If my husband insists that I take a psychiatric medication which I do not need and which can harm me, do I have to take it? Am I sinning if I don't? If so, is the sin venial or mortal?

-- Erika (maiaminna@yahoo.com), December 16, 2004

Answers

No, since htat woidl be a violation of powers. You do nt have to obey your husband if it is a cirminal act either...oR IF HE ASKS YOU TO SLEEP WITH OTHE MEN FOR HS PLEASRUE...ECT...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 16, 2004.

Such a decision is between you and your doctor, not you and your husband.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 16, 2004.

I guess I should elaborate. I was taking a medication and decided to stop because it wasn't doing me any good, had awful side effects, and was damaging my health. My doctor considers this my decision to make, but my husband wants me to take it. So - am I sinning by not taking it?

-- Erika (maiaminna@yahoo.com), December 16, 2004.

Certainly not. It is your husband who is sinning, not you. NO ONE, not even your doctor, has the right to order you as an adult to take any medicine or treatment that you do not give your free informed consent to. You don’t even have to tell your husband what if any treatment you are using if you don’t want to.

The only exception would be the rare occurrence if a patient is legally declared insane by a court order AND is proven to be a danger to himself and others unless he gets certain treatment, a doctor MAY be authorized to give him that treatment against his will. (btw most people on “psychiatric medication” are NOT legally insane.)

Btw the idea that a wife has to “obey” her husband comes from the protestant marriage service. A Catholic bride does NOT promise to “obey” her husband. The whole idea is a vile distortion of Christian marriage. A Catholic husband does not have authority over his wife. They are equals.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 17, 2004.

Presuming that you are a sacramentally married spouse, it is entirely your husbands right to have a say in how you conduct your affairs. As you have a say in how he conducts his. The two are one.

If, in the opinion of competent (a)Catholic physician(s) taking the medication in question can do you real harm that is more of a risk than the benefits of taking the medication or not, which really seems to be the question here, than you are under no obligation to follow you husband's desire for you to take the medication.

But more of the story needs to be known to make an informed evaluation.

Your husband is the head of the family and as such his choice, all other things being equal, should be followed. But it is not his decision alone. Your opinions must be taken into account and the opinions of experts in pharmacology (MD, PhD, Doctor or Pharmacist), as well.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), December 17, 2004.

LOL! Let’s hear what your wife has to say about that Karl! Btw you don’t have to be a Catholic to be a competent physician.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 17, 2004.

My wife is an adultress with the blessing of the Catholic Church, Steve. Fact.

A Catholic Physician knows Catholicism in a manner allowing he/she to make decisions using Catholic teaching.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), December 17, 2004.

Wifes and husbands are called to honor each other. There is a difference between honoring and obeying.

Also, whether the doctor is Catholic or not is totally irrelavent. We are talking about a medical decision (to take or not take the medicine), not a spiritual decision.

-- none (n@n.n), December 17, 2004.

while i do not think that a catholic physician must be consulted, i do agree with karl that more must be known about this story before a good recommendation could be reached. there are many bi-polar people who dont feel any need to take their meds. i agree that as the story appears the husband should not assert authority but perhaps, before we discredit the husband's demands, we should consider the fact that he may very well be right.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 17, 2004.

The other situation that came to mind would be severe post-partum depression, in this case one would be on such medicine to protect the children (once you have children, life is NOT about you (I mean Dad here as well) anymore, really, it isn't). Maybe the husband, who would notice a change in behavior, should videotape it to show the wife later the difference between her being on the medication and not being on it. This also applies in the case of a guy not taking medicine too.

Little Paul mentioned Bi-Polar, and it's true--people think they're fine, go off their meds, and then everything is NOT fine.

On the other hand, schools these days can and will allow your children to leave school during the day to seek medical care (including abortions) without your consent. That to me is a LOT worse. At least Erika is an adult and can make her own decisions.

Whether the physician is Catholic or not has nothing to do with this at all.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 17, 2004.

It's true that for all you know, I'm completely insane and pose a danger to myself and others unless medicated. For that matter, I may be a 50 year old male pedophile and cannibal typing from a jail cell. All I wanted to know is, assuming I actually am telling the truth, do I have to do what my husband says? I still haven't gotten a straight answer. Let's make it a hypothetical question - assuming her doctor leaves the decision up to her (depending on how she feels on the medication), does a wife have to take medication if her husband wants her to? What if the husband is abusive, and wants his wife drugged into a stupor (hypothetical), or what if he is mentally ill himself? Re: Doctor's opinions - in my case, I requested them in the first place, and whether I take them is totally dependant upon whether I feel better while taking them, as far as my doctor is concerned.

-- Erika (maiaminna@yahoo.com), December 17, 2004.

"whether I take them is totally dependant upon whether I feel better while taking them, as far as my doctor is concerned".

A: Then that's the whole story. Your medical care, like anyone else's, is between you and your doctor.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 17, 2004.

Well, this issue would not have come up at all if you hadn't told your husband you had 1) gone to the doctor, and 2) had been prescribed medicine. However, if there had been an emergency, you were unconscious, and they asked what meds you were on, he wouldn't know, perhaps causing problems with drug interactions.

Your original question strongly indicates that you were more or less coerced into going to the doctor into the first place. Why? Why not take him to the doctor with you so he can hear what the doctor says FROM THE DOCTOR?

This isn't a sin issue at all, it is your husband practicing medicine without a license.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 17, 2004.

Well, the question is whether this falls under a wife's duty to obey her husband (in the bible, St. Peter & St. Paul both mention this). I know I'm not obligated to do something that's morally wrong, but I'm not sure if this counts as "morally wrong" or just as a difference of opinion between my husband & I, in which case I have to go along with his wishes, right? He doesn't even expect me to obey him - he's a lapsed Catholic, not terribly religious - but my own conscience bothers me. Whenever we fight, he claims I need to be on medication, yet he can't even tell whether I'm on it or not by my behavior. I see it as his way of placing the blame on me & trying to hurt me, but his motives don't actually matter, do they? Unless it's a sin, don't I have to do what he says? Excuse me if I seem obsessive about this, I'm a new Catholic and I want to make sure I'm doing things right.

-- Erika (maiaminna@yahoo.com), December 17, 2004.

assuming, erika, that you don't have a condition, then the simple answer is no... you do not have to obey your husband's demands to take a medication which you do not need.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 18, 2004.

Erika,

My opinion is you are NOT sinning if you don't do what you husband asks.

My reasoning is this. A) You asked your Dr. for the meds, and you and your doctor have decided they are NOT working.

B) Your husband (not himself a doctor) is abusing his relationship with you as an equal partner by 'insisting' you take something that your own doctor has already decided doesn't work for you.

It's not as though continuing to take that ineffective medication is going to suddenly start working. (though in the case of most Psych. Drugs you need to wait about a month, for side effects to level out and for any of the desireable effects (the reason you started to take the drug in the first place) to kick in.)

Side note: If you're taking Rx Psych Meds, you should NOT be taking any OTC or Herbal anti depressants for example. They don't mix well at all & can make matters worse.

Last but not least. Since your husband seems to think that you're easier to be around when he 'thinks' your taking your meds, compared to when you aren't.

"I" Strongly suggest looking for a good marriage couselor that you should be able to locate thru your local area's Catholic Social Services. It sounds, just from the little you've said, that there are 'other' issues that need to be resolved. That might possibly have nothing to do with you. (just a guestimation on my part, from what you've said so far.)

Respect and love eachother, it sounds like you're a newlywed and recent convert to Catholicism (because of the marriage?). No need to answer the questions. Just ponder them over. You might even be able to talk to your local priest.

And like I think it was Steve suggested? To have your husband go with you to the Doctor, and let him hear for himself the drugs weren't helping you and the side effects were more of a pain in the gluts than they were worth. (Not to mention, even if you have insurance, no point in forking out that kind of money for something that doesn't work. That's about as silly as buying horse shoes for your car, instead of snow tires for the winter...unless you're other car's a carriage ;) )

Good luck. Love, Grace & Peace, Dorian

In an effort to include people of all faiths: Enlightened Rohastu, Happy Hanukah, Bah Humbug, Merry Christmas, Blessed Winters Solstice/Yule, Abundant Kwanza & Prosperous New Year

-- Dorian (DontLikeMyAnswer_HoHum@yahoo.com), December 18, 2004.

Dear Erika,

When I was still living with my wife, as she manuvered to make it appear as if I were destroying our marriage(but what later came to light was her burgeoning affair that continues today with the full support of the Catholic Church)she blackmailed me into seeing a catholic psychologist. I was furious but was told that I would be divorced if I did not and that I would lose everything including our five children, so I acquiesced.

Consequently my session with this man, which I intentionally made combatative when I heard this, supposed catholic scientist, was pro- abortion and was to render some decision on me when his own scientific and moral judgement was in grave error, was a disaster and I was diagnosed as Psychotic-Manic Depressive, after only this session. He prescribed a psychoactive combination drug, which I was forced to consume under threat of divorce. After about four or five days I developed a very dry mouth with a swelling tongue, bi-temporal headaches and nausea. Very soon I informed my wife that suicide was not on my agenda and that she could go ahead and divorce me if I refused to kill myself for her.

Ultimately I was forced to see a psychologist and another psychiatrist, who concluded that the Psychosis was non-existant. They found that I was not able to cope with the impending break-up of my marriage, in a nut shell. The psychiatrist flatly told me to discard the medication, that there was nothing, organically, wrong with me. When I returned home after that final visit with the psychiatrist I told my wife that I was advised to not take any further medication. She was washing dishes at the time. Immediately after I told her this she slammed a glass into our sink and broke it. She was just a bit upset.

I never took another medication for it. I was divorced and lost everything, including any custodial rights to our five children. Two other psychologists examined me later, at my request, concluding that my problems stemmed from my inability to cope with a destroyed marriage but there was no organic basis.

The Catholic Church supported this charade and still does.

So, I know what you are likely going through.

I stand by my advice from both experience and knowledge.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), December 18, 2004.

Karl, the Catholic Church does not condone adultery. Fact. From my observation, adultery is never the first step in the breakdown of a marriage relationship. Usually it starts with sinful attitudes such as someone expecting his spouse to obey him.

Erika, “do I have to do what my husband says?” Straight answer - NO, you never have to do what your husband says. It is good for a wife to take her husband’s opinions into account, though there are many occasions where it is not appropriate to seek his opinion or for him to offer it. YOU are responsible for your behavior and you most certainly do NOT ever have to obey him unless YOU decide to. Catholics don’t (or shouldn’t) decide what to do by simply taking Bible verses and trying to interpret from them rules for their own behavior. Our Savior founded the Church which made the Bible. That Church tells you you do NOT have to obey your husband, so your scruples about Bible verses are irrelevant.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 18, 2004.

"obey"..no. As others have pointed out, the Sacrament of Marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman and God. Both husband and wife are equal spouses who love and respect one another.

Often, when one spouse is "demanding" that another take medication, it is out of concern for the other..but it comes out as anger. Worry and anxiety can frequently be expressed via anger unfortunately. Not everyone is gifted with a gentle personality. Only you know your husband's temperment.

It's difficult to strike a balance between meeting your own needs and the needs of your husband (who sounds worried about you). "Obey" your husband and take medication or sin? No..there is not any sin there. Yet, it does sound as if the two of you do need to be able to come to a better understanding of one anothers' needs and concerns. Catholic Charities (as I think someone already mentioned) has some wonderful Marriage Retreats..one doesn't have to have a marriage which is in great difficulty to benefit from them..

the key is to attend a marriage retreat to strengthen your marriage, answer questions such as yours, and to leave with a sense of spiritual renewal.

Perhaps both you and your husband would consider attending such a Marriage Retreat for 2005..

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 18, 2004.

In this case, the medication appears to be side-show.

There is some misunderstanding between husband and wife. It is an underlying conflict they are not resolving between each other. He should not be attempting to dominate her unjustly, and she should not be arguing with him by bringing his actions to this forum seeking the criticism of strangers (she knows herself that her husband's request is wrong...the doctor has explained this already).

I suggest she approach her husband, and out of love for him, ask him to attend a marriage counseling session so they can use this current crisis as a means to grow together, rather than apart. If he refuses, then she will know she has done the right thing and she will grow herself, regardless whether her husband is ready to grow at this time.

They should move to resolve this through counseling because there current level of communication needs rejuvenation. Even if he refuses, he will know in his heart that his wife has tried to help him by the means that is least hurtful, and most helpful.

She should also pray for marital grace, for the both of them. That grace is promised and it is always available, especially for these types of trying circumstances.

-- Pat Delaney (patrickrdelaney@yahoo.com), December 18, 2004.

“Your husband is the head of the family and as such his choice, all other things being equal, should be followed. But it is not his decision alone. Your opinions must be taken into account and the opinions of experts in pharmacology (MD, PhD, Doctor or Pharmacist), as well.”

So Karl, I take it that your wife (or I assume you mean the woman you believed was your wife) does NOT think you should be her “head”? As for your so-called experts, what a lot of tosh. Erika and her doctor should make the decision. Her pharmacist could advise her about the drug’s effects and side-effects but NOT whether she should take it (assuming it’s a prescription drug). A pharmacologist could tell her how the drug works but would have no idea whether she should take it. A PhD would be totally useless, except if his PhD happened to be in medicine (rather than engineering, arts etc) and if she was his patient.

Yes Lesley maybe Erika's husband is acting out of love and concern rather than a bully who wants his wife to take the medication for HIS convenience. But even if this is so, there are times when a wife has to say charitably to her husband, "this is none of your business".

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 19, 2004.

Steve,

In spite of the fact that your statements disagree with Church teaching and imply effiminate feminist indoctrination I would still disagree with your observation based upon the evil rhetorical contained within your compassionately void self serving posting.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), December 19, 2004.

You seem to be one seriously insecure guy Daniel. Pray tell what did I say that is “evil”, or “void” of all compassion? Refusing to bully women is not "effeminate". It's what being a REAL MAN is all about. In your upside-down world, it’s “self-serving” if a man wants to treat his wife as his equal, but NOT if he demands that she obey him! LOL! I hope one day you can grow up and become a real man.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 19, 2004.

Recent publications by the Vatican seem to indicate a movement away from the use of terms for headship and submission. The apparent justification for this seems to lie in the fact that these scriptural references refer to our fallen state and as such are not the ideal to be strived for, which apparently is some kind of collegiality of mutual respect. I would say that since these same articles did not deny headship and submission that as Catholics, as I believe Augustine would say, that we must accept all teachings that apparently conflict until there is a final resolution, whenever that may be.

It is all very confusing and this issue certainly can bring out passions, which to me certainly indicates the reality of our fallen state and the need for familial organization that does not support the stalemate that can exist when pure equals disagree.

In the ideal, which we will only attain in heaven and since there is no marriage in heaven this marital relationship has no reality, as I can understand it, both spouse are indeed created in the image and likeness of God and our relationships should strive for the perfect unity of the Blessed Trinity, where there are indeed three distinct and separate persons in one God but to leave us with this direction in our fallen state is, to me, not helpful. But then I may misunderstand what I have read. Otherwise I hope there is more concrete direction from Rome in short order, which of course in roman time may be in a generation or two or longer.

God help us!

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), December 19, 2004.

Steve,

Thanks for confirming my statement.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), December 20, 2004.

How could a WIFE possibly say to her HUSBAND with any sense of "charity" that "it's none of your business" ??????

My goodness Steve. Anything to do with a man's wife is his "business". How secular can a person get? I cannot imagine one spouse saying that to another.

Turn this situation around. Suppose a wife is upset, concened, frustrated..whatever..because her husband tells her he doesn't think he needs to take a specific medication any longer and she thinks he ought to. It doesn't really matter one bit who is right and who is wrong about the medication..that's NOT the issue. The real issue is this couple is in the middle of marital discord over this.

Marital discord is never solved by one spouse telling the other "it's none of your business." Yes, according to the laws of the land, the spouse is prohibited from speaking to the physician concerning the medication....yes, according to the laws of the land, the spouse has nothing to say in the individual's decision between herself and her physician..BUT between the TWO spouses?

I would be aghast if my husband said those words to me and would never even think to say them to him "it's none of your business."

"they will become as one flesh"..how are they as "one flesh" if one is advised to say to the other "it's none of your business." ???

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 20, 2004.

This may add to the discussion -emphasis added:

LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE COLLABORATION OF MEN AND WOMEN
IN THE CHURCH AND IN THE WORLD

"I. THE QUESTION

2. Recent years have seen new approaches to women's issues. A first tendency is to emphasize strongly conditions of subordination in order to give rise to antagonism: women, in order to be themselves, must make themselves the adversaries of men. Faced with the abuse of power, the answer for women is to seek power. This process leads to opposition between men and women, in which the identity and role of one are emphasized to the disadvantage of the other, leading to harmful confusion regarding the human person, which has its most immediate and lethal effects in the structure of the family."

From this, in my opinion, it is self-evident that subordination is Church teaching. Error in emphasis and or application does not contravene the objective authentic requirement necessary as authentically observed within the family structure.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), December 20, 2004.

Daniel, please don’t put the same post on more than one thread.

Lesley, becoming one flesh does not mean that they cease to have any function as individuals. How to say it charitably? Something like “Darling, I know you are concerned about this but it is something I consider to be very personal and private to me, so I would prefer to make my own decision about it.” There is nothing "secular" about this, indeed it is part of the respect between spouses inherent to Christian marriage.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 20, 2004.

Daniel, please don’t put the same post on more than one thread.

Steve,

Thank you for your concern. Don't worry about it.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), December 21, 2004.

For those interested -related thread:

Does the Church teach wives must obey husbands?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), December 23, 2004.

Re:- Letter to the bishops. Daniel, if you care to notice the phrase, "faced with the abuse of power", you would notice that that is where the problem lies. If men stopped abusing their power there would be no marital strife or disharmony. Men are commanded by St.Paul to love their wives'. Your attitude and that of Erikas husband, is neither constructive or loving.

-- Miriam (transgalactic@hotmail.co.uk), January 03, 2005.