premarital sex, artificial contraceptives, abortion of zygotes,......etc....etc....greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
Could you please tell where it says in the bible that the following things are sinfull and what did jesus say about it1/pre-marital sex
2/masturbation
3/the abortion of zygotes
4/artificial contraceptives
5/homosexuality
6/alcohol abuse at certain occasions
7/no acceptance of the pope's and chruch's authority
8/oral sex
9/letting the possibility open to have children inside marriage
10/gambling
Thanks,
Akra
-- akramat ariyouan kukurhoyev (jesus_saves@yeahright.com), December 14, 2004
Could you please tell where it says in the bible that the following things are sinfull and what did jesus say about it{ok.I'll answer the General Christain ones, the spacificlaly Catholic ones I leave to others. except Artificial Contraception, since it has a relevane here.}-zAROVE
1/pre-marital sex
{The Torah mentions it as a sin in Leviticus, where the entre chapter 18 is deicated to restircting sex an eliminating adultery and fornication. Int he general epistles, it is a sin in the following.
Acts 15:20; Romans 1:29; 1 Corinthians 5:1; 6:13,18; 7:2; 10:8; 12:21; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; Jude 7 all list this as a sin.
Jesus spacificlaly mentions it as well.
Mathew 15:19, for instance, in whihc he lists it as a sin.}-Zarove
2/masturbation
{This one is spacific to Catholisism, so I shall abstain from answering and allow a catholic to answer.}
3/the abortion of zygotes
{part of the Ten Commandments. "Thou shalt Not Kill." You can find it in Exodus chapter 20 verse 13. If you argue that Abortion sint Murder, I remind you that Zygote is as Human and alive as anyone posting on this board, and the whole objecyion to Abortion is thta it is Murder.
Mark 10:14 conforms this frm Jesus's mouth. }-Zarove
4/artificial contraceptives
{Nonapplicable. They did not exist in Biblical times, and, as Catholics, they woudl not be limited tot he Bible but also by the Modern guidance of th Holy Spirit through the Magestrum, soemtugn you seem ignorant of.}-Zarove
5/homosexuality
{Leviticus 18:22.Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Read it, its pretty straightforward.
New testament Ocndemnation also exits for the practice. Roimans 1:26- 27 should be suffecient for anyone to read and unerstand. }-Zarove
6/alcohol abuse at certain occasions
{not a sin. Only excess is a sin. Really I htink you confuse Catholics with Fundamentakists who order abstenance form all alcahol. I personally advcate temperence, however, moderate Alcahol use is not a sin. Indeed, ti was even reccomended int he Bible medicinally. Cathlics take wine for Communion even...
Please learn WHAT the Catholcis teahc before trign to condemn them of ther beleifs...}-Zarove
7/no acceptance of the pope's and chruch's authority
{Leave this one tot he Catholics...}-Zarove
8/oral sex
{I beleive this one is also left to the Catholics.}-Zarove
9/letting the possibility open to have children inside marriage
{Again, we leave this ot he Catholcis as its spacificlaly Catholic n nature. Most Hcurhces do not teach this.}-Zarove
10/gambling
{ Not germane. No one ever aid Gambling itsself was a sin. However, excessive gambling is a sin, as it causes ne to lose controle. Noenthekess, the act of Gambling is itsself not a sin.}-Zarove
Thanks,
Akra
{Did you hienslty think these thigns wherent mentioned int he Bible lad? Just curious.}-Zarove
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 14, 2004.
Yes many of these things are just teachings of the catholic chruch right? like you said it yourselfNow my opinion is that a true Christian chruch should base ALL of it's theachings on a correct interpretation of the bible and not add by itself any additional commands or sins
-- akramat ariyouan kukurhoyev (jesus_saves@yeahright.com), December 14, 2004.
Yes many of these things are just teachings of the catholic chruch right? like you said it yourself{cATHOLCIS SOEMTIMES HAVE bILICAL ANSWERS FOR SOEM THAT i LEF TOU THOUGH...LIKE THE pOPE... I lef tthem out becaue Im not Catholic andit woid be imprudent to anseer.
However, MOST of the things on your list where General chrisain doctoriens.}-Zarove
Now my opinion is that a true Christian chruch should base ALL of it's theachings on a correct interpretation of the bible and not add by itself any additional commands or sins
{And your opinion maters how? To Catholics? There beelifs differ, and your pinion carries little weight.
Oncedentlaly, soem of them wherent even Catholci teachings. The Catholci churhc dos not teach that drinkign alcahol is a sin in and of itsself. Nor, to my knowleve at leats, does it teah gambling is a sin.
By the way, what about the Srtuff you asked where its said o be a sin and I showed you? do you think a true Chrisyain chruch shoudl nto condemn Premrital sex?If so how do you reconcile the Biblial command agaisnt such? If you think the True Christain chruch shoudln teach agaisnt Adultery, then how is it that you ignore the palin word of Scrptures?
The fact that you ignore these points illustrates a deep seated error in your thinking.}-Zarove
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 14, 2004.
No, the Catholic Church doesn't teach that drinking or gambling is a sin, unless it gets excessive. For example, we use wine for Mass, and bingo (which Catholics are known for) is a form of gambling.
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 14, 2004.
"Now my opinion is that a true Christian chruch should base ALL of it's theachings on a correct interpretation of the bible"A: First of all, that "opinion" is in direct conflict with the Bible, which plainly states that the Church Christ founded, not a book the Church compiled, is the pillar and foundation of truth and the only authorized arbitrator of conflicts on matters of faith and morals. The leaders of His Church, not a book, were given complete authority on all matters of faith and morals.
Secondly, correct interpretation of the Bible is available only through the divinely ordained authority of the Church He founded. The man-made tradition of sola scriptura cannot provide anyone with correct interpretation of the Bible, as the thousands of conflicting, contradicting Protestant denominations clearly demonstrate. Anyone who lives by correct interpretation of the Bible lives by the teaching of the Church, for the Bible reveals that Christ told the leaders of His Church "he who listens to you listens to Me", and "whatsoever you bind upon earth is bound in heaven", and "the Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth". Do you believe these promises made by God Himself, directly to the bishops of His Church? If not, how can you claim to follow the Bible? If so, how can you stubbornly cling to a manmade tradition which has produced nothing but division, fragmentation, and doctrinal chaos since its very beginning?
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 14, 2004.
I only asked where i could find those things in the bible and thnx for your helpI don't know much about those things so that's why i asked:)
I don't actually if those things that i mentioned make someone not a true Christian,so that's why i asked
I think it's very logical that any Christian church should only theach the bible on the field of religion
-- akramat ariyouan kukurhoyev (jesus_saves@yeahright.com), December 14, 2004.
I doubt that was your motive. You probaey hard thes thigns arent actlaly in the Bible and designed ot attack us with that fact, ignorant of both the Cahtolic churhc and its posiiton on suhc matters, and the stark reality of the Bible itsself.no offence, but you seem like the type to stir toruble.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 14, 2004.
"I think it's very logical that any Christian church should only theach the bible on the field of religion"A: It might initially seem logical to those who have rejected the actual source of authority Christ gave us, His Church. However, after 450 years of producing fruit exactly the opposite of the unity Christ described as the mark of His Church, it doesn't seem logical at all to continue blindly following such a destructive tradition. Also, if the Bible contains every Christian truth, and it is an essential truth that the Church should teach only from the Bible, then presumably the Bible must contain that essential truth. So, where in the Bible can I read that the Church should teach only from the Bible? And incidentally, how did the Christian Church survive before the New Testament was written, and before the Bible was defined and compiled by the Catholic Church? What did the Church teach from in those days?
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 14, 2004.
i knew that some of these things are mentioned in the bible,but i didn't know what things exactly,but i wanted to know where(old testament or the new testament...),i wanted to know what jesus said about it and in which context it was written
-- akramat ariyouan kukurhoyev (jesus_saves@yeahright.com), December 14, 2004.
i said on religious field(sorry is this doesn't sound correct but i hope you understand what i mean)the church can teach many things that are not written in the bible,but then they don't have to say that that is God's word and they don't have to define what is sin or not because only God can do so
this is the difference between belief(or faith?i don't know which is correct)and religion
And the church isn't infallible,there were days that the catholic church were actually doing many things against God's teachings and i think we all know that(the crusades,the indulgences,the bible was red in latin and nobody of the casaul people could know anything about it,the inquisitions ...etc) and they apologised for that
-- akramat ariyouan kukurhoyev (jesus_saves@yeahright.com), December 14, 2004.
> "the church can teach many things that are not written in the bible,but then they don't have to say that that is God's word and they don't have to define what is sin or not because only God can do so"A: Wrong. If you believe the Bible, then you must believe EVERYTHING the Church teaches, because the Bible specifically tells us that WHATSOEVER the Church binds upon earth is bound in heaven, and that the Holy Spirit guides the Church to ALL truth. The Church is the final authority on all doctrinal matters. It has been from the beginning, and that fact is verified in the Bible. If you reject ANYTHING the Church teaches you are contradicting the Bible, because you are saying "I don't believe the Holy Spirit guides the Church to ALL truth, even though the Bible says He does, and I don't believe that everything the Church binds upon earth is bound in heaven, even though the Bible clearly says it is"!
> "And the church isn't infallible,there were days that the catholic church were actually doing many things against God's teachings and i think we all know that(the crusades,the indulgences,the bible was red in latin and nobody of the casaul people could know anything about it,the inquisitions"
A: I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment (lunch break at work), so I won't go into your various misconceptions about the Crusades, indulgences, the Latin Bible and the Inquisitions. Maybe when I have more time. For now I'll just point out that IF any of the above actually were against the will of God, that still has absolutely nothing to do with the Church's charism of infallibility. Infallibility doesn't mean that members of the Church, including its leaders, cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are all sinners. Infallibility means ONLY that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching any doctrinal error; and without that precious gift no-one on earth would have any way of knowing with certainty what is true and what is not true in matters of the faith. We would simply have to guess, and the result would be what we see in Protestantism - disintegration into doctrinal chaos.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 14, 2004.
Akra, It's impossible for the Catholic Church to base all of its beliefs in scripture, because the Catholic Church predates the Bible. The Catholic Church existed 400-500 years (correct me if I'm wrong, Paul) before the Catholic Church put together the Bible. The New Testament is a collection of writings from the Catholic Bishops of the Early Church. So what did people rely on before the Bible was put together? The infallibity of the Church. The Church put the Bible together infallibly, so if you believe in the Bible, you believe in the Church. If the Church was infallible THEN, why not NOW? What has changed? Nothing. Except the Church has gotten bigger and spread over the entire world.
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 15, 2004.
Dear Akra: (cut & pasted mostly from the online Catholic Encyclopedia..go there to read the full explinations)1/pre-marital sex, 8/oral sex & 4/ Contraceptives: The Church’s teaching on artificial contraception is only one part of its understanding of human sexuality. This teaching sees sexuality as both a wonderful gift and an awesome responsibility, a precious part of God’s plan that has potential for great abuse.
Because sexual intercourse is designed to unite two people in an act of vulnerability and intimacy, it is reserved for married couples. And because God shares with us the ability to create life through lovemaking, it is imbued with special responsibilities, one of which is to be open to the procreative possibility of intercourse.
The Church, however, has become more sensitive in recent decades to the needs of married couples to responsibly space the births of their children, and as far back as 1951 Pope Pius XII taught that couples could reasonably avoid procreation for the entire duration of their marriage. Catholic teaching requires that this spacing occur naturally, using the biological ebb and flow of the woman’s fertility cycle. Natural family planning is not only a way to avoid or achieve pregnancy; it is also a way for couples to become closer through the shared task of charting fertile and infertile periods. Many couples report a greater knowledge of each other and a greater respect for God’s plan after practicing natural family planning.
The U.S. bishops’ 1990 document Human Sexuality: A Catholic Perspective for Education and Lifelong Learning also counsels pastoral sensitivity for “those who feel confused or who have genuine doubts about the wisdom of this teaching”. While stressing that they must present the living tradition of the Church with clarity and conviction, they also strive for compassion and care “for all those who seek the truth with a sincere heart.”
Dorian Note: I don't believe in the Rhythm Method or Natural Family Planning to prevent pregnancies. If I was to be Orthodox, I'd have to advocate Abstinance to prevent pregnancies as well as AIDs, and other Sexually Transmitted Diseases.
And even though it breaks with my upbringing, I still believe that condoms though not 100% effective, can help prevent the spread of Sexually Transmitted Diseases, as well as birth control pills, and diaphrams used with the proper spermicides can prevent unwanted pregnancy.
Premarital Sex is discouraged and in the bible..I'm drawing a blank on where.
Oral Sex (which you can still contract or pass on Sexually Transmitted Diseases and even become pregnant by (if you were to get any of the males seed near the womans sexual opening) Is still considered 'Sex'. So if you were having premarital Oral Sex it's considered in the same boat as regular premarital Sex and is discouraged.
The discouragment of Contraceptives I believe is just a Roman Catholic belief, and I'm not sure where in the bible it says not to use them.
6/Alcohol Abuse: You don't need any biblical teaching to know that it can ruin your health by destroying your liver. But I think you're confusing Roman Catholic dogma with Fundamental Christians and Muslims who believe it's a sin to drink alcohol. I know that the bible teaches moderation.
2/masturbation: Not sure the bible says anything in particular about that. But then again being female, if it did, I think it's something they only discussed with the guys.
3/Abortion: one of the ten commandments: "Thou Shall Not Kill".
St. Gregory of Nyssa had advocated the view which modern science has confirmed almost to a certainty, namely, that the same life principle quickens the organism from the first moment of its individual existence until its death. Now it is at the very time of conception, or fecundation, that the embryo begins to live a distinct individual life.
The early Christians are the first on record as having pronounced abortion to be the murder of human beings, for their public apologists, Athenagoras, Tertullian, and Minutius Felix , to refute the slander that a child was slain, and its flesh eaten, by the guests at the Agapae, appealed to their laws as forbidding all manner of murder, even that of children in the womb. The Fathers of the Church unanimously maintained the same doctrine. In the fourth century the Council of Eliberis decreed that Holy Communion should be refused all the rest of her life, even on her deathbed, to an adulteress who had procured the abortion of her child. The Sixth Ecumenical Council determined for the whole Church that anyone who procured abortion should bear all the punishments inflicted on murderers. In all these teachings and enactments no distinction is made between the earlier and the later stages of gestation
7/Acceptance of the pope's and chruch's authority:
The title pope, once used with far greater latitude (see below, section V), is at present employed solely to denote the Bishop of Rome, who, in virtue of his position as successor of St. Peter, is the chief pastor of the whole Church, the Vicar of Christ upon earth.
Besides the bishopric of the Roman Diocese, certain other dignities are held by the pope as well as the supreme and universal pastorate: he is Archbishop of the Roman Province, Primate of Italy and the adjacent islands, and sole Patriarch of the Western Church. The Church's doctrine as to the pope was authoritatively declared in the Vatican Council in the Constitution "Pastor Aeternus". The four chapters of that Constitution deal respectively with the office of Supreme Head conferred on St. Peter, the perpetuity of this office in the person of the Roman pontiff, the pope's jurisdiction over the faithful, and his supreme authority to define in all questions of faith and morals.
The proof that Christ constituted St. Peter head of His Church is found in the two famous Petrine texts, Matthew 16:17-19, and John 21:15-17.
In virtue of his supreme judicial authority
causae majores are reserved to him. By this term are signified cases dealing with matters of great moment, or those in which personages of eminent dignity are concerned.
His appellate jurisdiction has been discussed in the previous section. It should, however, be noted that the pope has full right, should he see fit, to deal even with causae minores in the first instance, and not merely by reason of an appeal (Trent, Sess. XXIV; cap. 20).
In what concerns punishment, he can inflict censures either by judicial sentence or by general laws which operate without need of such sentence.
He further reserves certain cases to his own tribunal. All cases of heresy come before the Congregation of the Inquisition. A similar reservation covers the cases in which a bishop or a reigning prince is the accused party.
9/letting the possibility open to have children inside marriage:
I'm not sure I understood your question.
10/ Gambling:
From very early times gambling was forbidden by canon law. Two of the oldest (41, 42) among the so-called canons of the Apostles forbade games of chance under pain of excommunication to clergy and laity alike. The 79th canon of the Council of Elvira (306) decreed that one of the faithful who had been guilty of gambling might be, on amendment, restored to communion after the lapse of a year. A homily (the famous "De Aleatoribus") long ascribed by St. Cyprian, but by modern scholars variously attributed to Popes Victor I, Callistus I, and Melchiades, and which undoubtedly is a very early and interesting monument of Christian antiquity, is a vigorous denunciation of gambling. The Fourth Lateran Council (1215), by a decree subsequently inserted in the "Corpus Juris", forbade clerics to play or to be present at games of chance. Some authorities, such as Aubespine, have attempted to explain the severity of the ancient canons against gambling by supposing that idolatry was often connected with it in practice. The pieces that were played with were small-sized idols, or images of the gods, which were invoked by the players for good luck. However, as Benedict XIV remarks, this can hardly be true, as in that case the penalties would have been still more severe.
Profane writers of antiquity are almost as severe in their condemnation of gambling as are the councils of the Christian Church. Tacitus and Ammianus Marcellinus tell us that by gambling men are led into fraud, cheating, lying, perjury, theft, and other enormities; while Peter of Blois says that dice is the mother of perjury, theft, and sacrilege. The old canonists and theologians remark that although the canons generally mention only dice by name, yet under this appellation must be understood all games of chance; and even those that require skill, if they are played for money.
The Council of Trent contented itself with ordering all the ancient canons on the subject to be observed, and in general prescribed that the clergy were to abstain from unlawful games. As Benedict XIV remarks, it was left to the judgment of the bishops to decide what games should be held to be unlawful according to the different circumstances of person, place, and time. St. Charles Borromeo, in the first Synod of Milan, put the Tridentine decree into execution, and drew up a list of games which were forbidden to the clergy, and another list of those that were allowed. Among those which he forbade were not only dicing in various forms, but also games something like our croquet and football. Other particular councils declared that playing at dice and cards was unbecoming and forbidden to clerics, and in general they forbade all games which were unbecoming to the clerical state. Thus, a council held at Bordeaux in 1583 decreed that the clergy were to abstain altogether from playing in public or in private at dice, cards, or any other forbidden and unbecoming game. The council held at Aix in 1585 forbade them to play at cards, dice or any other game of the like kind, and even to look on at the playing of such games. Another, held at Narbonne in 1609, decreed that clerics were not to play at dice, cards, or other unlawful and unbecoming games, especially in public.
Nowadays, it is commonly held that positive ecclesiastical law only forbids games of chance, even to the clergy, when in themselves or for some extrinsic reason, such as loss of time or scandal, they are forbidden by the natural law
Theologians commonly require four conditions so that gaming may not be illicit.
What is staked must belong to the gambler and must be at his free disposal. It is wrong, therefore, for the lawyer to stake the money of his client, or for anyone to gamble with what is necessary for the maintenance of his wife and children.
The gambler must act freely, without unjust compulsion.
There must be no fraud in the transaction, although the usual ruses of the game may be allowed. It is unlawful, accordingly, to mark the cards, but it is permissible to conceal carefully from an opponent the number of trump cards one holds.
Finally, there must be some sort of equality between the parties to make the contract equitable; it would be unfair for a combination of two expert whist players to take the money of a couple of mere novices at the game.
Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian
In an effort to include people of all faiths: Enlightened Rohastu, Happy Hanukah, Bah Humbug, Merry Christmas, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year
-- Dorian (DontLikeMyAnswer_OhWell@yahoo.com), December 15, 2004.
Catholic doctrine on contraceptives, oral sex and masturbation are found in Genesis, when God himself says "be fruitful and multiply". There are few times in the Bible when the Father speaks himself, and this is one of them, meaning that what he says is important. I think everyone, Catholic and Protestant, believer and non believer, will agree that it is impossible to "be fruitful and multiply" if a man puts his seed anywhere besides a woman's vagina.
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 15, 2004.
"A: First of all, that "opinion" is in direct conflict with the Bible, which plainly states that the Church Christ founded, not a book the Church compiled, is the pillar and foundation of truth and the only authorized arbitrator of conflicts on matters of faith and morals. The leaders of His Church, not a book, were given complete authority on all matters of faith and morals. "where is this said in the bible?
and where did actually jesus ever talked about founding a church and giving them complete authority?
when he said to peter that he will be the rock on which he would build his church?
how are you so sure he meant the catholic church with that?
because it was the first church that was founded after jesus at least as far as we know
how are you so sure that the interpretation of church in that passage isn't supposed to be interpreted more metaphorically,for example the community of christians and not a religious institution?
btw peter didn't found the catholic church,the church was established round 150 after christ and peter died a long time ago...
-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 20, 2004.