ive been playing guitar for a few years, writing songs. mostly about my faith, my life....

id like to play for others. ill be playing in small bars and coffee shops and bookstores around my city (wherever they'll let me).

id also like to play for my parish and a few parishes in my area (again, wherever they'll let me). my question is this:

if i play in a church, should i always try to avoid playing on the sanctuary? my church is very small and the best place for me to play would be in the area in between the sanctuary and the first pew, which i dont think is all that bad. but what about in other churches where id have to play on the sanctuary, otherwise, i simply wont be seen?

also, my music is not offensive at all, and every song ive written offers up spiritual themes. but at times, ive been told they sound too secular or too "fun" for a church. i like to think that my music brings people to praise God. but what do you all think?

i know you havent heard my music, but do you think i should avoid playing in churches if my music isnt absolutely 100% liturgical?

-- brian (brian@brian.com), December 29, 2004

Answers

-- (bump@bump.bump), December 29, 2004.

Brian,

My opinion: although permitted, guitars should not be used in liturgical music period, but especially if the music isn't 100% liturgical as you say. In addition, I don't understand the concern about being seen. What does that have to do with the Mass? Fyi, here is Pope Pius X on Sacred Music

Some snippets:

15. Although the music proper to the Church is purely vocal music, music with the accompaniment of the organ is also permitted. In some special cases, within due limits and with proper safeguards, other instruments may be allowed, but never without the special permission of the Ordinary, according to prescriptions of the Caeremoniale Episcoporum.

19. The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.

20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the place—provided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), December 29, 2004.

We must realize the older guidelines were brought to an end by the 2nd Vatican Council. They no longer are binding; for better or worse.

Yes, in many of our churches it has resulted in very poor taste. Yet, we have no cause to repudiate what our bishops have called acceptable. I also think the efforts of many musicians in our parishes deserve respect insofar as God is the One praised and loved, however modest artists' efforts are. God loves them; we shouldn't look down on them no matter our own tastes. The good will shown here by brian the guitarist is very apparent. It would be much better if he sang outside the sanctuary, of course; out of reverence for the Mass. But if the pastor says he may serve within that holy sanctuary, then he shouldn't fear. God will just love him all the more.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 29, 2004.

Of course, good and obvious points all. I just gave him my opinion which he solicited.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), December 29, 2004.

what about in other churches where id have to play on the sanctuary, otherwise, i simply wont be seen?

What??? You WANT to "be seen"? I believe that no musician should WANT to "be seen" during Mass. I am totally in favor of all instrumentalists and choirs being in a loft at the back of the church, not visible to the congregation. I HATE, absolutely HATE, the recent trend to have musicians and choirs up in front of the people, since it distracts many from the incredibly sacred actions going on at the altar, the very sacrifice of Calvary being renewed.

Musicians and choirs are not supposed to be entertainers, things they too often become when they are facing the congregation. They should only be people who help the rest of the congregation to worship better, by leading them in singing or by lifting up their hearts and minds toward God when they sing something unfamiliar to the assembly.

my music is not offensive at all, and every song ive written offers up spiritual themes. but at times, ive been told they sound too secular or too "fun" for a church.

You are not permitted to play "every song" you've "written," but only those that have received approval by a bishop. A bishop (or someone deputed by him) must certify that your music is either "religious" or "sacred" in content, that it contains nothing contrary to Catholic teaching, and that it is sufficiently beautiful to be fitting for the greatest worship service known to mankind, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

-- (JSBach@Not.com), December 29, 2004.

You sound like a certain precious stone, my friend. A green jewel shining upon us all. Let me suggest you tune your bagpipes where they're better appreciated.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 29, 2004.

You sound like a certain precious stone, my friend. A green jewel shining upon us all. Let me suggest you tune your bagpipes where they're better appreciated.

***Eugene, you lost me here. The thread above yours stated this, You are not permitted to play "every song" you've "written," but only those that have received approval by a bishop. A bishop (or someone deputed by him) must certify that your music is either "religious" or "sacred" in content, that it contains nothing contrary to Catholic teaching, and that it is sufficiently beautiful to be fitting for the greatest worship service known to mankind, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

The above is true. A friend of mine is the liturgical music advisor for our Novus Ordo Mass and these are the rules. I for one would rather hear the music many play at the Novus Ordo Mass at a concert.

God Bless.

-- jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), December 29, 2004.

You sound like a certain precious stone, my friend. A green jewel shining upon us all. Let me suggest you tune your bagpipes where they're better appreciated.

That particular tune by JS Bach/Emerald? sounded fine to me.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), December 29, 2004.

It was levelled at a sincere, unpretentious young man who happens to write songs and play a guitar. These are apparently anathema to the purist. Or, shall we say, ''trad''.

To boot, ''Bach'' is clearly prejudiced, because he assumes the songs are ''profane'' without any cause. He HATES this or that. Merely because it's not his idea of devotion. This fellow would have detested the Juggler of Notre Dame, I suspect.

Of course, he has every right to speak his opinion. In fact, we all agree with them in part. Singers shouldn't be a distraction; and they aren't there as entertainers. But the post he gives us under a pseudonym is condescending and uncharitable. Not that I like guitars in Mass; I don't. But ''brian'' likes to play, and he should; if he's talented. He's a Catholic too; despite what JSBach might think.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 29, 2004.

Brian,

Try listening to some recordings by John Michael Talbot, a wonderful Catholic musician who knows how to use the guitar with a true anointing of King David the sweet psalmist of Israel.

The guitar, like *any* instrument, may be used to the glory of God.

As for you playing in church, that is a matter for you to discuss with your priest, not us--for we do not know your situation.

God bless your music!

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), December 29, 2004.

“guitars should not be used in liturgical music period” (Brian) Too bad about that favorite Christmas hymn Silent Night, which was written specifically for guitar accompaniment at a Catholic Mass. And I recall from somewhere that the “harp” which usually accompanied the psalms in ancient times is thought to have been more like a modern guitar than a modern harp (or organ).

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 29, 2004.

Sure, and I concurr. But let's remember the quote was from Pope Pius X, not Brian Crane. What he has to see is that Vatican II supercedes these words. I doubt if Pius X was interested during those times, in ecumenical reforms. Newer music is one of these reforms; as I said, for better or worse. It may encourage some non- Catholics to return to their holy mother Church, so it's a small price to pay.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2004.

Oh relax, anyone who's been to a Catholic Church knows that guitars, drums, pianos, flutes etc. are allowed during Catholic masses. It hardly needs to be pointed out. Its merely my opinion that guitars should not be used in Mass, and my opinion doesn't mean squat. I would make an exception however for Silent Night. Thanks Steve. I didn't know that.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), December 30, 2004.

thanks for the input everyone. maybe i should make it more clear.

my intention is not to play during mass or in any liturgical way. but i would like to play for praise and adoration. is that not also why we have churches? to praise and adore God in different ways?

i am, however, concerned with the rules regarding what is and isnt appropriate for the sanctuary outside of liturgical celebrations. in most parishes, as many of you may already know, the church building must serve as a gathering place for much more than liturgical celebrations. for instance, at my parish, whenever somebody comes to speak, even if it isn't particularly about religious themes, or if there is a large meeting of parishioners, we gather in the church. ive been to plenty of youth concerts in other churches and the musicians play in and around the sanctuary.

im glad i asked you guys what you thought. im going to take it into consideration when asking around.

thanks

-- brian (brian@brian.com), December 30, 2004.

''Bach'' is clearly prejudiced, because he assumes the songs are ''profane'' without any cause.

No, eugenius. If you are unwilling to read and think before you write, please don't bother to write. By the way, the "handle" is "JSBach-Not," indicating that I am NOT equating myself with that Lutheran composer.

Contrary to your accusation, I am not "prejudiced." I am simply "judiced." That is, I don't act based on "pre"conceived ideas, but after "jud"ging the individual circumstances brought to my attention. You need to reread brian's opening comments to refresh your memory about those "circumstances." You will see that brian's words make clear that his songs have been evaluated as too "profane." (The word "profane" is here being used in its original meaning of "secular," not implying anything about offensive language.)

About 15 years ago, the Vatican published a docuemnt to remind the bishops that only approved, "religious" or "sacred" music could be played in churches -- even in special concerts outside the liturgy (for which, by the way, no admission may be charged). The two permissible types of music include works composed specifically as for texts of the Mass (e.g., Kyrie, responsorial psalms, etc.) and works that clearly show inspiration from something or someone holy (e.g., a Bible text, the liturgy, a saint, etc.). Thus, a Catholic church may not be the site of a rock concert or even a concert of Beethoven symphonies -- not even if the Blessed Sacrament has been temporarily removed. Some pastors still do not know these facts.

Eugenius, you are too "progressive/liberal" in your permissiveness, which is not in keeping with the mind of the Church. Even after I pointed out the rules (and they were confirmed by "jalapeno"), you stood up for brian's supposed right to violate them. Apparently, you are a dangerous rebel upon whom no one can rely for advice. You have probably broken many rules in your life, and it is a defense mechanism for you to approve of others' rebelliousness, since that would help to assuage or suppress your feelings of guilt.

What a joke, your calling me a "trad"! I am smack-dab in the center, alongside Jesus and the pope. The problem is that you are heading out toward left-field, so you mistakenly perceive me as a "trad." Nothing could be further from the truth. "Trads" wouldn't have a clue about the Holy See's rules concering music in church, which I mentioned above.

-- (JSBack@Not.com), December 30, 2004.

Please excuse "typo" in address ("Back" for "Bach") above.

-- (JSBach@Not.com), December 30, 2004.

Only the ORGAN! Yikes, I would have died x 10.

Brian, talk to your pastor, and run your songs past him. Perhaps something could be used AFTER mass as a closing song.

If your desire is "to be seen" then I think you need to wait until the Lord burns some of that self-desire out of your heart. Remember, the mass is for HIM ONLY. As I songleader in my parish, I have to CONSTANTLY check myself in this area. Funny thing is, if me and my partner start getting a little too "sure of ourselves" seems like we goof up something BIG TIME! Ahh, what is that saying -- "pride goeth before a fall!"

Another avenue you may want to check into is a Cursillo retreat weekend, or something like that.

Good luck,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2004.

Now I'm thinking this is John Gecik. Maybe; if he is, he won't deny it, because John won't tell a lie.

The pedantic tone says it is. He has to teach us what ''profane'' means, what texts of the Mass (e.g., Kyrie, responsorial psalms, etc.) --are. Gee; I'm a eugenius and never knew that. Thanks, JSBach not.

I see you know everything under the sun. Now it's: ''--you stood up for brian's supposed right to violate them. Apparently, you are a dangerous rebel upon whom no one can rely for advice. You have probably broken many rules in your life, and it is a defense mechanism for you to approve of others' rebelliousness, since that would help to assuage or suppress your feelings of guilt.''

Thanks, I needed that. I guessed rightly that you were strait-laced and filled with HATE (Your word.) Naturally, to be opposed awakens even more hatred; and particularly in a forum where anybody stands up for a guitar in Mass. Because you can quote from the book. Well, so there's the main difference. There is what I think, not read from documents. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa. And after all, John, I don't know everything under the sun.

I do know something about Johan Sebastian Bach. And about any kind of music you'll ever hear. In my heart I love mostly sacred music of the past. Instead of guitars and drums, I'd love Mass celebrated with the music of the masters; as you likely would. But I love the people of God. Let them offer up whatever pleases them. If God isn't offended neither am I.

BTW; I've no feelings of guilt to assuage. Now it's time to go have some braunschweiger and a cup of Merlot. Please excuse me. Keep up your contributions, we appreciate every one. Really, you are welcome, and no hard feelings.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2004.

Back many years ago I played guitar for "folk" Masses. Late 60's. Were those tunes legit for the Mass? You don't see folk masses much anymore.

BTW I think I remember a thread where JFG, someone else, and I remenisced about Ray Repp (he wrote some folk Mass tunes). I don't think JFG had a problem with those old folk hymns.

In any event, I don't miss folk Masses and prefer more traditional Liturgical music now. I've noticed (and this is just my opinion) there are a lot of "newer" hymns written in the late 80's and 90's that are showing up and they seem a bit lame to me. Mabey I'm just becoming a hymn snob in my advancing years. Also J.S. Bach a Lutheran) did write some music specifically for Catholic Mass. As far as I know, the works were performed.

I like Bach.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), December 30, 2004.

Maybe you're right Jim. John might not be posting.

He's still welcome. Never mind that he makes some people feel unwelcome. JSBachNot is much that way, may God pardon him.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2004.

We don't have that many musicians out here "cow-land" to add to our music. We do have an organist from the area (she's not Catholic) but she helps at special times of the year. She is a treat as she is truly excellent at her craft.

There is nothing more gratifying to me as a songleader than seeing people REALLY putting their heart and souls into their song. It does seem that that is easier done with "simpler" songs. Not everyone is a virtuoso!

There is a quadriplegic who sits in the front pew every Sunday. Watching her face as she struggles successfully to worship God sometimes brings me to tears. If ever I get got up in "myself" I look to her unpretentious worship, and it humbles me.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2004.

“only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the place—provided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.”

I wonder if the authors/translators of this document realized that the traditional church pipe organ IS a wind instrument, and that its proportionate size often dominates the church where it is installed?

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), December 30, 2004.

No wonder it's not permitted within the sanctuary. Lol!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), December 30, 2004.

You cannot hope to lead the congregation in song from the back of the church unless you expect everyone to be constantly turning their heads away from the altar....

However, if you are the old-fashioned type who doesn't want the congregation singing at all, then I agree, the singers/accompanists should be in the loft (if there is one--many churches do not have them, especially when parishes these days are practically required to build the hall first).

I miss the old folk songs, although I like organ music also. Don't like the updating of old hymns with new lyrics, I don't care if the music is in the public domain. Can't relate at all to the "contemporary Christian music" played on radio stations these days. It doesn't sound any different from the other rock music, at least to me.

Any instrument, played with reverence, should be welcomed, not shunned. In our parish we have even had someone playing harmonica.

Brian, you could post some of your lyrics, if you don't mind, and perhaps some here could explain what people might mean when they make their comments to you.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 31, 2004.

I have been to several John Michael concerts. Wonderful music! But he gets permission to give a concert in the Church before going there. And he mostly gives his concert in the church building itself. Sometimes from the alter, sometimes from a platform in the main isle.

In my church we have occaisional Classical music times, and things like evening prayers with music, and sometimes chants. These are all outside of the main liturgy, and all done in the church building.

Get at least general permission, but with that, you could give a (most likely free) concert of your songs to the parish, especially outside of the Mass context.

Sean

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), December 31, 2004.

Yes, Brian, post your lyrics here, and let us take a look!

I agree with the thought mentioned above, that the choir and musicians be in the loft, unseen. We aren't at my parish, and I wish we were.

Someone above said, that in the old days the congregation didn't even sing! Wow, I never knew that. I still have VERY MUCH to learn.

John Michael Talbot is a gifted writer. Some of his songs are in our hymnals and we use ALL of them. I have been listening to him for ages -- long before becoming Catholic! I remember when I was in my 20's hearing that he had become a monk. A "MONK," I thought, "why in the world would he go and do a silly thing like that." HA! Here I am 20 years later singing his songs at Mass!

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2004.

It would be free of course. Again, my intention is to contribute to the praise and worship life of youth around my town. Protestant Christian Rock and "emo" Music is so much more popular in Catholic youth circles than Catholic Christian rock music has ever been. I'd like young Catholics to realize that they can praise God through good modern music as well. Remember guys, young people can remember an entire album of lyrics from their favorite rock band, yet they have a hard time reciting basic Catholic prayers.

-- brian (brian@brian.com), December 31, 2004.

Just want to put a plug in for a favorite contemporary Catholic musician of mine by the name of David MacDonald. He has an inspiring testimony and good Catholic apologetics at his web site too! He answers many questions raised by his Evangelcial Christian friends in the Christian rock music industry.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 31, 2004.

"young people can remember an entire album of lyrics from their favorite rock band, yet they have a hard time reciting basic Catholic prayers."

Sounds like what School House Rock was trying to do for school subjects. Go for It, and I wish you SHR's level of talent, work and success!

-- Sean Cleary (seanearlyaug@hotmail.com), December 31, 2004.

Brian, like I said earlier, check into some Catholic youth retreats. Bet you'd be perfect!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 01, 2005.