Why do Protestants believe that their interpretation of the Bible is inspired?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
Why do protestants believe that their personal interpretation of Scripture is inspired, and hence, infallible? God already gave us the Truth through tradition and Apostolic Succession. He didn't say, "Here's the Bible, figure out what I'm trying to say!" If everyone's interpretation is infallible, then why is there over 30,000 denominations in the U.S.? I can't imagine God saying,"Oh, well if that's how you interpreted the Bible than I guess that's ok." There is only ONE TRUTH, and it was already given to us. We don't need to search.Peace
-- Cameron Pennington (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), November 14, 2004
what are actually the wrong interpretations of the protestants according to you?
-- .......................................................; (...............@................................rlm), November 14, 2004.
The ones that don't coincide with the Catholic Church.
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), November 14, 2004.
I apologize if my original question seems harsh. I didn't mean to offend or bait anyone, it's just something I've been wondering about lately.Peace, brothers
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), November 14, 2004.
Cameron:
It's the Word of God that is inspired. Interpretation of the written Word doesn't mean inspiration. Private interpretation is either correct, TRUE- - or in error, False.For instance, if the protestant ( or we ourselves,) read the Word which cannot be false, and determine from there that Christ Our Lord was crucified, died on the cross, and was laid in the tomb, then was raised from the dead, lived anew and appeared to His disciples-- we have interpreted the gospel well. This is whether we're Catholics or not. It doesn't mean we're inspired by the Holy Spirit, necessarily.
Then again; should anyone decide from a reading that Jesus was not the only-begotten Son of God, just a prophet; and that His own words were just a wise teacher's words (which many sects teach); these things are incorrectly interpreted. We know this because the book is not self-interpreting in the first place. Without the Church's teaching authority no controversial meaning in the Bible can be infallibly guarded from error. Man's wisdom isn't enough.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Truth our Advocate. He cannot err. He was sent to us in only one Church. Therefore, the Church has the last say in any scriptural interpretation. Above all scholars, wise men, revelations-- (Saint Paul taught that even an angel of light could not alter what the Church teaches,) the Church is infallibly guarded from error. Christ blessed His Church forever this way.
It's no wonder he said, then, ''Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will not pass away.''
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 14, 2004.
First of all Eugene, you are my hero. I read archived posts where you have defended the Church very well. But I think I might have phrased my question wrong.I learned in my RCIA class that Luther believed that if you pray for guidance as you read Scripture that you will be able to understand it fully through the Holy Spirit. My question is, why do protestants not see that the ever multiplying amount of protestant denominations proves that people can't always interpret Scripture infallibly?
I agree with you that the Church has the authority to do so. She is protected through the Holy Spirit. But people aren't protected from error by the Holy Spirit. I want to know why protestants think they are. I hope I put my query in good enough words to evoke an adequate response.
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), November 14, 2004.
I learned in my RCIA class that Luther believed that if you pray for guidance as you read Scripture that you will be able to understand it fully through the Holy Spirit. My question is, why do protestants not see that the ever multiplying amount of protestant denominations proves that people can't always interpret Scripture infallibly?1: nOT ALL pROTESTANTS AGREE WITH lUTHER.
2: The ever increasign denomenaiton thing i a bit tired. Their relaly arent thta many new denomenations any longer.
3: Your understandign of denominationalism is hamperign your aility to truely usderstand protestants. They do not think that their spacific denominaiton is the one true chruch ( exceptison do exost, hwoeever.) Most protestants thik that each seperate Chruch has true beelivers in it, and that their hcurhc is jusr a different way of doign hings. Sme don even have divergent theologies, just different practices.
Most protestants do not, however, think they are right and everyone else is wrogn or that teir personal understanding is nessisarily Infallable. One of the great diferences between protestants and Catholic is the denial of any human interpretaton as infallable!
4: Try to learn more baout Protestantism in genral, I think if you approach it with an open mind, you will find more answers, and more sufficient answers, by merley tlakign to Protestants and elanrgin form them their theology... Makign crude assumptions seems rather bad form.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 14, 2004.
I apologize for my assumption. I thought it was an integral part of protestantism. But I wasn't sure, I've never been protestant. I just don't understand why protestants spend so much time attacking the Church when there are some protestant churches (not very many) that do rituals by making snakes bite them and don't allow girls to wear anything but skirts and so on and so forth. It just hurts a little that my religion (from which all other Christian denominations were made) is being so scrutinized while some (not very many) other churches are doing such weird stuff. Catholicism doesn't need to be scrutinized, she is the Mother of Christianity, the original. It is these other denominations that need to be addressed.
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), November 14, 2004.
I forgot to add, I am friends with a fundamentalist and I do talk to him regularly about that stuff and he thinks that his church is right and infallible and so on.
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), November 14, 2004.
It might help also to remember that Luther was a Catholic. His ideas may have been just built around Catholic doctrine. He felt he couldn't err because he counted on the Holy Spirit in the Church. I don't really know that much about Martin Luther, but I think somebody else here has mentioned he never intended to set up a rival church at all. He thought he was reforming the Catholic Church, our Church.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 14, 2004.
Not all protesntts attack the Catolci Chruch, thg generlaly they feel the Catholic Church is wrong...Of coruse, f they felt it was right they wodul be Cahtolic and not Protestant. ( And if they though the Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saitns was righ they woduk be Mormn, ect...)
But here you are showign the extremist sides, such as snake handlers. Many, many,many,many protestanrs peak out agisnt this practice for a variety of reasons! I eman, do you realy think all Protrestants accept all other protestants? No, they dont, and soem of the firnge groups are rightu denounced for their oddity. ( Such as he aforementioend Snakehandlers.Thou salt not tempt the Lord thy God...or an angry or scared and conused rattlesnake...)
Most protrstant just dotn CARE abotu the Cahtolic Chruch , and the general feelign is one of Apathy. Most feel its wrong on soem poitns, but generally accept hrem as Christain. Only in hostiel aras or agaisnt a hadliner will you find storng anti-Catholisism.
Again, though, I live it he laid back south so my percption may be off.Down here no one even concerns tmselves over hwich chruch you belong to so long as you belong to a Chruch.
Oh and oen other importan tthing, most Protestnats reject the notion that Cahtolisism was the origional form of Christanity, and instead thin og Cahtolisim as evolving out of the initial Chruch, rathe than BEING identicle to it. I tell you this for reference, so tyuo don make mistakes like that in the future. ( One Cahtolic I know actually trued t persuade Protestants withthe " Well sinc eout Chruhc came firs tand tarted with Jesus, it must be right" argumet, and it backfired since htey though he was dilusional and the Churhc began , followed by the Cahtolic additions. )
Again,, one must be careful when makign addresses and keep in midn the midnset of the peopel en is speakign to.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 14, 2004.
Thank you Zarove. That helps me to understand the protestant side of the argument a little better. I'm sorry for offending you.Eugene, that is a good point. I've never thought of that before. And I learned in RCIA that he really didn't want to start his own church, he just wanted to fight corruption in the one he was in. Most of the 95 theses were resolved during the next council because they were valid (selling indulgences is wrong, for example).
Peace, brothers
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), November 14, 2004.
cameron,actually, if you read the 95 thesis, most of them are actually quite unimpressive. The example you use of indulgences is incorrect as well, as the church/God still grant indulgences for certain prayers or actions, including certain donations to the church. The difference is, most people dont understand what an indulgence truly entails. Yes, there was corruption in the system, with local bishops or priests who were selling false indulgences (get into heaven) and keeping the money.
but false indulgences don't work, an indulgence doesnt have anything to do with one's personal salvation. what an indulgence does is if a person goes to purgatory (they are saved for all time, but found currently with sin and therefore unable to enter heaven) an indulgence merely removes some of the time that the already saved person would spend in purgatory. If a person warrants damnation to hell, no amount of indulgences in the world could save him.
and third, zarove, there are MANY protestants, if not all, who think that their interpretations of the bible cannot be false. need i remind you of faith, or jeanie (our insane anti-everything not her own lutheran). in fact there are many denominations of protestants that believe that they alone are right, or that their interpretation is the only perfect one. i know, zarove, i've done the circuit of churches out there and i've heard it alot. so cameron may not be correct in his generalization of all protestants, but he is right to a large extent.
-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 14, 2004.
Cameran,, I wanst offended, Ive been around too long. I just think it nessesary that you think like a protestnat to undertsand them. this si not, of coruse, suggesitgn you onvert, merley that you need to elarn the beelifs before you try to undertsand htem.Paul H- Yes soem Protestnats do, but no the ovewhelmign majority. And soem Catholci get carried away and sya and do strange thigns a well, even on these baords. This osnt mean the majority of Protestants act like Faith any more than the majority of Cahtolics act liek some we shal leave nameless here but whom have caused toruble int he past.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 14, 2004.
I have never met a Protestant who was willing to admit that some of the interpretations taught by his particular church might possibly be false. And this in spite of the fact that other Protestant churches teach many things that conflict with the teachings of his own church; and in spite of the fact that his church claims to be using exactly the same method of exegesis as all the others; and in spite of the fact that no one Protestant church can claim any greater authority than any other in interpreting the Scriptures.What we do know, objectively, is that many of the biblical interpretations taught by various Protestant churches are indeed false. We know this because they conflict with the teachings of other protestant churches, and truth cannot conflict with truth. Conflicting beliefs always means false beliefs.
As for Cameron's original question - WHY do Protestants continue to hang onto a system which has resulted in nothing but confusion, division, and doctrinal chaos for 450 years? Probably because there is only one way out of that manmade system, and that way is unthinkable to many Protestants. On the other hand, many thousands of Protestants every year do find their way out of that system and come home to the Church Jesus Christ founded for them.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 14, 2004.
I have lived in MA, ME, NH, PA, NJ, AL, TN, FL, TX, OK, CA, and MO..I have attended services in Fundamentalist, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian,and Presbyterian churches as well as Protestant services in people's homes which are not affiliated with any church at all. Over two decades in speaking with hundreds of people, I have met TWO who have not said that they believed the Catholic Church to be a "cult", with it's members headed straight to hell and also that they expect the anti-Christ to be a future pope.I have always been staggered to hear the degree of vehemence spoken against the Catholic Church..I also collect antique books..mostly medical books, but a few years back I began picking up some popular religious books of the 19th century..ALL of them express anti- Catholic sentiments. 17th Century "Pilgrim's Progress", a literary classic has an entire chapter devoted to warning people about the evil of Catholicism.
I recently lost a new acquaintence because I told her I was Catholic! Absolutely amazing. It all depends upon where you live..rural USA has an entirely different view on many things.
-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), November 14, 2004.
I should have said 18th century "Pilgrims Progress"..also, I forgot to add that my point was that it is a shame that more pople aren't like Zarove..(at least the folks I've met over the years).. I have some cyberfriends who are Protestants who are truly the salt of the earth..wish there were more of them to meet in person.
-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), November 14, 2004.
I live in rural. Dayotn is as rural as you get and still be able to call it a city... but I have not met too much anti-Catholisism here. Then agan, as I said, where I live is pretty acceptign of any Chruh, withthe only posisble excpetiosn beign Jehova's witnesses and Mormons.At the Chruhc I attend now the mist I heard agaisnt Catholcis was fom one member who simpley siad " I think they have a few things relaly wrong.". He said it niucely and not reay in a cofnrontaitonal manner.
but as I said, eahc of us has diffeing expeirnces.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 14, 2004.
Mankind isn't perfect..there have been instances of men in the Church who have been outrageous sinners..that has absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of the Church.Take for instance another viewpoint..if there were 10 United States Senators who were convicted of child abuse, would it logically follow that the founding fathers were in error to have established the US Senate, or would it mean that there were 10 US Senators who were criminals within a legitimate branch of government?
The Church, founded by Jesus Christ, IS, not "was" ..He promised to be with HIS Church until the end of the world..He didn't promise that men within the Church would become perfect..The Church has many more examples over the centuries of men who gave their entire lives to God ..truly holy men..and yes, there have been evil men too. God weeds them out as He watches over His Church.
-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), November 15, 2004.
Mankind isn't perfect..there have been instances of men in the Church who have been outrageous sinners..that has absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of the Church.{Nor do a few bad protestants indicate the whole theology that protestans generlaly follow is bad. Overall I agree tghough}-Zarove
Take for instance another viewpoint..if there were 10 United States Senators who were convicted of child abuse, would it logically follow that the founding fathers were in error to have established the US Senate, or would it mean that there were 10 US Senators who were criminals within a legitimate branch of government?
{well from my perspectve they where wrong becaue it was high treason...the joys f not beign a native to the America's...but again this can easily applt t all sides and I generally agree.}-Zarove
The Church, founded by Jesus Christ, IS, not "was" ..He promised to be with HIS Church until the end of the world..He didn't promise that men within the Church would become perfect..The Church has many more examples over the centuries of men who gave their entire lives to God ..truly holy men..and yes, there have been evil men too. God weeds them out as He watches over His Church.
{I agree. However, Cameran wondered of the protestant position, this was what I was trying to explain. Take no offense as noen is intended, only tryign to get him to see what is generlaly beleived.}- Zarove
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 15, 2004.
Hey Zarove..now I know I have a neurological disease, yet this is very bewildering to me..when I wrote the reply above your latest, it was in answer to someone who had posted about the Church in a negative manner..not Cameron's post, and certainly not yours..I checked the other "recent answers" thinking that maybe I had looked at THIS thread, and another one, and for some bizarre reason, had returned to THIS one in error to post a reply to another one..but I cannot find the remarks I was replying to !!! I never have mixed up threads before..
Could the moderator have deleted the remark that I replied to, leaving my reply kind of hanging out there by itself? Or perhaps I need one of my medications checked?? LOL. Multiple Sclerosis causes some cognitive difficulties, but they're not usually THAT bad !
-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), November 15, 2004.
hey zarove, my mom is from dayton, OH.... what a cool coincidence
-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 16, 2004.
No wories lesely... and Paul H? ohio?
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), November 16, 2004.
zarove, yeah, dayton ohio, although she doesnt live there anymore, just a bunch of extended family that i've never met.
-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 17, 2004.
Before my husband and I decided to conver to the Catholic faith, we had been raised Southern Baptist and then after we were married and had kids became Church of Christ. Both denominations taught against Catholisism. Especially the Church of Christ. We went there as a married couple longer than any other church and had many friends in teh church.....or we thought we did. Now they won't have anything to do with us at all. Last night the pastor and his wife were at the highschool visiting teachers and we ended up in line together to visit the same teacher and I spoke to both of them. all I got was a curt nod and they left the line and wouldn't stand there and talk to me. However, I might add that the Church of Christ denomination believes that they are the only church going to heaven and can truly know Christ. That is what We deal with almost everytime we bump into an old friend from our past church. A nod or a quick hello out of general politeness and a hurried exit away from us.I also homeschool my kids and we started many years before we made our conversion. We ordered books from a company called ABEKA. Pilgrim's Progress was one required reading and it was (as I later found out) very very anti-Catholic. Also the history books and litrature books are also anti-Catholic. For example one chapter in my oldests history book was titled....The Roman Catholic Empire...The Evil Empire. In the twins history book a chapter was titled....The Catholic Religion, A Distorted View of Christianity. I quickly ditched those books and ordered some books from a Catholic company.
So, yes, I as a past protestant, can honestly say that protestants are in general anti-Catholic. Some to a point of hatred. Even my mother, who is Baptist, is very much against the decision my husband and me made. Although she has learned to "deal" with it.
Thanks and glory be to God!
-- Suzanne (james-betsy@sbcglobal.net), November 17, 2004.
When a religious tradition came into existence through open rebellion against another church, its members are under pressure to demonstrate that what they rebelled against was BAD. Because if what they rebelled against was good, then their rebellion itself was BAD. Therefore, even though some Protestants are far more openly hostile toward the Catholic Church than others, all Protestants have a vested interest in pointing out the shortcomings of Catholicism, past or present, real or imagined, in an effort to legitimize their own existence. This is really a tall order, because it means demonstrating the acceptability of a system of multiple conflicting churches, when Christ Himself specifically said that such a situation is not acceptable.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 17, 2004.
this is a test, I had made a reply that said that I do not either put Catholics down, nor consider any interpetation of the Bible completely specially right, although the Catholic tradition of scholarship is to be respected.Sean
-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), November 17, 2004.
"...Protestants have a vested interest in pointing out the shortcomings of Catholicism, past or present, real or imagined, in an effort to legitimize their own existence..."this quote from paul's post is accurate, in my opinion. i believe that pastors of independent churches especially need to sell themselves, and their way of doing this is to criticize major churches, especially the mormon and cathlic churches. i have suspected for a while that it is a form of brain washing. why else would so many non-catholics think the way they do towards our beliefs (per lesley's post).
in my experience, i have met more antagonism towards catholocism than towards repeat offenders, tax evaders, and mean people in general! i guess religion is always a touchy issue, and people expect everyone else to believe the same they do.
-- jas (jas_r_22@hotmail.com), November 19, 2004.
I used to be protestant, and even anti-Catholic. Yet now i'm Catholic and praise the Lord!Although everyone at my Church always seems to bump into my mom and not me and they always tell her that they miss me so dearly and would love for me to visit them. Should I? I was thinking of attending Saturday mass then onSunday visit my old Church. Yet I do not want to debate or argue with anyone there and am only really going to see my olf friends. But my mom ran into one of them recently and told him that I was going to be the God father for my newborn nephew, and so he started going on to my mom about what the "Bible" really teaches about Baptism. Ya ok, you mean your interpretation.
Should I even visit?
God be with you:)
-- Jason (Enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), November 29, 2004.
Jason, if that church is as anti-Catholic as you say, there would probably be no point visiting their church or visiting them as a group, especially if as you say you don’t have the stomach to be the sole defender against a multi-pronged attack on the Catholic Church.I suggest you tell them that if they miss you so much, they should each arrange to meet you individually (at your house, their houses, or “neutral” ground). Alternatively you could invite them to visit your Catholic Church. Maybe then they will be pleasantly surprised to find that their outlandish misconceptions about Catholics are untrue.
-- Steve (55555@aol.com), November 29, 2004.
Well, Cameron, the original question's answer is I think this: they just assume that their interpretation is right.In fact, they just assume quite a lot of things - such as that the anti-Christ would be a future pope or that the Catholic Church (1 billion strong) is a cult. If they thought about it for a couple of seconds - if they had a clear idea of what exactly a cult is and what a church is, they'd soon realize that no cult known to humanity has ever grown to 1 billion strong.
So I don't think Protestants invest alot of time or energy debating or thinking about the premises or a prioris of their doctrine. They just "do it" - their theologians may take the time to ponder what and why they believe what they do but the average Protestant you meet is like your average Catholic: if the local pastor doesn't talk about X, then the person in the pew won't have considered it either.
-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), November 30, 2004.
I hope that you all belong to Christ. I do not why you discuss things that are not the most important. If you are catholic, your church is not going to save you, If you are protestant you are not to be save just because of that. Catholics have so many heresies, as some protestans do. I hope when you are before the Lord, you won't use those references, they will be useless. Occupy yourself in knowing Christ, that will open the gates of eternal life....that's the most important thing ...Blessings.
-- esojsert (MONTOYA27330@Yahoo.com), December 01, 2004.
And how would you propose to "know Christ", other than through the Church He Himself founded for that purpose? Please don't say "through the Bible", because the Bible came to us through the Church. If Christ had not founded a Church to be the pillar and foundation of truth for all men, that Church would not have sent out missionaries to various parts of the world, therefore those missionaries would not have written letters to the local churches they had set up, therefore their writings would never have been gathered into a book, therefore there would have been no Bible. So whatever you know from the Bible came to you through the Catholic Church. The Church decided which of its early writings would go into its book. Therefore, if the Church founded by Christ is capable of heresy, the Bible compiled by that same Church may very well contain heresy as well. But fortunately Christ guaranteed that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church, and no other, to "all truth", and that whatsoever His Church binds upon earth is bound in heaven. Therefore we know by the word of God Himself that neither the teaching of the Catholic Church nor the contents of the book of its early writings can include any heresy.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 01, 2004.