1 Cor 14:34 "Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith."

Is he talking about he ordination here or simply just woman can't speak? If the latter, why are women allowed to speak now?

1 Tim 2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed; then Eve. 14 And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression. 15 Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety."

Why has the woman(Eve) being seduced have to do with speaking in Church or have authority? What exactly is being said here?

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), November 24, 2004

Answers

bump

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), November 24, 2004.

Women should not be permitted in the Sanctuary during the celebration of Mass.

Women should have their heads covered in Church.

Just a thought :-)

-- Hugh (hugh@inspired.com), November 24, 2004.

Hugh, please define "sanctuary". Do you mean the whole church or just the front?

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), November 24, 2004.

DJ, i would guess that you initial statement that these verses have to do with ordination is more right than anything else.

Because there is no power of priestly or deaconate ordination for women, then they cannot preside over mass. The clergy enacts the mass and the lay people respond to the mass, but do not voice their own opinions. just a guess...

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 24, 2004.

Technically, the sanctuary is just the altar area. Women could *and most do approach the podium for the readings. But only the priest and servers ought to be in the area around the altar and tabernacle as this is the area where the priests offer the sacrifice. It should be noted that any normal joe schmo isn't allowed up there either "just because he's a guy".

As for Eve... well, one the one hand, she did listen to the serpent and fall first, but on the other, the human race didn't fall until Adam went along - which is why the human race could not be restored until another man came along to do what Adam failed to do which was to lay down his life for his bride, the Church.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), November 24, 2004.

Joe, should women even be doing the readings?

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=8810

Quoting Michelle Arnnold (Catholic Answers Apologist):

According to canon law, only laymen can be permanently installed as lectors:

Quote: Can. 230 §1 Lay men [Latin, viri] whose age and talents meet the requirements prescribed by decree of the Episcopal Conference, can be given the stable ministry of lector and of acolyte, through the prescribed liturgical rite. This conferral of ministry does not, however, give them a right to sustenance or remuneration from the Church.

Any layperson, male or female, can serve as a lector by temporary deputation:

Quote: Can. 230 §2 Lay people can receive a temporary assignment to the role of lector in liturgical actions. Likewise, all lay people can exercise the roles of commentator, cantor or other such, in accordance with the law.

Paul's injunction in First Corinthians (14:34, not 15:34) is usually considered to be a disciplinary measure. This understanding is based upon 1 Cor. 11:5-13 where the apostle Paul assumes that there are circumstances in which women speak in church:

Quote: But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved (v. 5).

This passage is part of a section on problems in the liturgy in the churches in Corinth, so we can deduce that Paul is working with the assumption that a woman is praying and prophesying during the liturgy. If that is the case, then he obviously doesn't expect a woman never to speak in church, only to follow a disciplinary injunction that he has given. Disciplinary injunctions are changeable, so later generations of properly-constituted ecclesial authorities could allow women to serve as lectors.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), November 24, 2004.

Hey, great link Emily. And thanks everyone else for your imput. Much appreciated.

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), November 24, 2004.

Here is the canon law reference that Michelle Arnold used: http://www.vati can.va/archive/ENG1104/__PV.HTM

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), November 24, 2004.

Women (and girls) can and do also function as servers, though not as formally institued Acolytes.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), November 24, 2004.

Hi DJ,

For what it’s worth, I think that, in general, both verses apply to the times when Christians gather publicly for worship, teaching, or prayer. In 1 Tim 2:11-15, Paul gives two reasons for why women in these situations are not to speak, teach, or have authority:

1) Adam was first formed.

2) Eve was deceived.

In the first case, God created Adam before Eve to show that He intended there to be headship in marriage between a husband and wife. Men are expected to be leaders in their homes, and Paul informs us that the principle of male leadership also extends to matters of the church.

In the second case, Paul uses the circumstances of the Garden of Eden to illustrate that women, at times, are more open targets for the deception of Satan (probably because God created men and women differently and fitted them for different roles). This is given as another reason for why women are not permitted to hold leadership or teaching roles in the church.

Cheers

-- Scott (scott_pk99@yahoo.com), November 25, 2004.

In order to understand fully what St. Paul meant by these passages we have to consider the situation women lived in that time. According to Roman Law the wife was property of her husband, he could sell her, beat her, make her a slave , even put her to death. In other words women were just objects ("res" in Latin). The veil they wore was a signal of belonging and subjection to husbands. Imagine what would have happened if women after becoming Christians threw out their veils (In Galatians Paul says that in Christ there in no longer man and woman, slave and free, etc.) Even after becoming Christians it was not easy to put aside customs they had observed by law for centuries. St. Paul was trying to avoid a "feminine revolution" in the Christian Communities. So his reccomendations were no more than disciplinary measures that were all right for that time and age, but that culd be changed with the passing of time.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), November 25, 2004.

Enrique,

You stated that Paul's intention was to prevent a revolution among misbehaving women based on his own statements that in Christ we are all share the same salvation regardless or gender. I agree. But you then later stated that perhaps Paul intended that later on things might change, maybe things didn't have to be so rigid when the Christian communities and the Church become more stable. Can you expand a little? I tend to agree with your statements. But I can see some danger in them because the minute we say Paul's rigidity was only for as long as the Church was unstable, then anyone can say, "now that the Church has been stable and strong for 2000 years, lets have female ordination!"

-- brian (brian@brian.com), November 25, 2004.

Brian: when I wrote on how Paul sometimes gave some advice on "disciplinary" matters I wasn't thinking at all on women's ordination. It is clear from Scripture that some advice and disciplines in the Church have changed in things that are not essential to the Faith, such is the case on how a Bishop could be chosen:

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, 6 on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious.

(Titus 1, 5-6).

Because St. Paul recommends that the Bishop should be "married only once" can we infer that married Bishops in the present discipline of the Church are okey?

Here is another example:

"As for the Gentiles who have come to believe, we sent them our decision that they abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage." (Acts 21, 26)

In this text the eating of blood is forbidden, but if that would hold as a precept today most Mexicans would be in sin. There is a Mexican dish called MORONGA that is made with pork blood and a lot of spices. It is a very tasty dish, especially when eaten as "tacos".

I coud give you some more examples, but as we say in Spanish : Con un botón de muestra basta, roughly translated: Why waste time giving so many explanations when one button sample is sufficient.

God bless you, Brian.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), November 26, 2004.

Very cool, thanks

-- brian (brian@brian.com), November 27, 2004.