because some people were intrested about my beliefs about the bible and jesus...etc, i decided to make this post

about my personal beliefs:

i'm chinese,i was born in europe,lived all my life there and raised christian

first of all i don't believe in the concept of sin and therefore also not in jesus as the saviour of mankind and the son of god

everyone of us 'sins',but i don't think that that makes us evil,i don't think we were supposed to be perfect,everybody makes mistakes,sometimes intentionally,sometimes not,but i don't think that mistakes make someone bad unless you really choose that way through life and don't care about other people and just do everything what you want,no matter if it's harmfull to others or not

the christian beliefs are that we have to believe in jesus and keep his commands to be saved,so if there was no jesus,every one of us will burn in hell,no matter how good we were,we surely did at least something wrong in our life and for our inperfectness burn in hell,this makes no sense to me

further,there are many things defined as sin in the bible,but where i don't see what's wrong with it

all normal people know the basic differences between right and wrong,it's an archetype that we all have,some things in life can supress that and bring up new rules that are against the natural human distinction between right and wrong(like for example the army who are being taught that killing is the right thing to do and that you are defending your country that way while war should be the very last option for which our leaders should decide for and while most of the times wars get started when we don't need one or when we even aren't being attacked by anyone like the wars in iraq or vietnam or like for example the catholic priests who are being taught that it's wrong to get married while having the function of a priest)

so sin and morale are actually two different things

and the main reason why i don't believe is that i can't just believe some letters on a paper,i don't understand how someone could expect something like that from us in this world of lies and manipulations i also don't see a reason why i should believe that jesus was god's son etc...i just don't think that way and i don't see anything bad in it there are many things in the bible that don't make much sense to me and really don't seem to come from a loving father

and the bible was also put together by the RCC(who i fully distrust)so i don't believe any of the miraculous things in the bible

i agree with many of jesus's teachings and he's been for sure one of the biggest inspirations in my life,but i have more of a gnostic vision on him instead of the traditional way christians see him

many christians just keep the commands because they're scared of hell and only see some sinful things defined by the bible as sinfull only because the bible and the church tells them so,they focus on the details and forget the real thing,the real essence of his teachings was not to put them in the center of your life but to show you the way to real life,here on earth now and after this life

so i'm not religious nor i see religion as something positive(i said religion!...not faith)but i do believe in god in a certain way,i believe that there is something more than just this life,this world and these things we have here today;i don't know why,maybe because i have some personal experiences with it,maybe just because i feel a need for an eternal shelter and can't imagine that everything ends with this life

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 07, 2005

Answers

We understand. You're all mixed up and can't see beyond your own nose.

The stuff you've banged out here as a statement of your personal belief is proof that you haven't got a leg to stand on. It's just an EGO COCKTAIL.

MY version, the ONLY reality! HA! Take it with you to the mall, sdqu; and, with a buck fifty, it will buy you a cup of coffee.

The Church is founded by Christ. FACT.

We know because of her teachings, which the aposltles passed on, both by their word and by their written scriptures. FACT -- TRUTH.

We know by the HISTORY of the Church. The whole world knows. FACT.

We know by the HOLY Saints and Martyrs; who gave their lives for Christ --CATHOLIC saints. FACTS.

We know because Christ founded NO OTHER Church. Only this One. Indisputable FACT. You can't name any other one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The four obvious MARKS pointing out His true Church; She is---------

(1. ONE
(2.) HOLY
(3.) CATHOLIC
(4.) APOSTOLIC

.

No other Christian Church has the four marks. None can say they're One; they splinter into many. None are Catholic; universal, --heaven and earth; past, present and future. --Everlasting!

Apostolic? Only our Holy Church. Others were all founded by men, by false prophets, also men. And none other has made SAINTS, who dedicated and gave their lives; some in MARTYRDOM, for Jesus Christ.

You cannot name us ONE protestant saint; although a number will have given their lives for Him. They attempted to serve Christ. Many have been CONVERTED to Catholicism and become saints. We honor them. We honor and love as well the SAINTS closest to Jesus; whom protestants and non-Catholics virtually ignore.

Foremost and above all, the Most Blessed Virgin Mary. The Holy Angels and Archangels; many who have had altars and parishes named after them all over the world. Thousands of heroic men and women from the first days up to the present; saints who loved and served Christ their entire lives. They gave up EVERYTHING to follow Jesus, and to serve their fellow men in the world. LOVE was their motivation; not fame or wealth or glory. Christian love! They are HOLY in the sight of Our Lord.

THESE are all perfectly sound reasons for believing in the Holy Catholic Church, spqa. Think about them; put your ego away for a few minutes, and consider these facts.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 07, 2005.

sdqa,

Why do you come here to 'correct' others on things that do not matter? I would suggest you do not have all the answers and you subconcosciously are drawn to the repository?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), January 07, 2005.

the RCC has been around all this time just for their own profits and political reasons

-- jer(sdqa's friend) (doofykorn@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

"Why do you come here to 'correct' others on things that do not matter? I would suggest you do not have all the answers and you subconcosciously are drawn to the repository? "

well because we despise the manipulations and lies of the RCC

-- jer (doofykorn@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

the RCC has been around all this time just for their own profits and political reasons. --According to doofycorn.

Nobody would contest a thing like that; because there is no RCC (A fictitious name). But; ''profits. Political reasons.'' What does a boy of 17 know about profits? Did you make any today? Or political things. Is God a political party? Does God need your vote? (Why don't ya grow up?)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 07, 2005.

Then doofycorn cries:

''We despise the manipulations and lies of the RCC -- '' Wouldn't you know it? The liars despise lies! They think they'll manipulate this forum. But they ''despise'' manipulation! HA! Were you out all night sniffing glue, doofus?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 07, 2005.

Jerry (doofykorn)

You signed yourself on another thread as an "orthodox Christian." What gives you the right to make that claim?

-- JJ, Owner of Planet Earth, because I say so. (nospam@nospam.com), January 07, 2005.

I suggest we let sdqu and his friend provide some examples of these atrocities that the church has committed. Obviously since you kids have clearly taken a lot of time and thought to post here, there surely must be some specifics that have been bothering you? Please, as has been requested many times of you (yet you have not yet delivered) provide some examples to back up your claims, otherwise you sound ignorant, uneducated, and close minded.

-- Mike (n@n.com), January 07, 2005.

did i ever said that i was catholic?????

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

i am orthodox,big difference

the orthodox didn't kill innocent people,start inquisitions,sold indulgences,start crusades or all that other ****

-- jerry (doofykorn@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

Jerry,

If I murder someone and do it in your name, who is the murderer? You? Why not? I did it in YOUR name, even if you didn't want me to.

If I commit a crime in the name of the Catholic Church, an action which goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church, who is the criminal?

And as I asked you before, what gives you the right to call yourself "orthodox"? (No, you never said you were Catholic, and nobody asked you about that. I asked you what gives you the right to claim ORTHODOXY. Read my post again.)

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), January 07, 2005.

''. . . didn't kill innocent people,'' OK?

Orthodoxxen? Get a copy of Zorba the Greek. Nice movie about Greek Orthodoxians; and not one innocent person gets killed in it. (There aren't that many in Greece.) A lot of bloody victims dropped at the church steps, though. Haha!

I'll sell you my indulgence, Jerry. Save up ten thousand dollars and you can have it. It runs like a charm and doesn't burn oil.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 07, 2005.

Jerry, are you Greek Orthodox? Or Russian Orthodox?

The reason I was asking was that there are a few Protestant sects that call themselves "orthodox" when they're anything but.

Okay, next: You said "the orthodox didn't kill innocent people,start inquisitions,sold indulgences,start crusades or all that other"

Let's see if we can find an historian who HATES the orthodox, and get that person to write a history book. What do you think the result would be?

(Here's a hint: What kind of books are written by historians who hate Catholics? Look at your bookshelves!)

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), January 07, 2005.

Why would anyone be stupid enough to pay for an indulgence, when you can get a plenary indulgence just by saying the Rosary in a Catholic church?

It doesn't add up.

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), January 07, 2005.

Eugene, are you having a bad day? A bad week perhaps? You didn't used to sound this way.

Perhaps this forum is not the best place for sdqa to share where he is coming from, but I for one am glad he did. Perhaps we should be praying for sdqa instead of having apoplexy every time he opens his mouth. We are surely more confident in our beliefs than that, are we not?

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 07, 2005.

sdqa,

I see you posted your personal beliefs. But I am also interested in why you think your beliefs are correct. What is your measure of truth and moral good? Why should I believe that your personal beliefs describe reality?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 07, 2005.

Dear Michael:
I'm having a splendid day. You should be humorous in the face of trouble; not delicate.

I realise you're a peacemaker. Everybody has their fastball. Mine happens to be irony.

Yours isn't very bold, but you have your place here too. I would never encroach on it. I only argue with enemies of the faith, and mostly with a light heart.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 07, 2005.

Moved from another thread:

Christ's teaching apart from our salvation are meaningless. The only purpose of his teaching, in fact the only purpose for his presence on earth, is our salvation. Christ's teachings without His Resurrection are just the ideas of one more itinerant preacher. There are any number of other preachers who were killed for their preaching. But only one Who rose from the dead. Which is why Paul writes "if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain" (Corinthians 15:14).

-- (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 07, 2005.

--------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------

but i don't believe in 'salvation' i sugget u read 'my personal beliefs' by sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 07, 2005.

--------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------

The question is sdqa, why pick and choose which of Jesus' teachings you're going to believe in? If you believe some of what he teaches to be true, what makes his other teachings untrue?

What is your measure of truth and moral good? Why should I believe that your personal beliefs describe reality?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 07, 2005.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 07, 2005.

i don't pick between jesus's teachings

most of his teachings are about moral and i just agree with those teachings and are helpfull for me in my life and opened my eyes about certain things

i just don't believe in all the miraculous things that are written down in the bible

my moral is pretty simple:

do not what to the others what you don't want that the others do to you

and i have my freedom and it borders to somebody elses freedom,if i cross that line then i am taking somebody's freedom away(this is the main reason why we need laws)

so in other words,i can do anything i want unless i don't harm anyone with it

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 07, 2005.

is there a difference between russian and greek orthodox?

i didn't know that

i guess i am a russian orthodox because my father is from russia

i've made that choise because it is the church that teaches the most the bible as it is without the other doctrines outside the bible like catholics and protestants have and this church fits the most to my beliefs

i also wanted to keep this tradition of my family alive

i also like very much the christian orthodox art and the orthodox churches,for example the cathedral in moscow,for me it's without doubt the most beautifull church i've ever seen

-- jerry(took a little speed) (doofykorn@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

i don't pick between jesus's teachings - sdqa

But you're doing just that if you accept his teachings on things like social justice, while ignoring His teachings about sin, sacrificial love, and eternal life.

so in other words,i can do anything i want unless i don't harm anyone with it - sdqa

But there are always consequences to our actions (or inactions) that affect others, whether we like it or not. These can be direct or indirect, immediate or delayed. At the very least, self-destructive or selfish behavior harms those who love us most. It pains them to see the harm we do to ourselves, and living to serve ourselves means there is so much good we could do that we're not doing. I'm not even considering the spiritual consequences.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 07, 2005.

"But there are always consequences to our actions (or inactions) that affect others, whether we like it or not. These can be direct or indirect, immediate or delayed. At the very least, self-destructive or selfish behavior harms those who love us most. It pains them to see the harm we do to ourselves, and living to serve ourselves means there is so much good we could do that we're not doing. I'm not even considering the spiritual consequences. "

what's your point dude?

i don't get it

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 08, 2005.

His point is, dude-- You can't do ''anything you want''. It's self-destructive and foolish. What you should do is rise to the full potential of your humanity. The ONLY model we have for that potential is Jesus Christ. Others are dead ends and fail us.

Have you realised yet, ''dude'' what Christ is offering us -- guaranteed? Life everlasting. You won't turn that down just to ''do anything I want,'' and die in the end. Come on!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 08, 2005.

Eugene is right sdqa. That was my point.

The philosphy that you can do anything you want as long as it doesn't hurt anybody is a lie. There is no such thing. Like it or not, whatever we do affects someone.

There's so much more to this short life of ours than just "doing what we want." That will never satisfy you in the end.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 08, 2005.

off course i can do everything what i want if i don't hurt anyone with it,directly or indirectly

what is wrong with this

on what else should my morals be based on?

i really don't get why you have a problem with this?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 08, 2005.

Actually, it's not our problem. If you have no other plan but self-absorption you'll have no everlasting life.

''what is wrong with this?'' God has a place for souls who couldn't care about Him. Their suffering in the next world will be everlasting. I know self-absorbed people don't care. However, this life flies by and it's over. Then you'll see the problem that you don't see now.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 08, 2005.

"The RCC has been around all this time just for their own profits." -Jerry

Jerry, do you even realize how much the RCC has helped the world's suffering people? Are you even aware of how COUNTLESS Catholics have thrown away their lives to follow Christ? That means they don't get to go on a "vacation" or buy materialistic things like playstations or SUV's. Do you even realize how Catholics such as St. Francis of Assisi, St. Nicholous etc, have gotten rid of their wealth? Yes I said WEALTH! To help the poor people of the world. That means they themselves could not enjoy the easy life as we do but took on suffering.

And please do not reply with ridiculous commets such as "Well, why not give peple Bibles instead of selling them in Christian book stores," or "why do we have to give money to the Church if we normaly attend," etc. You know, electricity and wear and tear need money to run and be repaired.

God give you peace.

-- Jason (Enchanted fire5@yahoo.com), January 08, 2005.

sdqa,

You were created with the lofty potential destiny of becoming one with God, a member of Christ, a vessel of His everlasting Love.

Our destiny is serious, our calling very high. Our life isn't just about us individually; it is about the purpose of the God of the universe.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 08, 2005.

...but i already told in don't believe in christ

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 08, 2005.

So basically what you've done is invented your own religion, despite the fact that you don't see religion as something positive.

Christians do not keep to the commandments simply because they are afraid of hell, but because they want to be with God in life everlasting.

Find me something the Church defines as sin that you disagree with, and you're reasoning will be totally arbitrary.

You deny the reality of sin because, like all your other beliefs, you don't feel comfortable with it. Sorry to break it you, but the truth ain't always easy. Sometimes you must face the harder truth.

I'm honestly baffled as to how a man like yourself who knows so little about what he himself believes can come on here and put down the Catholic faith which has led millions of souls to the waiting arms of our Lord. You feel this, and you feel that, but for some reason you do not couple your emotions with the intellect.

-- Jacob R. (webmaster@stpeterslemoore.com), January 08, 2005.

'You deny the reality of sin because, like all your other beliefs, you don't feel comfortable with it. Sorry to break it you, but the truth ain't always easy. Sometimes you must face the harder truth.'

what truth?

that jesus was the son of god?

PROVE IT!

that the bible tells the truth?

PROVE IT!

prove your 'truth' jacob...if it's soooo true

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 08, 2005.

Prove what? What will you accept as proof, and give us one problem at a time. We already see that you're happy in your sinful existence. Don't ask us to prove sin offends God. He has made it very clear to those who believe in Him. What's the first thing we should prove; and what kind of proof would you like?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 08, 2005.

prove me that the bible is true and that it's the word of god

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 08, 2005.

Depends on what you mean.

My problem was I was a anylist.

Its nto so much the Bibel is the truth, ut contains the truth as a record. afre all the Bible is a book, ink, apaper, binding, ect...

To prove the infrmation true is simple though. look at the teahcigns, and contrast thm tot he world. its what convenced me.

Here is oen for you to try.

Proverbs 10:14 14. Wise men lay up knowledge: but the mouth of the foolish is near destruction.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 08, 2005.

Sdqa, since you are on a forum of believers who are already well established in their faith, we have have little need to prove anything to you.

Why don't you give us your nobel prize winning proof that the bible is not the word of God?

On that note, what do you think the focal point of the bible is?

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), January 08, 2005.

"On that note, what do you think the focal point of the bible is? "

good question

i think the bible like it is today hasen't any point

there is too many contrast in it

too many things that are totally the opposite from each other

the point of the OT is:be good,keep the commands and you will get to heaven,otherwise...

the point of the NT:believer in jesus,keep his commands and you will get to heaven

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 08, 2005.

Yes sdqa, Jesus is our Lord & God. Why do you deny this?

As Mr. Fischer said, this is a forum full of believers in Jesus Christ, a Catholic forum. Don't come to us and demand we prove our beliefs, how 'bout you take the time to prove that we are wrong. That Jesus Christ is not God.

I mean, you make it seem so simple. It's what you've reduce truth to, simple statements and emotions. But for us the truth is deep, mysterious, and sometimes hard to accept. But by no means are these reasons to ignore it.

I don't deny the reality of sin because I am a sinner and feel guilty for it.

Faith is not science, and not subject to simple 'proofs' as you would have it. But by all means give us some standard to go by, examples and such, that we might go by in effort to convince you of the glory of Jesus Christ.

We would happily share such knowledge with you sdqa. Isn't that what you are hear to do? Share your beliefs rather than tear into others beliefs?

What fruit is there in ripping someone elses beliefs apart yet not providing them a better answer?

-- Jacob R. (webmaster@stpeterslemoore.com), January 08, 2005.

"the point of the OT is:be good,keep the commands and you will get to heaven,otherwise...

the point of the NT:believer in jesus,keep his commands and you will get to heaven "

Unfortunately sdqa, your concept of the bible's teaching is very shallow. The intrinsic significance of the bible is Christ, who is the very embodiment of the Triune God, processed and consummated to become the life giving Spirit to be wrought into humanity in the church, the Body of Christ, as His increase, His enlargement, for His expression.

If you want to understand the nature of the bible's teachings, you will need to empty yourself of all preoccupations, and allow Christ to come in.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), January 08, 2005.

You tell this forum: '' I'm chinese, I was born in europe, lived all my life there and raised Christian.''

Two mistakes. You haven't lived all your life. (PROVE IT.) --And, you were not raised a Christian. (PROVE IT.)

SO:
''prove me that the bible is true and that it's the word of God --''

We see proof in the words of the Bible. We're given prophetic knowledge of things to come and they are fulfilled. Numerous things. These were recorded by men who worshipped the Creator; and since one of His commands was never to LIE their testimony is above reproach; it has to be true.

He told one of the Patriarchs, Noah, that for 40 days and nights He would send rain. He instructed him in the building of the Ark, before the rain had started. When it was built, the rain came; a flood.

We see many examples of this flood even today, in the strata of the earth's crust. It's not a myth.

Only God can command rain to pour for any length of time; it's not in the laws of nature. So this was no coincidence.

God also prophesied the birth of a son to Abraham, with his wife Sarah who was almost 80 years old! She even LAUGHED.

Yet she bore Abraham's son, Isaac; and the entire nation of Israel, which is the race of Jesus Christ, is descended from that ONE son, born at God's command. Every Jew today will tell you this is true, even those with no religion.

Jesus Himself prophesied. He predicted He was to fall into the hands of evil men and be tortured and crucified. He told His folowers in advance! but He also said to them -- On the third day He was coming back from the dead. It happened, just the way He predicted it.

You don't have to believe it. Be stupid; deny it. More than 500 witnesses saw Jesus alive with them, only days after His resurrection from the dead. A man who had hung on the cross in plain sight of all the people of Jerusalem; died and was buried; arose from the tomb without any weakness or convalescent period. They all saw Him.

Later on, they died for Him; taking the Gospel to all nations. They testified to the truth by their own blood. In the Roman arenas they were fed to hungry lions. They were burned alive, they were crucified. But they gave proof; it was true, even if it cost them everything. LIFE, even.

Would you suffer torture and death for something you didn't believe; which you had doubt about? Only one who has SEEN Jesus will give his life for Him. It's the proof that won't lie.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 08, 2005.

if that is all so true,why then doesn't god do any mircales now? today?

i can give you proof that i am chinese that i lived in europe and that my parents are christian and raised me that way till i started to think with my own head instead taking everything someone says as a truth

but i think it's kinda difficult to prove you all those things here on the internet...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 09, 2005.

If you didn't have a hardened heart and preconceived bias against the Church, you'd know God still works miracles; even to the present day. They take place quite obviously; all around us. We call them ''natural phenomenons''. And even greater miracles are recorded from actual observation. People are miraculously healed and converted. DOCUMENTED! Prayers are answered, which may not be documented every day. But We see the results of prayer in the world every day.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 09, 2005.

It's a fact that the Catholic Church was started by Jesus???????????? where's your evidence of the so called "fact." you can't just claim something to be a fact without providing true evidence. and oh yes... the Catholic Church really helped out all those suffering people that were persecuted, tortured, and killed for not following the church.

-- Matthew (mattprom1982@hotmail.com), January 13, 2005.

Jesus Christ did in fact, on the day of Peter's confession of faith, found the Catholic Church. His twelve apostles were the nucleus. After Christ's ascension to the right hand of the Father Almighty, the eleven remaining apostles and Mary were filled with the Holy Spirit, their confirmation in the Church. Immediately they began to preach the Gospel in public. Peter himself made more than 3,000 converts in one day; baptised and became members of the same Church. The proof that our Church was the same one is Peter's missions, eventually ending in Rome. Here he was martyred; and a successor was named to his post, who became only the 2nd bishop of Rome. All Peter's subsequent successors in the same unaltered Church are bishops of Rome in an unbroken line to the present Pope.

The chair of Peter in Rome represents Christ Himself, through Peter who is His Vicar on earth. This naturally means every other bishop in the world is subject to Peter's authority; meaning Christ. When we say all over the world; and past, present, future and everlasting, we define what is Universal; and Katolikos, Catholic, is Greek for universal. No other Church can ever be universal. It was unknown in the past; it will either pass away or be unknown and unrepresented in the future; and it will have no known ties to the apostle Peter, meaning Christ.

Not even the Bible, because that too, comes from God to Christ's only Church. Without the holy Spirit, who dwells in the One Church, the Bible too is inadequate, therefore not universal.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 13, 2005.

Fact: Jesus Christ founded a Church (Matt 16:18)

Fact: He said all men were to belong to that one Church (Matt 28:19)

Fact: He said that one Church had moral authority (Matt 18:17)

Fact: He said that Church could infallibly define doctrinal beliefs (Matt 16:19, 18:18)

Fact: The Bible describes that Church, and no other, as "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim 3:15)

Fact: That one Church which Christ founded on the Apostles was calling itself "The Holy Catholic Church" by the beginning of the 2'nd century. We know this from the writings of Ignatius of Antioch, a second generation bishop of that same Church, who was catechised and ordained by the Apostle John.

Fact: There is no historical record of any other Christian Church on earth at that time, or during the next 1,000+ years.

Fact: There are historical records both about the Catholic Church and by the Catholic Church in every century since that time.

Inescapable Conclusion: If Jesus Christ founded any Church, it must have been the Catholic Church, since there is no other Church which can clearly trace its history directly back to Apostolic times.

Your other point, that members of Christ's Church have sinned, is completely irrelevant to the question of the Catholic Church's origin. Members of all churches sin. That's why we need a Savior. That's why we need a Church that teaches the fullness of truth. That's why we need to belong to the one Church founded by Jesus Christ for all men, and not to counterfeit churches founded on human tradition and teaching an arbitrary mix of truth and untruth.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 13, 2005.

sdqa,

I have medical evidence that a large tumor on my wife's uterus miraculously disappeared after our priest prayed for her. Her doctor was stunned and couldn't medically explain how any tumor, but especially one so large, could just disappear like that. But she has the before and after sonograms to prove it and even examined the uterus after the baby was born via c-section to try to see where the tumor went. This happened within the past 15 months. And it's just one of many similar miracles I've personally witnessed and/or experienced.

God still does the miraculous.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 13, 2005.

Maybe one of us can tell me the name of a recent miraculous healing that was documented. I forgot exactly the name or circumstances, but it was less than a hundred years ago, a Catholic girl who couldn't see. She had been born with no pupils in her eyes! No eyesight at all.

Yet, she was miraculously healed and sees! Without pupils! Unbelievable; but that's what happened. Anybody recall?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 13, 2005.

Dear Eugene,

My aging memory tells me that the person you are speaking of was "healed" through the intercession of Padre Pio, but I am not completely certain. Hope that helps although I do not recall the name.

And by the way, god bless you.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), January 13, 2005.