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why are catholics saying that jesus established their church and gave the church complete authority?where is this said in the bible?
-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 20, 2004
I suggest you search the archives. This question has been answered so many times....
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 20, 2004.
The Bible tells us that Jesus founded a Church - ONE Church for all men, not a tradition of thousands of conflicting denominations. The Bible also tells us that He gave that ONE Church full authority to teach in His name, telling those He placed in headship over that ONE Church ..."He who hears YOU hears Me; he who rejects you rejects Me" ...
"When the Holy Spirit comes, He will guide YOU to all truth" ...
"Whatsoever YOU bind upon earth is bound in heaven" ...
And to the one man singled out as the head of the Apostles and of the Church - "I give unto YOU the keys to my kingdom", the universal symbol of headship and authority.
Paul preaches the same thing when he refers to the ONE Church established by Christ as "THE pillar and foundation of truth".
The only thing that remains is to verify that the ONE Church Christ founded for all men is indeed the Holy Catholic Church. That historical information is available not from the Bible but from history, which clearly reveals that the Catholic Church was the only Christian Church on earth for 1,000 years after the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ; and that the Church of the Apostles was calling itself the Holy Catholic Church by the end of the First Century.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), December 20, 2004.
"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me." Luke 10:16"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you." John 16:12-15
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19
"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." Matthew 18:18
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 20, 2004.
Paul, I couldn't find the one about the pillar and the foundation of truth.
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 20, 2004.
I forgot to add that I'm sure it's in there, I just don't know where.
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 20, 2004.
On the eve of His Pasion and death, which came to be called the Last Supper (look it up, sdqa,) Jesus Christ consecrated bread and wine, giving it to the apostles, the first nucleus of the Catholic faith; to eat and to drink; His body and blood. He called it the New and everlasting Covenant; ratified in His sacrifice on Calvary. This is our Holy Eucharist being offered on a million Catholic altars over all the world forever. Only the original Church of the holy apostles is offering it now, and offered it always from that day onward. Holy Mass, this sacrament, is the seal of Christ's everlasting Church. No other assembly ever offered it and still offers it, fulfilling the holy words of Jesus Christ. He commanded us, ''Do this in memory of me.''
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 20, 2004.
where is this said in the bible?and where did actually jesus ever talked about founding a church and giving them complete authority?
when he said to peter that he will be the rock on which he would build his church?
how are you so sure he meant the catholic church with that?
because it was the first church that was founded after jesus at least as far as we know
how are you so sure that the interpretation of church in that passage isn't supposed to be interpreted more metaphorically,for example the community of christians and not a religious institution?
btw peter didn't found the catholic church,the church was established round 150 after christ and peter died a long time ago...
-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 20, 2004.
Cameron, here it is:1 Tim. 3:15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), December 20, 2004.
''--where is this said in the bible? and where did actually jesus ever talked about founding a church and giving them complete authority? Matthew 16 :18, ***Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church. Jesus changes the name of His apostle Simon, calling him the ROCK, Peter.***''when he said to peter that he will be the rock on which he would build his church? --'' Correct.
''how are you so sure he meant the catholic church with that? We are sure. The Greek word Catholic means ''Universal''-- which embraces the whole world. The Catholic Church is the first & only faith that went out to the whole world. That's why it's named Catholic, Universal.
''because it was the first church that was founded after jesus at least as far as we know?'' No, definitely; not ''as far''.
''how are you so sure that the interpretation of church in that passage isn't supposed to be interpreted more metaphorically, for example the community of christians and not a religious institution?'' Because the holy apostles, Peter and the others weren't metaphors. They were apostles, which means ''sent''-- to teach the faith to the whole world. And, the world isn't a metaphor either. The Catholic Church IS the original ''community of Christians'' and was founded by Jesus Christ. Not a ''religious institution'' -- the CHURCH, Jesus' Mystical Body, built on His apostles, with Peter as the Rock. b>
''btw peter didn't found the catholic church,the church was established round 150 after christ and peter died a long time ago...'' --Sorry, you're wrong. Here in this forum you're being told the truth. Peter was in fact the first Pope of the Catholic Church. The whole Christian world has always acknowledged him as our first Pope in Rome; always up to the so-called ''reformation'', when self-ordained ministers started to deny it. We KNOW the truth; the Holy Spirit is with the Church. He is God, who can neither deceive nor be deceived.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 20, 2004.
--
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 20, 2004.
"btw peter didn't found the catholic church,the church was established round 150 after christ and peter died a long time ago..."True that Peter did not found the Church...Christ founded it. Some in this forum have referred to it as the "Church of the Apostles"...point is, sometime between 100-200, the name "Catholic" (meaning universal, comprehensive, or all inclusive) began to be used. It's the same church that was founded a couple hundred years before, by Christ, but it was the first time this name was used.
Basic history, friend.
-- none (n@n.nn), December 20, 2004.
Basic history, friend.Jesus Christ still 'is' -basic understanding, friend
-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), December 20, 2004.
Thanks Emily
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 21, 2004.
"None" hit a point.Catholic just means universal. We refer to the Catholic Church to differentiate it from the other traditions, churches, and ecclesial communities.
As catholics, we think of the Church as the Body of Christ, as the body as described by St. Paul, as a living community of Christians.
Christ's Church might be a better title. It's a community of the followers of Jesus.
If you are a Christian, you are a member of his Church. But, are you fully educated in what that means and are you enjoying the fullness of truth?
(That will probably spark a debate, but...)
Most people don't have the education in the area of why the Church instructs the way it does.
There are 2000 plus years of work that has been done in theology.
Striving to understand God and our pursuit of his intent for us is a life-long endeavor.
I,for one, am not the Christian I was last year, nor will I be next year.
The more one learns, the more one understands the reasons why.
God bless,
-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), December 21, 2004.
'Sorry, you're wrong. Here in this forum you're being told the truth. Peter was in fact the first Pope of the Catholic Church. The whole Christian world has always acknowledged him as our first Pope in Rome'NO
INCORRECT!
whatever your beliefs may be but peter the disciple wasn't the first pope
this is a historical fact and all theologists agree with it and so does the catholic church
the first pope's name was peter and that's true but it's not peter the apostel
these are two different people
you can look this up everywhere you want and you'll see that i'm correct
-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 21, 2004.
if you think logically jesus was 33 when he was crucified,peter was his disciple then,lets say that peter was 20 years old then for example,then you'll come to know that it's impossible for someone to live 130 years more and become the first pope in the catholic chuch which was established roun 150 after christand didn't peter and paul die under the tortures of emperor caligula,i'm not sure about this but i'll certainly look it up
-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 21, 2004.
'We are sure. The Greek word Catholic means ''Universal''-- which embraces the whole world. The Catholic Church is the first & only faith that went out to the whole world. That's why it's named Catholic, Universal. 'jesus didn't gave it the 'universal'(catholic) name,but people did
no there was no church before the catholic church as a religious institution but there were other non-catholic communities of christian ,like the gnostics for example
-- jerry (doofykorn@hotmail.com), December 21, 2004.
whatever your beliefs may be but peter the disciple wasn't the first popethis is a historical fact and all theologists agree with it and so does the catholic church
the first pope's name was peter and that's true but it's not peter the apostel
these are two different people
you can look this up everywhere you want and you'll see that i'm correct - sdqa
sdqa,
I think you are mistaken. Catholics acknowledge that the first pope was St. Peter the Apostle.
Refs from Catholic Encyclopedia:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm (The Pope)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01641a.htm (Apostolic Succession)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm (List of Popes)
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 21, 2004.
peter wasn't the first pope,catholics DO agree with thisthis is a historical fact
-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 21, 2004.
FUNNY HOW YOUR WHOLE BELIEFS ARE BASED ON IGNORANCE
-- jerry (doofykorn@hotmail.com), December 21, 2004.
Then why is the Papal Office called the Office of Peter? Or the Chair of Peter? It is a historical fact that Peter was the first Pope. Ask any theologian.
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 21, 2004.
It becomes so apparent why our schools have failed to educate the last few generations. More graduates of high school are entering the high-tech job market without a basic skill, and it's because: The teacher is ignored. he is talked down by radical students who refuse to hear what doesn't appeal to them. Like STUDY.We have this group here, about to ''educate'' Catholics overnight, --Peter was somebody else, not the apostle Peter. And, no, Catholics came out 150 years after Peter. And, Blah blah, --Blah blah. ''Just listen to me, the boy who knows everything.''
No wonder they can't get educated. They treat Teacher like a Simp.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 21, 2004.
LOLmorons...
maybe you should just look this up he?
i'm 100%¨sure about this
i study history,i'm in my second year now
i was also in a catholic school and they tought me also the same thing i'm telling here,peter the pope and the apostel are two different people,that's the truth,that's a historical fact,but if you can't face it...well i don't know what to tell you but this is really getting pathetic here
i know what i'm talking about and i know history better than you all,so better look something up before telling that it's true
-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 21, 2004.
Perfect example of the Kid Who teaches Teacher.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 21, 2004.
I looked it up....http://www.livingwatercommunity.com/saiints/st_peter_apostle.htm
It reads:
Profile
Fisherman. Brother of Saint Andrew the Apostle who led him to Christ. APOSTLE. Renamed "Peter" (rock) by Jesus to indicate that Peter would be the rock on which the Church would be built. Bishop. Miracle worker. FIRST POPE. Martyred. Crucified head downward because he claimed he was not worthy to die in the same manner as Christ.
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 21, 2004.
Also, if you go to the last URL that Andy provided, you get a list of Popes. The first one was St. Peter. Click on it. Then read about how St. Peter the Apostle and St. Peter the Pope are the same man. If you don't want to read the whole thing, simply look at the red frame and you will see where it says, "St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles".
-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), December 21, 2004.
sdqa,
We did look it up and provided Catholic references that show Peter was the first pope. Please provide references for your assertion that "peter wasn't the first pope" and that "catholics DO agree with this."
I'm not trying to argue whether Peter was the first pope or not, yet. I want to first establish whether Catholics believe this is true or not.
You have been studying history for two years now. I know you understand the importance of good references.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 21, 2004.
i study history,i'm in my second year nowi know what i'm talking about and i know history better than you all,so better look something up before telling that it's true
As impressive as your 1+ year of studying history is (few here could match that), it means nothing. Some people have studied history their entire adult lives and believe as you do and some have studied history their entire adult lives and believe Peter the apostle is the first Pope. So what. By 150 AD there had already been 10 popes. Check it out
Sdqa, if I knew where you lived, I would put this Pope Chart Poster in your Christmas stocking. I have one proudly hanging in our classroom, but it goes great with any decor.
-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), December 21, 2004.
Andy, the issue is not whether so-called "Catholics" might believe this, but whether the magisterium of the Church teaches this. The two may differ, in which case we of course look to the authority of the Church and not personal opinions. I realize that you know this and it may have been an oversight on your part, but I wanted to clarify for sdqa.
-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), December 21, 2004.
Very good (and important) point Emily! Thanks! :-)
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 21, 2004.
Oops, here is the real Pope Chart Poster
-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), December 22, 2004.
sdqa,i strongly doubt you know more about history than anyone here. even as a physics major i've had one year of general history and 3 and a half years of modern war history through my air force courses. you may be educated about certain aspects of history more than some here, but there are several resident experts in catholic history who post here.
as has been said... SOURCES. i dont buy the you know all card. even when i argue about science i ask my professors to verify what i know before posting. verify with us, please, by providing a credible source.
-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), December 22, 2004.
By the way "sdqa" sounds to me as if he's just pulling pranks. Maybee I'm wrong and I'm not trying to start anything, but he's in a Catholic forum and he's not Catholic, he's insisting that Catholics don't know what they're talking about, and he claims he has been studying history for two years and without even asking if anyone else in here has, he assumes he knows more about history than anyone else. Sounds like a childish prank.Merry Christmas sdqa and everyone else! God give you peace:)
-- Jason (Enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), December 22, 2004.
sdqa is correct. The pope Peter and the Apostle Peter are two different people. The Catholic Church claims that St. Peter is buried under St. Peter's Basilica, yet archeologists found St. Peter buried near Jerusalem. the grave had the inscription "Simon Bar Jona" written in Araimic. History shows that the first Pope was a man named Simon Magus, who was a leader of a pagan religion in which it's people called their leaders Pators or Peters, thus making him formally known as Simon Peter, or Peter Simon.
-- Matthew (mattprom1982@hotmail.com), January 12, 2005.
What are your sources for this Matthew?
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 12, 2005.
Matthew,That is utterly ridiculous! There is no record of any such archeological find, and even if there were, it would prove nothing. "Simon" and "John" were both common names of the time, and therefore a grave marked "Simon son of John" would be commonplace. On the other hand, there were not many men named "Rock" - "Peter" - at that time. In fact, none. Matthew 16 makes it perfectly clear ...
"And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 16:17)
Note that Jesus addresses the apostle by his given name - Simon - and also uses the common custom of the time of identifyling a man's father, since surnames were not used in their culture. So we know that this apostle was named Simon, and was the son of man named John, as were some other men of the time. He also indicates here that Simon Barjona has been specially blessed. Jesus continues by describing this special blessing ...
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. (Matthew 16:18)
Jesus tells Simon Barjona - and no-one else - that he is "Rock" ("Petros", "Peter"), and is to be the foundation of the Church Christ will establish. This is the first recorded moment in history that the title "Rock" was bestowed on any man, and Simon thereafter was referred to as "Simon Peter" - "Simon the Rock". In the very next verse, Jesus continues by giving to Simon Barjona, the Rock, the special gifts he will need to fulfill his newly assigned ministry as foundation of Christ's Church ...
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven" (Matthew 16:19)
Simon Barjona - this specific Simon Barjona - was indeed Simon Peter, the Rock on whom the Church of Christ was built, the first Pope of His Holy Catholic Church, from whom the unbroken lineage of Popes is clearly recorded.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 12, 2005.
Good scholarly reference for the fact that St. Peter is buried under St. Peter's Basilica:The Bones of St. Peter by John Evangelist Walsh.
This, in addition to the writings of the early Church fathers.
-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 12, 2005.
Matthew:
Your post is nothing of any proof, of anything Christian.For somebody who tells others the bible is his only proof, wouldn't it be better to believe the bible? Not anti-Catholic tracts. You're being deceived: archeologists found St. Peter buried near Jerusalem. NOT SO.
the grave had the inscription "Simon Bar Jona" written in Araimic.
But assuming archeologists reall got that idea. In a city as large as Jerusalem and its environs, there where likely scores of Simons; and plenty of them with fathers called Jona. Let's not even go there; it's so off-the-wall.
Then, ''later History shows that the first Pope was a man named Simon Magus, who was a leader of a pagan religion in which its people called their leaders Pators or Peters, thus making him formally known as Simon Peter, or Peter Simon''. That isn't even close.
Peter the apostle was crucified in the Colosseum of Rome and there were a thousand witnesses. Many of the witnesses were Catholics. We know by their eye-witness testimony the manner of Peter's martyrdom. He felt unworthy to die the same way His Divine Master had died, and asked to be hung upside-down on the cross to die. He WAS; a detail so unique it represents an exact proof of authenticity only the Holy Spirit could give the Church; to be preserved and never forgotten.
Simon Magus was a Samaritan, and Saint Peter knew that idiot, who thought he could buy the apostles' benedictions. (Acts 8, :9 to :24)--
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 12, 2005.