend, rather you liv her or not, is selfishness still. If you are remaiign with her, why not marry her? Let us reverse this queatsion.

What ehnders you form marrying her? Aside fom your own distrust of the system and need to feel free? Isnt placign the pain of your past above your girlfriend and standard morality, as well as th benefit of your child, selfishness as I have stated?}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 10, 2004.

sorry if i hurted your feelings zarove,you hurted mine as well and you did it again with this comment below,but nevermind,...

"{But you have no commitment, you only have the desire to remain with her. ou can leave any timde. You arent boudn to her. Again, I ask, is this rellay about lvoe and commitment, or about your disdane for commitment and social sturctures that you distort because of abuse?}- Zarove

no

i have commitment,i am bound to her,i can't imagine a life without her,she and my daughter mean the world to me

me and you just have a different view on marriage

don't you know that married people can divorce anytime,anyplace, just like unmarried couples can split up

so for me there is not really a difference between being married or not

we just don't want to do it cause we think that we don't need to go to a church or to a city hall and promise each other that we'll always gonna be together and write it down on some piece of paper

the only true promise that would ever count for us it the one you make in your heart and that makes marriage superfluous to us

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 10, 2004.

Hi Anonymous. Guys please stop fighting, you really could talk or debate one another being less judgmental. We really have to whatch our pride, myself included.

Anonymous, I was once an athiest and despised God and Christianity. I had a rough early life and times were hard. I could not understand what was wrong with sex before marriage if you truly loved the woman. Nor could I understand if God really exsist, then why doesn't He show Himself or stop the violence of the world? Yet as time went on a friend of mine began talking to me about God. I got interested and began investigating Christianity for myself. I began by reading many archeology insights on Christianity. It's really AMAZING! There are NUMEROUS! Many skeptics of the Bible and Christianity have even come to believe because of overwhelming archeology discoveries and even Old Testament and New Testament scientific insights thousands of years before they were world-wide facts.

Soon I began reading the Bible itself (check out the book of "Proverbs" and "Psalms," they are so beautiful) and studying Catholicism and it's amazing history. The lifes of the Saints and Martyrs and all the things Catholic Christianity offers.

I am now a practicing Catholic and God has answered me many questions I had. I understand and it's awesome! Praise God!:)

Check out the archeology book "The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDOWELL. It's a wonderful book. Check out the lifes of the Saints, especialy St. Agustines "Confessions" and a biography on St. Francis of Assisi, my most beloved Saint. Read the Gospel of John and the book of Genesis. Visit a Catholic Church and talk to a priest. I know many wonder fathers and always find faith talking to them.

Perhaps the Lord God will bless you and give you Faith. It's a beautiful and awesome thing. God bless you my friend.

May the Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you:)

-- Jason (Enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), November 10, 2004.

Jason- with me this sin abotu prode. it is rather about correcting error.remember, he made the attacks. he presumes intention and presumes charecter withotu relaly beign inereste din listening, and all he says I have heard before.

Bow, anonymous-

sorry if i hurted your feelings zarove,you hurted mine as well and you did it again with this comment below,but nevermind,...

{ I did not say anyhtign to hurt yor feelings, I only point out the universal realities. I relaly do want you to think about this, rather than use your queatsiosn in their unanswered state to justufy yourself and your actions. There are answers, these arent just rules we fllow blindly.}-Zarove

"But you have no commitment, you only have the desire to remain with her. ou can leave any timde. You arent boudn to her. Again, I ask, is this rellay about lvoe and commitment, or about your disdane for commitment and social sturctures that you distort because of abuse?"

{Again, this sin much of a queatsion of me beign abusive to you, it is a legitimate queatsion. Why NOT Marry her? why NOT make this commitment, both personally and socially, if NOT due to your distrust of the system? How is not marryign soemone more lovign than doign so?}-Zarove

no

i have commitment,i am bound to her,i can't imagine a life without her,she and my daughter mean the world to me

{ Then I have to ask again, why not marry her and demonstrate that love in a bindign way?}-Zarove

me and you just have a different view on marriage

{ You have no veiw on Marriage, and my veiw is the standard definition, and research, and years of experienc ein humanity.}-Zarove

don't you know that married people can divorce anytime,anyplace, just like unmarried couples can split up

{Harldy. Lets fsce raw facts here. If you and your girlfriend decided to split up, you woidl just walk ou the door and thats it. Its far more compelxe with married coupled in the legal aspects.

Legality aside, emotional diffeences betwen marrage and nonmarried livign situaitosn such as your clealry demonstrate that, once a frmal commitment is made, the lieklyhood of seperation is REDUCED. Currently, yuo essentially have a freind whom you have sex with and lvoe to be around. its all based on emotionalism and conveience. It is NOT a commitment, since the only thign holdign it togather is your continued desire to be ther.

Marriage is not abotu sharign a livign space and hacign sex, tis abotu sharign every aspect of ones life. You may think that its the same, btu if you ever work up th curage to relaly commit to this woman, you will relaise marriage is radiclaly different than just livign togather. its mor stabilising.}-Zarove

so for me there is not really a difference between being married or not

{ Then you havent checked the reality.}-Zarove

we just don't want to do it cause we think that we don't need to go to a church or to a city hall and promise each other that we'll always gonna be together and write it down on some piece of paper

{Its far more than that lad... again, the psycological difference alone makes Marriage preferable. rught now all you have is a girl you live with, have sex with, and talk to. You may even help put withhte bills. You do not, hwoever, have a bindign relationship, which ONLY marriage can provide. Need I post the studies?}-Zarove

the only true promise that would ever count for us it the one you make in your heart and that makes marriage superfluous to us

{Again, then the whoel thing is based on how you feel, and is not rellay the same as commitment. its all based on emotion, and conveneince, and not on any real deapth. what if one day you dotn feel so great abot her, or you hit hard times? That is more a measure of commitment than feeligns in your heart.

Likewise, i stand by what I said, you arent commited, you just live togather.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 10, 2004.

zarove,any further discussion with you is useless, i already told you everything i had to tell you,but you just can't accept other ppl's differences

you judge me and without any reason,you don't know me,you don't know anything about my relationship,just because me and my gf don't like marriage you are telling that our relationship is wrong and that we're not commited to each other

don't you see how low you are?

jason,thanks for the information,i'll certainly look those things up that you have told me

i was once a christian also,a long time ago,but i got very very dissapointed in it when i became more mature and i realized that i don't want an useless burden on my shoulders and that religion and faith don't really have something to do about true morale and goodness

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004.

Please--!
this is not someone who ought to claim, ''any further discussion with you is useless,''--

Talk of the hardest stone wall. And so anonymous; protecting his precious ''privacy''.

Living as if there were no tomorrow is too obviously foolish; it's the way flies live. So anonymous declares endless love for the woman he won't marry. His youthful passion is quite enough.

But may God console her as her age begins to bring new problems. Too fat? Double chin? Too gray, or wrinkling? Getting ill and can't work as hard?

Any of those bad vibrations and he'll start looking up & down the street for dates on the sly. So that very properly he'll say to himself: ''I ain't married. What's wrong with seeing a young lady this evening? NOTHING- -!'' Just another selfish fly.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 11, 2004.

you people make me proud on myself and my family and make me realize how happy i actually am

thanks for that:)

how much i love the looks of my gf it is still nothing towards what i feel for a her as person and how much i adore her personality and the way she is inside

but yeah i'm scrared of getting old as hell i admit it,i guess that dieing young and happy is just better than being old and empty,waiting every second when death will come to pick you up

but i'm really wondering what love to you people means?

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004.

A formal MARRIAGE, Doofus.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 11, 2004.

zarove,any further discussion with you is useless, i already told you everything i had to tell you,but you just can't accept other ppl's differences

{i'V HEARD THAT BEFORE, USUALLY FORM PEOPEL LIEK YOU WHO CANT STAND THE FACT THAT YOUR EIW ISNT ACCEPTED AND VALIDATED EMIDEATLEY. i CAN ACCEPT DIFFEWNT VEIWS OR ELSE i WOUDLTN POS ON THIS BAORD. aS NOTED, iM NOT cATHOLIC, AND MUCH IN cAHTOLISISM SEEMS TO DISAGREE WITH MY BELEIFS. However, I am respectful of the diffeences.

You don want ot present differences and discuss them, you want to be vlaidated, which is impossible since practicle reasonign rules out your behaviour as healthy, and leads ott he conclusion that it is, in the end, destructive and empoty.}-Zarove

you judge me and without any reason,you don't know me,you don't know anything about my relationship,just because me and my gf don't like marriage you are telling that our relationship is wrong and that we're not commited to each other

{I didnt judge you, I did, however, comment on the situaiton. Need I remidn you, you said that I and others here woudl never be in a relationhsip as commited as you are to your girlfriend. This si Hypocracy to claim that I am judgrmental sicne you are the oen makjgn the presumptions.

what I said was that your argumens are shallow, yor reasoning equelly so, and yoyr actiosn stem, form what you have tld me, form bad expwrinces and pain in chidlhood and a selfihs need to disconenct form authority and live outside of it.

Selfishnes sis not love.

Sayign this is less condemnaiton to you and a fact you refuce to confont.}-Zarove

don't you see how low you are?

{The real queatsion is, do you? By makign attack son my charecter for disagreeign with YOU you becoem a Hypocrite. You judgd me without knowign anythign abitu me and, again, played the hypocrite for sayign I judged you.

The reality is this, you are projecting.

Im not beign low, Im actually beign fiurm in my knowledge and convictions.

The only reaosn yo do not marry your girlfriend, by your own admision, is because you do not liek authority. This is a slefish reason, not one motivated by love.

How am I low for stating this fact? Or other facts?}-Zarove

jason,thanks for the information,i'll certainly look those things up that you have told me

i was once a christian also,a long time ago,but i got very very dissapointed in it when i became more mature and i realized that i don't want an useless burden on my shoulders and that religion and faith don't really have something to do about true morale and goodness

{Then explain why you dont do the riht thing and make a formal commitment? Explain why, if religion adds burdens ot peipels lvies, converts reveal how much happier they are.

Chrisainity removes burdenrs, and the only biurden it asks of you is to bare your own weight and to do the right thing, wich you refise out of pain and pride.

You where never Christain, you don even know what the wrd means.}- Zarove

you people make me proud on myself and my family and make me realize how happy i actually am thanks for that:)

{ Seen talk liek this before. You are trying to make us feel angry while appearign to win, when in fac this is a cover for your own lack of ability to rlaly discuss the issues you raise. And need I remidn you you came here and raised them, so you obviously desired soemthing, such as validaiton form us. You arent happy, or else you woidltn need this.}-Zarove

how much i love the looks of my gf it is still nothing towards what i feel for a her as person and how much i adore her personality and the way she is inside

{ But since tis based entirely on emotionalism, what when times get rought will you relaly do?}-Zarove

but yeah i'm scrared of getting old as hell i admit it,i guess that dieing young and happy is just better than being old and empty,waiting every second when death will come to pick you up

{ But can you be old and fulfilled? I know many aged peoel who are...}-Zarove

but i'm really wondering what love to you people means?

{Love emans sacrifice and joy. It means acutlaly carign about the other person, and not simpley carign how the other person makes you feel. It means the willignness to fight and die fo one another, in the face of great oppresion, even if the others mock and spit upon you. It means genuinely placign the others before yourself, and not placign them on a level of improtance based soely on your own feelings you have inside.

Love is commitment, and a choice,not an emotion.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 11, 2004.

love is just a feeling

-- ujerz (ujerz@yahoo.xom), November 11, 2004.

marriage is not the condition for a true love

a true love is perfectly possible without marriage

i told you aldreay what my view on marriage is

""""{ But since tis based entirely on emotionalism, what when times get rought will you relaly do?}-Zarove """"

on what else should a relationship been based than your feelings for each other?

ujerz and zarove,love is a feeling that you have towards someone and many other things come along with it like zarove mentioned,i agree with you both

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004.

When will somebody shut the door on the swine?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 11, 2004.

lol.....catholics.....

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004.

marriage is not the condition for a true love

{nO, MARRIAFE IS AN ACTION TAKEN if YOU LOVE SOEMONE, BUT YOU can MARRY WITHOUT LIVE AS WELL.

You not confuse the behaviour that results FROM love WITH Love in order to distort the actual argument.

If you loved your girlfirend more than yourself, you woidl marry her. Otherwise, you woudlnt. Marriage doesnt create the love, the love creates the marriage. Noienteless you palc your slefishness above love.}-Zarove

a true love is perfectly possible without marriage

{ I ne er disagreed with this, I meely said you are beiugn selfish, which you don address. You IGNORE most of wehat I say in order to invent this which I didnt say.}-Zarove

i told you aldreay what my view on marriage is

{And you ignore mine...funny...}-Zarove

""""{ But since tis based entirely on emotionalism, what when times get rought will you relaly do?}-Zarove """"

on what else should a relationship been based than your feelings for each other?

{respncibility, concern, need, desire to establish a family...many peopel dont form realitonships base don feeligns, and often feeligns develop after the realtionship is established...}-Zarove

ujerz and zarove,love is a feeling that you have towards someone and many other things come along with it like zarove mentioned,i agree with you both

{Love snt a feeling, and if you beelive it is I have even further doubt as to how well your relationshop will last, sicne feeligns change. Love does not.}-ZAROVE

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 11, 2004.

""{respncibility, concern, need, desire to establish a family...many peopel dont form realitonships base don feeligns, and often feeligns develop after the realtionship is established...}-Zarove""

sure zarove,sure....

maybe in your case

but not in mine!

i do love my gf more than myself,i'd never want to spend my life with someone that i don't love more than myself

we both decided not to marry,and i didn't talk her into it or something,she already had that view on marriage when i met her,we share the SAME opinion about it and i'm not being selfish

if she'd want me to marry her,i'll do it right now,without one second of hesitation,just to make her happy,but she also doesn't want that so i don't know why you should have a problem with OUR descision

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004.

""{respncibility, concern, need, desire to establish a family...many peopel dont form realitonships base don feeligns, and often feeligns develop after the realtionship is established...}-Zarove"" sure zarove,sure....

maybe in your case

but not in mine!

{iM NOT MARRIED. tHE POUTN i WAS MAKIGN IS THAT YOU FALLACEOUSLY ASUSMED THAT ALL RELATIONSHIPS ARE BASED ON WHAT YOU DEFIEN AS LOVE, WHICH IS FALSE. iT IS ALSO FALSE TO ASUSME THAT LOVE IS JUST A FEELING.

Not tryign to understand what Im saying in order to demean it is not, in itsself, proof of advancement you know...}-Zarove

i do love my gf more than myself,i'd never want to spend my life with someone that i don't love more than myself

{But you dont love her enoyg to make a fnal commitment to her, becsause that woudl place you under an authoritative agreement, and you where hurt b those in authority in your youth. You place your pain above your love, that is the point I made there.}-Zarove

we both decided not to marry,and i didn't talk her into it or something,she already had that view on marriage when i met her,we share the SAME opinion about it and i'm not being selfish

{Sharing an opinion doesnt make the aciton any less selfish. again, your reasonign behind it does. You repeated the fact that the reaosn you don wan tot get married was because of past abuses, which emans that it is the only real motive you have for not makign a commitment.

Livign togather isnt a commitment, nor is havign sex regulalry and exclusively. Mariage is.

The reaosn you DONT marry is because you wan tto livd outside of authority and social constraints, whoich you admited to, this makes it selfish.

Again, its your motive for these actiosn, nort rathe your Girlfriend agrees with it, thats beifg discussed.}-Zarove

if she'd want me to marry her,i'll do it right now,without one second of hesitation,just to make her happy,but she also doesn't want that so i don't know why you should have a problem with OUR descision

{For strters, its not about opiniosn and descisions, you asked of he mroality, and we spoke. Then you ask of reasoning, and we spoke.

Abnd again you merley seek validation, which cannot be foudn here, so you msut demean us to make yourself feel better, which isnttelf reveals a weakness in you and your realtionship.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 11, 2004.

""{iM NOT MARRIED. tHE POUTN i WAS MAKIGN IS THAT YOU FALLACEOUSLY ASUSMED THAT ALL RELATIONSHIPS ARE BASED ON WHAT YOU DEFIEN AS LOVE, WHICH IS FALSE. iT IS ALSO FALSE TO ASUSME THAT LOVE IS JUST A FEELING. ""

not all relationships are based on love,but i would never start a relationship with someone for a different reason than love

""{But you dont love her enoyg to make a fnal commitment to her, becsause that woudl place you under an authoritative agreement, and you where hurt b those in authority in your youth. You place your pain above your love, that is the point I made there.}-Zarove""

first of all, i don't look on marriage as a final commitment or as any kind of commitment,for me love and commitment are two totally different things like i said in my previous posts, you look on marriage like it glues two people forever together and they cannot never ever seperate

""Livign togather isnt a commitment, nor is havign sex regulalry and exclusively. Mariage is.""

sex can be something apart from love just like marriage,sex is not a condition for love or commitment,but it would be hard to imagine a relationship without it,living together is not a condition for love or commitment, i never said those things

i am not commited to her because i have sex with her or because we live together,i am commited to her because i love her and i never want anyone else to ever be on her place in my life and i never want to hurt her and certainly not in that kind of way

""The reaosn you DONT marry is because you wan tto livd outside of authority and social constraints, whoich you admited to, this makes it selfish.""

yes this is true but i don't see why it should be selfish?

""{For strters, its not about opiniosn and descisions, you asked of he mroality, and we spoke. Then you ask of reasoning, and we spoke.""

i didn't ask of morality,i just don't see why you should be sinning if you love each other and are commited to each but just don't want to marry

""Abnd again you merley seek validation, which cannot be foudn here, so you msut demean us to make yourself feel better, which isnttelf reveals a weakness in you and your realtionship.}-Zarove""

what you guys think about me doesn't make me happy,trust me

i don't really seek validation,i just ask respect and i'm just trying to say that you shouldn't judge our descision by accusing us of things that aren't true(that we're not commited to each other etc...)

i don't see why you should look different to a non-religious non married couple and a religious married couple...

i don't see why you think that unmarried people can't be commited as much as married people

because they married in front of some kind of 'authority'?

that is completly ridicoules to me

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004.

"for me love and commitment and are two totally different things like i said in my previous posts, you look on marriage like it glues two people forever together and they cannot never ever seperate "

should be

"for me love and commitment AND MARRIAGE are two totally different things like i said in my previous posts, you look on marriage like it glues two people forever together and they cannot never ever seperate "

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004.

and

'i don't see why you should look different to a non-religious non married couple and a religious married couple...'

should be

'i don't see why you should look different to a non-religious non married couple and a NON-religious married couple...'

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004.

""{iM NOT MARRIED. tHE POUTN i WAS MAKIGN IS THAT YOU FALLACEOUSLY ASUSMED THAT ALL RELATIONSHIPS ARE BASED ON WHAT YOU DEFIEN AS LOVE, WHICH IS FALSE. iT IS ALSO FALSE TO ASUSME THAT LOVE IS JUST A FEELING. "" not all relationships are based on love,but i would never start a relationship with someone for a different reason than love

{You didnt ask what you wudl do, you asked what the poitn was in genral...Not everythgin is about you! Agaimn, stop beign so self centred andthink for a moment.}-Zarove

""{But you dont love her enoyg to make a fnal commitment to her, becsause that woudl place you under an authoritative agreement, and you where hurt b those in authority in your youth. You place your pain above your love, that is the point I made there.}-Zarove""

first of all, i don't look on marriage as a final commitment or as any kind of commitment,for me love and commitment are two totally different things like i said in my previous posts, you look on marriage like it glues two people forever together and they cannot never ever seperate

{No I dont. You are now asusmignmy veiws on mariage, when all I said was htta marriage was a commitment ( Which is it) and that you ar eunwillign to make this commitment ( wich you are) and tht you instead prefer to just live togather and clal that a commitment when, in reality, tis just a desision you made, not a commitment.

Other thigns hold peopel togather, but commitment is not based on rather or not pepel choose to remain togather.}-Zarove

""Livign togather isnt a commitment, nor is havign sex regulalry and exclusively. Mariage is.""

sex can be something apart from love just like marriage,sex is not a condition for love or commitment,but it would be hard to imagine a relationship without it,living together is not a condition for love or commitment, i never said those things

{Didnt we alreayd cover this? I mean, you asusme I think marirage magiclaly hodls peopel togather, dispite the fac tthat I said otherwise, and now this? Look lad, I told YOU that peoel can hae sex without commitment or love... and can also live togather without...in answer to yor queastions... you know, when you asked why peopel widl live togather without love? They do all the time... answerign yor wuatsions is ppoitnless since you turn it around as if its my view, and asusme veies I dotn hold in order to demean them.

Do you even realise that I was responding to doemthign you said and not expressiong a personal Veiw?}-Zarove

i am not commited to her because i have sex with her or because we live together,i am commited to her because i love her and i never want anyone else to ever be on her place in my life and i never want to hurt her and certainly not in that kind of way

{That howeve isnt a commitment. as stated several times, you decide to stay and can decide to leave at any time. a real commitment, such as a job, or any other cnract, woudl make it an obligaiton and not a choice, no matter whta the motives are. Your love and cjoice to stay with her aside, you arent commited to her, you simpley choose to be with her and live iwht her and have sex iwth her.}-Zarove

""The reaosn you DONT marry is because you wan tto livd outside of authority and social constraints, whoich you admited to, this makes it selfish.""

yes this is true but i don't see why it should be selfish?

{The definition of selfish is doign things becaus eof oneself to the exclusion of others. You do this for yourself dispite the consequences it has on the osutside world, makign it selfish...}- Zarove

""{For strters, its not about opiniosn and descisions, you asked of he mroality, and we spoke. Then you ask of reasoning, and we spoke.""

i didn't ask of morality,i just don't see why you should be sinning if you love each other and are commited to each but just don't want to marry

{Lad, that is a moral quastion!@}-Zarove

""Abnd again you merley seek validation, which cannot be foudn here, so you msut demean us to make yourself feel better, which isnttelf reveals a weakness in you and your realtionship.}-Zarove""

what you guys think about me doesn't make me happy,trust me

{I said you sought validaiton, not for us to make you happy. The fac thtta you asusme my vews and distort what i say ( even wen I anseer your own qieatsiosn you make and then asusme I meant it as a personal veiw or situaiton) proves you simpely wan tot one up us, thus validatign yourself.

You arent happy with your arrangmenrt, and htis is why you feel the need to ut us down.}-Zarove

i don't really seek validation,i just ask respect and i'm just trying to say that you shouldn't judge our descision by accusing us of things that aren't true(that we're not commited to each other etc...)

{1: You arent commited. that si a fact, not an accusation. commitment isnt based on love. Live may prom one to make a commitment, but cmmitment is based on trust and obedeince to an agreement. Livign togather and havign sex isnt a commitment no matter how much you love the other person. By any deifnition of commtment you use, you arent commited to her, you merley choose to remian and can choose to leave at any time, thus you aret obligated and therefore not commited.

2: You dotn want respect from us, you want to sow disresect for our "optinions" so you can make toyr own choices sem more right becuase deep dwn inside you knwo your wrong. Why wlse pull this sort of thing on a Catholic message baord?}-Zarove

i don't see why you should look different to a non-religious non married couple and a religious married couple...

{ Its nto ultimatley abotu rleigion. Many nonreligious peopel are married, rspetibely.

They make a commitment, you just claim yo are commited because " You love her". Again, your love isn a commitment, your choice t remain with her isnt a commitment. A commitment entails obligaiton which livign togather lacks.

This is what ,makes it so different.}-Zarove

i don't see why you think that unmarried people can't be commited as much as married people

{ Because the definition of commitment entails obligation which peipel who arent married arent bojdn to...

You arent commited to yout girlfriend. You think you are because you lov her and don want ot leave her. But if you did want otleave her you coudl with notign stppign you, a married couple woiudl have htings stoppign them, and it woidl be harder to leave, as they woudl have responcibilities.

This is why Commotiment isnt the same as " I love her and will stay qith her" but entails obligaiton. without obligaiton, commitment doesnt exist.}-Zarvoe

because they married in front of some kind of 'authority'?

{ No, because they have obligaiton and responcibility which you lack...some popel just file a paper onlien and forget it these days in soem palces...}-Zarove

that is completly ridicoules to me

{Thats because you think commtiment is a personal feelign and not base don repsoncibility and obligaiton, and no matte rhow often I repeat this, you don get it, thats ridiculous...}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 11, 2004.

yes i think that way about commitment

married ppl also aren't obligated to stay forever together,they just have a lot more trouble divorcing than couples have with splitting up,but that doesn't obligate them to stay together

i don't believe in obligations

in a relationship you don't do thing cause of obligation but out of love for each other and because you want to do so

this makes it so special and beautiful

if my gf would 'love' me and stay commited to me only because she would be obligated do to so,that won't be true love or true commitment any longer...

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004.

yes i think that way about commitment

{But thats not the meanign of commitment. and you have justprven you ARE NOT commited o your girlfriend, you just stay because of the wya you feel, wic is subject to change.}-Zarove

married ppl also aren't obligated to stay forever together,they just have a lot more trouble divorcing than couples have with splitting up,but that doesn't obligate them to stay together

{wrong, they are obligated to stay togather. A divorce, in legal terms, is a mean of breakign a ocntract, however, the terms of a divorce are clear, and it is eviden that the procceeures are endig a commited relaitonship. Soemthign you do not have.

Agai, maried coupels are obligated to remain togather and faithful, a divorce is simpley a mean of ending this commitment. You have no commitment to end.}-Zarove

i don't believe in obligations

{Then you arent commited to anything, since all commitment is based upon obligation.}-Zarove

in a relationship you don't do thing cause of obligation but out of love for each other and because you want to do so

{ Wrong. You often have to do things tou don wan tot do out of love. Love often demands we do thigns we dotn wa tot do...

Likewise, in any relaitonship you af edobligated to soem thigns, rather you want to do them or not, and its not based on feeligns and desire.

This is tet more that you confess you arnet commited to your girlfriend. You do things based soley on rather you want to do them or not, which is neither love nor commitment, btu slefishness.}-Zarove

this makes it so special and beautiful

{No, its what makes it useless and meanignless. if the only reaosn soemone was doign soemthign for me was because they wante to anyway, thats not relaly gign to make me feel loved or special.Nor is it beutifuul. The idea of sacrifice is abcent form your idea of love, and this makes it nothign more thatn prefernece. ZSelfish preference is not beutiful.}-Zarove

if my gf would 'love' me and stay commited to me only because she would be obligated do to so,that won't be true love or true commitment any longer...

{Wrong, commitment is based on obligation, and ove demands obnligation. It woudl be the mark of true love if she stays even when she felt like leaving. It is the mark of commit,ent to do that which is obligated. Your definition of love is prefernece, and its in the end based on you, and how you feel, not on love. Yiou just don relaise this.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 11, 2004.

obligation is to me for example that you have to pay your taxes or you go to jail

""{No, its what makes it useless and meanignless. if the only reaosn soemone was doign soemthign for me was because they wante to anyway, thats not relaly gign to make me feel loved or special.Nor is it beutifuul. The idea of sacrifice is abcent form your idea of love, and this makes it nothign more thatn prefernece. ZSelfish preference is not beutiful.}-Zarove ""

""{Wrong, commitment is based on obligation, and ove demands obnligation. It woudl be the mark of true love if she stays even when she felt like leaving. It is the mark of commit,ent to do that which is obligated. Your definition of love is prefernece, and its in the end based on you, and how you feel, not on love. Yiou just don relaise this.}-Zarove ""

things like sacrifises and feeling like leaving but staying anyway are to me no matters of obligation but of love,nobody forces you to do that,you do it out of your own will

i think we both understand different things under obligations,love or commitment

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 11, 2004.

obligation is to me for example that you have to pay your taxes or you go to jail

{That is one form of Obligation, anothe is keepign your owrd. If I told you I woidl pick you up at 8 at your place, I am obligatged to you to honour this unelss other pans are made or I am hindered.

Obligation is not merley law, nor is it based on lack of free will, oen can willignley enter ino an obligation.}-Zarove

""{No, its what makes it useless and meanignless. if the only reaosn soemone was doign soemthign for me was because they wante to anyway, thats not relaly gign to make me feel loved or special.Nor is it beutifuul. The idea of sacrifice is abcent form your idea of love, and this makes it nothign more thatn prefernece. ZSelfish preference is not beutiful.}-Zarove ""

""{Wrong, commitment is based on obligation, and ove demands obnligation. It woudl be the mark of true love if she stays even when she felt like leaving. It is the mark of commit,ent to do that which is obligated. Your definition of love is prefernece, and its in the end based on you, and how you feel, not on love. Yiou just don relaise this.}-Zarove ""

things like sacrifises and feeling like leaving but staying anyway are to me no matters of obligation but of love,nobody forces you to do that,you do it out of your own will

{And pobligation is also conducted of your own free will, the differenc eis in or head. Love obligagtes tyou to cerain acitosn in and of itsself.

And you just cinradicted yourself since you origionaly said you wangted to o thigns base don love, now you admit you will do things you dont wan ot for loive. Which is it?

And again do you undertsand that doign soemthign because it is expected of you or because you promsed is also obligation?}-Zarove

i think we both understand different things under obligations,love or commitment

{No, I odnt think you understand any of it, or else you woidl be forced ot agree with me and the rest of the civilised world...}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 11, 2004.

OBLIGATIONS ARE TO ME THINGS THAT YOU ARE FORCED TO DO,NO MATTER IF IT IS OUR OF YOUR OWN WILL OR NOT

doing some things that you don't like in your relationship but you do them anyway is a matter of your own will caused by your love for that particular person

-- Anonymous (anarchy_inthe_bedroom@hotmail.com), November 12, 2004.

OBLIGATIONS ARE TO ME THINGS THAT YOU ARE FORCED TO DO,NO MATTER IF IT IS OUR OF YOUR OWN WILL OR NOT

{And thats the real problem... everythign depends on how YOU deifne them... we dont need standard definitions... I eman, all they do is make communication posisble... how YOU define it is all that matters.

An obligaiton is Universally understood as soemtign you are bound by duty to do. However, you can willignly enter into a duty, such as the armed forces, or work, and still be obligated, een though you ebtered of yor own free will.

I dotn care what the word Obligation means to one who woudl reinterpret reality to suit his own selfish ends, I only care about the reality of what the word means.}-Zarove

doing some things that you don't like in your relationship but you do them anyway is a matter of your own will caused by your love for that particular person

{And is an obligation. Its an obligation that you fulfill in the rtealtionship. No amtter what " An obligation emans to you" you have now admited you do things you don liek ( Contradictign what you aid earlier) base don what is expected and needed of you by others. You ARE obligated, you just dot liek the word and try to redefie it and use semantics to escape this reality.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 12, 2004.

Dear, Anonymous

I want to know if you have read up on the christian faith. I am Catholic, but by no means will I judge you.

It looks like to me that Zarove and you are having a debate that is going nowhere. I think he assumes you have the same beliefs he does and goes about them as if he was talking to a Catholic like me.

I ask you to read(if you are intersited)Mere Christianity by: C.S. Lewis

It gives a good insight on why God exists and why we should follow him.

And please Zarove stop judging Anonymous. You say you aren't but you are, so please try to put yourself in his shoes.

-- Nicholas (aflac@carolina.rr.com), November 30, 2004.

Dear, Anonymous I want to know if you have read up on the christian faith. I am Catholic, but by no means will I judge you.

{we've suggested that in other threads...he isnt exaclty the listenign type.}-Zarove

It looks like to me that Zarove and you are having a debate that is going nowhere.

{It cant go anywhere since he reuses to ackoweldge he facts. As he refuses to in the three other threads he was in...}-Zarove

I think he assumes you have the same beliefs he does and goes about them as if he was talking to a Catholic like me.

{Im not Catholic...and I dotn asusme that he has the same beelifs, rather I asusme he has the same Universal standars of all Humanity built and observed in nature. I observe that he is merley lashing out agaisnt authority sicne his upbringing was overly strict ( Other threads make this clear) and that his decision are goign to lead to self destruction no matter what his personal beleifs are, sicne the same actiosn will have the same consequences no matter what.

He isnt intereste din learnign of the christain faith, he is interested rather in discrediting it and showign how wonderful he is by contrast to make himself feel better.}-Zarove

I ask you to read(if you are intersited)Mere Christianity by: C.S. Lewis

{Yeah its a good book, doubt annon will read it though.}-Zarove

It gives a good insight on why God exists and why we should follow him.

{You mean, whow we can know he exists, rather than why... nonetheless, he doesnt want in sight, he wants to justiy his own lifestyle at the expence of our own.}-Zarove

And please Zarove stop judging Anonymous.

{I didnt judge him, I did hwoever condemn his conduct as nonprodictive, and int he end self destructive. However, Im not relaly that judgemental. Stop assuming that of me and start askin why I react this way to a troll.}-Zarove

You say you aren't but you are, so please try to put yourself in his shoes.

{Yesw I am, and I beleive he thinks liek qwe cahtolics...except Im not Catholic... and I have discussed these maters with others liek him before...

He may say otherwise, but he sint here to learn of what christaisn beleive. Rather, he is here to show that he can lead a happy life without "god" and rleigion and authority controlling him.

This si the same man who has placed his daghter in dnager by not only not marryign his girlfriend, btu by not settign approproate boundaries for her.

He also moclks peopels devotion, devalues there allegiences, claims he is more faihtful to his girlfriend than anyoen here will ever be to anyone else, and constantly tries to confront us in order to tear down what we beleive in.

All so he can rise above us and make hismefl feel superior bsed on his own desire tova;idate his lack of controe in life.

No, Im not judging him, but you are judging me, and presumign I dont knwo where he is coming form. I do kow where he is comign form, thats why I speak to him in the manner you see. Kidnness and understanding I show, but I swill not admit what he wants me to admit, that hsi way is as valid, or more so, than our way, because that oudl be lhying, and serves only his slefish ends.

Do not presume my motives till you have more infoirmation.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 30, 2004.

We often have visitors in this forum who act presumptuous and self-confident. It doesn't matter to people like ''anonymous'' whether there is a Gospel or not. He will remain in denial to the bitter end and prefers to be damned, as long as he makes his own decisions. That's what the devil teaches: There is no Good News; it's better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven.

His lame rationalizations, *the Bible is just a history book,* and, **we both decided not to marry, i didn't talk her into it or something, she already had that view on marriage when i met her, we share the SAME opinion about it and i'm not being selfish,**

--Can't be shaken by human intervention. God alone can restore life into the dead soul. Anonymous and his ''g f'' are half-alive without God's saving grace. He alone has life to give them, and for now they resist Him. Every word so far from anonymouz is selfish and impious. Why?

Because the devil is in control of him, as if he's a puppet. His ''g f'' is also a puppet. They live only for one another thus far. Not for God, or any other spiritual purpose. The blind leading the blind (Matt, 15 :13-14).

Nicholas shouldn't take these words for judgment or casting the first stone. I haven't meant them as that. I'm merely observing two lost souls who may yet come to salvation. That is certinly permitted us as faithful Catholics. And, we are here to spread the Holy Gospel as the opportunity presents itself. So, I'm doing it in good faith.

It just might be Almighty God who sent this captive of the devil to us; otherwise why would anonymous even spend one minute reading this?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 30, 2004.