Dear Friends,

Our Lord Jesus said we would give an account of every idle word we speak. Why then do I so often read insulting, rude and sarcastic responses on this forum? Do you not fear God? So many of you seem full of pride and arrogance. Mind you I am a sinner myself, and write as such, but I would request that those who write responses to questions, and to other participants, attempt to speak in thoughtful, prudent and charitable tones. At times I have gotten so turned off by people's language and attitudes I have wanted to permanently check out of this forum. You turn off honest inquirers by bad attitudes.

Michael

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), December 24, 2004

Answers

Well not all honest inquirers (like me). I was not turned off when I started lurking and then posting however long ago it was. Yeah, it seems a little heated lately, especially with the name calling. This freaks some people out that Catholics, Christians and other good natured people can lose control sometimes. They want everyone to just be nice. But I don't mind a little sarcasm now and then if its not mean and spiteful, some spirited debate, but if you dish it out you better be able to take it. I've bitten my tongue on many occasions. When I started lurking and then posting, I thought it curious that some folks would sound so knowledgeable and eloquent one moment and then seem so petty the next. That's human (fallen)nature unfortunately and I am susceptible to it also (the pettiness, not the eloquence). Some people's personalities are more combustible than others. The array of personalities on this forum is interesting to me.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), December 24, 2004.

Our Lord Jesus said we would give an account of every idle word we speak. Why then do I so often read insulting, rude and sarcastic responses on this forum?

Michael, I suggest that you sit down with the Bible today and read through all four gospel accounts. You will notice how many times Jesus himself used language that would have been labeled "insulting, rude and sarcastic" by those to whom his words were directed. Ditto for St. John the Baptist. Ditto for the prophets in the Old Testament.

The point is that, unlike you, God does not call us to be sissies in our language. Sometimes strong words are called for. You can therefore continue to whine and then take the heat for doing so, or you can be silent and learn how to accept stronger language, or you can just leave until you become more mature and accepting of the ways of Jesus.

-- T11 (Trustee11@ctygaol.edu), December 24, 2004.

More mature and accepting of the ways of Christ, like you, T11? What is your name?

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), December 24, 2004.

When Christ our Lord, John the Baptist, or the prophets used strong language, they did so against hypocrites and unbelievers. I was hoping that, as a basic foundation, most of us would recognize each other as fellow believers, fellow Catholics, children of the same heavenly Father. Even when St. Paul withstood St. Peter to his face, he was not insulting. When I read the disputations of St. Francis de Sales, St. Dominic, St. Thomas Aquinas, G.K. Chesterton, etc., I don't find them using rude or abusive language, particularly against fellow believers. They didn't need to.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), December 24, 2004.

I can't believe how some in here are trying to justify their own sarcasim. Come on man, don't become a fooled by that. Jesus never spoke "rude" to others, he spoke the TRUTH to others. Yet he NEVER INSULTED THEM BY CALLING THEM "MORONS" or "NIMCOMPOOPS" etc. Jesus was not "nice" in the sense that many seem he was. In fact he spoke alot of scary warnings and always spoke the truth. But he never degraded anyone. He was tough with the pharasies because of their self-righteous attitudes, but he aLWAYS presented the Gospel in a proper manner.

Can we make someone understand? No! Only the Holy Spirit can and only God can draw that sinner to Himself before they're able to make the choice, so lets present the gospel in a proper manner and not justify our ruddness (which goes for Protestants and athiests who pop in here that have said horrible things in the past, it's not all us Catholics you know).

I'm not saying "let's be nice" to everyone, no way, but let's speak the truth to everyone. Eventualy, that TRUTH is going to hurt someones feelings but it cannot be helped, God's truth hurts and remember, he LOVES ever individual, even the Pharisies.

God give you peace:)

-- Jason (Enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), December 24, 2004.

My own two cents:

Tjis baord has gotten a bit rude on occasion, but overall, its the most firndly Board I have yet visited, aside orm Ask Jesus, which is also on Greenspun and mainly has the same posters.

The hectic holiday season, and seasonal depresion, are likely triggers, as well as th influx of new trolls here ot sabatauge the board, btu overall the peopel tend ot be nice, even to Non-Catholics such as Laurent, and David Non Catholic Christain, and elpidio, and myself.

So I woidn worry baouthte slight heat we see today, ti shall fade after new years, when everyoens life resumes normacy, and we shll be again in discussion of faith and issues in a mroe civil tone. The Trolls will lieklyleave soon, as they usually do, and we shall see fwer iritatiosn fom them.

All in all, I think Michael, you worry too much on this matter.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 24, 2004.

Michael..God bless you..I agree with you..you have a heart full of charity.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), December 24, 2004.

I think Our Lord was attempting something like sarcasm saying, ''Get thee behind me, Satan,'' to the Prince of the Apostles. And let's not forget, Peter himself said to Jesus in the beginning, ''Depart from me, Lord; I am a man of unclean lips.'' That's quite an indictment, self- imposed.

All men are of unclean lips but not all are inveterate sinners because of it. There's a time & place for harsh words. Yes, in the Bible it's mostly opposing evil-doers. But also opposing the wrong- headed. ''O foolish Galatians,'' says Paul. --and, ''are you so foolish''--(Gal 3, :1-3)--???

Nevertheless, moderation in speech is better and more refined. I think that's what Michael would like to see here. --Of course. /

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 24, 2004.

Jason , or somebody else , can you clarify this:

give you peace:)

-_____________________________________________________________-

To Micheal , I left the rcc , 'cause of tons of reasons , simple , I disagree on a lot of things with them , than so do I would be rude ??

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), December 25, 2004.

Hello Laurent!

One may disagree, even fervently, without being rude. Follow your deepest conscience, and the Good, the True, the Beautiful.

For myself, I find those things in the Christ Child. May you also see his face! May God shine on you, my friend.

Michael

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), December 25, 2004.

ey laurent,can you tell me on which things you disagree with them?

i'm just curious

cos i also disagree a lot with them

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), December 25, 2004.

I think basically we should have the same philosophy the police use “Respond with appropriate force.” If someone politely and charitably asks questions or debates ideas, he normally gets responses of equal if not greater politeness and charity. OTOH someone who comes in with verbal bazookas blazing away is likely to get a far more forceful response. Sometimes you may think (as I did when I first lurked here) that a polite query gets met with a heavy handed response. The usual reason for this is that the same person has made vicious attacks on another thread, sometimes under another “handle”.

It's true we are called to "turn the other cheek" to those who attack us. But when people distort the Catholic faith or make calumnies against Catholics and their practises, it is our duty to lay out the truth, with as much force as necessary. Some of us (and I'm one of the chief guilty parties here) get so sick of repeatedly doing this that at times we respond with stronger force than necessary. Of course our pride and arrogance play a part as well, as we are sinful men. Try to forgive us and look beyond our at times inappropriate tone to the ideas themselves. I have often been tempted to quit this forum but I'm glad I've stuck with it.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 25, 2004.

Steve,

Hello -you invited me to this thread? I see you justify yourself here too.

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), December 25, 2004.

Laurent, some say "May God bless you," or "God be with you." I usualy say "God give you peace." And yes I often leave with a smilely face :)

Oh brother, how can people honestly try to justify themselves by claiming Christ used sarcasm? Well then all of those who use sarcasm ask youself this, HONESTLY, are you truly speaking, TRULY speaking in hope that the non-believer will turn to Christ, or are you only "trying" to prove them wrong? With myself, often some in here would use sarcasm against me and it would only create a beesnest. I have responed back in rudness I admit, which I should not of done, yet when one calmly disagrees or debates it seems to go smoothly or the other gets a little challenged and even commets on how calm and at ease this preacher seems to be.

I'm not saying to please everyone, the pharisies got hit hard by Jesus because of their hypocrocy and evil hearts, yet that's what the truth will do. We are to approach such people will the truth, yet in LOVE not PRIDE. We are to preach and hope the Holy Spirit will open their eyes, not prove that WE are right out of pride. It's honestly a lack of faith or trust when one (I myself have done this, PLENTY of times too) believer is debating an unbeliever or another faith follower and begins to crack and speak with sarcasm only to try and prove what he says is the truth rather than hopeing the individual comes to Christ.

If we are honesly speaking from our heart with Gods love for the other person, then praise the Lord, yet if we are honestly only trying to prove the other wrong, well then we are lacking ouselves in faith and giving ground to Satan.

God give you peace:)

-- Jason (Enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), December 27, 2004.

An example of the supposed crimes and sins of board members would go a long way to proving a point here I think.

Of course, as many people above mention, if you show the context of a remark that stings, you might just see that it's justified. Maybe not, but I've also seen threads where people apologize. Surely asking forgiveness on an open forum counts as Christian too?

So if you are a lurker you'd better not be hasty in judging the whole site or all members from being un-Christian.

Catholics in general are a persecuted bunch - have been EVERYWHERE since at least 1770. Not a single country in Europe or anywhere else for that matter has been ruled by good Catholics in 300 years. So we have learned to be feisty and to not suffer fools lightly.

But this doesn't mean we here haven't learned to be polite even in disagreements - I think Steve and I or Emerald and I can attest to this. We disagree about alot of things - but not heatedly (always) and in the rare times when we do get heated I know both sides have publically and privately asked for pardon.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 27, 2004.

Yeah, I can attest to that Joe.

Michael, when I first started frequenting various Catholic discussion boards several years ago, at first I had a reaction similar to yours, so I know where you might be coming from.

You've got two things going on. Each one we have to strive for tirelessly and without compromise:

1. The real need to remain charitable 2. The real need to defend the Catholic truth.

That's a tough juggling act. Call it a spiritual Vietnam, because in all truth, you can't always distinquish the friendlies from the enemies. With no intention whatsoever of alluding to any one person, but as a mere point of fact: make no mistake, there are people out there that pose as Catholics seeking to plant the seeds of one or another variety of apostacy from the true Catholic Faith. On the other hand, you have genuinely well intentioned Catholics infested, often without knowing it, with varying degrees of poisonous ideas which are actually in conflict with the Catholic Faith. They need to piously work through these conflicts. Then you have Catholics who know and hold the Catholic Faith that fail somehow in the charitable presentation of it. Throw on top of this the fact that we each individually have sins, faults, and personalities that often clash.

The enemies of the Catholic Church are seeking to divide Her children with a crushing sort of vigor at this time. It is a mistake to justify violations against charity in the name of truth, yes. But it is also a violation of Truth to allow charity to come to mean "don't speak the Catholic Truth lest it offend someone". If we allow the latter, then we have yield both the Faith and true charity to the enemy.

Take Joe and I, for instance. We would violently disagree on any number of Catholic topics. He's a friendly though. I know this because he's my wife's cousin and a good man. But that wouldn't stop me, and I'm sure him, from going at it. We learn this way. We learn two things. We learn the Faith, and hopefully, we learn to live it. We fall, but we get up. We have to ask, what's real charity, what's phony, what's true Catholicism, what's phony.

But the over-arching truth has to be this, first and foremost: the Catholic Faith must be defended at all costs, up to and including one's life. That's right now, because we are the Church Militant. We fight. But later on: of the three theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity, only one is left in the Church Triumphant: Charity. Hope is no longer necessary, since the triumphant no longer need it as they have what they had hoped for. Faith is no longer necessary because the Triumphant see Him face to face. Charity persists.

Right now, though, we fight for all three.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), December 27, 2004.

Well said!

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), December 27, 2004.

That's a tough juggling act. Call it a spiritual Vietnam,

lol -let's not forget that some posters here have in reality been physically and or psychologically wounded in this 'war' by Truth gone askew.

Yes, even then in Charity we must hold to Truth and fraternally correct; however, compassion in such cases is warranted at least in equal measure.

Yes, apologies do work -even if rare as in my case they are proffered. Sometimes none see until so pointed out...

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), December 27, 2004.

In the spirit of Christmas cheer, I would like to send you all a standing invitation to have a glass of beer or wine (on me) the next time you pass through the DC area. Just send me an email and if possible, I'll make arrangements to meet you by the airport or somewhere convenient off the Blue line metro stop in Crystal City.

Peace and a blessed new year to you all.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), December 29, 2004.