My friend has been in Austrailua for a few months at some type of Christian Omish-like camp. There is no electricity and people all grow and raise their own food, (gardens and chickens). Yet he emailed me and told me the people there do not celebrate Christmas and believe it's a pagan holiday. He did not say why? What Christian group who believes Christ is God in the flesh do not celebrate Christmas?

-- Jason (Enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), January 08, 2005

Answers

Jason,

The Amish are a group of anabaptists (one source of our modern Baptists)who come from a fellow whose name was Menno Simons (hence the term "Mennonite"). They are a kind of early "reformed" or protestant group dating from the 1500s, from around Switzerland, Germany, Russia and Alsace.

They revolted against some of the (admitted) corruption in the Catholic Church of their day, but then also decided that since many bishops were corrupt, therefore those bishops must not be teaching the truth. (A non-sequitur, but understandable error.)

They decided all teaching should be based on the Bible (their interpretation, of course). Therefore there are some changes from Catholic doctrine: they do not accept infant Baptism, reject the Mass as being the true Body of Christ, do not look to Councils of bishops or clergy for guidance, etc. They stress a literal interpretation of Scripture, and practice foot-washing as a kind of sacrament.

On the positive side, Amish and other Mennonites stress simplicity of life, and are pacifists, which I think is very brave and principled.

They do accept the Trinity and incarnation of Christ as God in the flesh, but since celebrating the holiday of Christmas is not mentioned in the bible, they don't do that. And I suppose some of the trappings of Christmas (mistletoe, trees, yule logs) might have been adapted from ancient pagan Yule celebrations, not to mention the modern worldliness and materialism that has crept in--remember, Amish hate anything worldly, proud or materialistic.

They have Christianity, but not its full completeness. But we can learn a few things from them I think--their love of simplicity and family being among them.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 08, 2005.

I wonder if you are confusing two different things here.

Celebrating the birth of Jesus: I can't imagine any case in which someone would consider themselves Christian and not celebrate the birth of Jesus.

BUT, how you celebrate, and when you celebrate, is another issue.

Late December, and December 25th in particular, is an ancient time of celebration, with many traditions that pre-date the Christian celebration of Jesus's birth:

- Yule celebration "burning of the Yule log, the bringing in of a Christmas trees, the eating of ham, the hanging of boughs, holly, mistletoe" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule AND the link at the end of my posting - Roman Saturnalia Dec 17th to 23rd - a traditional time to exhange presents, even with gift-tags - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia - 165BC Jewish Festival of Lights - Chanukah Mid December - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanukah - Germanic celebration of fertility gods Wotan and Freyja, Donar (Thor) and Freyr - 274AD Roman Emperor declares Dec 25th Mithra's birthday - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra - 350AD (or so) Pope declares Dec 25th Jesus's birthday - see http://www.barefootministries.com/nphweb/html/bfol/articleDisplay.jsp?mediaId=2367066&nid=blog or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan_beliefs_surrounding_Christmas have different stories

Are the benefits of celebrating the birth of Jesus on a date other than December 25th that hard to understand, as the secular side of December 25th continues to grow seemingly without bound, and a general increased knowledge in Christianity that Decemeber 25th is probably an arbitrary date based on traditions that pre-date Jesus anyways?

Some argue that celebrating the birth of Jesus on an altogether different date would help (at least the strugling?) Christians separate the "true reason" for Christmas from the many other significant meanings of that day.

(And I didn't even get started on Santa Claus, either!)

*** Please be warned, that based on some responses I've seen here, the contents of the following URL may offend certain people:

I'll say it now (and hopefully NOT have to say it again): It was not my intent to insult anyone by including this link, and I am not an Odinist. I feel the information DIRECTLY helps answer Jason's question here from Jan 8th.

It is a summary of the Yule season and answers questions, such as the following, FROM AN ODINIST point of view: (a quote from the page) - Why do we celebrate a seemingly Christian holiday, "Christmas" or "Yule", in Asatru and Odinism? - Why is Yule so important? - Why do we feast so much at this time of the year? - Why do most Asatruar eat pork or ham at the Yule Feast - Why do we give gifts at this time of the year? - Why do we decorate a Yule Tree in our house? - What about Santa Claus, Father Christmas or Old Man Winter? - Why do Christians celebrate the birth of Christ during the Yuletide? (end quote)

Quite frankly I'm not sure if some people can handle such a different point of view, and I must say that a few of the responses included at that URL show disrespect for Christians, so PLEASE don't follow the link unless you have an open mind.

http://odinist.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=720 (I didn't make this one a live link, if you want to follow it you'll have to copy and paste it into your browser.)

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), January 22, 2005.

I wonder if you are confusing two different things here.

{Likely not... no...}-Zarove

Celebrating the birth of Jesus: I can't imagine any case in which someone would consider themselves Christian and not celebrate the birth of Jesus.

{well cruch of christ dnjt, htoug most embers do keep the holiday, but I htink you mean it in a different way...}-Zarove

BUT, how you celebrate, and when you celebrate, is another issue.

{Yes, the kicker... and hwen you celebrate is largleyirrelevant...}- Zarove

Late December, and December 25th in particular, is an ancient time of celebration, with many traditions that pre-date the Christian celebration of Jesus's birth:

{which brign sin the "so what" factor. The date is currently set aside for the annula celebration of the Birht of the christ Child. Its NOT rleevat rater or not he was actulaly born then...}-Zarove

- Yule celebration "burning of the Yule log, the bringing in of a Christmas trees, the eating of ham, the hanging of boughs, holly, mistletoe" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule AND the link at the end of my posting - Roman Saturnalia Dec 17th to 23rd - a traditional time to exhange presents, even with gift-tags - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia - 165BC Jewish Festival of Lights - Chanukah Mid December - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanukah - Germanic celebration of fertility gods Wotan and Freyja, Donar (Thor) and Freyr - 274AD Roman Emperor declares Dec 25th Mithra's birthday - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra - 350AD (or so) Pope declares Dec 25th Jesus's birthday - see http://www.barefootministries.com/nphweb/html/bfol/articleDisplay.jsp? mediaId=2367066&nid=blog or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan_beliefs_surrounding_Christmas have different stories

{Uhm...so\?}-Zarove

Are the benefits of celebrating the birth of Jesus on a date other than December 25th that hard to understand, as the secular side of December 25th continues to grow seemingly without bound, and a general increased knowledge in Christianity that Decemeber 25th is probably an arbitrary date based on traditions that pre-date Jesus anyways?

{as oppsoe to any other arbitrary date? we shouidlt move thigns just fr the sake of moicng them...}-Zarove

Some argue that celebrating the birth of Jesus on an altogether different date would help (at least the strugling?) Christians separate the "true reason" for Christmas from the many other significant meanings of that day.

{And they woidl be worng, it owidl be cinfusing ot have tow orthdays for christ, and do harm tot he traditin alreayd estalvished...}- Zarove

(And I didn't even get started on Santa Claus, either!)

{ You mean, saint Nicolas?}-Zarove

*** Please be warned, that based on some responses I've seen here, the contents of the following URL may offend certain people:

I'll say it now (and hopefully NOT have to say it again): It was not my intent to insult anyone by including this link, and I am not an Odinist. I feel the information DIRECTLY helps answer Jason's question here from Jan 8th.

It is a summary of the Yule season and answers questions, such as the following, FROM AN ODINIST point of view: (a quote from the page) - Why do we celebrate a seemingly Christian holiday, "Christmas" or "Yule", in Asatru and Odinism? - Why is Yule so important? - Why do we feast so much at this time of the year? - Why do most Asatruar eat pork or ham at the Yule Feast - Why do we give gifts at this time of the year? - Why do we decorate a Yule Tree in our house? - What about Santa Claus, Father Christmas or Old Man Winter? - Why do Christians celebrate the birth of Christ during the Yuletide? (end quote)

Quite frankly I'm not sure if some people can handle such a different point of view, and I must say that a few of the responses included at that URL show disrespect for Christians, so PLEASE don't follow the link unless you have an open mind.

http://odinist.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=720 (I didn't make this one a live link, if you want to follow it you'll have to copy and paste it into your browser.)

{Neo-pagans ar elargley revisionsist withhtere hisory, and to be ignored...}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUINO.COM), January 22, 2005.

Zarove wrote:

{Uhm...so\?}-Zarove

"So", when Jason asked why these people said they "believe it's a pagan holiday", I listed the specific pagan (and other Non-Christian) traditions associated with Christmas.

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), January 22, 2005.

Yes thank you Pat and everyone. Although as far as I know they do not celebrate the Birth of Christ or Christmas at ALL because first of all, Christmas is not in the Bible "You shall celebrate the Birth of my Son on Dec. 25" God never says that, and yes because of all the pagan holiday all around it. Not to mention the selfessness of so many. That's their reason. They don't celebrate Christ birth nor I think Easter at ALL!

-- Jason (Enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), January 23, 2005.

Hey there Jason and co. I'm a jehovah's witness and therefore don't celebrate Christmas, easter, birthdays e.t.c. But yes before you ask I believe in Jesus (but not the trinity- it's not in the bible). Christmas isn't in the bible(and don't you think that god would have told us if he wanted us to celebrate christmas). None of the customs to do with christmas are christian, although the churches may try to pass them off as such and I personally don't think that God would be to happy to see people who profess to be his followers prancing about like druids and vikings in his name. Especially after he said to flee from false religion. Those are my veiws sorry if I've offended anyone (just speaking my mind). See Ya.

-- Rebekah Reed (reed.insulate@virgin.net), February 04, 2005.

Christmas is most certainly in the Bible, described in detail. What is not there is a specific command to celebrate the anniversary of Christmas annually. However, the Bible doesn't tell us to celebrate the anniversary of our own birthdays either (and don't you think that God would have told us if he wanted us to celebrate our birthdays?). Or maybe God didn't mention this because it has nothing to do with the message of Scripture, but is simply a universal custom of human beings to celebrate the anniversary of their first day in the world. The fact that the Bible doesn't mention something doesn't mean we are forbidden to do it. The Bible doesn't tell us to drive cars either. Do you? Are you an American? If so, do you observe a holiday on the anniversary of George Washington's brthday? Was his birthday more important that that of the Savior of the world? For Christians, the birth of our Lord and Savior is the second greatest feastday after Easter. If you were Christian you would realize this.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 04, 2005.

Rebekah,

Do you as a JW celebrate your own birthday, or those of others? (I'm asking, I really don't know). If so, why would it bother you to celebrate the birth of our Lord? If OTOH you don't celebrate ANY birthdays, while I don't agree, at least you are consistent.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 04, 2005.

Hey Frank, No I don't celebrate my birthday or george washington's for that matter. I'm not american I'm from scotland (but no i don't celebrate burns night) Would you mind telling me paul where exactly in the bible christmas is? Is it in a good context? See Ya later guys.

-- Rebekah Reed (reed.insulate@virgin.net), February 06, 2005.

sorry, i'm back (you might be getting sick of me by now) This ones for you Paul. The whole "do you drive a car?" thing do you not think that this is just a tad unrelated? I think that god would have thought telling us to celebrate the birth of his son just a little more relavant than what mode of transportation to use.

Have a nice day,

Rebekah

-- Rebekah Reed (reed.insulate@virgin.net), February 06, 2005.

The description of the first Christmas is found in Luke 2:1-19. No, I don't see that the commemoration of Christmas is necessarily more relevant to the Bible message than our means of transportation. The only event Christ ever specifically commanded us to commemorate is the Last Supper - the first Mass. (Do you?) Other than that, what events we choose to commemorate and how we choose to get around are human decisions, with no specific bearing on the question of our salvation. Do you also have a problem with celebrating Easter?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 06, 2005.

Hello Paul,

No i don't celebrate easter. Easter is pagan. All of the customs to do with easter are pagan e.g. easter eggs, the easter bunny, easter bonnets e.t.c. Explain to me again the whole transportation idea because i'm just not getting it.

Rebekah

-- Rebekah Reed (reed.insulate@virgin.net), February 11, 2005.

i think that giving up christian faith and seeing the truth for once is one of the best things that happend in my life...many of you people made me see this...so eventually,i learned something through being on this forum...it wasen't all for nothing

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.

No, "all" of the customs to do with Easter are not pagan. Certainly some secular (though not necessarily pagan) customs have become associated with Easter and Christmas over the years. But that can also be said of Baptism, Marriage, Ordination, or just about any major event in Christian life. The essence of these events however, as celebrated by Christians, is thoroughly Christian, even if Christians also incorporate some of the secular elements of the society in which they live. There is nothing pagan, or even secular, about celebrating the greatest event in the history of the human race, the Resurrection of Our Lord and Savior. I feel pity for those who are incapable of celebrating this reality in its full Christian sense. That lessens, or in some cases completely ignores the real significance of the day - for them. But not for those who recognize and celebrate its true meaning.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 11, 2005.

I don't need your pity Paul. Thanks all the same. Also I still don't agree with christians incorporating "secular" (read pagan) customs into so called christian festivals. I don't think that God would appreciate the birth of his son being celebrating in such a way. Do you? P.S. You still haven't explained this transportation-being-as- relavant-to-the-bible-message-as-christmas idea. Run that one past me again. Have a nice day Rebekah

-- Rebekah Reed (reed.insulate@virgin.net), February 13, 2005.

Well I don't think God wants you to deny His Son Jesus Christ as "God in the Flesh," Rebekah. And if you don't want to be in "false religons" then you should abandon your Jehova's Witness beliefs. Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude and I am probaly going to start a whole new debate now on Christ as the "Son of God" or "God in the flesh." If so, begin it on another post question, but do not come in here condeming Christmas and Easter as "Pagan" by the way Catholics celebrate it. My original question was why do some Christians (who believe Jesus is God) not celebrate it.

Sdqa, you still cease to amaze me. You really do enjoy poping in and out of this forum don't you? If it has led you away from all religon I'm sorry to hear, but that's your own fault for being so completly arogant.

God give you peace.

-- Jason (enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), February 13, 2005.

Jason, are you talking about "the way Catholics celebrate [Christmas]" which we all agree is full of Pagan imagery and practices (do you have a 'Christmas tree' in December?) or the reason for celebrating Christmas?

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 13, 2005.

> "Also I still don't agree with christians incorporating "secular" (read pagan) customs into so called christian festivals."

A: "Secular" and "pagan" are not synonymous, or even closely related terms. "Secular" refers to anything that is not specifically spiritual or religious in nature - like the election of a government official. (Do you consider the election process "pagan"?) "Pagan" on the other hand refers to specifically religious practices connected with the worship of false "gods". Are you married? Do you wear a wedding ring? Are you aware that this custom has its origins not just in secularism but in actual paganism, just like Christmas trees? Do I think that God minds when we take a custom which was formerly used for an inappropriate purpose, and turn it into something that honors Him? No. I don't.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 13, 2005.

The Christmas tre isnt Pagan Pat. Tahst an old wives tale. the ancient Pagan tule log it suppoely developed form was kidnling.

The Germans invented the chroistmas tree in the 18th Centiury.

It eas a fad, but not Pagan. it caught on.

In the 19th Century, when it started arrivig i england, dickens desciebed it as "The New German toy."

CHristmas Trees arent Pagan.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 13, 2005.

The following are a few words that may help you in this disscussion.

Jeremiah 10 :1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: 2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. 6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might. 7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee. 8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.

Romans 14 :5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

-- a son (me@you.com), February 14, 2005.

thank you paul i realise that secular and pagan aren't the same but in the context that you were using the word secular i thought that pagan would be more appropriate. Zarove - Christmas trees are pagan in the truest sense of the word because the custom was invented by the celts who worshipped nature and so were pagans.

-- Rebekah Reed (reed.insulate@virgin.net), February 14, 2005.

Very strange Rebekah-- Your tracing christmas trees back to their pagan origins. Wow.

Let's all trace the Jehovah's Witnesses sect back to its origins. I'd like to know; were your ancestors in the early Christian Church working for the Kingdom ? Did you all have a Kingdom Hall in the City of Jerusalem, or in Rome or Asia Minor? Was your founder, Mr. Charles Taze Russell an apostle of Jesus Christ? Is the Watchtower magazine a Holy Gospel? Wasn't Mr. Russell, your prophet, shot to death in a jail-break? Oh, heck. You tell us, Rebekah. --Thanks.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 14, 2005.

No, Im a celt. Im of pure British Blood. I do not worhsip nature.

That said, the Christamas tre is German, and not British.

The Christmas tree sinvnted by Lutherens in the 1700's. Germans are Aryans, not Celtics, and they worshippped God in the triune form.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 14, 2005.

http://www.christmasarchives.com/trees.html

sT.bONIFACE SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN THE INSPIRATION, A cATHOLIC mONK WHO CHOPPED DOWN AN oAK tREE SACRED TO tHOR, A YEAR LATER A FUR TREE GREW. tHE gERMANS, ENAMOURED WITHTHIS , LATER COMMEMORATED IT WITH A cHRISTMAS tREE. iTS NEITHER SECULAR NOR pAGAN.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 14, 2005.

Pat I am simply talking about celebrating December 25 for the birth of Jesus Christ! Whether you want a Christmas tree is up to you. I was only curious of why some who Believe Christ is God do not celebrate the holiday.

I can care les about a Christmas tree being "pagan." Who created trees? gave man wisdom to create beautiful coloring or decoration? God did. So there's no reason why we can't use a tree for God in celebration of His son. Pagans might have used it for their reasons, but WE use it as a sign of LIFE in the dead of winter symbolic to Christ who was LIFE in the dead of humanity.

Ahh boy, there are just too many fanatic religous people out there. I suppose eating a gingerbread man cookie is "idoultrous" as well ;)

-- Jason (enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), February 16, 2005.

Pagabs didn use it thogh, thats the point...

Pagans didnt invent the Christmas Tree, thats just an old wives tale...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 16, 2005.

Jason -

You said to Rebekah "do not come in here condeming Christmas and Easter as "Pagan" by the way Catholics celebrate it" but haven't answered her question of "I don't think that God would appreciate the birth of his son being celebrating in such a way. Do you?".

So which is it?

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 16, 2005.

I persoanlly dotn care how the Holidays got Started, tis their meaning NOW that counts. Though I do think easther needs ot be in line withhte Jewish Calender, since the resurection is in lien with the Passover, but thats just me.

As for Christmas, lets not midn it sorigins, its meanign now is moe relevant...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 16, 2005.

“easter needs ot be in line with hte Jewish Calender, since the resurection is in lien with the Passover”. Not really possible, since Passover can occur on ANY day of the week. People already complain it is an inconvenience the way Easter moves around, this would make it even more unpredictable. Personally I think it would be better if Easter was on a more fixed date, eg the third Sunday of April.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), February 17, 2005.

Pat, in "what" way are you talking about? The Catholic way? You mean celebrating Advent in early December and then Christmas on the 25'th? Along with Christmas trees and manger set ups as well as maybe decorating your houses? I'm a Catholic, my family members are Catholic and I have alot of Catholic friends who all celebrate it like that (except I don't decorate the outside of my house).

And we respect St. Nicholas as well (and yes some of my friends tell their children about Satna Claus. But we do not).

Are these the ways Catholics celebrate Christmas Pat? It's how always have. If we'd listen to fanatic religous people about every jot and title there would be no days or materials GOD Himself created to use anymore for anything!

-- Jason (enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), February 17, 2005.

Jason, that is the second time you've used the phrase "fanatic religious people" at or about references to me, which suggests I'm not doing a very good job communicating here (AND makes me laugh, quite frankly). From what I can tell you and I agree more than we disagree in this case.

I'm Jewish, so have no emotional connection to the way people celebrate the birth of Jesus at all. I do, however, hope that people are open minded enough to realize the history behind some of the traditions associated with Christmas. I don't think Christmas trees are bad and that people should stop enjoying them just because it is an idea that pre-dates Christianity; not in the least. Zarove said it well: "ts meanign now is moe relevant..." as did you when you said "WE use it as a sign of LIFE in the dead of winter symbolic to Christ who was LIFE in the dead of humanity".

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 17, 2005.

Hi Pat. No I wasn't refering to you when I said "fanatic." Above all, I was refering to my old self when I was a Protestant. I know many more who still act like that saying "Christmas trees are Idoltrous, you bowed down to a statue so that means you worship it, the oriental bow is idoltrous, you ask saints to pray for you so you worship them," and even to the point of "you have a poster of a unicorn or a fantasy wizard and dragon on your wall so your comitting idoltry," etc! The same people have paintings of material things like trees or houses in there house. They also even have paintings of Christ in their Bible study rooms at Church and salute the American flag or where necklaces of WW2 soldiers putting up the flag. I'm just so sick of these people and their fanatic ways. I was one too I admit and I have seen people turn away from religon when they see others acting like this. Especialy when some religous people despise the slightest thought of Evolution and even science itsel!

God give you peace!

-- Jason (enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), February 20, 2005.

Why do peopel not listen to me?

The Christmas tree does not predate Christainity. i knwo, I know, its " A pagan tradition derived formt he Yule log".

That crap got started by Neopagans, but the logical flaws aloen render the statement made y you untenable Pat.

The "Pagans" who supposeldy used a tule log, where the christmas tree supposeldy rigionated, where Norse Germanics. The Norse religion, dispite beign pagan, did NOT pre-daye Christainity. I know, its pagan thus older tan Christainity, right? worng, the norse as a peopel didnt exist till 1000 years after christ.

so even if it WAS Pagan, it POST-DATES Christainity, it dosnt PRE- DATE Christainity.

That is fact 1 that is error, that all pagan faiths ( its nit a signle rligiooln as most tend to thin today) predaye Christyainity, they dont.

secondly, the christmas tree wa NOT seen in Pagan times. If I had a tiem machien and took you back tot he past, say, 100 BC, you woidl NOT see haooy pagans decoratign a tree.

It origioanted int he 1700's n Germany.

Germany was Lutheren then. It was a Christain tradiiton, but nto direclty related to Christ in any way. It was a popular fad that caught on, that has secular origins.

Secular.Not Pagan.

Please pelase pelase learn this...

Its terrible how we allow ignorance in our society. if its not "The King James Bibel was trnaslated out fo the Vulgate" ots " Christmas trees are preChristain pagan symbols", if not hat, id "Christainity spread by killing all the pagans", if its nto that, its "Jefferson beleived in fredom for all men and oppsed slavery." ( I heard this one wihtin the last 7 days...)

Please learnt he facts.

1: The Norse rleigion, thoguh oagan, post-dates Christainity. therefore if the christamas tre where Norse as most tend ot think, it coidl not posisbely have predated Cjrisyainity since he culture that woidl ahve origionated the custom woidl not exst tll 1000 years later.

2: It wa a german local tradition that spead though europe that dedveloped in the 18th century.

Please learnt his...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 20, 2005.

Also from wiekipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree

Excertp.

The modern custom, however, cannot be shown to be descended from pagan tradition directly. Its origins can be traced to 16th century Germany: Ingeborg Weber-Keller (Marburg professor of European ethnology) identified as the earliest reference a Bremen guild chronicle of 1570 which reports how a small fir was decorated with apples, nuts, dates, pretzels and paper flowers, and erected in the guild-house, for the benefit of the guild members' children, who collected the dainites on Christmas day. Another early reference is from Basel, where the taylor apprentices carried around town a tree decorated with apples and cheese in 1597. During the 17th century, the custom entered family homes. One Strassburg priest, Johann Konrad Dannerhauer, complains about the custom as distracting from the word of God. By the early 18th century, the custom had become common in towns of the upper Rhineland, but it had not yet spread to rural areas. Wax candles are attested from the late 18th century. The Christmas tree remained confined to the upper Rhineland for a relatively long time. It was regarded as a Protestant custom by the Catholic majority along the lower Rhine, and was spread there only by Prussian officials who were moved there in the wake of the Congress of Vienna in 1815. In the early 19th century, the custom became popular among the nobility and spread to royal courts as far as Russia. Princess Henrietta von Nassau-Weilburg introduced the Christmas tree to Vienna in 1816, and the custom spread accross Austria in the following years. In France, the first Christmas tree was introduced in 1840 by the duchess of Orleans.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 20, 2005.

Dear Mr. Chavez, I have four things to ask you. Can the truth not be found in America in the 20th Century? Do you have to go to Jerusalem to find the truth (is this a new law that no-one told me?) What Religion are you then before you go slagging mine?

Rebekah (public enemy number one, ease off guys I didn't mean to offend- Calm Down.) See Ya Later

-- Rebekah Reed (reed.insulate@virgin.net), February 20, 2005.

1: eugine is cathoic.

2: this is a catholci board.

3: This is the 21st Century, not the 20th...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 20, 2005.

Dear Rebeka,
I'm actually overjoyed at having you come here to our forum. I mean it.

This is because HERE you can come away from the most FLAGRANT deception,

To holiness and truth in Jesus Christ.

The Jehovah's Witness sect is a truly criminal deception, and brings grievous spiritual consequences for those poor souls who fall into it. They live in gross error and vanity. I sincerely hope you can still be rescued from them, Rebekah. We'll all pray for your conversion to the true faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 20, 2005.

Zarove - My religion was established in the 20th century (that was the question)and i'm sure Mr Chavez can speak for himself

Mr Chavez - thanks for the concern but it's really misplaced. I'll pray for you too. If your heart is right i look forward to welcoming you to our religion.

Thanks Everybody, Rebekah P.S. we're not a sect. :) have a nice day

-- Rebekah Reed (reed.insulate@virgin.net), February 22, 2005.

Upon Rebekah's departure she leaves proof of how the Jehovah's Witness lives under flagrant deception. They are even taught the JW isn't a sect.

Whatever else it is, nothing but sect can define it. Not Church, not revelation from God, not truth. It's a sect, ''working for the kingdom.''

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 22, 2005.

Jehova's witnesses where foudned in the 19th centiry, not he 20th...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 22, 2005.

You are a big fat jobby head. Stop slagging my religion which is politically neutral when yours started tens of wars in last centary. See Ya later, Have a nice day

Rebekah

-- Rebekah Reed (reed.insulate@virgin.net), February 24, 2005.

Truth is always politically neutral?????

Tim Kirschenheiter

P.S. Rebekah, could you list these tens of wars started by the Catholic Church in the past century? I am dying to know what crazy history classes you took growing up.

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), February 24, 2005.