PEOPLE TOLD ME THAT THE CATHOLIQUE CHURCH DIDN4T DO NOTHING IN WORLD WAR 2 AND JERRY SAYS THAT THE ORTHODOX CHRUCH HELPED MUCH IN RUSSIA GREECE AN D JUGOSLAVIA

IS THIS TRUE

-- PUNKER (PUNKER@PUNKER.COM), January 07, 2005

Answers

No, Pope Pius the 12th was the firts to denounce naziism, helped shuttle many Jews out fo oprpression,a nd oppsed Hitler, to the poin of almost beign force dinto armed combat with him.

harldy ee that as " Not doing nothing".

-- zarove (ZAroff3@juno.com), January 07, 2005.

Anyone recall the encyclical in which Pius (XI or XII?) condemned Nazism? It was one of the few written in German rather than Latin.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 07, 2005.

We want to know what the Orthodox Church did that was extraordinary in Russia, Yugslavia and Greece.

Up to very recently these three nations had a very hard time. Under the Nazis it was better to be a dog in those places.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 08, 2005.

I think the German encyclical against anti-Semitism was "Mit Brendiger Sorge". After WWII, many rabbis thanked Pius XII for saving the lives of many Jews in Italy.

The Catholic Church is not to blame for the killing of Jews; Nazis did that.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 08, 2005.

The 1937 encyclical was a letter "TO THE VENERABLE BRETHREN THE ARCHBISHOPS AND BISHOPS OF GERMANY AND OTHER ORDINARIES IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE" and specific rebuke to the Nazi government and "pagan" culture in regards to its affect upon members of the Catholic Church and their beliefs, education, and loyalty to Rome. When the encyclical uses the general term, "believer in God," It goes on to describe the "believer" as Trinitarian and loyal to the primacy of Rome. It had no specific comments regarding non-Catholics or anti-semitism.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p- xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html

-- Robert Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), January 08, 2005.

During my many years away from the Church, much of what I read about the Church during WWII made me almost ashamed to say I was even "raised" Catholic. I thought Pius XII was worthless. Everything I read pointed me toward coming to that conclusion.

How about "Hitler's Pope" a fairly recent book that reads with authority and would convince anyone. I can understand how people in general think the Church did nothing for the Jews and others during the war.

While away from the Church, I accepted this as true and because I was fairly agnostic, it was sort of unimportant to me. So I continued to believe this for many years. Had no reason to think otherwise. It fit my almost anti-religious position.

As I began a laborous return to the Church, I investigated the issue and if you wade through the anti-Pius XII material you will find that he actually did much to save many throughout Europe.

Since I am "html" illiterate, I can't post links to many online articles that more accurately portray the fine line Pius had to walk to save as many as he could.

One Rabbi who's name I don't recall (my lazinous precludes me from "googling and wading" to find him) described Pius' treatment by those today who weren't even born and have no accurate memory as "scandalous." People who were alive at the time see Pius as handling the situation with careful expertise saving many thousands of lives. He was praised by many, including Golda Meir. After the war, upto and during the cold war it was advantageous for communist countries and those simpathetic to the cause to add to and foment the anti-Pius bias. It was effective, and has stuck.

It also makes for much more interesting reading and sells more books. Really, anyone can see that "Hitler's Pope" would sell much better than say ---"Pius XII's Delemma." (my title, the book hasn't been written)

Ultimately it turns out he was an excellent Pope. My eyes were opened to this even when they didn't care to be.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 08, 2005.

Thanks Michael and Pastor Fretz. That's the one I was thinking of.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoop.com"), January 08, 2005.

It always amazes me how many people, even those who claim NOT to hate the Church, are willing to just lap up without question any calumny at all about the Church, no matter how incredible or at variance with known historical facts. We see this not only with events of centuries ago, but even with events well within living memory, like World War 2. Ask any Jew who lived through that time what the Church did. The most intelligent Jew of the 20th century, Albert Einstein, wrote that the Catholic Church was the ONLY institution which stood up against the Nazis. The Chief Rabbi of Rome was so impressed that after the war he became a Catholic and named himself after the Pope. Yet many people today in effect claim these Jews who survived the Holocaust are liars, just so that they can spread evil slanders against the Church. Btw recently a German archbishop who boldly opposed the Nazis was beatified.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 08, 2005.

I used to be amazed by this too, but something Jim mentioned and other things I learned in my own run ins with people who hate the Legion of Christ made me realize that certain beliefs that bolster other deep seated beliefs are accepted at face value when in a calmer mood we'd perhaps at least take them with a sizable grain of salt.

Those who hate Priests - for whatever reason are predisposed to believe all are pedophiles and worse. Those trained to hate Catholics are only too predisposed to assume the worst whenever black legends are brought out.

Some people have an instinctive mistrust of "big" things - so big churches are suspected and those people are only too willing to accept wild theories such as in Da Vinci code that evil conspiracies are afoot "really" running the show.

Maybe we all do this to some degree or another. But the Catholic custom of frequent examinations of conscience would perhaps provide a needed antidote to this.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), January 11, 2005.

It is unclear. While some evidence claims that Pius did much to save the lives of Jews, other evidence suggests that he was silent and did little to denounce the Germans with whom he had a particularly special relationship. He is quoted to have expressed joy of Germany's attack on Russia, claimed admiration for Hitler, asked the Vatican newspaper to avoid criticising Germany and ignored an encyclical entitled "Humani Generis Unitas", delegated by Pius XI, which detained the anti-semitism occuring across Europe. However, it is thought that as up to 5 million of the Jews killed during the 2nd world war were from the East (mainly Poland and Russia), Pius did not have the jurisdiction to speak out in these countries to save lives. Personally, I believe the Pius XII did not do enough to save the Jews. Had he been a hero, his reputation would not be in doubt. Approximately 38,000 Italian jews died in the Holocaust, an astounding figure considering that the Jewish quarter in Rome was practically outside the Pope's window and if you can't help your neighbours, who can you help?

-- Dee (dedoc_99@yahoo.co.uk), January 26, 2005.

He is quoted to have expressed joy of Germany's attack on Russia, claimed admiration for Hitler

Perhaps you can provide us with that earthshaking quote. I won't be holding my breath waiting. Yeah, I'm sure Pope Pius XII admired Hitler. (sarcasm) I admire Osama Bin Laden's organizational skills. Now you can say I claimed admiration for him. Woo Hoo. Pope Pius XII was between a rock and a hard place the entire war with Godless Nazis on one side and Godless Communists on the other. Read Hitler, The War, and The Pope by Richard Rychlak, and you will understand that he and his German, French and Dutch bishops bravely did what they could do.

Approximately 38,000 Italian jews died in the Holocaust, an astounding figure considering that the Jewish quarter in Rome was practically outside the Pope's window and if you can't help your neighbours, who can you help?

And the Head Rabbi in Rome was so unimpressed with Pius XII in this regard that he converted to Catholicism and took as his Christian name Eugenio (as in Eugenio Pacelli, aka Pope Pius XII).

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), January 26, 2005.

"While some evidence claims that Pius did much to save the lives of Jews, other evidence suggests that he was silent and did little to denounce the Germans with whom he had a particularly special relationship."

A: Why not look at the documents of the time, rather than the unsupportable accusations of anti-Catholic bigots sixty years later ...

-The New York Times, December 25, 1941 (Late Day edition, p. 24):

"The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas... he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all... the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism... he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace."

- The New York Times, December 25, 1942 (Late Day edition, p. 16):

"This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent... Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were lifeless things."

So much for charges of "silence". You say "Had he been a hero, his reputation would not be in doubt." Well, that's the power of "entertainment". His reputation never was in doubt, in the face of such overwhelming evidence, until an anti-Catholic off-Broadway play called "The Deputy" first set forth such unfounded accusations against the Pope. Once such rumors are released against a person, especially a person representing an institution that is already the subject of widespread bigotry, they are bound to spread like wildfire among the ignorant.

The many commendations and gifts sent to Pope Pius XII by Jewish leaders after the war in appreciation for his tremedous efforts on behalf of the Jewish people are well documented evidence of the plain truth. Of course that would matter only to those who are interested in the truth.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 26, 2005.

Bravo, Paul----- ! ! !

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 26, 2005.

And what exactly does the modern critic think that Pius XII could have done "to stop Hitler"? Italy was ruled by the Fascists - allied to Hitler. The German army was the strongest military machine in world history...and the Pope barely had enough Swiss guards to merely keep a presence at the 4 gates to besieged Vatican City!

Let's not forget that there was no mobilized, organized lay groups of Catholics in any European country at the time. No private ownership of weapons either! No independent means of communication such as radios and presses.

It's one thing to blather on as if the Pope was sitting on nuclear weapons and a hundred divisions of tanks floating off shore on some vast armada but chose not to use them and quite another to pick a fight with someone who simply put was doing the best he could given the dire circumstances.

Ask yourself once or twice how they WERE able to pull off the hiding and feeding of 800,000 Jews during war time when food was rationed?

You couldn't publish documents spelling out how to hide Jews (since that was illegal) and thus, there couldn't be a paper trail! But there was the unmistakable reality that the Catholic Church DID protect hundreds of thousands of Jews throughout Europe.

By no means were all 100% of Catholics aware of this or in agreement. Then, like today, there were those who thought obedience to the popular culture was more imporant than obedience to moral truth.

Then as today there were bad bishops and priests and lax lay people.

But given the circumstances, Pius XII and the many religious orders, parishes, and individual Catholics did an amazing amount of good while risking their lives in the process...and the thanks they get for it is historical ignorance, and condemnation for not "doing more".

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), January 26, 2005.

Not sure what Dee's motive was for the post, but I doubt Dee will respond to anything posted. If I'm wrong, my apologies.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 26, 2005.

Bump for sdqa, as a supplement to his new question that has been answered here. This subject has been covered extensively over the years.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 29, 2005.