I'd like to ask whether it's a sin to take medicine to get rid of ailments rather than praying to God to heal you.

-- Anon (anon@non.com), December 08, 2004

Answers

Of course not! God wants us to take care of the bodies he blessed us with. In fact, it is a sin not to take care of the things he blessed us with, especially our body.

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 08, 2004.

Of course it's not a sin to take medicines or to undergo surgerical procedures. God created everything, including the chemicals needed to produce medicine as well as the scientific knowledge needed to invent and manufacture medicines as well as the knowledge and skill needed to perform surgery.

That said, my personal preference is to combine appropriate medicine (if available) with lots of prayer including being anointed with oil for healing and having my priest lay hands on and pray for healing.

If and when the healing comes, I always credit God and thank Him for it even if the medicine ended up being the important factor. There are times, though, when medicine is clearly not the cause of the healing and I know God did it. Such as when my wife was healed of a large tumor during her recent pregnancy - it just disappearred after the priest prayed for her. And such as this past week when my 6 month old son was up all night coughing the night before and the priest anointed him with oil and prayed for him, that night, not a single cough and he slept great with no medicine involved!

A word of caution. There are times when modern medicine could help heal something and we need to carefully consider whether or not it should. For instance, 10 years ago, when my wife and I had finally decided to find out why we hadn't gotten pregnant in the first 8 years of our marriage and the doctor informed us that (after some tests) we couldn't get pregnant without some surgerical assistance combined with some other fertility techniques (I assume in vitro). We prayed about the decision and decided to forefo any surgery and look to God for the answer. It's a long story of growing in faith, but a year later, my son was born without any medical assistance and we firmly believe that God answered our prayers miraculously.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), December 08, 2004.

Remember that St. Luke was "the beloved physician". God can work through doctors, too. Though I myself prefer non-traditional modes of therapy (vitamins, homeopathy), I value doctors very much. And remember to pray to God for healing all the while; at times He might even will to do a miracle.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), December 08, 2004.

Wait until you have your first heart attack and see whether a cardiac cath or herbs appeal to you, or when you develop a life-threatening pneumonia whether you'd like top-shelf antibiotics or aromatherapy. In my humble experience, people who are well or kind-of well want alternative medicine, but when it looks like you are about to die *now* unless some intervention is done, the line for ginko biloba gets shorter in a hurry.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 08, 2004.

Of course it’s not a sin! LOL! For centuries, doctors/pharmacists in Christian countries were all Catholic priests. This is the reason why we still use the title “doctor” (literally, “teacher”) for medical practitioners. It's not an either/or choice between medicines and prayer. You take the medicines for your physical healing and you pray for your spiritual benefit - this could be either a cure (through the medicines or through a miracle) or the strength to endure the illness and derive spiritual benefit from your suffering. Remember to pray for what God wants, not what you want. God knows what you need even before you ask Him, so there's no point just asking him "cure my illness" as you would ask a doctor. The point of prayer is to admit your need of God and throw yourself on His mercy and love, in the knowledge that He always cares for you.

Michael, “non-traditional modes of therapy”?? The absurd pseudo-science of homeopathy has been an unchanging tradition for over 200 years. The almost-as-wacky fashion of “treating” a vast range of real and supposed illnesses with vitamins has been a popular tradition for nearly 100 years. Whereas nearly all of the drugs and treatments used in proper medicine were invented/developed only in the last 50 years. Proper doctors don’t give treatments based on “tradition”, but based on scientific proof that the treatment works.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 08, 2004.

actually, frank, thats not always the case. when my grandpa was still alive but in his last years, he became very ill. we took him to six different american doctors, all of whom ran some fairly extensive tests, and all of whom could not discover what was wrong... though they all agreed that he had less than three months left to live. on a recommendation from our martial arts professor, we took him to an accupuncture and herbalist named Dr. Feng. The doctor not only knew what was wrong, but was able to treat it and my grandpa lived for another four years... pretty good for a life expectancy of months from the western doctors. i agree, accupuncture isnt going to save you if you need triple by pass surgery, but don't rule it out on all lifethreatening diseases

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 09, 2004.

So then is it also wrong to refuse medical treatment after a certain point, and just choose to trust in God instead?

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 09, 2004.

Paul when a doctor says “you’ve got three months to live”, that’s an estimate, not an exact prediction. They usually err on the short side so that if death comes faster than expected it won’t come as too much of a shock. Dying is a very complex and unpredictable process. A particular patient given an estimated 3 months to live could well live for 4 years or more. That doesn’t mean that any treatment given has “worked”. A relative of mine was given “a few days” to live earlier this year, but she lived another 9 months without any special treatment. “Dr” Feng sounds like a talented spieler. Once this type of charlatan has convinced you you have an imaginary disease, it’s easy to sell you an imaginary “cure” for it, especially when you’re dying and desperately want it to be true. Acupuncture is bunkum. It has been proven that inserting needles in the supposed magic points in the body by so-called expert acupuncutrists, has exactly the same small rate of apparent effectiveness as having needles inserted in random places by an untrained person. Your grandpa wasted his money.

GT, yes, when you get to the point where the doctors say that any further medical treatment would be futile, only God can help you. But of course you trust in God all the time, as well as, not “instead” of getting medical treatment.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 09, 2004.

steve, i suggest you travel a bit, as mark twain once quoted, Travel is fatal to prejudice. eastern medicine, which is notably far older than anything in western medicine, is VERY effective. my uncle, who happens to be a doctor, also notes that the stimulation of nervous centers on the body does produce marked effects. steve, ever throw your back out? THAT is stimulation of a nerve... but you insinuate that this has no effect on you. ever meet a paralyzed person steve? why dont you ask them how important the human nervous system is to function. ultimately your assertion stems from a distrust born from innexperience.

second, when i talk about my grandfathers life being prolonged, you mistake and think there was nothing wrong with him, so there was a false disease to be cured. when i say my grandfather was dying i mean that he was caughing up blood, blacking out randomly, losing blood pressure, getting very very sick for apparently no reason, and there was NOTHING that any western doctor we took him to could possibly do. they all realized that he was dying of some condition, but none could pinpoint the problem much less treat it. Dr. Feng, who, i might note, attended medical school in america and is a doctor of both western AND eastern medicine, didnt sell a hoax and my grandpa happened to live years longer with the condition, the condition WENT AWAY. He lived for years longer and died peacefully in his sleep.

Second, my uncle, the doctor, orders tea ingredients from the pharmacy that Dr. Feng recommends. he uses this to make a version of sleepy time tea that is really quite potent. steve, if you could stay awake after drinking this, i will personally pay you $100. the truth of the matter is that the chinese medical system is not only older than ours, but also incorporates much of our system while maintaining its own methods as well. OUR medicinal system, however, is so reluctant to recognize anything other than what it already knows, that it wasnt even until recently that doctors finally recognized that egyptians already had elementary brain surgery, a method which transplanted into china as well. our doctors are nothing special steve.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 10, 2004.

Dear Anon, Saint Luke is the Roman Catholic Patron Saint of Physicians & Surgeons. Yes, Luke, as in the writer of the Gospel & Acts of the Apostles. "Luke, the beloved physician" (Colossians 4:14).

So I'd say there is nothing wrong with going to your Doctor (getting a second, third or more opinions if needed) and filling out your prescription.

I'm assuming you're going to a Western Medical Doctor/Practicioner. I also have an equal amount of trust, if not more so, in a qualified, licensed Eastern Medical Doctor/Herbalist/Practicioner.

Keep in mind most Western Medical Doctors treat the symptoms only. Whereas many Eastern Medical Doctors (who are also trained in many Western Medical Techniques & Surgical Procedures because they've attended American & UK Universities & Colleges) treat the underlying cause, and try to alleviate the pain that they symptoms leave as well. So that they hopefully never recur.

Just because you've never experienced Acupuncture, Acupressure, Ayurveda, Shiatsu, Herbs, Amino Acids or Mineral Supplements doesn't mean they don't work.

You can find inexperienced, even lousey or charlatan American & UK doctors too.

Rule of thumb: If you have a life threatening condition that requires daily doses of medicine. Ex: Diabetes, Mental Illness, Heart Problems, Thyroid. et. Take your medicine.

Though I'd go to my Holistic Physician and see if there were any better natural medicines I could take that my body would have fewer (if any) bad reactions to.

Or if you're a fella and experiencing shooting pains in your left arm, take yourself to the ER you could be having a heart attack. Or if you fall off your ladder hanging your Christmas tree lights and break your arm. Go to the ER & get a cast.

I'd also go to my Holistic Physician and get other herbs and supplements that would help me heal faster and my heart stronger.

Just because it came from a huge pharmaceutical company doesn't necessarily mean it's the best drug for you. Be informed. Ask what you need. Ask your Doctor for her/his opinion, and for them to suggest a good Holistic Doctor. Remember to be a doctor and to prescribe medicine ect..many of them also go to University or College.

Remember: God helps those who help themselves :)

And think of Prayer or Meditation, what ever you want to call it. As something the help see you through the pain, and as something you do to say thank you, when you're healthy.

Being RC, I'm also a fan of going to any Anointing of the Sick Masses our Church has, even when I'm not 'sickly.' I consider it a sort of preventative. ;) Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian In an effort to include all faiths: Enlightened Rohatsu, Happy Hanukah, Bah Humbug, Merry Christmas, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year!!!

-- Dorian (DontAgreeIDontCare@Yahoo.com), December 10, 2004.

Hi Dorian welcome to the Catholic forum, nice to hear a new voice. Not knocking your faith in holistic treatments the folwing quote from your post needs to repeated and stressed before anyone takes anything (even for a headache, much less a heart attack) from a "holisitc doctor" . Never take alternative medicines or herbs without first asking....

your Doctor(local conventional GP) for her/his opinion

:) Peace and Seasons Blessings

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 10, 2004.

excuse the sp as usual

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), December 10, 2004.

In the parable of the GOOD SAMARITAN Jesus commends him because: He approached the victim, poured oil and wine over his wounds and bandaged them. Then he lifted him up on his own animal, took him to an inn and cared for him. (Luke 10, 34) so He is telling us that we can use the traditional medicine. If Jesus were living today among us he would say that the Good Samaritan poured antiseptics on his wounds and gave the wounded man some antibiotics (they were far from the city in some out of the way route) and then took him to the doctors and the hospital.

So what is wrong with taking medicine?

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), December 10, 2004.

Always remember that your body is the temple of God so, as best you can discern, you are responsible for its maintenance.

I would ask you this. If your house was dirty would you pray that someone came to sweep it? Or would you buy a broom and sweep it your self? Or would you pray that the dirt disappears?

Food itself contains most medicines or the chemicals that are considered medicines in their more purified forms. As civilizations progressed our diets changed and the earth and the crops it yields have changed. Thus we have been exposed to different "medicines" depending on our diets while on our sojourn on this earth. Thus each farmer or merchant has already been your doctor in that sense, even if you have never been to a formal doctor. So you are already doing what your question seems to be asking. you would just be searching for a more specific or purified food in many cases.

Remember that medicines, as the west knows them, are very recent in history being at first isolated from various plants and animal preparations, then purified, then chemically synthesized as science advanced and nowadays their progeny fill the pages of the PDR. But the ancestors were/are in the plants many of us still eat.

And remember, God mad the first garden, which man was to tend and care for and whose fruits man was to eat and it was the same for the animals whose flesh man could eat as God prescribed.

So, it was God who created these medicines and who told man to eat them. And that same God also wants our prayers as well. Didn't he also advise that moderation in all things is good.

So, my advice is to pray for healing and heal yourself through the produce which is God-given in food and in its modified forms as medicines, provided they are ethically obtained and tested, by either years of safe use or double-blind pharmacological testing.

My background is in both Chemistry and the Medical field. God bless.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), December 11, 2004.

Speaking as a Nurse Practitioner for 30 years, I certainly wouldn't call Centuries-old Chinese Medicine "bunkum". Just as there are plenty of quacks out there promoting all sorts of junk in the Western world, there are plenty of quacks out there saying they practice acupuncture when the only needle they ought to be picking up is to sew buttons.

It has been my honor over my many years of practice to meet REAL practitioners of Chinese acupuncture and herbal medicine. Fascinating stuff indeed. Western medicine doesn't cure everything, so why would anyone expect other modalities to do so?

For the proven Western cures and surgical interventions, I obviously have a bias..that was my life for 3 decades..yet I am open to other methods for things yet not known.

God has given us plants, He has given us intellect..to not utilize these gifts He has given to us is to be wasteful.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 11, 2004.

Dear Steve (hello again),

I'm certainly not arguing against M.D.s in general., but they tend to be in the drug business and don't necessarily know much about *health*. Folk such as Samuel Hahnemann (ever heard of Hahnemann Hospital in Philadelphia?) were doing great work using homeopathy when typical physicians were butchers. Admittedly, I would certainly run, not walk, to an M.D. in case of a heart attack, acute illness, etc. But for most everyday maladies, I threw out the junk in my medicine cabinet eight years ago and don't regret it. I have experienced the great effectiveness of homeopathy, even if you haven't.

BTW, my wife was told by M.D.s a dozen years ago that she would "never" dance again because of a chronic fatigue condition (she is a ballet teacher); there was "nothing" that could be done. But a great homeopath in Manhattan nursed her to health in six months; she now has more energy than most teenagers I know.

And her uncle, trained as an M.D., turned to Oriental medicine and homeopathy after alternative treatments could cure his migraines *instantly* when nothing else could.

I don't know why I'm bothering to argue about this (it just shows my silliness and stubbornness, for I am a sinner). But perhaps you should try something before rejecting it as "unscientific"...?

Blessings, joy, and health to you this Advent!

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), December 11, 2004.

"..your Grandpa wasted his money.."

What an ignorant thing to say to someone about their deceased family member. Get off your high horse Steve.

You waste your money donating to pro abortion Unicef. Didn't the Vatican even stop donating to this group because of their support for minors having abortion without telling their parents?

-- - (David@excite.com), December 12, 2004.

Sigh! You see why I worry that non-Christians will think that the typical Christian is an ignorant, insecure dupe, who refuses to use his brain and is willing to believe ANYTHING including so- called “creation science” and “alternative medicine”.

“eastern medicine, which is notably far older than anything in western medicine” (paul h) And this proves that it works or is true?? Astrology, Druidism, Hinduism, “reading” animals’ entrails, are all older that Christianity. So what?

“the stimulation of nervous centers on the body does produce marked effects. steve, ever throw your back out? THAT is stimulation of a nerve... but you insinuate that this has no effect on you. ever meet a paralyzed person steve? why dont you ask them how important the human nervous system is to function..”

I know all about the nervous system paul, but you obviously are unaware that the supposedly magic “points” where the acupuncture needles are inserted, are NOT on nerves; in fact acupuncturists indignantly insist that acupunture has NO relation to the nervous system, but works by “releasing the chi force” along “meridians”. There has never been any evidence for “the chi force” or “meridians”, which are the imaginary products of pagan philosophy. “ultimately your assertion stems from a distrust born from inexperience” No, my assertion stems ultimately from the fact that thousands of scientifically conducted experiments have been done to determine if acupuncture works, and ALL of them showed it doesn’t. Your assertion is based on a sample of ONE case. The fact that your grandpa got better after he had acupuncture does NOT prove that the acupuncture cured him. You could equally well argue that any number of other things that happened at the same time “cured” him, but most likely the disease simply had run its course, as most diseases do. Funny how you haven’t mentioned what exactly was the supposed “diagnosis” which “Dr” Feng provided. Did you get a real doctor to confirm it?

“my uncle, the doctor, orders tea ingredients from the pharmacy that Dr. Feng recommends. he uses this to make a version of sleepy time tea that is really quite potent. steve, if you could stay awake after drinking this, i will personally pay you $100.” Hey, I never claimed that herbs can’t knock you out. Sometimes permanently. Btw does your uncle or “Dr” Feng have permission from the FDA to sell this obviously potent narcotic?

“OUR medicinal system, however, is so reluctant to recognize anything other than what it already knows” Oh really? Then why all the hundreds of medical journals reporting new discoveries and experiments, properly scientifically tested? and once it’s been proved they work they get adopted. In fact over the last 50 years practically all older treatments have been replaced or radically changed, and the increase in medical knowledge has been exponential. Btw the USA doesn’t “own” the consensus opinionions of the WORLD”s medical community which bases it’s opinions only on proven facts.

“that it wasnt even until recently that doctors finally recognized that egyptians already had elementary brain surgery” I think you mean “historians” recognized it. Actually I remember reading 40 years ago about the discovery of a skull of a prehistoric man which had had a hole drilled in it while he was alive, presumably for medical reasons. Which proves my point. Scientific medicine isn't just a "western" cultural phenomenon as you seem to think.

“I'm assuming you're going to a Western Medical Doctor/Practicioner. I also have an equal amount of trust, if not more so, in a qualified, licensed Eastern Medical Doctor/Herbalist/Practicioner.” (Dorian) Yeah that doesn’t surprise me, since you had an equal amount of trust in a homosexual “couple” and a married couple as adoptive parents.

“Keep in mind most Western Medical Doctors treat the symptoms only. Whereas many Eastern Medical Doctors .. treat the underlying cause, and try to alleviate the pain that they symptoms leave as well. You can find inexperienced, even lousey or charlatan American & UK doctors too.” Garbage. Proper doctors, whether they are from USA, UK, China or wherever, treat both the symptoms and the cause, according to scientifically proven facts. And pain IS a symptom. Charlatan “doctors” (some of whom, to their shame, have proper medical training and should know better) use so-called “alternative therapies”.

“Just because you've never experienced Acupuncture, Acupressure, Ayurveda, Shiatsu, Herbs, Amino Acids or Mineral Supplements doesn't mean they don't work.” I never gave that as a reason. And I have experienced most of these. If I did experience them it wouldn’t mean they did work either. I repeat again, ALL treatment should be used because it has been proven to work, not on the basis of “tradition” or blind faith.

“I'd go to my Holistic Physician and see if there were any better natural medicines I could take that my body would have fewer (if any) bad reactions to.” Why don’t you take Botulinum toxin, Dor? Or ricin? Or morphine, cocaine or cannabis? All perfectly natural. “Natural” does NOT mean “harmless”.

“Just because it came from a huge pharmaceutical company doesn't necessarily mean it's the best drug for you. Be informed. Ask what you need.” Sorry but I think I’ll ask someone who’s been to medical school to decide what I need, and if it happens to be manufactured by a big company, too bad. (Btw most of the products you mention are manufactured by companies which are just as big or even bigger.)

“Ask your Doctor for her/his opinion, and for them to suggest a good Holistic Doctor.” And if he failed to reply “Holistic” is a lot of nonsense”, I would stop going to him because he clearly doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

“medicines, as the west knows them, are very recent in history being at first isolated from various plants and animal preparations, then purified, then chemically synthesized as science advanced and nowadays their progeny fill the pages of the PDR. But the ancestors were/are in the plants many of us still eat.” (Karl)

Along with a myriad other chemicals which have various other effects on us. That’s why it’s far safer to take a modern drug which has been isolated from the plant it comes from, purified and standardized and tested, rather than to take an unpurified, untested herbal medicine (i.e. a bit of a plant) that contains a potentially lethal cocktail of God knows what. Most of the pharmacologically active chemicals in plants are there for a reason: to poison animals to deter them from eating the plant. (Actually in Genesis God told man only to eat the fruits and seeds, and the animals to eat the leaves.)

“Years of (apparently) safe use” doesn’t prove that a medicine works, or even that it is safe. Scientific testing is the only way to prove that it works, and that it is (acceptably) safe.

“I certainly wouldn't call Centuries-old Chinese Medicine "bunkum"” (Lesley) And I didn’t, I merely called acupuncture bunkum. I repeat, there’s not “Eastern Medicine” and “Western Medicine”. There is medicine which is proven to work and “medicine” which has been proven not to work (or at least not proven to work). What you call “Western medicine” is not based on some sort of cultural tradition of “The West” but on science. Some of its best practitioners come from Asia.

“God has given us plants, He has given us intellect..to not utilize these gifts He has given to us is to be wasteful.” Exactly. We must use our intellect to find, isolate, purify, standardize, test and use the active drugs found in those plants. Not ignore our intellect and merely eat the whole raw plant extract and hope that the hundreds of chemicals in it will somehow on balance do us some good. Or even worse, to use "treatments" which our intellect tells us (or would if we thought about it)are a waste of resources and posssibly harmful.

“I'm certainly not arguing against M.D.s in general., but they tend to be in the drug business and don't necessarily know much about *health*.” (Michael) No, very few of them have any investment in the drug business. Most of them spend a lot of time trying to get people OFF drugs like tobacco and excessive alcohol. Many of them aren’t in any kind of “business” at all but work in public hospitals and academia.

“Folk such as Samuel Hahnemann (ever heard of Hahnemann Hospital in Philadelphia?) were doing great work using homeopathy when typical physicians were butchers.” Yes when Hahnemann invented the pseudo- science of homeopathy in the 18th century, typical physicians had no better treatments than unpurified and unstandardized herbal extracts which often harmed the patient. Hahnemann’s concoctions, diluted to virtually nothing, at least did not do harm (except in some cases when they delay proper treatment). But in the last 250 years proper medicine has been informed by science and has moved on. Homeopaths remain stuck in the 18th century.

“I have experienced the great effectiveness of homeopathy” Again, a sample of one proves nothing. What you ‘experienced” was subjective. The homeopath didn’t cure your widfe’s chronic fatigue syndrome. This is a self-limiting condition which gets better by itself in a couple of years.

“perhaps you should try something before rejecting it as "unscientific".” No thanks. I’m not going to be the guinea pig, especially for something which has already been conclusively proven NOT to work and/or cause harm.

“What an ignorant thing to say to someone about their deceased family member. Get off your high horse” Hmm we’ve never seen YOU being ignorant or pontificating from your high horse have we Davey boy? I don’t think Paul was offended by the realization that his grandpa had wasted his money, but Paul I apologize if I didn’t put it gently enough.

And Unicef and abortion has got exactly WHAT to do with the subject??

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 12, 2004.

"..And Unicef and abortion has got exactly WHAT to do with the subject??

Money Steve.

You're the guy that brags about donating money to UNICEF.

I refuted you before and showed you how(after you challenged another poster) the Vatican has stopped donating to this pro-abortion group.

You're the same guy telling little paul that his Grand Dad wasted money and he has told you his grand -pop did better.

Ease up dude![ I won't mention you pulling Zar.. down to the carpet for asking God to be a "capital" G.

Enjoy life Steve and have a blessed holiday.

-- - (David@excite.com), December 12, 2004.

First off I didn’t “brag” about it Davey boy. I merely mentioned, in response to your ludicrous assertion that Unicef is simply “a pro- abortion group”, that I’m sure that 99.9% of Unicef’s budget is spent on highly moral activities and that I would continue to support it in the very limited way I do. I don’t recall anyone ever mentioning that the Vatican had stopped (or indeed ever started) donating to it.

Sorry if it offends you, but Paul’s grandad DID waste his money and that’s a fact. Maybe 0.1% of the money I give Unicef is wasted, but Paul’s Grandad wasted 100% of the money he gave the so-called “Dr” Feng.

I didn’t “pull Zarove to the carpet”; I merely told him to “ease off” condemning Dorian for what was almost certainly an accidental mistake in typing ONE letter. But I realize there’s no point telling you to ease off, you seem to continuously flail around looking for someone to vent at (never forgetting to "bless" them at the end of each outburst).

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 13, 2004.

David, I don't bring conversations from one thread to the other. But yes Zargove was acting like he was the Grammer Gestapo Cadet and from what I gather Steve decided to mention it.

That be as it may, really it's okay. I'm a big girl Steve. Thank you for standing up for me. I'd like to think it was an act of kindness on your part, but then you promptly belittle any kindness you did by trying to belittle my opinion by throwing my other opinions I continue to strongly believe in into my face.

Let it go Steve. Let God deal with me in his own fashion, time and place if he believes I've thought wrong okay? We don't have to talk about it anymore. Nor do we need to rehash it on other threads.

Would you mind terribly trying to give your pros and cons in such a way that they aren't so derogatory, or inflamatory?

You don't need to try and sway any readers to your beliefs or feel like they won't read what you have to say just because it's your opinion by saying unkind, particularily snotty things about other peoples opinions.

I don't have to agree with you, but I defend your right to freedom of speech Steve. I just wish that you would give me the same respect I give to you.

New topic thread. It should be new topic conversations. Not psuedo flaming for things people have said on other threads.

My personal observation is that you've replied and tried to debunk what everyone's said about Holistic, Homeopathic and Alternative Medicines. But all you've said is that what little you've been able to read says they don't prove they work. We ALL comprehend you don't agree with us, but conversely, you haven't given any of us any proof that they don't work.

No matter your opinion of me personally, which is yours to have. I did study and work in the Alternative Health Field, and I happen to know it does work. Of course not 100% for each and every client. But then again, Western Medicine doesn't work 100% for each and every client.

And there ARE periodicals, real established, well known medical journals ect. that have been published, that say Holisitc, Homeopathic & Some of the other Alternative Healing therapies 'DO' work. Most are European, because the U.S. is behind in accepting, studying and applying those techniques. Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian

In an effort to include all faiths: Enlightened Rohastu, Happy Hanukah, Bah Humbug, Merry Christmas, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year

-- Dorian (blahblah@yahoo.com), December 14, 2004.

Steve, btw, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome doesn't get better by its self in a few years.

It's not a 'mental disorder'.

I did a dissertation of the disease for College. Most people suffering from CFS have the Epstien-Barr Virus in common. Leading medical experts believe that that virus (who's precursor is normally mononucleosis) is the cause of CFS.

Traditional Western Medicine have no ways to cure the disease, which doesn't go away in a few years. It's a life long illness. Though the client can go through cycles where the disease could go into remission for anywhere from days - year.

Since there is no 'cure', the client must find ways of dealing with the illness to better the quality of thier life. And since there are very few Western Medicine ways of diagnosing (until it's too late) the disease, let alone managing the disease.

Most of the clients who've reported any positive news of dealing with the pain, fatigue, and being able to maintain longer remission periods, ect..have turned to Holistic, Homeopathic and Alternative Therapies. Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian

In an effort to include all faiths: Enlightened Rohastu, Happy Hanukah, Bah Humbug, Merry Christmas, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year

-- Dorian (blahblah@yahoo.com), December 14, 2004.

Dorian, I may belittle your opinions but I am not belittling or “flaming” you. I have made no attempt to restrict your freedom of speech. When I disagree with you it doesn’t mean I don’t “respect” you. In fact I would be guilty of NOT respecting you and the others here if I misrepresented my own opinions (which in this case are proven scientific facts)just for the sake of being agreeable.

“you haven't given any of us any proof that they don't work.” You’ve got it the wrong way around Dor. When someone claims that his product cures a disease, the onus is on HIM to prove that it works, not on others to prove that it DOESN’T work. Especially if what he is claiming flies in the face of all proven scientific knowledge. I’m sure you’re a fine person and all, but that doesn’t mean I have to simply take on board your assurance “I happen to know it does work”. If you are aware of ONE properly conducted scientific study which proves that any ONE homeopathic “medicine” works, I would be fascinated to see it. Because such does not exist. And your beliefs about Europe are wrong. The bogus “alternative” medicine industry is bigger in the USA than in any other country.

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome DOES get better by itself in a few years. I could refer you to standard medical texts, but obviously you would be more convinced by the unscientific evidence that I have personally known two people who had CFS for a couple of years and are now fully recovered. I’m still trying to work out what twisted logic you used to somehow conclude that I or anyone thought that CFS was a mental disorder! LOL!

The pattern of remission periods (getting better then worse then better then worse etc.) which you mention, is one of the main reasons why even intelligent people often think that an “alternative” medicine must have “worked” on conditions like CFS and arthritis. The patient obviously is more likely to take the “medicine” when the disease is at the bad part of the cycle. Inevitably, the “good” part of the cycle follows, and voila! “proof” that the medicine “worked”! This is one reason why anecdotal testimonies can't prove anything. At best you can say that there is a hint that the medicine MAY have worked.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 14, 2004.

steve,

i have refrained from commenting on your posts for awhile now, to listen to what you have to say. first, you did flame dorian, you point out her position on homosexuals adopting as a qualification for this entirely unrelated arguement... what an ad hominem attack. i could point out a number of non-sanctioned liberal and uncatholic positions you have taken on these boards, but i dont because it is not germane to the discussions at hand.

Second, waste of money? not hardly. you value money too much steve. money is nothing, its only value comes in spending it on something a person values. if the only thing accupuncture did for my grandpa was a placebo effect that he valued and made him more comfortable, then that was money well spent.

third, you insinuate that my uncle is an untrained loon who makes poisons from herbs. at least you do recognize that herbs can have an effect. however, you are incorrect to state that a doctor, who has a legal and binding ability issued by the GOVERNMENT of california to issue perscriptions in the forms of herbal teas is somehow going to mess around and get people killed. Good lord, steve, we're talking about two people educated in american medical schools, one of whom is a doctorate of both western and eastern medicine. you treat these EXPERTS like they're both amatures with a few needles they bought from the dollar store. i dont need medical journals, i have two doctors who can tell me straight, who are both as qualified in western medicine as any doctor writing for a medical journal.

But lets talk about journal's, steve, i googled the word accupuncture and got any number of positive results from medical journals and government research/board sites. in the first thirty returns i found ONE, count that steve, ONE negative response to acupuncture, from a site called skepdic.com (short for skeptics dictionary). the site was filled with conjecture, errors, and only one reference to an outdated study. Speaking of errors, you are incorrect. all traditional accupuncture only places needles in locations where nerves are centered. all real accupuncturists order sanitized ONE use needles which are thrown away after first use. All real accupuncturists don't use modern amatuer experimental techniques like running electricity through or heating up of the needles.

I dont know what your experience with acupuncture is that has you so turned off to it, steve, but your bias and your ignorance in this is really rather amazing. how about instead of telling us how widely condemned it is, you find us an actual study that shows how inneffective acupuncture is. until then, i'll consider all your so- called medical journal evidence as so much hogwash next to the two doctors who tell me that it works.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 14, 2004.

Steve, do you consider Hildegard of Bingen a quack, too? She wrote about the curative properties of natural plants.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sainth05.htm

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 15, 2004.

"..I don't recall anyone ever mentioning..."

Get that memory checked Stevey-boy! It was in a conversation you were having with Mrs. G.T.. a few months ago.

"...the Vatican had stopped( or indeed ever started) donating to it.."

Some interesting reading for you, I copied for you: " Just today I was in the room where the Vatican's permanent observer to the UN (Archbishop Renato R. Martino) stated that the Vatican cannot support UNICEF because it has chosen to reach beyond its legitimate mandate (to help the world's children) and now gets mixed up in advocacy of population control, abortion, and even puts its logo on pornographic children's books that they call sex eduxation texts.

The archbishop (who has served in his post for 16 years) explained that in past years the Vatican has made a symbolic donation to UNICEF, which had always served to boost donations from Catholics worldwide - but there is no longer any such Vatican donation to UNICEF.

The archbishop did praise the UNICEF for its primary roll in ensuring that 80% of the world's kids have been innoculated against many deadly dieseases - but that was in the past, and today the Vatican cannot support UNICEF's advocacy of immoral policies."

Put that in your pipe and smoke it Steve.:-)

-- - (David@excite.com), December 15, 2004.

Steve, You graduated from medical school? Or are you just trying to be an amatuer Amazing Randy?

You can laugh, but back when CFS first started showing up here in the US, most medical tests (and most still do, unless a doctor knows what they're looking for) missed any signs of the illness and most doctors fell back on meds they usually administered to patients with depression ect, because they thought it was a mental disorder.

Only recently because of advances in diagnosis techniques they've discovered it's not all in thier clients heads. And even then the tests aren't conclusive, and it's thru a combination of things that it's even determined, and often times it's interchangable/mistaken for Fibromyalgia.

>>>TAKEN FROM THE CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL SITE ON CFS<<< The clinical course of CFS varies considerably among persons who have the disorder; the actual percentage of patients who recover is unknown, and even the definition of what should be considered recovery is subject to debate. Some patients recover to the point that they can resume work and other activities, but continue to experience various or periodic CFS symptoms. Some patients recover completely with time, and some grow progressively worse. CFS often follows a cyclical course, alternating between periods of illness and relative well being. CDC continues to monitor the patients enrolled in the four-city surveillance study; recovery is defined by the patient and may not reflect complete symptom-free recovery. Approximately 50% of patients reported "recovery," and most recovered within the first 5 years after onset of illness. No characteristics were identified that made one patient more likely to recover than another. At illness onset, the most commonly reported CFS symptoms were sore throat, fever, muscle pain, and muscle weakness<<<

So don't try to be the omnipotent medical expert and think everyone gets over it in a couple of years. I don't mind you giving your opinions, even when they don't agree with mine, or anyone else's or even when you can't debate in a nonconfrontational way. I just wish you'd bother to educate yourself on the subject matter first.

Yes, we all go off topic, but really Steve. Anny's question (paraphrased) was 'Is it a sin to take meds to get rid of ailments instead of praying for God for miraculous healing?'

So far all you've done is try to debunk valid, alternatives to Western Medicine Techniques, acting like they were Snake Charm gags, and try to get in bickering matches with specific posters as well as try to give your two cents on a disease you're very obviously unfamiliar with.

You also seem unfamiliar with Scientific Theory: What distinguishes a scientific theory from a non-scientific theory is that a scientific theory must be refutable in principle; a set of circumstances must potentially exist such that if observed it would logically prove the theory wrong.

Summary A scientific theory must be testable. It must be possible in principle to prove it wrong. Experiments are the sole judge of scientific truth. Scientific method: observations, hypothesis/theory, experiment (test), revision of theory.

Funny, I found loads of Alternative Medical Journals at this site: http://www.allenandunwin.com/complementarymedicine/journals.asp

Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian

In an effor to include people of all faith: Enlightened Rohastu, Happy Hanukah, Bah Humbug, Merry Christmas, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year

-- Dorian (yaddaYadd@yahoo.com), December 15, 2004.

“i have refrained from commenting on your posts for awhile now “ (paul) Yeah, two whole days, wow what restraint. Or have you been drinking your uncle’s magic potion?

“you did flame dorian, you point out her position on homosexuals adopting as a qualification for this entirely unrelated argument” (paul) I most certainly did not. I merely said that it shows just the same illogic to say “it doesn’t matter whether the person who treats you is a real doctor” as to say “it doesn’t matter whether your adoptive parents are a real married couple”. There’s nothing “ad hominem” about it. Did I call her names? Did I say she was a bad person? Did I make any personal criticism of her at all? NO, No and NO. And I have seen you bring in unrelated topics many times, pauly boy.

“i could point out a number of non-sanctioned liberal and uncatholic positions you have taken on these boards, but i dont because it is not germane to the discussions at hand.” No, you don’t because you can’t, as I have never taken any such position. Incredible as it seems to you, “sanctioned loyal Catholic beliefs and practices” is not synonymous with “everything on the agenda of right- wing militarist political and ultraconservative sectarian traditionalist self-appointed guardians of truth who think they’re more Catholic than the Pope”.

“you insinuate that my uncle is an untrained loon who makes poisons from herbs.” Not at all. You tell me he is trained and I believe you. I just said that it is sad that some people who have proper training and should know better have fallen into promoting snake-oil. And many herbs ARE poisons. And yes if your uncle's concoction is so strong that it would knock me out no matter how hard I tried to stay awake, then it MUST be registered with the FDA. And I'm still waiting with bated breath for you to tell us "Dr" Feng's supposed diagnosis of your grandad. Why DO some properly trained health professionals take up quackery? See http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/quackpro.html Yes you can find a lot of amazing stuff googling. Unfortunately most of it is rubbish put out by people with products to sell. I’m still kicking against the pricks. You won’t find ANY authoritative or scientifically based study proving that acupuncture “works”.

“Speaking of errors, you are incorrect. all traditional accupuncture only places needles in locations where nerves are centered.” LOL! “traditional acupuncture" was around for centuries before anyone even knew nerves existed! As I said, it is based on the Confucian theory of “meridians” (imaginary lines running through the body which do NOT correspond to nerve pathways and for whose existence no anatomist has ever found any evidence) and the so- called “chi” or “life force”. To take an example, acupuncture spielers claim that sticking needles in your foot will cure your stomach ache. LOL! There is no nerve connecting the foot with the stomach.

“all real accupuncturists order sanitized ONE use needles which are thrown away after first use. All real accupuncturists don't use modern amatuer experimental techniques like running electricity through or heating up of the needles.” And this is relevant how? I never accused them of doing any of this. Actually if they DID use heat or electricity it might have some effect (though this has never been proven).

“I don’t know what your experience with acupuncture is that has you so turned off to it”. At the risk of boring everybody, I repeat, I know it’s bunkum because independent scientists who have studied it universally tell me it is bunkum. I don’t have to personally experience it. Do you demand “personal experience” as proof when a chemicals expert tells you dioxin is highly poisonous, or when a zoologist tells you the lion is a deadly dangerous animal?

"Your bias and your ignorance in this is really rather amazing.” It’s amazing that you claim to see any “bias” in what I say, or that you who are so obviously ignorant of acupuncture have the hide to accuse ME of being ignorant of it. For Pete’s sake, you can’t even spell it!

“how about instead of telling us how widely condemned it is, you find us an actual study that shows how inneffective acupuncture is. until then, i'll consider all your so- called medical journal evidence as so much hogwash next to the two doctors who tell me that it works.” OK here’s 27 of them to get you started. http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

You see, pauly boy, being a Catholic doesn't mean, as the bigots say, putting your brain into neutral and believing everything you're told. Quite the opposite.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 15, 2004.

“do you consider Hildegard of Bingen a quack, too? She wrote about the curative properties of natural plants.” (GT) Natural plants? Are there any unnatural plants? As I already said, herbal extracts were the mainstay of medicine up to the 18th century. Doctors who used them used the best knowledge available THEN. Anyone who sells them in the 21st century as an "alternative" to standardized purified drugs with known measurable efficacy and safety, is a quack.

Interesting how paul doesn’t tell Davey boy off for his totally irrelevant change of topic.

No Dorian, I didn’t graduate from medical school but anyone with a little insight can usually tell science from pseudo-science (though I admit at times it can be difficult as the spielers muddy the waters). I certainly don’t claim to be an omnipotent medical expert, nor did I claim that everyone gets over CFS in a couple of years.

“Yes, we all go off topic, but really Steve. Anny's question (paraphrased) was 'Is it a sin to take meds to get rid of ailments instead of praying for God for miraculous healing?' So far all you've done is try to debunk valid, alternatives to Western Medicine Techniques, acting like they were Snake Charm gags, and try to get in bickering matches “

I fully answered Anon’s question, and helped him/her further by SUCCESSFULLY debunking INVALID NON-alternatives to SCIENTIFICALLY BASED medical techniques. I have not tried to bicker.

“You also seem unfamiliar with Scientific Theory: What distinguishes a scientific theory from a non-scientific theory is that a scientific theory must be refutable in principle; a set of circumstances must potentially exist such that if observed it would logically prove the theory wrong. Summary A scientific theory must be testable. It must be possible in principle to prove it wrong. Experiments are the sole judge of scientific truth. Scientific method: observations, hypothesis/theory, experiment (test), revision of theory.” That’s exactly what I’ve been saying. God knows why you think I seem unfamiliar with it!

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 15, 2004.

Steve, giving your opinion, but not giving any concrete scientific data isn't the same as 'debunking' anything. It's still just your opinion.

Which seeing as you've never gone to school to learn the techniques, nor had them practiced on you personally, nor (I guestimate) has anyone close to you that you trust had any Alternative Healing Treatments practiced on them you're only giving your uneducated opinion on.

You seem to be the person that's mistaking some person who goes off for a 2 hour Adult Education Course that glosses over a topic with an actual medical doctor.

And since you seem keen on talking about Acupuncture.

WHAT IS MEDICAL ACUPUNCTURE? IS IT DIFFERENT FROM ORDINARY ACUPUNCTURE? Acupuncture is a very old medical art, and there are many approaches to learning and practicing it. Medical acupuncture is the term used to describe acupuncture performed by a doctor trained and licensed in Western medicine who has also had thorough training in acupuncture as a specialty practice. Such a doctor can use one or the other approach, or a combination of both as the need arises, to treat an illness.

WHAT IS THE SCOPE OF MEDICAL ACUPUNCTURE? Medical acupuncture is a system which can influence three areas of health care:

promotion of health and well-being, prevention of illness, treatment of various medical conditions. While acupuncture is often associated with pain control, in the hands of a well-trained practitioner it has much broader applications. Acupuncture can be effective as the only treatment used, or as the support or adjunct to other medial treatment forms in many medical and surgical disorders.The World Health Organization recognizes the use of acupuncture in the treatment of a wide range of medical problems, including:

Digestive disorders: gastritis and hyperacidity, spastic colon, constipation, diarrhea. Respiratory disorders: sinusitis, sore throat, bronchitis, asthma, recurrent chest infections. Neurological and muscular disorders: headaches, facial tics, neck pain, rib neuritis, frozen shoulder, tennis elbow, various forms of tendinitis, low back pain, sciatica, osteoarthritis. Urinary, menstrual, and reproductive problems. Acupuncture is particularly useful in resolving physical problems related to tension and stress and emotional conditions.

If you have questions about a specific illness or disorder not listed above, you can usually have your questions answered by medical acupuncturists practicing in your area.

DOES ACUPUNCTURE REALLY WORK? Yes. In the past 2,000 years, more people have been successfully treated with acupuncture than with all other health modalities combined. Today acupuncture is practiced widely in Asia, the Soviet Union, and in Europe. It is now being used more and more in America by patients and physicians. Acupuncture treatments can be given at the same time other techniques are being used, such as conventional Western medicine,osteopathic or chiropractic adjustments, and homeopathic ornaturopathic prescriptions. It is important that your physician-acupuncturist know everything that you are doing, so he or she can help you get the most benefit from all your treatments.

DO I HAVE TO BELIEVE IN ACUPUNCTURE FOR IT TO WORK? No. Acupuncture is used successfully on cats, dogs, horses and other animals. These animal patients do not understand or believein the process that helps them get better. A positive attitude toward wellness may reinforce the effects of the treatment received, just as a negative attitude may hinder the effects of acupuncture or any other treatment. A neutral attitude ("I don't know if I really believe in this.") will not block the treatment results.

IS ACUPUNCTURE COVERED BY HEALTH INSURANCE? Some insurance companies currently cover acupuncture costs, other companies do not yet recognize the value of acupuncture. Each health policy must be reviewed to determine acupuncture benefits. More and more insurance companies are recognizing the value of providing coverage for medical acupuncture services. You can help by insisting that your insurance company offer you reimbursement for medically indicated acupuncture treatments before you accept their policy.

I'm not going to cut and paste all nite just because you're being bullheaded. But apparently it's not all a hoax, the way you were raised to believe, because if it was, then it and Shiatsu wouldn't still be having such success in helping clients have better lives free from pain ect.

Anyone who wants more FAQs answers, or has questions just go here it's a fairly decent site from the cursory glance I gave it.

http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/articles/aboutacupuncture.h tml

Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian

Enlightened Rohastu, Happy Hanukah, Bah Humbug, Merry Christmas, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year

-- Dorian (blah@yahoo.com), December 15, 2004.

steve,

Yeah that doesn’t surprise me, since you had an equal amount of trust in a homosexual “couple” and a married couple as adoptive parents.

just to note, this is the statement where you essentially flamed dorians arguement by insinuating that her opinion on homosexual couples adopting. note, this isnt a cut and paste, it was your whole bullet point.

next, i've already made clear that my uncle is a doctor, and that the prescriptions he orders through dr feng are legal prescriptions. if you can't bother to read, steve, then this discussion isnt worth pursuing.

then, the only page you have pointed us to is a sight called quack watch, which only points out that acupuncture is as yet not tested, although it does mention that it has seemed to produce results. but even then, the site is run by one rogue MD writing his opinion. I've already got two on my side, where was the medical journal you promised steve? in fact, where are the glaring claims that acupunture is proven not to work, since you asserted that so many studies had shown this. on a final note on this point, i'm comparing your linked sight, quack watch, to the california board of acupunture research (a government agency). i'd say in the arguement by authority field, you're definately falling behind.

Next, you point out my spelling. i type at about 60 WPM when correcting all errors, and closer to 75 WPM when typing as i do now. if you want completely correct posts then i'll be glad to type out abbreviated notes at 60 WPM and email them to you so that you can expand on them and post them for me. otherwise, i'm a busy student with finals to take, i have better things to do than waste ten minutes reading through and correcting every time i habitually hit a key twice instead of once. if you'd like, after finals, i will gladly correct the grammar of your posts so we can both self improve, but i generally regard this as a waste of time, since i figure i know what you meant and dont need to bring it up as an arguement.

as to your hesitance over the use of meridians to discover acupuncture locations... hogwash. ancient egyptians didnt know what dendrytes (sp?) were, and yet they had successful brain surgery. your logic is baffling, anything about medicine not discovered before modern anatomy and dissection isnt right? its amazing you go to the doctor at all steve. just as a note, even the page you linked leads to notes which indicate that the meridians seem to lie over concentrated nerve centers, as comparing a chart of the meridians and the main nervous systems would also as easily show you.

as far as i'm concerned steve, you have failed to produce any evidence to back your ludicrous claim that acupuncture is a fraud. now, if you dont have anything more to say to back your point, i dont see any purpose in continuing this discussion.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 15, 2004.

as a side note, to assauge your feeling that two days wasnt long to refrain, if you watch the posting patterns closely during the times when i'm more active, you'll know that i check into this website at least 4 times a day. That means that in the last two days, over fourteen posts, i have restrained from posting at least 8 times to give other people a chance to say their part. i wasnt going to wait a week and let the thread die.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 15, 2004.

JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) 12/6/2000; 284:2755-2761

For those of you non-medical folks, JAMA is one of the most, if not THE most respected and widely read professional medical journals in the United States, as well as around the world.

In this particular issue, JAMA reported a study done at the National Institute of Health in Bethesda, Maryland by Joannie Shen, MD which involved researching the use of acupuncture, both "regular" acupuncture and electroacupuncture in the treatment of nausea and vomiting in bone marrow transplant patients.

There was such a significant lessening of the incidence of nausea and vomiting in the two groups of patients who received EITHER "regular" acupuncture treatments, plus routine medications or electroacupuncture treatments plus routine medications over the control group who received only routine medications that the researchers at NIH suggested that "acupuncture may be useful in some patients for whom medications will not alleviate nausea and vomiting."

Also:

In another highly significant and prestigous publication, the BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL..June 25, 2000 Dr. Vivienne Nathanson, on behalf of the British Medical Association, stated, "There is reasonable scientific evidence acupuncture is effective for chronic illnesses where sufferers usually take pain- killers for a long period of time." The report, entitled, "Acupuncture: Efficacy, Safety and Practice" which was researched by the British Medical Associations' Board of Science and Education, recommended that acupuncture be integrated into the British National Health Service.

It specifically identified its' beneficial role in alleviating nausea and vomiting, back and dental pain and migraine headaches.

With the publication of such articles in the highly regarded medical journals of JAMA and the British Medical Journal, along with the adoption of the use of acupuncture by the entire British National Health system, one cannot ignore the fact that indeed, acupuncture has its' place in modern scientific Medicine.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 15, 2004.

OK this is last time I’m going to say this, because I’m clearly talking to a brick wall. Saying that disproven and unproven treatments do not work is not “just my uneducated opinion”, it’s the basis of all science. The scientific methods which you outlined so well Dorian, show that the so-called "alernative treatments" do not work. Wherther the ‘practitioner” has been learning about them for 2 hours or ten years makes no difference to whether they work. Whether I personally or anyone I trust has personally used or experienced them makes no difference to whether they work. If scientific experiments show they don’t work, THEY DON'T WORK, even if personal anecdotal experiences suggest they might. Yes Dorian we all know that there is a vast amount of dis-information on the Web put out by people selling so-called “alternative” treatments, but please don’t clog up this site with reams of it.

Paul H. no I didn’t “flame” Dorian. SHE has made no objection to that statement though she has vigorously debated others I have made. The only one objecting to it is you. It seems Dorian isn’t as thin- skinned as some of the big tough menfolk around here. And no I don’t “value money too much”. We should use that tainted thing to achieve good. As your grandad would almost certainly have recovered from his illness with or without the “alternative treatment”, the money he spent on it achieved nothing but to make “Dr” Feng richer and your grandad poorer. A similar placebo effect could have been achieved at little or no cost, with say, sugar pills.

The fact that your uncle is a registered doctor does NOT automatically mean that everything he prescribes is a legal prescription. Doctors can prescribe only medicines which are registered with the FDA. A medical degree is not a license to prescribe ANYTHING.

“where was the medical journal you promised steve?” I gave you a page with no less than 27 articles comprehensively debunking acupuncture. If you can’t be bothered to read them then this discussion isn’t worth pursuing.

We all make spelling mistakes, but if you’re going to have the hide to accuse me of being ignorant of “accupunture”(sic) you should at least get THAT word right to save yourself from total embarrassment.

Lesley, the National Council Against Health Fraud has concluded:

· Acupuncture is an unproven mode of treatment.

· Its theory and practice are based on primitive and fanciful concepts of health and disease that bear no relationship to present scientific knowledge.

· Research has never demonstrated that acupuncture is effective against any disease.

· Perceived effects of acupuncture are probably due to a combination of expectation, suggestion, counter-irritation, conditioning, and other psychologic mechanisms.

· The use of acupuncture should be restricted to appropriate research settings. · Insurance companies should not be required to cover acupuncture treatment. · Licensure of acupuncturists should be phased out.

· Consumers who wish to try acupuncture should discuss their situation with a knowledgeable physician who has no commercial interest.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 15, 2004.

"..We all make spelling mistakes, but if you’re going to have the hide to accuse me of being ignorant of “accupunture”(sic) you should at least get THAT word right to save yourself from total embarrassment."

Actually Steve what does his mispelling one word have to do with anything? You should stop "sticking" your nose in everyones bussiness and save your-self embarrasment. I don't think this is "total embarrasment"! Stick to the topic at hand Stevey-boy and stop the adhominen attacks on the mans spelling.

And can you show me were paul said his grand- Daddy spent any money? Is this something you dreamed up? It could of been a favor.

Ease up friend!

PS: Good luck with the finals little paul and don't waste your time with this bag of hot air. He'll spin every word that comes out of your mouth. Its a no win situation because he won't stop. He's addicted to getting the last word.

-- - (David@excite.com), December 15, 2004.

Good grief Steve..I'm not going to waste any more of my time responding to posts where you refuse to even consider other people's points of view or in this case, very valid REFERENCED professional medical journal articles.

To do so would tempt me to be uncharitable.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 15, 2004.

Oh and Paul, Dr Stephen Barrett the head of Quackwatch, far from being “a rogue”, has spent decades EXPOSING the rogues, for which he has received numerous awards and commendations from government and professional authorities.

“can you show me were paul said his grand- Daddy spent any money? Is this something you dreamed up? It could of been a favor.” No, Davey, the only reason for the existence of quackery is to extract money from the patient. I’m sure in the extremely unlikely event that “Dr” Feng had provided his dubious services for nothing out of the sheer goodness of his heart, Paul would have quickly told me so. You’re grasping at straws Davey boy. You add to YOUR “embarrasment” (sic) every time you hit the keyboard.

Lesley, points of view can be anything people want them to be. Scientific proof is another. I strongly urge you to follow the advice of the National Council Against Health Fraud if you are considering getting acupuncture. And of course, pray.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 15, 2004.

PAUL: good luck on your finals :) And the Ancient Egyptians also seemed able to do surgery..amputation of a toe.I'm hazy, don't remember the article. lol. But it was intentional, and the patient not only survived, but healed and survived until old age.

LESLEY: Great mentions of journals :) Btw. I know alot of people say as a last resort they've tried using accupuncture to help them quit smoking. Any idea if that new 'Laser Treatment to kick smoking' works on accupuncture somehow? (no I don't smoke, and I supposed I could just stroll in and ask the place..but I thought you might have heard of it as well. lol) Thanx.

STEVE: Actually though not thin skinned, I did protest to your intentional use of my personal still strongly believed opinions from a different board, that have to do with a very different subject, on this board. And specifically asked you to stop cross topic posting.

I find your statement >>Consumers who wish to try acupuncture should discuss their situation with a knowledgeable physician who has no commercial interest.>> immensely humorous.

Physicians are PAID to promote various medical treatments, procedures and even medicines to thier patients. You might even say in a technical sense 'bribed' (Ever gone to a Doctor's office and gotten a sample of the latest drug the drug company is peddleing for your particular ailment? You know what I mean then. And for those (just Steve I'll bet) who say that's not true..then why aren't the Drug Companies, giving more (if any) samples of older drugs? Or Generic Drugs? Or drugs that the drug company has lost money on because it's gone OTC?)

You're physician isn't (usually) going to suggest anything he has no commercial interest in. He's not getting any kickbacks from the drug company if he suggests it's rival.

That's like going into a restaraunt that only carried Coca Cola products and asking for a Mountain Dew. Or if they like the newest mountain dew flavor 'Red' (or whatever it's called). It's probably just not going to happen.

They are also extreamly busy, most doctors are specialists. You can't learn about very up to date nutrition from your cardiologist. That's why s/he has to send you to a Nutritionist.

If your doctor didn't specifically take any Alternative Medicine Courses, they usually can't personally refer you to anyone. Unless they're very well read, and aware of the other competent doctors in your area.

You'd be better off asking the doctors Nurse. Because many nurses who spend more time with the patients take myomassology, touch for health, reiki, Shiatsu courses & other Alternative Complimentary Health Courses.

And in turn inform the doctor of the advances in the field by bringing various medical journals to thier attention.

Some doctors see the benefit of combineing the Eastern Healing Arts with thier Western Learning, and end up better Physicians.

If you think Meridians, ect..are bunk. Then I suggest you walk into your local Martial Arts Dojo and tell the Dojo Sensei you not only don't believe in meridians, you think chi & meridians are complete hogwash.

Then let her/him use you as a practice target.

We'll see how long your disbelief in meridians ect..keep you from feeling any pain after s/he's targeted your vulnerable pressure points. And I don't mean a cheap shot to the goulies.

I don't actually care that you personally are so sheltered that you're incapable of broadening your horizons, or experiencing new techniques of healing. I only pray that if a time ever came, that you found yourself in a position to (need) and experience an alternative healing technique that you wouldn't let yourself suffer/get worse/die out of stubborness, just because you felt you had be continue to be bullheaded and right in your narrow opinions.

Hopefully Western Medicine will always be there for you and help you out 100% all on it's own when you need it.

So far everyone's said, and it's my turn to say it now. Alternative Healing is another subject I don't choose to converse with you any longer. Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian

In an effort to include readers of all faiths: Enlightened Rohastu, Happy Hanukah, Bah Humbug, Merry Christmas, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year

-- Dorian (BlahAndYadda@yahoo.com), December 16, 2004.

Dave, thanks for your support, yes, i have a bad habit of hitting certain consonants twice when typing, but i dont consider that as consequential, just as i disregard the fact that steve apparently doesnt know that the proper abreviation for Doctor is Dr. with a period. Finals went well, i took my electromagnatism yesterday instead of today so that i could get some personal work done tomorrow on registration and loan stuff. but now that i'm done for the semester i look forward to a great christmas and hope you all will do the same.

Steve,

I don't even know where to begin to debunk your seeming religious devotion to Dr. Barrett, but i know that after a good hour of perusing his site, that he's a self inflated and deceptive author. For example, your lovely quote from the NCAHF, taken directly from his site, fails entirely to mention the fact that hte NCAHF was formed by dr barrett and is made up of hand picked "like minded collegues." that doesnt even begin to consitute a non-biased scientific opinion, steve. the fact that he doesnt even mention this also points to deception, as he tries to make it appear he is quoting a seperate authority other than his own opinion, though that is not the case.

next, we should note that while Dr. Barrett had a liscence, he is not a current liscensed medical practitioner. how do we know how up to date he is on current studies of new treatment options?

next, the organization "quackwatch" doesnt even sound official. a little research ON HIS SITE notes that quackwatch is admittedly a basement project in Dr. Barrett's house. that, i'm sure though, makes it a fully qualified medical database. I searched, but couldnt find anything on the "awards" that you mentioned he recieved. the greatest accolade of his that i found was that some normal people wrote him and said that they decided not to get alternative medicine based on his deceptive site. but by all means, please point me to the page listing Dr. Barretts awards.

Next, he cheated on his sources. I know people who do it all the time. You find a source that's even remotely noted as being about the same topic, and you include it, even though you make no reference to the information contained therein, and you simply hope that people won't research it and discover that all you've done is load your page with false sources to look impressive. take, for example:

source 9) contains details of how information on acupuncture is collected... but also contains an interesting graph noting how, out of 45 stroke patients, all but three preferred the acupuncture treatment to the control method. thats about 93 percent in favor of acupuncture. dr. barrett fails to mention this fact.

source 10) describes the statistics of those who can recognize a placebo needle verses a normal needle. information is not referenced in paper, ergo should not be included as a professional source for the paper.

source 11) notes a significant decrease in postoperative nausea and vomiting (PONV) in the area of gynealogical surgery, a 7 percent decrease in overall, and a strong statistical connection to the reduction of vomiting cases. none of these findings in favor of accupuncture are mentioned on the page, and therefore should not be included as a source.

source 14) indicates that in 32,000 cases, only 43 significant negative effects were reported. gee, arent we glad that western medicine is that successful, oh wait, thats right, malpractice lawsuits are skyrocketing. a total of 2,135 minor events such as bruising were reported. 96 out of 10,000 experienced aggravation of symptoms, although 70% of those noted that overall the symptoms improved from base state after a brief aggravation.

source 20) is a source from his own organization. you dont have to put yourself as a source, we know its your opinion.

So you see steve, you have been blinded by your bias and your unwillingness to accurately research the sources claimed. next source please.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 16, 2004.

“I find your statement >>Consumers who wish to try acupuncture should discuss their situation with a knowledgeable physician who has no commercial interest.>> immensely humorous.” It’s not MY statement, Dorian, it’s the official advice from the National Council Against Health Fraud.

Yes I know all about (probably more than you) the underhand promotional tactics of drug companies. You think they are the only big bad capitalists and that people selling “alternative” therapies are motivated only by their sheer love for humanity. Take the blinkers off Dor. “Alternative” medicine is promoted far more aggressively and underhandedly than scientific (not “Western”) meicine which actually works. And there are far fewer legal controls on “alternative” medicine, so they get away with all sorts of totally false claims about their products. Medical experts in government health authorities, public hospitals. Academia etc have nothing to gain financially from advising us not to use “alternative” medicine.

Yes the so-called “meridians” are hogwash and would remain hogwash even if one of your beloved pagan kung fu thugs were to beat me to death.

If you are so personally sheltered that you won’t look at the scientific evidence but choose to rely on what some nurse who’s read some bunkum promotion for “alternative” medicine tells you, that’s up to you. But I assure you I will NEVER “need” “alternative” medicine, just as you will never NEED it, although you might WANT it thanks to its clever marketers.

“steve apparently doesnt know that the proper abreviation for Doctor is Dr. with a period.” Paul apparently doesn’t know that the proper title for a man who is NOT a doctor is “Mr”. And no, if an abbreviation includes the last letter of the word, you don’t use a period.

You’re the one with “religious devotion” to unscientific nonsense remedies Paul. I don’t have “bias”, I treat all claimed remedies equally by demanding that they pass scientific proof that they work, just as all treatments accepted by proper doctors have to be proven. It’s you who are biased, in insisting that anything that calls itself “alternative” has to pass only a far lower standard of “proof”; that any study or report, however flawed, that suggests any “alternative” treatment just might possibly do some good in some partyicular case, must be accepted as proof that it does, in that case and in all cases. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Instead of nitpicking one site that tries to expose the rip-offs, look at the evidence instead of blindly following anyone who claims he can sell you something to cure you. You’re welcome to waste your money on nonsense remedies, just please don’t promote them on a Catholic site. Otherwise as I said, visitors here will only be confirmed in their prejudiced belief that Catholics are fools who are willing to believe anything a clever spieler sells them to promote his product. And will infer the same regarding our Holy Faith.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 16, 2004.

Dorian,

(Ever gone to a Doctor's office and gotten a sample of the latest drug the drug company is peddleing for your particular ailment?

Most doctors I know hoard free samples to treat the indigent who can't afford medication that is required for them, and let better off people pay for theirs (that and they treat their families for free). Also, there's a REASON there are new drugs, usually they do something better. For example, azythromycin is more expensive, but has less side effects than erythromycin. Augmentin treats many more diseases than penicillin G. If your doctor wants to give you something, try asking him why rather than assuming he has some ulterior motive. Or better yet, ask your Reiki healer to PROVE their treatment works before paying him for it. That's what always cracks me up about you guys, you'll think you are getting ripped off when you are given a drug that's been researched for years and cost tens of millions of dollars to produce and is PROVEN to be effective, and yet you'll believe anything some "alternative healer" tells you. Sheesh.

.then why aren't the Drug Companies, giving more (if any) samples of older drugs?

Because they want you to prescribe the new ones, obviously. That doesn't mean doctors do, though. Doctors hear a lot of drug company b.s., I'd be suprised if many of them did what some salesman told them to. OTOH, I've seen a lot of people who believe in alternative medicine go from one type of practitioner to another paying cash all the way when none of them really did anything.

You're physician isn't (usually) going to suggest anything he has no commercial interest in. He's not getting any kickbacks from the drug company if he suggests it's rival.

If you have an infection, the insurance company pays one for treating it, there's no difference whether you use drug x or y. How many physicains do you think have commercial interest in the drugs they prescribe? Not many, I'd bet.

They are also extreamly busy, most doctors are specialists. You can't learn about very up to date nutrition from your cardiologist. That's why s/he has to send you to a Nutritionist.

That's exactly right. On the other hand, if you go to an acupunturist, an aromatherapist, or a "healing touch" person, they are experts in EVERYTHING, and they become so without all the years of training. Yep, that makes sense. Go to the person with the least training who says they are the expert in the most things AND pay in cash for it! If real doctors were as unethical, believe me they could make a fortune using their title on T.V. recommending some of the garbage people buy, but who would work so hard to do that just for money? No one I know.

If your doctor didn't specifically take any Alternative Medicine Courses, they usually can't personally refer you to anyone.

This is true, a lot of doctors don't know many people who practice cupping or magnetic healing, I'd say that's a good thing. Medicine should be based on proven results, not snake oil.

You'd be better off asking the doctors Nurse. Because many nurses who spend more time with the patients take myomassology, touch for health, reiki, Shiatsu courses & other Alternative Complimentary Health Courses.

"I'm having a heart attack, don't give me a cardiac cath, I want a Reiki treatment!" Make sure your doctor's nurse's malpractice is paid up.

Some doctors see the benefit of combineing the Eastern Healing Arts with thier Western Learning, and end up better Physicians.

I agree with this in the following scenario: Guy comes in with an inflamed appendix, needs to be removed. He flat out refuses unless there's aromatherapy in the O.R. Use aromatherapy and save idiot's life. Great mix of East and West.

Then I suggest you walk into your local Martial Arts Dojo and tell the Dojo Sensei you not only don't believe in meridians, you think chi & meridians are complete hogwash.

Then let her/him use you as a practice target.

Walk onto a rifle range and say you don't believe in meridians, get shot in torso and die. Rifle 1 goof 0. Gee, I can think of at least ONE reason someone who spends their life becoming a karate expert could beat up a "guy on the street" without resorting to meridians...

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 16, 2004.

Steve "Frank", You're showing how much you 'don't' know about Reiki now.

Many Reiki Masters don't charge for treatment, and they have done quite a bit for thier clients.. Those that do, usually take a charity donation (which is how ever much the client decides they think is fair).

The idea behind new drugs is supposed to be that they have less side effects and can treat more people. But the fact of the matter is it's not like you're going to go to your doctor and if your indigent (which in this day and age means you're a senior citizen or someone without health insurance, or need mental health meds) he's not going to just hand you all the free samples you need for your ailment to completely heal, or until your cured.

Just because a drugs been researched for a little while, doesn't mean they know everything about it. Nor that it will 'cure' you. That's why so many people (especially those seeking mental health treatments) have to try so many different meds. By your own theory, you should have your doctor 'prove' he can cure/alieviate your symptoms before you have to fork over any money. And if he can't you should stick with him, and not be able to try going to a different doctor, even if this other guys an expert. Because you'll not only have to pay the first doctor for your doctors office visit, but for his tests, and any meds he perscribed. And then do the same thing when you go to the new doctor.

And no, just becuase I'm an advocate of alternative healing techniques doesn't mean I believe 'anything' my Reiki (Master) Healer (who isn't a doctor but has been practicing Reiki among other healing techniques for over 30 yrs..and who coincidentally says up front that she's 'NOT' a doctor and her treatments shouldnt' be used in place of seeing a Medical Doctor) says over a Medical Western Doctor, or Alternative Doctor (read Naturopathic or Homeopathic DOCTOR. not quack. a real liscensed by the state practicing Medical Doctor.)

Yes, people who put all of thier trust and faith into only one human being are rather foolish. (unless it's Jesus Christ, who's also More than Human as he's the Son of God as well) That's why being an informed patient, and asking for referals and 2nd or more professional opinions is good. As well as doing all the research you can on your own.

And yes, you are being ripped off if your doctors just using you like a glorfied guinea pig hopeing that some new medicine will fix something when he's not even sure of what you have.

>>>.then why aren't the Drug Companies, giving more (if any) samples of older drugs?

Because they want you to prescribe the new ones, obviously. That doesn't mean doctors do, though. Doctors hear a lot of drug company b.s., I'd be suprised if many of them did what some salesman told them to. OTOH, I've seen a lot of people who believe in alternative medicine go from one type of practitioner to another paying cash all the way when none of them really did anything.>>>

Drug companies only retain the patent on the exact formula for some drugs for a certain amount of time. Once it's up, it's no longer perscription and can be sold over the counter and be produced by other companies or generically or some such thing.

Example the Allergy medicine Claritin. The drug company lost quite a bit of money when they ended up selling it over the counter recently. So they came up with other RX Claritin D & whatever that new one is.

So they're not pushing Claritin D because it's necessarily better for everyone, or has less side effects. They're now pushing that one and handing out samples of the new one because if patients like it, they can still rake in heaps of money off the prescriptions.

Some doctor offices get kick backs for pushing meds.

To the point that the drug companies, hoping that patients that weren't offered thier companies drugs would find out about them by watching TV Ads or reading about them in magazines would ask thier doctors for perscriptions or get an Rx for a sample.

And yes the Doctors 'do' suggest the new drugs, and have the samples around and don't just pass them off the ones that are in the lowest pay brackets to be nice. (though it's great for the Drs that are that thoughtful).

And all those people you see going from one Alt. Medicine Practicioner to another, are probably the same people who've gone from one MD to another trying to get helped too. And loads of MD's don't do much, if anything either.

Which now leads me to the point of saying that I've got nothing against Western & Eastern Doctors, there are wonderful wo/men in both fields that have dedicated thier lives to serving humankind.

It's just that some person (because I think Steve just wanted to gripe more so he lied about his name) are bullheaded and think they 'must' be the ultimate know it all. Because sorry Frank you make the same hollow opinionated guestimations Steve was making about subjects you don't seem terribly familiar with as well. But it's not up to me to push any knowlege on you 'you' don't feel like learning.

Everyone's at different stages of development. God will see that you're provided for.

>>>If you have an infection, the insurance company pays one for treating it, there's no difference whether you use drug x or y. >>>

To the insurance company. But to the Drug company that sees the year end tally there could be a bonus. Or fringe benefits. (blatant guestimation on my part..dare I say even a nudge, nudge, wink, wink conspiracy theory)

>>>if you go to an acupunturist, an aromatherapist, or a "healing touch" person, they are experts in EVERYTHING, and they become so without all the years of training. >>>

Why do you think that liscensed Accupunturists, ect..just wake up certified? They go to school just the same as anyone else & have boards to pass to get thier liscense ect. And unless they've had schooling in a different field, they're going to know pretty much only about thier own field as well.

What you say is absurd. You wouldn't go to your Aromatherapist and ask her/him to extract your tooth. You'd go to a dentist. (and hope to God! he had some clary sage to help take the edge off whilst your novacaine was kicking in before he yanked your tooth out.)

>>> a lot of doctors don't know many people who practice cupping or magnetic healing, I'd say that's a good thing. Medicine should be based on proven results, not snake oil.>>>

Eastern Doctors might practice cupping. So might your myomassologist. I've seen it done (by the sports massage therapist) is looked painful as Hades, and I was happy I didn't have to have it done to me.

I'm actually a mite iffy on the whole magnetic healing bit. I'll stick to practicing Shiatsu, Aromatherapy, Touch for Health, Theraputic Touch & Reiki.

You'd be better off asking the doctors Nurse. Because many nurses who spend more time with the patients take myomassology, touch for health, reiki, Shiatsu courses & other Alternative Complimentary Health Courses.

>>>"I'm having a heart attack, don't give me a cardiac cath, I want a Reiki treatment!" >>

Why would you ask your nurse for heart surgery? You don't ask for a Reiki treatment, instead of a cardiologist. You're Doctor/Nurse wouldnt' even tell you s/he was using it in conjunction with your normal exam/check up/surgery.

I guess you didn't realize that Nurses have been learning those techniques and it's been encouraged by the doctor/hospital, to help them augment thier people skills. Particularily thier post surgical/recovery skills.

>>>Some doctors see the benefit of combineing the Eastern Healing Arts with thier Western Learning, and end up better Physicians.

Guy comes in with an inflamed appendix, needs to be removed. He flat out refuses unless there's aromatherapy in the O.R. Use aromatherapy and save idiot's life. >>

Only one idiot I can see here.

To explain YET AGAIN: it's something you use in conjunction with Western Practices.

Aromatherapy isn't something you even use in place of surgery.

But it'd be something you could pipe into the air vents in the rooms. Like they do in many UK hospitals to help cut down on spread of bacteria/viruses & help the patients breath. (It was either a synergistic blend of Lavender & Lemon oil..or it was just one or the other..don't have perfect recall today.)

>>>Gee, I can think of at least ONE reason someone who spends their life becoming a karate expert could beat up a "guy on the street" without resorting to meridians... >>

Apparently you think that meridians (pressure points) and chi have nothing to do with Martial Arts think whatever you want, but they're not a option, or something that's 'resorted to'. Strike points are the same and have the same effects even if you don't want to believe in them or the meridians they lie on.

And for the record a martial arts expert wouldn't have any reason, nor would they want to 'beat up' any shemp off the street.

Steve "Frank" just let it go. No matter if you call yourself Shirley in your reply. I'm not talking about this anymore with you.

And by the very 'slime' chance that you're not Steve. It's an honest mistake. No insult to either of you implied.

Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian

in an effort to include all faiths with a december holiday left: Bah Humbug, Merry Christmas, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year

-- Dorian (ShiatsuReikiSisBoomBah@yahoo.com), December 17, 2004.

Dorian,

I'm not "Steve", although for all I know YOU are.

Many Reiki Masters don't charge for treatment, and they have done quite a bit for thier clients.. Those that do, usually take a charity donation (which is how ever much the client decides they think is fair).

Not to mention they are so well trained. In fact, it takes almost 24-48 HOURS to become a Reiki master, and of course, $67.00 Link to Reiki for the strong of stomach

Here's a quote: You can become a Usui Reiki Master within 48 hours – 24 if you’re really in a hurry. So…

In just a few short hours from now, you’ll be healing yourself, loved ones, friends and family – not forgetting your plants and animals too.

Not only can you heal people, but your plants and animals too!

Man Dorian, how could anyone overlook a professional like that? Think of all those morons who go to medical school, internship and residency spending 8-12 years AFTER a college education to become a physician when you could become a healer of everything in 1-2 days. Boggles the mind.

it's not like you're going to go to your doctor and if your indigent (which in this day and age means you're a senior citizen or someone without health insurance, or need mental health meds) he's not going to just hand you all the free samples you need for your ailment to completely heal, or until your cured.

You'd be suprised. If you don't have a penny, you get treated in the Emergency room, and many MDs continue the care of the people they pick up ad infinitum. I kind of doubt "Dr. Lance" can say the same.

Just because a drugs been researched for a little while, doesn't mean they know everything about it.

Most definitely true, but they DO know it does something, as opposed to doing nothing like you find in "alternative medicine".

Nor that it will 'cure' you. That's why so many people (especially those seeking mental health treatments) have to try so many different meds.

Mental health is different than an infection. An infection is well defined and easy to treat (by a real physician) whereas most mental health conditions aren't 100% curable with anything yet, and in many cases aren't even fully understood. OTOH, I can't say I've seen drug reps pushing Haldol or lithium either, LOL! You should really stick to one topic of discussion in order for this to make sense.

By your own theory, you should have your doctor 'prove' he can cure/alieviate your symptoms before you have to fork over any money.

The funny part is you SHOULD do this! Not everything works for everyone, but you SHOULD get your doctor to tell you that the medicine they are giving you has been proven to work for what you have. Again, not a guarantee it will work for YOU, but a guarantee it is proven TO WORK. That's the difference between real medicine and Reiki, real medicine HAS been shown to work!

And yes, you are being ripped off if your doctors just using you like a glorfied guinea pig hopeing that some new medicine will fix something when he's not even sure of what you have.

What? You'd be a fool to go to the doctor anyhow. Go to a Reiki Master and have them cure you, your fish, and your sickly houseplants at the same time!

Example the Allergy medicine Claritin. The drug company lost quite a bit of money when they ended up selling it over the counter recently. So they came up with other RX Claritin D & whatever that new one is.

Actually, Claritin is an antihistamine, Claritin D is an antihistamine AND decongestant combination. If all you need is the antihistamine, that's all you should take. No one is trying to force Claritin D on anybody. BTW, Claritin, and drugs like it are much better than their predecessors in terms of non-drowsiness and duration of efficacy. The other drug I'm happy to see become OTC is Prilosec. Works wonders, though probably not as good as strapping a couple of magnets over your belly ;-)

Some doctor offices get kick backs for pushing meds.

Some doctors commit medicare fraud. Sooner or later things catch up to wrongdoers.

And all those people you see going from one Alt. Medicine Practicioner to another, are probably the same people who've gone from one MD to another trying to get helped too. And loads of MD's don't do much, if anything either.

What a pessimistic attitude. Be not afraid!

Because sorry Frank you make the same hollow opinionated guestimations Steve was making about subjects you don't seem terribly familiar with as well. But it's not up to me to push any knowlege on you 'you' don't feel like learning.

LOL! Dorian, if you want to have a conversation about medicine, you've come to the right place. Because I think alternative medicine for the most part is cr@p doesn't mean I'm ignorant of it, and you have yet to show any stellar knowledge of medicine yourself that would make me believe you understand real medicine better than I do, or even that you have any MORE knowledge of alternative medicine than I do. Why do you assume you are so much more educated than I am? Isn't that a little arrogant?

To the insurance company. But to the Drug company that sees the year end tally there could be a bonus. Or fringe benefits. (blatant guestimation on my part..dare I say even a nudge, nudge, wink, wink conspiracy theory)

Nope. Just insurance payments to most, although there are some fields like medical oncology where they are reimbursed depending on the drugs they use, but the government decides that, not drug companies. Again, this is different than the markup that one sees on the sales of "healing crystals", gosh knows there's no markup on those...

Why do you think that liscensed Accupunturists, ect..just wake up certified?

No, first they pay their $67.oo, THEN they wake up certified.

Eastern Doctors might practice cupping. So might your myomassologist. I've seen it done (by the sports massage therapist) is looked painful as Hades, and I was happy I didn't have to have it done to me.

I've seen the results of it too, and can't say it did any good other than raising welts. Cost money, but since it didn't go to an evil drug company, that's o.k., regardless of how poor the patient is, right?

Only one idiot I can see here.

Since we aren't in the same room, I take it you are looking in a mirror, or have a very low opinion of your spouse. In either event, try and be more positive. Maybe sucking down a faceful of St. John's wort would help.

Aromatherapy isn't something you even use in place of surgery

Ah, you've finally come on the rub of alternative medicine! People use it as an ALTERNATIVE to useful medicine until they are on death's door, making the real doctor's job more difficult. If instead "alternative medicine" "masters" quit claiming to be able to help them cure their cancer with crystals, people overall would be better off. Not likely to happen though when someone believes they can heal others by manipulating their inner energy flow.

Strike points are the same and have the same effects even if you don't want to believe in them or the meridians they lie on.

You can take a course in anatomy and learn the body's weak spots. People who have been killing each other for thousands of years have catalogued what they've found through practical experience. You don't need any faith in meridians to hurt people.

And for the record a martial arts expert wouldn't have any reason, nor would they want to 'beat up' any shemp off the street.

And yet that's what you suggested they would do if I didn't believe in meridians? Strange.

Steve "Frank" just let it go. No matter if you call yourself Shirley in your reply. I'm not talking about this anymore with you.

Cut your losses and run. Feel good about yourself without having anyone challenge your preconceived notions. A good idea, good that is until you get REALLY sick.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 17, 2004.

Frank & I are in total agreement about something. I'm getting choked up.

-- jake (j@k.e), December 17, 2004.

Well, I'm not going to pay big bucks for "healing plants" when I've got those same weeds in my backyard, which I know are not sprayed with pesticides....

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 17, 2004.

paul,

I started reading the older posts and realized I missed your response. I don't know your case, and don't know how you found more than one MD to say that someone only had a few months to live without knowing what was wrong with them, but he must have looked pretty bad. I'm glad he recovered.

I can also say I've seen people who I thought would check out who made really miraculous recoveries, and people who looked as healthy as a horse -- and then died, all without any real change from me. That is really the trouble with alternative therapies, if you go to one doctor and they say "there's nothing I can do", and you go to an crystalist and they say "if you wear this crystal, you will be cured" and you get better, you are going to say the crystal cured him, not that you bought a worthless piece of glass and you got better on his own, right? Unfortunately anecdotes of "I know someone who did this" aren't good as proof, not like randomized trials. If the accupunture didn't help, you wouldn't say it didn't work *at all*, just that it didn't work in him, so there's no way to discredit faith-based alternative therapies.

I knew a young woman who went down to Mexico for laetril rather than have her early cervix cancer removed, and didn't come back until it was metastatic. did that stop anyone from selling Laetril? Of course not. Has Laetril *cured* anyone? Not that I know of, but some people do live longer than expected, and of course that is attributed to the laetril, even if it hasn't been shown in a randomized trial to do squat.

OTOH, if it makes him feel better, and isn't actually hurting anything, I can't say there's any harm in it.

Jake,

We probably agree on many things, just not on a few important ones.

GT,

My earlier crack about St. John's wort aside, many herbs do do things, look at tobacco and caffeine. Even aspirin came from willow bark. The question for me is is it better to eat a chunk of willow bark for a small amount of active ingredient that is hard on your stomach, or pop a purified and stomach-tolerable aspirin? For me that's a no-brainer.

Of course I HAVE made dandelion vinegar, so I can't say I'm not an "alternative" kind of guy, LOL

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 17, 2004.

FRANK: I just don't know how you fail to comprehend, that Alternative Healing Techniques are supposed to be used in conjunction with. Not in Lieu of proper medical treatment.

(btw, that baloney you pointed out of going to get certified in under a day as a 'Reiki' master isn't the norm. NOR is it suggested. It doesn't make you a Master period the end.

You need to take 3 levels of training, that have at a minimum 6 (if not more, some people retake certain levels) months in between them and then apprentice under a Reiki Master for at least a year. And it's not something that ever costs under 100.

The well know american schools that teach it cost around (min) $400 on up each level and over a few $1000 on up to Apprentice for your Masters level.

They are very time and labor intensive, and you don't just sit around playing with 'glass'. You learn Ethics, Case Studies, and many MANY hours of practical experience, along with quite a bit of book work and various tests.

You pointed out yet another charlatin (imo). That'd be like going to your old fashioned Barber then expecting him to do brain surgery. It's just not recomended or suggested.

And it still goes back to the fact that you have a responsibliity as a client/patient/consumer to ask your practicioner where they went to school? How long did they study? How long have they been practicing? Do they have any professionals that can vouch for them? Did you find the person thru a 'get all your ailments cured in under 10 mins' ad? Or did you go in and fill out a medical questionare, and were you asked for your doctors referal?

Some things are too good to be true. If you don't think that it'd work, and your Medical doctor suggested it. Chances are your Reiki (or other Alternative Healing Professional) isn't going to be able to shake a rainstick (with magnets..that's for you Frank) and 'cure' it either.)

Examples of how a ethical practicioner would use Reiki: To help with pain management. Say when a person had kidney stones, and has a few days to wait (and is also using narcotics/ect at home) until the surgery. Or say the heart patient is in the hospital panicing the few days before surgery. You go in and give the patient a treatment to help calm them down and make them comfortable.

You don't do Reiki instead of getting the kidney stones removed by the head uroligist. Or use Reiki instead of letting the Heart Surgeon give you a new shunt.

And thanks. I have been really sick. I was the one with Kidney Stones. And if it wasn't for the Arnica (for pain, my herbologist perscribed) and Reiki (again for the pain) I couldn't have lasted until my Western MD, the head of the uroligy Dept and an all around EXCELLENT doctor could fit me in for surgery this past summer.

I also wouldn't be able to make it thru cold and flu season (usually) cold free without my knowlege and use of Aromatherapy.

And I wouldn't be able to go without another Allergy Shot in my life if it hadn't been for the NAET treatments.

And my Mother (who suffers from Fibromyalgia) other Family Members, Friends, and Clients wouldn't be able to have more productive, pain free lives if I hadn't learned to incoporate Shiatsu (which I've completely switched over too, instead of the usual Swedish Body Massage that all Sports Massage Therapists learn & not all continue to use as thier sole healing technique) and Reiki into thier 'Theraputic Sessions.'

And yes there's quite a demand for healing for animals. Usually beloved household pets that need to undergo sugery, or have had surgery. Or have crippling arthritis, or other illnesses.

That's not even to mention the booming massage business that goes on for prize horses ect.

I hate to be so blunt, but Jesus Christ wasn't a doctor. But he layed hands on people and healed them with prayer and well being the son of god and all. You can crack wise about alternative healing techniques, and laying on of hands all you want. (I consider Reiki to be in the Spiritual Healing laying on of hands branch personally.) But he not only healed the blind and lepers he even rose Lazarus from the dead. IHe wasn't a quack. I remember he was a carpenters son..don't think he had any framed master degrees on his wall. The physicians in that time were herbalists. They didn't have Dow Pharmecudicals to manufacture thier boneknit for them to use to help heal thier fractures. Or eucalyptus to put into thier vicks vapor rub so they could breath in the winter.

And you still have "NO PROOF" that alternative healing techniques 'do nothing'.

And what's with your fascination with magnets? (it's cracking me up. in the good way. not the being saracastic way) I know nothing about magnetic healing. I'm not even particularily certain I want to know about it. That's why I've sort of refrained from mentioning it...though I can tell you all about magnetic jewelry. And know that if you have a pace maker/bad heart you shouldn't use them as they can give you a worse problem...oh and if you wear that stuff keep it away from your computer it can wipe the memory or some such not good thing. lol.

I'm not pessamistic, nor afraid of doctors. I'm just saying that people switch doctors, and try many before they find one they think can help them (unless they're hypochondriacs..then it's pretty much hopeless. lol). So to be down on someone who searched for an Alternative Medical Doctor until they find one (in thier price range, close to home, capable of dealing with thier ailment) is unjust.

And I don't believe in anyone of any profession jacking up thier costs. Especially when the customer/client is strapped for cash. But not everyone works on a sliding pay scale. Though I've seen MORE Alternative Health Professionals use a sliding pay scale, and or barder (sp?) for services. (Ex: A painter comes to you for Shiatsu Treatments, and you work on him and he paints your living room.)

Actually the idiot I was refering too was the charlatans you and Steve keep pointing out. Too bad you wanted to take it personally. And I wouldnt' suck down a faceful of St. Johns Wort. I'd see my Holistic MD and if I needed it, I'd find out what he suggested, and then the dosage I was supposed to use. Because sucking down a faceful of any medicine. Even if it's Herbs could do more harm than good. Even lead to death if it's the wrong dosage.

And if you haven't heard. Suicide is a no no.

ETHICAL Alternative Medicine Practicioners, NEVER say they can 'cure' something, or that thier 'treatment' should be used in lieu of proper medical treatment. They also specifically say "I'm not a doctor, but this technique has worked for another client." or "Though I'm not a MD I believe you should make an appointment with yours." And last but not least, "Do you have a note from your doctor saying that s/he suggested you get "Massage" Therapy?"

I have turned clients away, or had them reschedule until such a time they could bring thier doctors referal with them. They have to fill out an extensive health questionare (the sort you would when you visit a new doctors office.) Because certain treatments are contraindicated. (Ex: If you have Cancer. Certain Massage Techniques can actually increase the spread of it)

I guess what I've been trying to say this whole time, is yes, there are crackerjack sham practicioners out there, who are just flim flam wo/men who are under the impression that a sucker is born every second, and they just want money. They don't care who they hurt.

But a good majority of Alternative Health Practicioners are good people who want whats best for you.

IF you as a client have done your homework on your practicioner. Just like you should be doing for the Medical Doctor you want to be your kids orthodonist. Then you should know about the procedure, the doctor, his practice ect.. And you should ask questions. You're not a sheep.

As for the ignorant people (who are usually so afraid of death they want to clutch at straws and find 'anyone') on death's door who finally resort to MDs. They're USUALLY the same people who were told by MDs and even thier Alternative MDs that they needed to make an appointment to see a Surgeon (or whomever) and they were too afraid to do that because they didn't want to think they could be 'that sick.' Ect..

Also many people are on deaths door who have gone from one MD to another, who's primary physicians have missed thier cancer ect.. It's not a phenomena that's only seen in the Alt. Health field.

It all boils down to being an informed consumer. And I'm awfully sorry that some people are so gullable, and have been fleeced and taken advantage of. But I can't wave an amethyst wand with magnets (that's just for you Frank I know you like your random mention of magnets ;) and make them all have common sense.

What I can do, is try to represent those fields of Alternative Healing that I've experienced, and practice with honesly and integrity.

GT: Unless you know which part of the herb to use medicinally, and in what dosage you'd be better off using the quality controled herb.

Most herbologists use items available from your local health food store, and since they are MD's they know when particular herbs are contraindicated.

You could do yourself more harm, self medicateing or administering it to your family and friends, than being sick in the first place. Always remember to inform your Medical Doctor when s/he asks what drugs are you currently taking? Not to just put down your Rx & OTC drugs but any Vitamins, Minerals or Herbs you're taking and in what doses you're currently taking them.

Ex: If you're on Rx antidepressants, you're not supposed to take the Natural Herb they use to treat clients with 'St. John's Wort' because you could have adverse reactions.

If you're taking a lot of vitamin E, you're more prone to bruising, and need to ajust the amount of Bayer, or Cumadin that you're taking to help thin your blood.

Vitamins, Minerals, Herbs, ect..should really be formulated by a good Suppliment Nutritionist Nurse or Doctor on an individuals needs. To haphazzardly medicate yourself is putting your life at risk.

Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian

In an effort to include people of all faiths: Enlightened Rohastu, Happy Hanukah, Bah Humbug, Merry Christmas, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year

-- Dorian (YaddaBlah@yahoo.com), December 18, 2004.

“Drug companies only retain the patent on the exact formula for some drugs for a certain amount of time. Once it's up, it's no longer perscription and can be sold over the counter.” ROFL! I’ve never seen someone fulminate at such length about a subject while demonstrationg she knows nothing about it. According to our medical and legal expert Dorian, since the patents on heroin, barbiturates, Valium, etc expired decades ago, they are all legally sold over the counter!

“Why do you think that liscensed Accupunturists, ect..just wake up certified? They go to school just the same as anyone else & have boards to pass to get thier liscense ect…. You need to take 3 levels of training, that have at a minimum 6 (if not more, some people retake certain levels) months in between them and then apprentice under a Reiki Master for at least a year. …They are very time and labor intensive, and you don't just sit around playing with 'glass'. You learn Ethics, Case Studies, and many MANY hours of practical experience, along with quite a bit of book work and various tests.”

And who do you think makes up the examination boards and sets the questions for tests? OTHER quacks! You could study Communism or Fascism for ten years. That wouldn’t make them good political systems. Same with bogus medical treatments.

“I just don't know how you fail to comprehend, that Alternative Healing Techniques are supposed to be used in conjunction with. Not in Lieu of proper medical treatment.” LOL! What’s the point of combining a treatment that’s proved to work with a treatment that won’t work? That’s like telling astronomers they should use astrology in conjunction with astronomy, or telling chemists they should use alchemy in conjunction with chemistry, or telling physicists they should use physics in conjunction with metaphysics.

“Jesus Christ wasn't a doctor. But he layed hands on people and healed them with prayer and well being the son of god and all. You can crack wise about alternative healing techniques, and laying on of hands all you want. (I consider Reiki to be in the Spiritual Healing laying on of hands branch personally.) But he not only healed the blind and lepers he even rose Lazarus from the dead. IHe wasn't a quack. I remember he was a carpenters son..don't think he had any framed master degrees on his wall.”

Oh no, now you’ve gone TOO far. Our Savior was not a doctor, NOR was he an “alternative practitioner”. His laying on of hands on people, His putting His spittle and mud in the blind man’s eyes, were NOT "alternative" treatments but only external SIGNS of the spiritual action (forgiving their sins). He didn’t give anyone a massage, a herb or any other nonsense treatment.

“ The physicians in that time were herbalists.” Glad to know you’ve read SOMETHING I wrote, that physicians up to the 18th century had nothing better than herbs but now medicine has advanced.

“you still have "NO PROOF" that alternative healing techniques 'do nothing'.” Oops you DIDN'T read when I told you that the onus is on the “alternative” treatment seller who claims that his product works, to prove that it does. You don’t just take what he says at face value, and then demand that others prove that it DOESN'T work when they point out how foolish your behavior is. As the saying goes, HE WHO ASSERTS MUST PROVE.

“I've seen MORE Alternative Health Professionals use a sliding pay scale, and or barder (sp?) for services. (Ex: A painter comes to you for Shiatsu Treatments, and you work on him and he paints your living room.)” Yes, they do this to stay one step ahead of the FDA and the taxman if they keep everything “off the record”. They set the price according to how gullible they think the customer is.

“I have turned clients away” So finally the truth emerges. Dorian HERSELF is a quack! So much for her lambasting the big bad capitalist doctors and legitimate pharmaceutical companies. Her only motivation here is financial. Oh dear. And I wasted my time thinking you were some poor deluded soul who would consider scientific logic when it was presented to you. Looks like no point in continuing. Have a happy Christmas, Dorian, but forgive me for NOT wishing that your business has a prosperous New Year. For the sake of your customers’ health I hope they all stop coming to you.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 18, 2004.

Dorian,

just don't know how you fail to comprehend, that Alternative Healing Techniques are supposed to be used in conjunction with. Not in Lieu of proper medical treatment.

I understand plenty. I understand that when people go to "alternative medicine" sellers they are told to try them FIRST, and then to go to a real doctor. IF I ever hear someone say their "alternative medicine" retailer told them to go to *their doctor* first and then come back if their treatment didn't work, I'll come back to this thread and apologize.

(btw, that baloney you pointed out of going to get certified in under a day as a 'Reiki' master isn't the norm. NOR is it suggested. It doesn't make you a Master period the end.

You need to take 3 levels of training, that have at a minimum 6 (if not more, some people retake certain levels) months in between them and then apprentice under a Reiki Master for at least a year. And it's not something that ever costs under 100.

It's not one person Dorian, try typing "reiki master training buy" in Google and see what you get. Dozens of people selling master reiki status for cheap, and videos to show you the "secret moves" of Reiki. If you'd pay thousands and spend years on that, well, it's your money, and if you want to part with it, it's your business.

As a test, I also tried "buy M.D.", "buy doctorate of medicine" "board-certified physician training buy", and didn't come up with any real winners. Hmmm, what's the difference between being a doctor and being a master reiki provider? Hmmmm

The well know american schools that teach it cost around (min) $400 on up each level and over a few $1000 on up to Apprentice for your Masters level.

That's higher than the internet rate by a factor of 4 to 10. You should do more comparison shopping.

You learn Ethics, Case Studies, and many MANY hours of practical experience, along with quite a bit of book work and various tests.

You do have me curious here, what ethics texts did you use? Unfortunately, I've had to see a LOT of junk science people have brought me over the years, and since It's as sure as the sun rising I'll be asked about it, I've read it. You can test people on anything, but memorizing something fictional doesn't make it true, it just makes you a practioner of fiction.

Or did you go in and fill out a medical questionare, and were you asked for your doctors referal?

This would indicate to me that I was entering a shady establishment. You've already admitted reiki providers are NOT medical practioners, and so filling in a medical questionarie is worse than not because a patient will believe that you are qualified to evaluate it, when you are NOT. Asking for a doctor's referal really is an "appeal to authority", trying to look legitimate by suggesting that someone who IS legitimate would recommend your services. It's like a guy hanging out a computer services shingle and saying, "where's your referal from Bill Gates?, we normally don't work for people without one of those."

Examples of how a ethical practicioner would use Reiki

The CORRECT answer is: "D" none of the above. You must have missed this on your final.

You don't do Reiki instead of getting the kidney stones removed by the head uroligist. Or use Reiki instead of letting the Heart Surgeon give you a new shunt

That's the problem though, people go in to reiki places with renal colic or angina and try to get cured first. Like I said, if I ever see an alternative medicine person turn someone down, I'll let you know. I'm sorry Dorian, it just doesn't make sense to say that reiki "masters" would turn people away! These are people who believe (they mostly aren't cynical scam artists, they really BELIEVE they can heal people) with just their touch and "healing energy". If you BELIEVED that, why would you send someone to get cut up when you might be able to do the same thing without any side effects? Answer: you wouldn't. I do think there are compassionate and misled people doing reiki, and the placebo effect is a powerful thing, but you aren't really doing anything other than making the patient believe they are better. If they aren't really sick, then they are cured! If they ARE really sick, you've delayed their treatment.

And if it wasn't for the Arnica (for pain, my herbologist perscribed) and Reiki (again for the pain) I couldn't have lasted until my Western MD, the head of the uroligy Dept and an all around EXCELLENT doctor could fit me in for surgery this past summer.

I also wouldn't be able to make it thru cold and flu season (usually) cold free without my knowlege and use of Aromatherapy.

And I wouldn't be able to go without another Allergy Shot in my life if it hadn't been for the NAET treatments.

Hogwash. You would have lived just fine. Try going to Bangladesh and see how the people there survive. It seems to be forgotten in affluent America, but there is a very real difference between needing something and wanting it.

Family Members, Friends, and Clients

The truth comes out. Not a user of reiki, but a PRACTIONER of it. You should look up the old threads on "Dr. Lance", try googling.

And yes there's quite a demand for healing for animals. Usually beloved household pets that need to undergo sugery, or have had surgery. Or have crippling arthritis, or other illnesses.

Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure fluffy heals much faster with reiki than without it right?

I hate to be so blunt, but Jesus Christ wasn't a doctor. But he layed hands on people and healed them with prayer and well being the son of god and all. You can crack wise about alternative healing techniques, and laying on of hands all you want. (I consider Reiki to be in the Spiritual Healing laying on of hands branch personally.) But he not only healed the blind and lepers he even rose Lazarus from the dead.

Comparing yourself to Christ is very offensive. Being the Son of God He really HEALED people both in soul and in body. You don't do either.

The physicians in that time were herbalists. They didn't have Dow Pharmecudicals to manufacture thier boneknit for them to use to help heal thier fractures. Or eucalyptus to put into thier vicks vapor rub so they could breath in the winter.

That's right, and most of their patients died of things that are now curable. Even into the middle ages 1/3 of the population died of pneumonia, doesn't happen now. The point is that medicine has progressed, whereas people who believe in junk go BACK 2000 years trying to find some lost "secret technique" that will cure them.

And you still have "NO PROOF" that alternative healing techniques 'do nothing'

PROVE to me there is not a 100000 pound gorilla in the center of the Earth eating cosmic banannas all day long. You can't, nor can you prove any negative. YOU have to prove to ME reiki DOES work -- which unfortunately you can't. OTOH, I can PROVE to you that giving antibiotics cure infections. Medicine is proven to work, reiki isn't. It's very simple, not that you are going to quit making your living at it.

And what's with your fascination with magnets?

I just think it's one of the funnier alternative medicine scams. I've seen people with magnets stuck all over them, it's sad.

I'm not even particularily certain I want to know about it. That's why I've sort of refrained from mentioning it...though I can tell you all about magnetic jewelry.

Do an internet search, there's one heck of a profit on magnets, and they work wonders! Put them between the essential oils and the crystals.

Though I've seen MORE Alternative Health Professionals use a sliding pay scale, and or barder (sp?) for services.

I bet this is true.

NEVER say they can 'cure' something, or that thier 'treatment' should be used in lieu of proper medical treatment. They also specifically say "I'm not a doctor, but this technique has worked for another client." or "Though I'm not a MD I believe you should make an appointment with yours." And last but not least, "Do you have a note from your doctor saying that s/he suggested you get "Massage" Therapy?"

Of course you'd want a doctor's note for massage, that could allow you to collect from their insurance company. And you can say you give disclaimers to people, and for liability's sake that's advisable, but you are still peddling something with no proven efficacy and charging for it. That is NOT ethical!

They have to fill out an extensive health questionare (the sort you would when you visit a new doctors office.) Because certain treatments are contraindicated. (Ex: If you have Cancer. Certain Massage Techniques can actually increase the spread of it)

What is YOUR training to evaluate the medical questionaire they fill out? Please give a couple of examples where massage has been proven to spread cancer (other than cracking some poor woman's bones who has metastatic disease), even one would be nice.

But a good majority of Alternative Health Practicioners are good people who want whats best for you.

The funny part is that I agree with this. The trouble is they don't have the training to really do something useful, but do do things that are NOT useful, because that's what they can do. So overall their clients end up the same as before, only poorer for it, and with more advanced diseas. Now again, I'm talking about SICK people. If the people you treat aren't sick to begin with, but think they are, then you can cure them by convincing them through reiki, magnets, etc. that they are better. And if you keep them from seeing real physicians because of it, I'm sure those real physicians thank you for it. Just quit treating people who really ARE sick.

Most herbologists use items available from your local health food store, and since they are MD's

Most herbalist /herbologists are NOT M.D.s. Part of the problem.

If you're taking a lot of vitamin E, you're more prone to bruising, and need to ajust the amount of Bayer, or Cumadin that you're taking to help thin your blood

My point would be if you are on coumadin, why are you self- administering large amounts of anything to yourself without asking if it's acceptable? Again, it's a case of the alternative "medicine" coming FIRST, and the useful drug being squeezed in behind it. Again, baloney.

Vitamins, Minerals, Herbs, ect..should really be formulated by a good Suppliment Nutritionist Nurse or Doctor on an individuals needs

More baloney. I'll give you some free advice. You want a vitamin? Go to your local market and get a one-a-day type vitamin with some of everything. What your body doesn't need, you'll urinate out or pass in your stool. You don't need some "special blend" to make you feel like it's working, and with the money you save over the course of a year you can take an extra course or two at the local community college to really learn something.

Steve,

LOL, now I see why Dorian thought I was you. Most insightful, old chap.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 18, 2004.

What’s the point of combining a treatment that’s proved to work with a treatment that won’t work?

actually, steve, seeing as the anti-acupuncture site you linked us to included multiple links to sites which showed unbiasedly that acupuncture does demonstrate a statistically significant performance rate, i would think that you would be more informed by now. the preponderance of evidence on the web is in favor of acupuncture, while a few dissenting sources with, apparently, no unbiased studies to go off of, voice dissent from the mainstream medical journals and whatnot. if the onus of proof is on us, then thank you, steve, for including a site which points to three studies showing proof of its function. although, if you refuse to read both sides of the issue, even when your cracked source points you to them, then its not discussing with you.

or telling chemists they should use alchemy in conjunction with chemistry,

alchemy was the practice of attempting to find ways to turn base metals into gold. strangely enough the common base metal attempted was lead... chosen because it was soft like gold. although it was chosen for the wrong reasons (just like meridians) there IS a good reason that lead is used in current "alchemical" processes. lead happens to be one proton/electron short of actually being gold. yes, thats right, today we CAN turn lead into gold. in fact, today we CAN turn a jumble of protons, nuetrons, and electrons into about anything we want... the problem being that to create gold from something else is INCREDIBLY expensive. regardless, the central aim of alchemy has been acheived, why continue researching it?

or telling physicists they should use physics in conjunction with metaphysics.

well, this physics major, for one, completely believes that the two should be used in conjunction. metaphysics is an integral part of understanding the nature of existance beyond the physical realm, if we do not recognize the field of metaphysics, we can never move beyond what we already mathematically know to proving new theories about the nature of our being. I joke about it often, but in my philosophy of religion course, a metaphysics class, i used as much conceptual physics as i did for electromagnatism. though judging from the "quackery" you have spouted without any qualification whatsoever thus far, i dont suppose that making unqualified statements about the field of physics is that long of a jump.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 18, 2004.

a recurring theme i see here is that there is an objection to the belief that "alternative medical practitioners" are not M.D.'s. actually, this is not always true. okay, so i'm unfamiliar with reiki or whatever those healing crystal things are, and i'm not willing to do any research at this time, but ultimately i am very familiar with acupuncture. Dr. Feng, for example, went to collegiate level schooling for 16 years. steve keeps refering to him as "dr" in some measure of trying to disqualify him based on liscensing, but when a man is liscensed and a doctorate of both forms of medicine, that type of arguement doesnt hold water. ultimately, acupuncture requires official liscense to practice. if you find someone who has not graduated from an officially sanction school and is liscensed by the government to practice acupuncture, then they should be turned in because they are in violation of the law.

second, i dont know about health food herbs, but likewise it is illegal for an unqualified and unliscensed person to prescribe the types of herbs used in teas that are often used in conjunction with acupuncture. again, any practice of selling prescription level herbs without qualification should be reported as it is an illegal practice.

the point that frank and steve seem to be missing is that the practice of CERTAIN KINDS of alternative medicine are GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED, STATISTICALLY PROVEN, courses which do involve required education and legal certification to practice.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 18, 2004.

paul,

lead happens to be one proton/electron short of actually being gold. yes, thats right, today we CAN turn lead into gold. in fact, today we CAN turn a jumble of protons, nuetrons, and electrons into about anything we want... the problem being that to create gold from something else is INCREDIBLY expensive. regardless, the central aim of alchemy has been acheived,

Give me a break. the GOAL of alchemy was to turn a cheap, common material in to one that was worth a lot of money without any effort. This goal has NOT been obtained. Yes, we do change elements into each other in some capacities all the time, for example to make cobalt or technicium (used every day) but your "CAN turn a jumble of protons, nuetrons, and electrons into about anything we want" is baloney. Go down to your local reactor and turn a glass of water into an equal amount of Gold. -- didn't think you could. Hey, we can ALSO make antimatter, but that doesn't mean we are all flying around on the starship Enterprise. Alchemy successful - sheesh.

ultimately, acupuncture requires official liscense to practice. if you find someone who has not graduated from an officially sanction school and is liscensed by the government to practice acupuncture, then they should be turned in because they are in violation of the law.

Accupunture is a bit different than reiki, more like massage. It has been shown to do something, although why isn't clear. There's also a reason the government would license its practioners, the same reason the government licenses tattoo parlors -- the needles that are poked into people can cause HIV or hepatitis, and people get infections from bad technique. Accupuncture is licensed because it can also cause people HARM.

the point that frank and steve seem to be missing is that the practice of CERTAIN KINDS of alternative medicine are GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED, STATISTICALLY PROVEN

You know, there have been studies showing accupunture to be effective, especially in pain. Unfortunately, sham accupunture (putting the needles anyplace) was also found to be more effective than a placebo, making one wonder where the effect is coming from. But if that's what you want to spend your money on, it's fine with me. Also, you should actually read some of the studies you are claiming support it, many of them only have 8 or 15 people in them, not the best evidence in the world.

Frank

-- Someone (chimingIn@twocents.cam), December 18, 2004.

Yes, Frank, they say great minds think alike. I have always been impressed by your intelligent and charitable oposts and wish we could see more of them.

“if the onus of proof is on us” (paul h) "on US"? Don’t tell me YOU’ve got a quack business too?

“the preponderance of evidence on the web is in favor of acupuncture” Yes, by sheer numbers there are only a few sites (all of them government and non-profit organizations) warning against acupuncture,and heaps of sites CLAMING acupuncture works. NONE of the latter provide scientific proof of efficacy.

“sites which showed unbiasedly that acupuncture does demonstrate a statistically significant performance rate…. thank you, steve, for including a site which points to three studies showing proof of its function.” No, as I said you are asking only for a lower standard of “proof” just because these people label their product “alternative”. As I also said, at best there are a few very deeply flawed studies suggesting acupuncture MIGHT POSSIBLY work in very restricted circunmstances. It is nonsense to extrapolate from these to your claim that acupuncture is "proved to work".

“ you refuse to read both sides of the issue” Oh no, we’re back to the “We assert it and you must DISprove it” nonsense.

“lead happens to be one proton/electron short of actually being gold”

ROFL! Did you ever actually open the cover of your high school science book? Where you find “the periodic table of the elements”? Take a look, it’s plain as day. Lead has three MORE protons, three MORE electrons, and seven more neutrons than gold (speaking of the most common isotopes of each, to make it simple for you). Where DO you get this tosh?

“the "quackery" you have spouted” What? I haven’t tried to sell you anything. All I’ve done is warn you about OTHER people ripping you off. For some reason you not only resent me trying to help you avoid wasting your money, but accuse ME of wanting your money!

“the practice of CERTAIN KINDS of alternative medicine are GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED”. Tobacco, alcohol and gambling are government sanctioned too, pauly boy. That’s doesn’t mean they can’t do any harm. The EDUCATION departments of governments approve courses of “alternative” medicine SET UP BY THE “ALTERNATIVE” INDUSTRY itself. That does NOT by any measure mean the government approves it or says that it’s good for your health. The government approves degree courses in Catholic theology (and probably Wiccan theology too for all everything or ANYTHING which those courses teach.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 19, 2004.

oops,last bit should read: The government approves degree courses in Catholic theology (and probably Wiccan theology too for all I know). That does NOT mean that the government endorses ANYTHING which those courses teach.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 19, 2004.

Frank & Steve, You say the truth emerges as though I was misleading you.

You're not my client, so I don't need to give you my schooling. But for the sake of this thread, the fact is you're still gripeing about quacks. And not real liscensed by your state thearaputic practicioners.

So no, you've pointed out quacks who by default are liars, and nothing they do will work. Except by placebo if thier unfortunate clients are lucky.

You still have yet to point out one legitimate on the up and up practicioner who's failed to come thru.

The ones I'm talking about are real physical therapists that took A&P, Pathology, Ethics and a Hippocratic Oath, just like any other Western College or University goer would who wants to work in the Health Field. Not some schemp that's tooling around in thier underpants trying to play D&D alchemist for kicks.

And yes, I can actually understand real medical questions, and don't have a business big enough to accept payment from other people's insurance yet. But I do carry my own because everyone is sue crazy now.

I require, and all of my former classmates require doctors referals, if the client has any. And have our clients fill out real medical questionares. Because as Massage Therapists, we need to know exactly why the client is comeing to us.

Carpel Tunnel Syndrome, Relaxation/Stress Reduction, Circulation, Post Stroke, Cancer or AIDS patient. ect..

And no I don't set a price according to how 'gullible' my client is. If you are, or your family and friends are being fleeced by a sham, shame on you for not caring enough to make sure they find a liscensed myomassologist that works out of a reputable Doctors Office.

And Steve, your wrong I haven't lambasted every doctor of pharmecudical company. I just happen to think it's wrong how some of the Doctors have lost touch with thier patients needs and are only fixated on the dollar. And how many pharmecudical companies aren't trying harder to find cures for cancer, but they're making and pushing Viagra. And they aren't doing anything to help medications more affordable to thier customers that really don't have enough money.

I don't make all the money you and Frank seem to think I make. I do most of my work pro-bono and only make the client purchase thier own products (which they don't buy from me, and not from someone I have a deal set up with). I only work on a few people that I'd consider 'healthy' to start with.

I usually work on Seniors, and people going thru Hospice. So yes, I'm actually giving comofort to people in thier last stages. I don't see myself 'curing' anything. Nor do I proport to. I just know that people on very large doses of pain meds that have moaned non stop until I work on them are finally peaceful, and even tranquil for the entire time I sit with them, doing Reiki, or Shiatsu.

And all of the people are happy to come to me because I don't bs them about thier ailments, or offer them fanciful cures or try to flim flam them in any way shape or form.

It's sad that you know people that have gone to Alt. Quacks and not gotten better. But I haven't really experienced that many ignorant people. They usually go to Alt. Therapists when traditional doctors haven't been able to figure out what's ailing them.

I don't need to find another Reiki Master. Nor do I care the dis- information out there. You also fail to realize if the persons a sham in the first place, they didn't take anything at all. They just photocopied, doctored, or made up thier own false documents.

You should also be ashamed of yourself for advertizing quacks Frank.

Some of the ethics we were taught, just like any doctor would learn are Client Therapist Confidentiality, Commitment to Professional competance, which means having a commitment to scientific knowlege about our field and improving access to care, Honesty with patients & providing them with quality care, and making sure that there are never any unnecessary services, maintaining an appropriate relationship with our clients & maintaining trust by managing any conflicts of personal interest. And networking with other practicioners. So if I don't feel I'm the best for my client, I can suggest another practicioner to her or him. And I have the responsibility if I notice something that I feel the client hasn't to bring it to her/his attention, and because I'm NOT a medical doctor to suggest they make an appointment with thier family doctor. And most of all not misrepresenting ourselves.

No. Being asked if you have a doctors referal is important. It doesn't mean your shady. If you go someplace and they don't care what your family doctor that's seen you your entire life and knows you inside and out thinks is good for you, and they say they suddenly are an expert on you. THAT'S Shadey!

I turned down the person who thought I could cure thier cancer, because they didn't want to take chemotherapy. I never said I could cure them either.

I don't care about Dr. Lance thanks though. And I was a user of Reiki far before I was a practicioner of Reiki. And I still have no interest learning about magnets.

And you compared me to Jesus Christ. And no I don't think it's offensive. We should all aspire to be like him, and the other holy men and women of the Church.

I can also prove that antibotics have absolutely no effect on some people and can kill others. That doesn't mean they're failsafe and always work.

Massage Therapy is proven to work. It's part of many people's Rehab. So there is nothing unethical going on. (in my case).

Again, you have no business going to a Herbologist, (anyone who'd going to give you a perscription) who isn't an MD and doesn't know your case history. It doesn't mean that it doesn't work and couldn't help you if you saw that Herbologist ect w/ an MD.

Last but not least, Nutritionist MDs. do formulate specialty vitamins that contain exactly what you need and in the doses you need them. (CustomVite is the pharmacudical company that puts the vitamins out and only dispenses them to the patient working from the Real MD's personalized Rx). Sure you could take a one a day and not get enough ex: Iron if your breast feeding, or Calicium if your a Senior Citizen and need more to combat weak bones, , or too much vit D or whatever. and hope you were able to expell all the excess your body was unable to utilize. But personally I'd rather get exactly what a woman my age, wt. ect.. and for my uncle to get what he needs for a guy in his later years ect.. needs for a healthy functioning body.

I don't want to talk about this anymore, you both have only read sites, you refuse to actually go to an liscensed person of any local Alternative Healing Practice and ask that practicioner any questions, or open up a debate, or actually see them for therapy for yourselvs.

And it seems you're both in the "I have to see/experience" to realy believe it mind sets.

Intesting points Paul.

You fellas have really only talked in circles, and not make much sense because you seem to be fixated on quacks and sham artists which are prevalent in any healing profession (heck, any field period).

You're not even interested in any real Doctors that practice alt. fields of medicine. So I don't have anything further to say on this subject. Other than don't be so fast to discredit something you've only ever 'read' about and never experienced.

Haven't you ever learned not to believe everything you read? & yes I say that even though you obviously choose to disbelieve all the pro Alt. Healing Therapies we've just talked about. But I find it sad that you're both so quick to believe whole heartedly any sites that say it's all baloney. Oh well.

No more about this topic for me. Have something new to talk about? Not as full of distrust and uninformed fear?

Sidenote: Sorry for rampant typos..very tired, and on Rx from reg. Western MD pain meds for back pain injury. Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian

Enlightened Rohastu, Happy Hanukah, Bah Humbug, Merry Christmas, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year!!!

-- Dorian (TiredOfBrokenRecord@yahoo.com), December 19, 2004.

Modern medicine is quite important in major emergencies of life, but when it comes to true chronic diseases like asthma, arthritis, etc. It has no cure, just palliative medicines, which itself on the long run poison the system and cause other major diseases, hence even called allopathy or "other kind of suffering."

Alternative medicines help in alleviating and curing many chronic diseases without poisoning the system, though you need real good practitioner, who now days are rare. True, there are many other unreliable people take advantage and cause scandal by quackery because of the very nature that everything cannot be rationally proved and tested in laboratory.

What should be important is ability to provide cure and give good relief to the patient with minumum side effects. It does not matter whether it cannot be scientifically observed or not. The patient's relief is important. God blesses all sincere practitioners of medicine who holds a sympathic heart

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), December 19, 2004.

Dorian,

That was a good post, in that you came across as sincere.

My problem is not with your sincerity though, it's whether or not you are helping people with reiki, etc. Just a couple of points as you are checking out:

And yes, I can actually understand real medical questions, and don't have a business big enough to accept payment from other people's insurance yet.

If you are offering legitimate medical treatment, you don't need to be any SIZE of business to collect from insurance companies, some doctors now are practicing truly solo -- no staff at all other than themselves, and taking all their own calls, doing their own nursing, etc. (kind of a hippie thing, IMO, but they are happy at it). My point is you don't need any SIZE to collect, you just need to be performing a medically indicated service. If you are, you should be getting paid by the insurance company, and not making your clients pay cash -- that's why they bought the insurance policy to start out with, to pay for their medical bills.

You should be very careful saying you can interpret a medical questionaire. If you are not a health provider, you are practicing medicine without a licence, and I doubt if even your insurance company will protect you from that.

. I just happen to think it's wrong how some of the Doctors have lost touch with thier patients needs and are only fixated on the dollar. And how many pharmecudical companies aren't trying harder to find cures for cancer, but they're making and pushing Viagra. And they aren't doing anything to help medications more affordable to thier customers that really don't have enough money.

I think it's wrong that people push alternative therapies that aren't proven to work. I do agree that any MD who is "fixated on the dollar" has lost their way, although at the same time realize that their secretary and nurse aren't going to keep working if they don't get their paycheck, the electric company and water aren't going to keep flowing without the bills being paid, their malpractice insurance which depending on the specialty can be between 20,ooo to over 100,000 dollars per year doesn't pay itself, and without paying their rent or mortgage, they won't be practicing very long. It's nice to not be "fixated" on the dollar, but unless one is independently wealthy and can pay to treat people for free from their own pocket or from that of other donors, it's unrealistic to assume anyone can practice medicine without collecting from someone, even if that someone is the government. Similarly, the drug companies pay MILLIONS to get each useful drug to market, and invest many millions more on drugs that for one reason or another don't pan out. Where can they recover these costs from? They can't just raise taxes and soak money out of the citizens, they must make enough on each successful product to pay for the research of those that were NOT successful, as well as to do future research. If Viagra is a big seller, what's that to you? The profits from that go back into the company to research other drugs. No one is forcing you to take medication, if you have some terrible infection, and would rather die than pay 50$ for an antibiotic, that's your choice to make. Some drugs are VERY expensive, and cost much more. Some are downright unaffordable. Most of these companies that I know of have some kind of indigent plan, and as always there are always people who fall through the cracks, but believe it or not, there are very few people who at the end of the day don't get what they need through one program or another, at least where I'm at. Do people have to jump through hoops, or sometimes get second-line drugs rather than top-shelf ones (both of which work though)? Yes.

And it sure beats Denmark where if you are young or old your doctor can decide your life isn't worth living and kill you, or NOT having drugs that work and having only a reiki "master" follow you to the graveyard.

I don't make all the money you and Frank seem to think I make.

I never said I thought you were driving a Rolls-Royce around, most fortune tellers aren't *rich* either, which is kind of odd since they can predict the future ;-) .

I usually work on Seniors, and people going thru Hospice. So yes, I'm actually giving comofort to people in thier last stages.

That's very good. If you provide comfort to those that need it, there's nothing wrong with that.

You should also be ashamed of yourself for advertizing quacks Frank.

That's the trouble with reiki, who determines who is a "quack" for something that hasn't been shown to do *anything*? The person you call a quack can turn around and be just as justified in calling YOU a quack, and who is to say she is any more correct or incorrect than you? Have you read the link? She does make some pretty good points half-way down or so. If someone dresses up a fraud in a nice building with lots of classes and certificates, it's still a fraud.

No. Being asked if you have a doctors referal is important.

How many doctors refer people to you for reiki? Not massage, reiki.

And you compared me to Jesus Christ. And no I don't think it's offensive. We should all aspire to be like him, and the other holy men and women of the Church.

No, I did NOT compare you to Christ, IMO you did. I do think that's offensive in that you are comparing reiki healing with Christ's healing. Not even Dr. Lance did that, and if you are a Catholic, I find it both shocking and offensive. I, however, agree with the second part which is we should aspire to be like Christ and the saints.

I can also prove that antibotics have absolutely no effect on some people and can kill others. That doesn't mean they're failsafe and always work.

I never claimed they ALWAYS worked, only that they were proven to WORK period. Reiki on the other hand has NOT been proven to work on anyone.

Massage Therapy is proven to work. It's part of many people's Rehab. So there is nothing unethical going on.

I'm not arguing about this, massage has been shown to increase blood flow and relax people. It however really is complementary medicine, and not *alternative* medicine.

Sure you could take a one a day and not get enough ex: Iron if your breast feeding, or Calicium if your a Senior Citizen and need more to combat weak bones, , or too much vit D or whatever. and hope you were able to expell all the excess your body was unable to utilize. But personally I'd rather get exactly what a woman my age, wt. ect.. and for my uncle to get what he needs for a guy in his later years ect.. needs for a healthy functioning body.

This again show a general misconception about how the body works. If you were REALLY into holistic health, you'd realize you don't need ANY vitamins if you just ate the proper diet for your age and sex. Vitamins are SUPPLEMENTS for people who DON'T eat properly. If someone has convinced you you need a special vitamin package, they have sorely misled you.

and hope you were able to expell all the excess your body was unable to utilize.

This part is the worst part. Don't you realize that there are vitamins and minerals in your normal food too? If you take 100% of your vitamins (or many people take much more) in a vitamin tablet, then you are really having to excrete vitamins every day. With a few exceptions your body doesn't store huge amounts of these, and unless you aren't eating ANYTHING other than your vitamin pill, you can't help but excrete the excess, regardless of whether it's a cheap multivitamin or a 100$ special brew, the final resting place for most of it is the same -- the toilet. If you show up to your pharmacist every week with your meal plan for them to calculate what your nutrient intake is going to be to plan out a daily supplement regimen, you need to get a better hobby.

Other than don't be so fast to discredit something you've only ever 'read' about and never experienced.

Don't be so quick to try things that are generally accepted to be worthless. The devil is very clever, don't let him convince you there is some secret power you can tap into and get something for nothing. Alchemy didn't work, but science through hard work usually does. Reiki doesn't work, but medicine through hard work generally does. With a few notable exceptions like God's grace and its human counterparts (if I didn't add "love" I'd probably hear about it, LOL) you don't get something for nothing.

Haven't you ever learned not to believe everything you read?

Haven't you ever learned not to believe everything you read from alternative health providers? For myself, I've learned that much of what I read is false, or a small truth in with a lot of junk. Reiki is junk.

No more about this topic for me. Have something new to talk about? Not as full of distrust and uninformed fear?

Sorry, but I feel I have an obligation not to let people pass off bogus "therapies" as real ones, and if my tone is bad, which I'm sure it is, it's that I've had this conversation before. Not from distrust or fear though, but from the absence of data showing any efficacy and irritation with people taking advantage of the sick and desperate.

Western MD pain meds for back pain injury

Skip them and just go with reiki then, or better yet, put a whopping magnet over your spine.

Leslie John,

Modern medicine is quite important in major emergencies of life, but when it comes to true chronic diseases like asthma, arthritis, etc. It has no cure, just palliative medicines

This is true enough.

Alternative medicines help in alleviating and curing many chronic diseases without poisoning the system

Which diseases are cured with alternative medicines that no conventional medicines do? I think I missed that one, what alternative therapies are curing advanced arthritis, COPD, CHF, etc.

It does not matter whether it cannot be scientifically observed or not.

Yes it does! There are only so many health care dollars to be spent, and as a country we are already deep in the hole, in case you haven't been reading up on medicare. Therefore there's nothing MORE important than treating people with the most effective things and NOT treating them with things that do NOT work. That's why they do studies on things, all kinds of things, to see how we can get the most for what we spend. How can you recommend just going by whatever the practioner personally likes, and not by what's most effective? Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 19, 2004.

“you're still gripeing about quacks. And not real liscensed by your state thearaputic practicioners.” Dorian, did you actually read what Frank and I said above? Whether they are licensed or not, if they are pushing (“quacking”) purported remedies which do not work, they are quacks.

“you refuse to actually go to an liscensed person of any local Alternative Healing Practice and ask that practicioner any questions, or open up a debate, or actually see them for therapy for yourselvs.”

Life’s too short to waste my time personally experiencing the thousands of different “alternative” medical treatments. That’s why we have the FDA, proper medical schools and health departments. So we can tell the proper doctors from the quacks. If they didn’t exist, a sick person would just have to blindly pick anyone claiming to be a “healer” of some kind and hope they could help him. Incredibly, you want us to ACT as though they didn’t exist.

“And it seems you're both in the "I have to see/experience" to realy believe it mind sets.” Hmm the exact opposite to your previous accusation. I think you’ve reached the desperate "throw anything you can think of at them" stage, you've realized that logically you don’t have a leg to stand on.

“Alternative medicines help in alleviating and curing many chronic diseases without poisoning the system” That’s a CLAIM, Leslie. Got any proof for it? No of course not.

“It does not matter whether it cannot be scientifically observed or not. The patient's relief is important.” If it’s not scientifically proved to work, the patient WON'T get any relief from it. Sheesh, how many times do I have to say this before it sinks in?

“ God blesses all sincere practitioners of medicine” Sincerity is not enough Les. I’m sure the Al-quaida bombers are quite “sincere” about their work. That doesn’t mean God blesses it.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 19, 2004.

So, i read steve's post, about how its still on me to make some measure of proof in the accupuncture arena, since steve has so obviously provided great sources which, as he says, are government and medical journal sponsored... so i look online and find:

The national institutes of health, a government agency, web page which states that research in acupuncture shows positive results... http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/

The california governments board of accupuncture web page... http://www.acupuncture.ca.gov/

the national Library of Medicine's web page with countless links to studies of acupuncture, not really for or against... http://www.nlm.nih.gov/pubs/cbm/acupuncture.html#250

the government document on practice of accupuncture... http://www.cms.hhs.gov/coverage/download/id84.pdf

so now i have four government sources which do not condemn acupuncture (as steve said they do), not to mention the fact that the BMJ (brittish medical journal) and the JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association), which have both been quoted, note that the use of acupuncture has produced statistically significant results. and i look back up the page, and the only source i see steve quoting is a one man sideshow run out of the poor sod's basement. so steve, the onus of us to show that acupuncture works has been met, while you have yet to produce ONE single valid source of counter information... a sham NCAHF and quacked doctor's opinion dont count steve, how about a real journal or a real government source...

but now we come back to the point, steve's claim that government sources and medical journals by and large reject acupuncture while MANY fringe groups support it... only we already saw above that this is not the case, so either steve can't read (thats okay, i messed up Pt and Pb on the periodic chart), chooses to remain ignorant, or is deliberately lying because he THINKS what he said is true and chooses not to verify. PROOF steve, i call for PROOF.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 20, 2004.

OK I’m repeating this only for paul’s benefit, as the rest of you reading this are probably bored with me saying it by now, but none of the “sources” you mention have any proof that acupuncture works, only at best that it might (or might not) have worked in a few selected very limited and flawed studies.

I said governments don’t endorse it. That’s not the same thing as saying that all government sources unequivocally condemn it every time they mention it.

The site you repeatedly refer back to is not “quacking” anything as you allege. (Show me any quote from that massive site which tries to sell anything and I will humbly apologize. )

Have a merry Christmas everyone. Sorry if some of my forthright statements were a bit insensitive towards some people's deeply held (if irrational) feelings, but I just can’t stand to see the truth hijacked and distorted by people with an agenda to push, especially when it bears on our Faith.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 20, 2004.

The things that you are discussing I know not, but I do know about these;

Colloidal Silver- Try it for early onset of a cold and other infections; Research it on google.

Dr. Lorraine Day website for proper eating.

George Malkmus for lots of things.

-- Nature boy (Natural remedies@hope.com), December 20, 2004.

Colloidal Silver!

It's been a year or three since I've heard about that. Another do-nothing cure-all.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 21, 2004.

OK; you just buy another box of tissues, and I will continue not having a cold for the past 3 years.

-- Nature boy (Natural remedies@hope.com),), December 21, 2004.

Na-true boy,

You know what works even better? Eating ice cream. I haven't had cancer in a lifetime, and it's because I eat ice cream every chance I get. Tell all your friends, and don't let them get cheap ice cream, it only works with good ice cream.

After all, what's more important, preventing a cold or preventing cancer? Eat all the ice cream you can! If you don't believe it, a case history can be found at this link

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 21, 2004.

Someone said: Which diseases are cured with alternative medicines that no conventional medicines do? I think I missed that one, what alternative therapies are curing advanced arthritis, COPD, CHF, etc.

True. This is the natural outcome all chronic illnesses because of just trying palliate rather than cure. It is difficult even with many alternative remedies at this stage because irreversible pathologic changes have already set in the organs in the cellular level, and the body is loaded with multiple toxic medications, immunity is very low, and a low ebb of vital energies necessary to respond to dynamic drugs, hence is an uphill task for any medical discipline Even then, there are many incidents I know from innumerable reliable sources like advanced rabies, paralysis, various immunocompromised illness, chronic stomach, lung conditions, and many cases of tumors, piles, and warts, etc, being cured, and also we have Paul's uncle's case as cited above, which surely looks like a advanced case of COPD or even worse.

Yes it does! There are only so many health care dollars to be spent, and as a country we are already deep in the hole, in case you haven't been reading up on medicare.

Yeah, I know, even for simple problems, the patient may be subject so many costly laboratory tests, cultures investigation, CAT scans, PET scans, angiographies, endoscopies, costly empirical medical trials, etc, etc. In the former times a patient underwent just 90% clinical examination and just 10% investigations (if necessary). Nowadays, it is vise-versa, 90% investigations and 10% clinical examination. Doctors have become too much dependent on machines and less on their powers of observation and analytical skills, unlike a good practitioner. I guess it must be the modern education and abnormal fascination for modern technology and also lure of less intellectual labor, making up for poor analytic skills, saving time, fear of too much responsibility, etc.

Therefore there's nothing MORE important than treating people with the most effective things and NOT treating them with things that do NOT work. That's why they do studies on things, all kinds of things, to see how we can get the most for what we spend.

The studies should also involve all medical disciplines and their claims and also examine the unorthodox approaches to person as just not an intellectual biological animal, but also as having a soul, mind, and body. Processes in any of the realms can either help or block the healing process.

If a person is healed and able to get back to health and he feels okay, the treatment is effective. I agree with you, treating with real effective things that work and just not just palliation while destructive process continually destroying every vital organ and tissues, until it is safe enough to execute do-not-resuscitate code.

How can you recommend just going by whatever the practioner personally likes, and not by what's most effective?

You say this, not I. Every true practitioner (does not matter which discipline) will be real effective when filled with sympathy, lifts his eyes to his Creator to obtain grace to help a sick fellow human being standing before him, and God will bless him as he works upon him with all his knowledge and skills he has.

Steve said: "Alternative medicines help in alleviating and curing many chronic diseases without poisoning the system" That's a CLAIM, Leslie. Got any proof for it? No of course not.

Plenty, even I myself have experienced it and was even effective in others whom I had recommended

"It does not matter whether it cannot be scientifically observed or not. The patient's relief is important." If it's not scientifically proved to work, the patient WON'T get any relief from it. Sheesh, how many times do I have to say this before it sinks in?

Healing is more a subjective experience than a objective scientific proof. If the person feels okay and gets back to activities of daily living, then he is okay. Science can't say much after that.

" God blesses all sincere practitioners of medicine" Sincerity is not enough Les. I'm sure the Al-quaida bombers are quite "sincere" about their work. That doesn't mean God blesses it.

If you and I can differentiate between the two, then is God a fool?

Steve, even the greatest scientists are humble enough to say that they don't know everything and there that are always strange phenomenon. There are uncovered mysteries, levels, planes, and powers that we just cannot perceive even with our present technology. There higher dimensions, which are just speculated about. Everything cannot be scientifically observed and analyzed. I am sure at least you agree with that. Our powers of perception are just limited to our 5 senses only. We do not know everything, I, you, and even the greatest scientists.

Scientists are not God, but men whom God found fit to reveal just a little mystery of His creation, just a minuscule at a time. Even a revelation so little has made some so proud that they feel know everything, explain everything, and do everything without the need of God. You are too sure of things that you do not know or understand fully. How many years have you been living in this earth? How many things have you seen and experienced? Instead, you hold on to a closed view have and got stuck with it. I guess your situation is that of a religious fanatic who has already fixed in his mind, "it can never be." Only that yours is much worse condition of that of a blind rationalist.

Always be open to the possibility that there can be things and happenings beyond our scrutiny and even beyond what science can understand today. I do not recommend blind a belief, but a humble desire to know more about things that we are not yet sure about or not yet brought into light by our present standards, without any bias. Even when Paul quoted governmental sources that are positive and there are even scientists who are yet working on understanding, you remain shockingly conclusive without any basis. Your aversion to even consider there could be a grain of truth in such things shows that you are afraid of truth dismantling your long-held pet idealogies or beliefs. All our present knowledge of things is quite far away from any perfection. Therefore, pause a little before you feel so absolutely absolute.

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), December 23, 2004.

-- (italics@off.com), December 23, 2004.

I think God gives us the power to help ourselves through creative visualization and self- hypnosis. One of my favorite books on this is "Love, Medicine, and Miracles", by Dr. Bernie Siegel.

I also feel that you start with least invasive, if you can, then go to more invasive. No one in their right mind wants to go through surgery or take medicines with bad side effects if changing your diet (albeit drastically) will fix the problem.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 23, 2004.

The problem is that some sick people desperately try every novel alternative to surgery that they read about, thereby wasting valuable time, and finally when all else has (predictably) failed they contact a surgeon, only to find out that their disease is now too far advanced for surgery, when it would have been curable if they hadn't wasted a year pursuing ineffective dietary "treatments" or other wacko approaches.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 23, 2004.

Leslie, however much you may WISH it were so, the subjective experience of you and some selected acquaintances is not proof. And yes scientific proof IS necessary, and IS always obtainable if the treatment actually works. This is not a matter of me having a closed mind. In fact the very essence of the scientific outlook is that one must always have an OPEN mind. That does NOT mean we should accept every claim made for a product until it is proven definitely useless, especially when all scientific knowledge suggests that it has no logical basis. I repeat for I think about the 6th time now, the studies you refer to do NOT claim to prove that acupuncture works. Why don't you actually read them?

GT, except for obesity and diabetes, there are VERY VERY few diseases in the Western world which can be “cured” by dietary changes. Most diseases are caused by infections or cancers, and dietary changes, even radical ones (and especially taking unnecessary “supplements”) make NO difference, but only delay effective treatment.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 23, 2004.

Steve..what about THIS "Lesley" please, and the proven scientific medical journals which I posted days ago which have studies in them showing that acupuncture does indeed work..why don't YOU read THEM?

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 23, 2004.

Lesley, they just don't care about the real journals and proof that there is.

Case in point for thier so called all knowing only Western Practicing MDs. It was suggested that I take Aleve for a problem..and lo and behold wasn't it just yanked from the market or strongly suggested for people not to use it because it's been scientifically proven to give people heart attacks?

When asked the Herbalist MD said that I should switch to a different med. White Willow Bark. Funny it's been around since forever..it's not been yanked off the marked because it's suddenly giving people tons of heart attacks.

Now that I think of it, wasn't that drug Wellbutrin (along with others for depression was it?) recently giving people loads of scares because it seemed to be aggrevating thier suicidal urges?

Don't hear about that sort of problem with people on the Amino Acids, St. Johns Wort & Valerian (iffy on that last herb). As a matter of fact Carrie Fisher's been on that Amino Acid Therapy under her MDs care, and it's been on of the only things helping her put her life back in order.

(okay, so I'm a huge Star Wars buff..but still I remember her talking about that in her interview a bit back)

And this is an old nit pick, but hit me as particulary funny and I wanted to point out (not to bicker, just because it struck me humorously) but really Steve, you said Pagan Kung fu Master a while back..you do realize that even Catholics know Martial Arts now a days right? The ancient Asian Masters have brought their arts out of the Orient to the West. lol

Anyway, Hope everyone has a blessed Christmas with thier family and friends & a healthy, wonderful New Year!

Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian

In an Effort to include people of all faiths: Enlightened Rohastu, Happy Hanukah, Bah Humbug, MERRY CHRSTIMAS, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year!!!

-- Dorian (MerryXmas@yahoo.com), December 24, 2004.

OK, for the 7th time then, Lesley, the same applies to your articles as apply to the other Leslie’s. They do not prove that acupuncture “works”, only if anything that it may be possibly of benefit in some particular cases under certain conditions, but any placebo treatment would almost certainly be equally effective.

Dorian I’m well aware there are Catholic kung fu fighters, I know a couple of them. I was referring to the fact that the theory and practise of kung fu has its basis in pagan religion/philosophy. If you don’t know this you don’t know much about kung fu.

I’m not going to respond further on this thread unless anyone makes any NEW points, as several of you just keep rehashing silly notions which Frank and I have voluminously refuted above.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 25, 2004.

Steve..thank you for replying. Personally, I prefer to concede that the learned physicians of the entire British Health system know a tad more than I do..I'll also concede that the MD researchers at NIH know more than I do..however, I can understand where some folks would not share this point of view.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 25, 2004.

Lesley,

I read your JAMA article on acupuncture, and in case anyone else is interested in actually READING it, it can be found here: Link

It has some real problems, the big ones are as follows:

1. The anti-emetic regimen they used was substandard! They used a combination of prochlorperazine, lorazepam, and diphenhydramine, which are respectively a second-line antiemetic, an antianxiety agent with antiemetic properties, and an antihistamine (compazine, ativan and benadryl. Every med onc I know uses either Zofran or Kytril as their antiemetic for chemotherapy, as these were designed for chemotherapy patients because compazine, etc. were not very effective. For example, their "control" group had 15 patients with emesis for 30 patients with breast cancer, that's half! I've never heard of a rate so bad. With today's proper medicines, there is less emesis than even their acupuncture arm.

2. and 3. Poor blinding technique, and patients' awareness of treatment. The patients were put on one of three arms, electro acupuncture where the needles were inserted, twirled, and current passed, sham acupuncture where the needles were placed, and the electrical apparatus attached *but not turned on*, and drugs only. In something I find offensive, the study authors state that the patients did NOT know which arm they were assigned to, but the p value for this statement was .11. A p value of less than .05 would be necessary to say this was truly significant, with a p value of .11, the results are assumed to have occurred by *chance*, so there is NO basis for saying that the patients did not know what treatment they received.

If you have ever seen a medical study consent, you would know that *everything* done has to be addressed (many consents for studies are over 20 pages long), and I find it impossible to believe someone could actually read their consent and not know what arm they were on. This means the placebo effect would be *strongly* in favor of the "real" acupuncture, as people knew they were getting it - or not.

4. Unblinded investigators: It is well known that investigators *without meaning to* can bias the results of studies based on knowing what arm a patient is assigned to. Since this study had the same investigators doing both the electroaccupuncture and sham acupuncture, they MUST have been unblinded so as to know which treatment to deliver. This bias can't be overlooked, and invesitigator bias has been accountable for more than one falsely positive study, let me assure you.

5. Effectiveness of false acupuncture: In the study, in the acupuncture arm, the investigators who were delivering the acupuncture waited until they had achieved a "de Qi" sensation before delivering the electricity, whereas in the false acupuncture arm, the investigators specifically would NOT attain a "de Qi" sensation, not to mention not applying the electrical current, and yet the arm that was not supposed to do anything still decreased emesis from ~50% down to 30%! The fact that something that worked that wasn't supposed to do anything should raise troubling issues as to what was occurring, but this paper does not address that. My guess would be that people believed they weren't as nauseous, and so weren't. The authors don't state what they believe.

O.k. Lesley, that's it for now. Again, if you want to spend your money having some guy poke needles in you, go ahead. If, God forbid, I need chemotherapy I'll take the Zofran which has REALLY been proven to work.

sigh..I gave two references awhile back in this thread .. TWO reputable MAINSTREAM professional Medical journal references each providing SCIENTIFIC evidence that acupuncture works.

Cr@ppy evidence, IMO. I'm suprised it got published at all, but am NOT suprised it was in JAMA which has lower standards than the New England Journal of Medicine, the same way that the British journal Lancet is top-tier and not the BMJ. Remember Lesley, everyone who is a member of the American Medical Association gets a copy of JAMA delivered to them whether they want it or not. They have great artwork on the cover, but if you took the effort to publish something, your first choice wouldn't be JAMA.

You asked for CLINICAL PROOF. I gave you CLINICAL PROOF from reputable sources. Names, dates, pages..LOOK THEM UP..READ..be informed.

I did. That is IMO poor proof that accupuncture does anything.

In the former times a patient underwent just 90% clinical examination and just 10% investigations (if necessary). Nowadays, it is vise-versa, 90% investigations and 10% clinical examination. Doctors have become too much dependent on machines and less on their powers of observation and analytical skills, unlike a good practitioner. I guess it must be the modern education and abnormal fascination for modern technology and also lure of less intellectual labor, making up for poor analytic skills, saving time, fear of too much responsibility, etc.

No, it's because in the past they didn't HAVE the equipment to run those tests. If you suddenly started falling over and having seizures and your doctor suspected you had a brain tumor, what would YOU want, an MRI or a neurosurgeon cutting your head open and poking around? Give it a rest Lesley. The medical community uses what it does for good reason, not some neferious plot (as opposed to the guy selling reiki who just wants to help, of course).

Dorian,

Lesley, they just don't care about the real journals and proof that there is

Please post for me what "real journals and proof you have read, AND your critique of it - unfortunately, I believe YOU are the one who accepts what you want, and doesn't demand much proof from what you want to believe.

When asked the Herbalist MD said that I should switch to a different med. White Willow Bark. Funny it's been around since forever..it's not been yanked off the marked because it's suddenly giving people tons of heart attacks.

Uh, hello? Why do you think aspirin was synthesized 100 years ago? Because willow bark ate up so many people's stomachs. "herbal remedies" can indeed be quite dangerous, something you might find out some day.

Now that I think of it, wasn't that drug Wellbutrin (along with others for depression was it?) recently giving people loads of scares because it seemed to be aggrevating thier suicidal urges?

Don't hear about that sort of problem with people on the Amino Acids, St. Johns Wort & Valerian (iffy on that last herb). As a matter of fact Carrie Fisher's been on that Amino Acid Therapy under her MDs care, and it's been on of the only things helping her put her life back in order.

It's tough to measure the effects of antidepressants, not that you really care if it gives you an excuse to try and bash real medicine. Many people who take them are so depressed they can't make themselves do even simple things like get out of bed, much less plan to and effectively kill themselves. It's actually a sign they were getting better that they had the energy to carry out their actions, although obviously something is horribly wrong if they are allowed to actually kill themselves! Thank the liberals for insisting the state doesn't have the right to lock down the mentally ill until they are stabilized. The reason St. John's wort etc. don't do that is people who are *really* depressed don't take them.

Lesley,

Steve..thank you for replying. Personally, I prefer to concede that the learned physicians of the entire British Health system know a tad more than I do..I'll also concede that the MD researchers at NIH know more than I do

I agree with this too, in case you are interested.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 26, 2004.

FYI, here's a brief History of Aspirin if you are interested.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 26, 2004.

Yes Frank..the JAMA article itself, said clearly that the researchers suggested MORE studies to rule out any placebo effect from mere patient-tech interaction, and that "masking" is a necessity. They also said that there are better anti-emetics available..yet in this study, they referenced animal models where electroacupuncture lessened vomiting in ferrets..surely the ferrets didn't experience placebo effect?

We all believe what we choose to believe. I spent over 30 years of my life diagnosing and treating illnesses ..I was blessed with wonderful opportunities to give whatever talents I had to benefit my patients..never stopped learning..never..still do , even though now it's only for my own edification.

I have a collection of medical texts from the 18th and 19th centuries..over the years, they kept me humble..in every single age of Medicine, people thought they "knew it all"..LOL..well, they didn't. Fascinating reading..the cure for asthma was to smoke tobacco in a closed room..the cure for rickets was to make sure the babies had a nurse who went to church..and to prevent insanity in teen aged girls? Just make sure they wore shoes with "good leather soles." ..Love it.

Today, in our arrogance, we laugh at the efforts of the physicians of old..how COULD they have missed all of the obvious clues..so simple! Oh, how I wish I could be around 100 years from now..to see what we missed, and how simple it was..

Dismiss nothing as "foolish" without serious inquiry and intellectual open-mindedness. Ignaz Semmelweiss begged doctors to simply wash their hands..they called him a fool and his idea "ridiculous". EVERY physician in Europe in his day discredited him as some kind of lunatic.

You just never know.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 26, 2004.

But the funny part Lesley is that while on the one hand you laugh at what people used to believe, you yourself want to PRACTICE that kind of healing TODAY when we know what baloney it is! That's the incomprehensible part. You are even chewing willow bark, when 100 years ago that was known to be inferior (which you don't comment on when it's pointed out). Oh well, it's your money, do what you will with it. I'm sure if you ever REALLY get sick you'll be the first in line at your doctor's office demanding everything under the sun be done.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 26, 2004.

Frank, perhaps you have me confused with someone else..about the last thing I'd be doing is munching on willow bark. My Medical practice was 100% modern medicine..I do not advocate quackery of any kind whether it is promoted by someone with an MD after their name or someone with some dubious certificate they picked up from the internet.

All I have pointed out on this entire thread is that ACUPUNCTURE has begun to be studied by "established serious medicine" in the last several years, and there have been some VALID medical studies published which have shown that it has it's place in the treatment of SOME disorders. This was to offer evidence that contrary to mere opinion, the medical community does NOT consider acupuncture to be "bunkum". ...In addition, I also pointed out that the history of Medicine has proven, time and time again, that OFTEN, what appears to be pure proven garbage turns out not to be, as time passes.

I used Ignaz Semmilweiss as an example because he was literally villified by all of his peers in Medicine who said it was "a proven FACT that hand washing had no effect whatsoever on the hospital deaths of women in obstetrical wards." These men were very well educated..the tops in their field in that day and age..all were absolutely convinced beyond any doubt that he was completely insane.

Many things in modern medicine appear to be "proven"..perhaps they are..and perhaps they are truly not.

As far as being ill myself? LOL..I have Multiple Sclerosis, and am in a wheelchair. The irony is that we don't know what causes MS or how to cure it. Perhaps it is something incredibly simple, eh?

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 27, 2004.

Lesley,

I used Ignaz Semmilweiss as an example because he was literally villified by all of his peers in Medicine who said it was "a proven FACT that hand washing had no effect whatsoever on the hospital deaths of women in obstetrical wards." These men were very well educated..the tops in their field in that day and age..all were absolutely convinced beyond any doubt that he was completely insane.

Yes, if I remember right the MD's used to go to do their pathology before performing deliveries :-( . They also refused to look at what he was trying to show them, (again, I might be remembering incorrectly, but I think he had his residents dunk their hands in lye before performing their deliveries). Pretty tough on the hands, but again, they didn't have any understanding of what caused disease. In the end, I think he became distraught and killed himself, too. I'm not saying not to test things, but that when doing so, they should be tested *well* before being implemented.

I do not think ferrets suffer a placebo effect, but this paper did not have ferrets in it, and so can't comment on them. Ferrets do however still have their experimenters' bias on their results, but not having read a ferret paper, I can't comment on that either. I'm NOT saying that their is NO effect to accupuncture, but if it was me, I'd take the Zofran. I have yet to see any evidence that there is a TREMENDOUS response from accupuncture for anything, which is unlike Kytril and Zofran which DO work TREMENDOUSLY. Why then would I recommend accupuncture?

As far as being ill myself? LOL..I have Multiple Sclerosis, and am in a wheelchair. The irony is that we don't know what causes MS or how to cure it. Perhaps it is something incredibly simple, eh?

Sorry to hear about your condition, I don't think there is going to be any answer anytime soon, a lot of good neurologists have tried and failed at finding one. OTOH, it is a disease (as I'm sure you know) that waxes and wanes. I don't wish to make this personal, as your own personal history should remain that - your own, but if you don't mind, I would like to know if anyone has recommended accupunture for this, and if so has it made a long-lasting difference.

And sorry about the mix-up, that was Dorian with the willow bark.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), December 27, 2004.

I'll bite..LOL..of course. Some lovely people have suggested all kinds of things for me to sample to either "cure" me or to reduce my symptoms..bee venom seems to have been popular at one time..but so far, I haven't run into anyone who has recommended acupuncture, and if they did, I'd thank them for their concern and politely decline.

"AHA" everyone says.."gotcha"..LOL..nope. I am a steadfast believer in utilizing any treatment which has been studied by medical experts and has SOME proven benefits, even if the "why" cannot be understood yet. I take topamax for the pain I have..nobody really knows why that works for many folks who have neuropathic pain..same as neurontin..but it does. Perhaps some day, some bright light will figure that one out. In the meantime, it helps. Haven't seen any study yet which shows any meaningful benefit concerning pain from muscle spasms/MS and acupuncture..if and when I do, I'd be happy to give it a go.

Personally, and professionally, if it hasn't been studied, and shown to have valid benefits, I wouldn't use it, nor recommend it. YET I would recommend studying anything which has widespread anecdoctal history. There is usually some grain of truth in anecdoctal "cures". Unfortunately, funding for research is limited..one has to fund what looks like it has the best chance of yielding results.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 27, 2004.

“surely the ferrets didn't experience placebo effect?”

A common misconception Lesley. The placebo effect in not an “experience” which is “all in your mind”. It is something that actually happens. In any properly conducted scientific experiment, the placebo effect (a sugar pill or “fake” simulated treatment) will be apparently effective in anything between 10% and 50% of cases. The placebo effect happens regardless of how strong-willed, skeptical, intelligent or educated the patient is. It is seen in unconscious people and animals just as in conscious humans. If the same experiment is repeated on the same group of patients, a placebo effect will again be seen, but in a DIFFERENT sub-group than the first time.

I’m sorry to hear about your illness. I had a close friend with MS. I hope you’re frequently receiving the Sacrament of the Sick, as well as receiving the best medical treatment.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 27, 2004.