ARE PUNKERS KONSIDERED MODERN HERETICS BY THE CHURCH?

-- PUNKER (GREG_PISAHOV@HOTMAIL.COM), January 10, 2005

Answers

What is a punker?

-- Hugh (hugh@inspired.com), January 10, 2005.

ANARCHISTIC PEOPLE THAT ARE REBELLING AGAINST THE CONVENTIONAL

AGAINST ANY FORM OF AUTHORITY

ALSO VIOLENCE BECAUSE VIOLENCE IS AUTHORITY

IT STARTED AS A MOVEMENT IN THE 70IES

AUTHORITY IN GENERAL IS SEEN AS THE BIGGEST CAUSE OF PROBLEMS

FREEDOM IS THE ESSENTIAL THING FOR THE HAPPINESS OF AN INDIVIDUAL

THERE IS NO FREEDOM WITHOUT EQUALITY

THERE IS NO EQUALITY WITH AUTHORITY

ANARCHY AND PUNK ARE NOT AGAINST LAWS OR RULES

TO PREVENT ANY FORM AUTHORITY AND TO KEEP OUR FREEDOM WE NEED RULES

BUT SOME RULES ARE A THREAT TO OUR FREEDOM

AND SOME RULES SHOULD BE BUT DONT EXIST

THE STYLE OF THE PUNKS IS TO LOOK CONTROVERSIAL AND TO SHOCK

PIERCINGS,RIPPED UP CLOTHES,CRAZY HAIRCUTS,TATTOOS

THE STYLE OF PUNK MUSIC IS FAST DRUMS AND HEAVY GUITAR RIFFS BUT SOFTER THAN METAL

THE LYRICS ARE MOST TIMES AGAINST THE GOUVERNEMENT

BUT WHAT PUNK IS ACTUALLY ABOUT IS NOT REALLY MUSIC OR STYLE

IS THE ATTITUDE

IS BEING YOURSELF AND NOT CARING WHAT OTHERS THINK

IS ABOUT REBELLION AGAINST THE CONVENTIAL

IS ABOUT THINKING WITH YOUR OWN HEAD INSTEAD OF GOING WITH THE MASSES

IS ABOUT HAPPINESS AND LOVE

-- PUNKER AND SDQA (GREG_PISAHOV@HOTMAIL.COM), January 10, 2005.

Punkers as a group are not considered heretics or anything else other than people who listen to punk music. An *individual* punker can be a heretic just like anyone else.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 10, 2005.

Your explanation of "punkness" doesn't make sense. You said that rules are necessary. But rules would then be authority, especially because someone would have to make the rules, and then enforce them. Anarchy is impossible, I have no idea why people strive for it.

-- Cameron (shaolin__phoenix@hotmail.com), January 10, 2005.

'Your explanation of "punkness" doesn't make sense. You said that rules are necessary. But rules would then be authority, especially because someone would have to make the rules, and then enforce them. Anarchy is impossible, I have no idea why people strive for it. '

cameron,you don't seem to understand that a society with rules and laws but without authority is possible

rules can be authority if they take away your freedom

but rules can also give you freedom

i have my freedom and it borders to someone else's freedom,my freedom isn't freedom anymore if i become a threat for someone else's freedom with my action

i can do everything i want,as long as i don't harm anyone else with it

rules should be based on this principal

somebody can enforce the rules and control if people live by the rules,and if they don't prevent them from taking someone's freedom=>so put them in jail

you can say that this is authority,but the person 'in charge' doesn't stand above anyone and doesn't command anyone and doesn't have any individual power,he just controls if everyone is being 'good' by the laws that are made,he makes freedom possible

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 10, 2005.

Is the faith of Catholics something a punker can't respect? Why?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 10, 2005.

somebody can enforce the rules and control if people live by the rules,and if they don't prevent them from taking someone's freedom=>so put them in jail

you can say that this is authority,but the person 'in charge' doesn't stand above anyone and doesn't command anyone and doesn't have any individual power,he just controls if everyone is being 'good' by the laws that are made,he makes freedom possible

Wow! That's enough to make your head spin.

-- Brian Crane (brian.crane@cranemills.com), January 10, 2005.

sdqa

You say, (if I understood) that a society with rules and laws but with no authority "is possible."

Is this an hypothesis or has there ever been a society where this has been shown to work? Most governmental systems don't work perfectly, but the one you describe while linguistically possible to write about seems awfully difficult to implement. How would it work? How would laws or rules be enforced with out someone or some group with the authority to do it?

You may end up with lynchings or something.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 10, 2005.

You'd need perfect understanding and agreement from everyone in the society. Is that realistic?

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 10, 2005.

Wait, Punker. Open up a dictionary.

"Anarchy" means: A MOVEMENT EMPHASIZING NO ESTABLISHED RULES. "Punk" means: A MOVEMENT EMPHASIZING AVERSION TO AUTHORITY

And if anarchy means no rules...wait...thats a rule.....

that there should be no rules.....

hmmmmm, i guess anarchy destroys itself.....

Dude, I mean seriously, c'mon. Just go away.

-- brian (Brian@brian.com), January 10, 2005.

no

you got the meaning of anarchy wrong like most people do

anarchy comes from the greek an-archos and means without ruler

throughout the centuries people thought that a society/place without ruler is also without rules and made the conclusion that anarchy=chaos

but anarchy itself is one big rule: no authority

so if i steal something from you brian,i'm practicing authority

if i bomb some place,i'm practicing authority

because i put my own needs above your freedom and your needs and i take your freedom away,i'm placing myself above you and i am enforcing power to get what i want no matter what stays in the way

all REAL anarchists are against violence and are certainly convinced that rules are the foundation that any society can't function without

but,just like in christianity there were people who misinterpreted or used anarchy as an excuse and as a reason for their non-anarchistic actions

http://anarchy.be/anarchie/teksten/anarchyfaq.html

i suggest you go to this site for more information and actions

i certainly wouldn't always link punk to anarchy,there are many fake punks today that have no real idea what punk is supposed to be about and don't know nothing about society and this world and anarchy

punks can be as individuals against christianity or the RCC,but this certainly isn't a rule in the movement,the whole movement is about freedom,so nobody is telling you what you should believe in or not

but most punks that i know are anti-religious(also against the RCC,because they are aware of it's history) in general and see religion as a manmade thing,invented to control and manipulate

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 11, 2005.

Then, seriously, sdqa, why do you bother to keep posting on Catholic forum? If Catholics are corrupt and the Church is evil, why do you bother? Isn't there an anarchist forum somewhere you can join? LOL!

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 11, 2005.

Or am I just confusing you and Punker and Jerry again? I'm sorry guys, I can't keep you straight half the time. ;-)

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 11, 2005.

i don't hate catholics and i don't say that they are evil

what i hate about the RCC are their crimes and false teachings throughout the centuries and still today

there are good people among the catholics just like everywhere else,but i think that they really aren't aware of the fakeness of the RCC

i really feel sorry for them that the RCC decides their fate in many aspects and gives them false ideas

i really don't think that it's very productive that people blindly rely on an institution that caused so many problems,that killed so many people,used religion to manipulate and gain big profit and that was supposed to be based on the teachings of a man who gave his life fighting against these kinds of things

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 11, 2005.

So, if the Church which has consistently preached the same unchanging doctrine from the time of Christ until the present day is giving people "false ideas", which one of the thousands of recently formed, conflicting, contradicting manmade sola scriptura churches would you recommend to give me the "right ideas"? And why would you consider that one more authoritative than the thousands of others?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 11, 2005.

Yes, sdqa, is there any religion or group you would associate with? Or are you the only person who knows the truth?

And--I repeat--why do you keep on posting here? You seem to have a crazy obsession.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 11, 2005.

Lies, scandals, and urban legends are very often more interesting than the truth, and they're much more fun to believe, especially when there is no scandal in the truth, and the lies are about something that doesn't affect us directly.

It's just like listening to really juicy gossip about other people. In fact, that's exactly what it is.

For example, the Catholic Church. Sdqa is not a Catholic, and would much rather believe the whole pile of garbage he's "learned" about the RCC, than learn the truth and, Heaven forbid, realize that the RCC isn't the horrible monster he's been mislead into believing it is.

When you're young, you'd rather believe a good scandal than the truth, even if the scandal is a lie. When you grow up, truth becomes the greater priority because life has taught you how extremely important truth is, and you become much more willing to let go of the falsehoods you once held so dear.

All we can do for now is to continue telling Sdqa the truth, even though he won't believe right now. He will one day.

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), January 11, 2005.

i must say, sdqa and punker and all the others in sdqa's multiple personality seem to be on this forum to get the attention they aren't getting from their peers at home. punker poses a question and it gets answered, only for him (or her)to give us a lecture. it's a trick; it's a way to show off how "cool" he is because he believes in certain things that go against the norm.

anarchy rocks!!! woo hoo the status quo is evil!!! woo hoo catholics are conspiring to ruin your lives by taking away your right to sin!!! woo hoo

how can i put this more plainly...

GROW UP

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 11, 2005.

my religion is called anarchy :)

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 11, 2005.

Punker/sdqa,

Do you reject God's authority? Do you reject those to whom God has given authority here on earth (e.g., Church and Civil Governments)? If you can answer 'yes' to either question, then 'yes' you would be considered a heretic.

Christians believe that God is in total authority over us and we submit our lives to His Lordship. He places the Church to govern our spiritual journey and civil governments to govern our material journey. We voluntarily surrender our will and purpose for our lives into His hands and ask that He lead us in His perfect will for our lives. In addition, we recognize and submit to the authority He has placed in the Church here on earth and promise to obey the civil government as good citizens. That is the Christian walk in life.

Now, that said, whether or not one acknowledges God's authority, it's there. He the Creator and gets to make and enforce the rules for everyone, even if they don't want it. If someone rejects God and His authority, it's doesn't change the fact that you'll ultimately still come before Him to be judged according to the rules He created and to be punished accordingly.

Wisdom begins by recognizing God and fearing His judgement.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 11, 2005.

i do not reject god and god hasn't the same 'authority' as our leaders,he gave us freedom instead of taking it away

'Do you reject God's authority? Do you reject those to whom God has given authority here on earth (e.g., Church and Civil Governments)? If you can answer 'yes' to either question, then 'yes' you would be considered a heretic.'

god didn't give authority to the governements nor the church,the governements are ******* up this world

and you say that you are non-catholic,which church do u mean then david?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 11, 2005.

I would at this time like to refer to the book of romans

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but God. the powers that be are ordained of god. Whosoever therefor resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of god and that resist shall recieve to themselves damnation. (Romans 13:1-2

But i forgot that sqda here doesn't believe that jesus is the son of god so that would make the NT lies

anarchist are just pawns for the communist party...EDUCATE YOURSELVES

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.

and you are a pawn of illusions

anarchists have nothing to do with communists

and i am more educated than you,you don't even know the history of you own church

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 11, 2005.

kat, oh hell no, you're not busting out with the conspiracy tripe. just kidding. it is true though, everyone who thinks that they are somehow "not a part of of the system" are actually a part of it. remember high school? the outcasts were ones who didn't want to be a part of a clique but in uniting with each other, they became their own clique? ha ha ha

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 11, 2005.

SDQA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wake up. The term communist does not refer to the Red Commie Bast*rds of Russia any longer. It refers to the people in the world who are using their power to make the world one big communist nation under the guise of socialism and communitarianism and now they're even using christianity. they employ people like YOU who think that you can make the world an anarchy. unfortunately, if half of the world wanted anarchy, the commies in power would appeal to the other half of the world that in order to stop anarchy, you should accept their brand of communism whether it's socialism or globalism or whatever name they label it. so in essense, people who try to undermine the authority that already axists, only help the commies.

-- Rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 11, 2005.

oh wise and so educated sqda why dont you respond to my bible quote???? hmmmm? oh yeah thats right it proves you dumb

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.

the communists aren't the problem

the problem lies in american politics and american society that makes that kind of politics possible

go watch fahrenheit 9/11 and learn something

cos i'm not gonna post everything here that is wrong with society and the politics of bush & co

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 11, 2005.

You have just proven my point. It is a know fact that the further left you are the mmore communist you are. For you to take in that load of bull from michael moore, it just shows that you are a mindless drown. Why don't you go join the rent-a-mob and leave this board alone

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.

as if the whole world is in chaos cuz of bush...

look sdqa, the problem is a lot bigger than bush. in fact, it's possible that bush is a part of the commie agenda. his father AND clinton wanted a one world government. is bush different from his father? well, he hasn't come out and said that he wants a one world government but it is possible that he's hiding behind his christianity. the whole america thing, the bush thing, it all doesn't matter anyway. we're not in a battle against flesh and blood....

for our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places." Eph 6:12

-- Rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 11, 2005.

wait a sec

are you for george w bush and co?

do you believe all this terrorist ****?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 11, 2005.

terrorist ******??????? What was 911 just a media ploy to get us to go to war??? Why son't you try reading a book by someone who is actually educated in more that just making movies. You seem to sware by a man who would like to abolish the electoral college...just another step towards communism. Bottom line....you have no idea what you are talking about, you spew out this ignorance and you have no idea what you are talking about. Why don't you read up on things before you spit all over it. I just gave you a direct quote from the bible and you just change the subject like you never read it. Answer for your ignorance!

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.

rent-a-mob...

barrington, illinois... a quiet, peaceful suburb of chicago... home of the free and of the rich... very conservative.... months ago it was home to a little disturbance which made the 4 o'clock news... it was a very liberal cause that these folks were protesting, ironic though... the people were dressed pretty shabbily and like i said, barrington is VERY conservative... those michael moores of the world who push their liberal agenda down out throats but who have to hire rent-a-mob to show the public that the liberal causes are filled to the brim with volunteers... BULL-oney.

rent-a-mob exists, it's peopled with young ones who like to make $9 an hour to yell and chant and hold picket signs. i should know, my cousin had a job with rent-a-mob. don't believe all the liberal lies SDQA.

-- Rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 11, 2005.

SDQA, from my response, how did you get the impression that i was FOR bush and co? it seems as though you ARE a bit pig headed

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 11, 2005.

when will you answer for you insulance HEATHEN!

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.

sdqa

Are there any examples of political systems where anarchy has worked? If not a political system, then any examples that would support anarchy as a workable alternative to the various governmental systems we've seen over the centuries? Anarchy in itself is nothing new or untried. Humans do things over and over.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), January 11, 2005.

every single rebellion to be anarchy has resulted into a communist state. We have the internet, plenty of historical information right at hand....look it up....proove me wrong

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.

i will give you concrete examples jim,but now i really can't,it's late here and i'm kinda down and very tired

kat & 'co' u really think that the governement cares about you he?

sure osama attacked the usa,nobody could see 3 planes flying in a totally wrong direction and crashing...

didn't tha war in iraq made the intentions and the good will of the us gouvernement clear?

pleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaseeeeeeee

save me from this ****

'i believe in lepracauns and elves','policemen are our friends','osama attacked the usa'...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 11, 2005.

and i prefer to be called heretic instead of heathen

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 11, 2005.

And you are still avoiding that fact that i prooved you dumb

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.

SDQA we're not saying that the government cares about us, we're saying that according to you anarchy is the answer, but according to us, anarchy plays into the commies hands. i would rather live in a greedy capitalist state where charity is volunteered as opposed to a communist (socialist, globalist, one world, communitarian) state where the government "volunteers" you. anarchy only results in crap even though the theory of anarchy might be enticing to you.

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 11, 2005.

Sdqa says

"and i am more educated than you,you don't even know the history of you own church"

Sdqa, who knows more? The one who knows just one truth, or the one who knows a billion lies?

Education is about how much truth you know, not how many lies you believe.

Try real hard to get this into your head, Sdqa: You know NOTHING about the CATHOLIC CHURCH!!! You are NOT EDUCATED on this subject!!!

Yes, we do know the history of our Church. You could too, if you weren't so incredibly gullible, believing every stupid horror story you hear. Poor kid, I feel sort of embarrassed for you.

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), January 11, 2005.

Hi Punker Greg, my 23 year old is an anarchist too! He is a very interesting fellow. You would probably get along real well with him.

I see some of the same attitudes in you that I see in him, and "they ain't all bad." I see in my son a very real frustration with the state of the world. I see in my son the very real fear of the powers that be in our world, corrupt as they are. I see that his heart is tender towards people, and that he aches for the poor and the downtrodden. (I am proud that he works with the disabled and handicapped)

But do you know what, Punker Greg, whilst steeping himself in the knowledge of world governing powers and politics, and studying the writings of some great anarchists before him, and looking at the way our world is going, and the Anti-Christ sentimentality that pervades our culture and around the world, he has come to see something that he wasn't looking for -- the world hates CHRIST! The political power structures hate Christ! The world and it's players are coming into a season of great rebellion against CHRIST! Why is that? Because He is coming again, and when He does, He is coming with a sword!

Nothing has changed in 2,000 years. The world mocks Christ. They despise his sufferings. They joke and scorn the Lord's passion on the cross. They shake their fists and scream out "We want Barabbas! We want Barabbas! We want BARABBAS!" They have chosen the dark one.

So there is a sinister power in this world, Punker Greg, and he is the dark lord of this age. Just be careful that you don't align yourself with this rebel . . . because his days are coming to an end!

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 11, 2005.

Hi Gail! Excellent post my friend. As you know, the corruption of governments and the evil nature of man is the reason this world will ultimately be destroyed by God and made into a new creation with Jesus as the reigning King. And until then, the wheat will have to grow up with the tares. I can understand your son's and sqda's anger at the state of the world and want to change things, but so do we, that's why Jesus told us that we're aliens to this world with our citizenship in Heaven. Only through Christ can we make things right with ourselves and ensure an eternal life under the Lordship of the eternal King who rules forever and ever.

Kat, thanks! That's exactly the scripture verse I was going to quote in response to sqda. What sqda doesn't realize is that like people, whom God has given free will and can reject God's ways and remain in sin, governments are subject to the same free will and susceptibility to corruption and sin. I agree with sqda that the world's governments are indeed very messed-up and not worthy of our total allegiance - not one of them - yet we have to anyway, because without our governments, anarchy would reign and despite the naivete expressed here about anarchy, it would be utter madness. And a temporary madness at that, because the strong will always rise to power and begin to exercise authority. It's human nature. It's the same madness that caused God to wipe the slate clean with Noah and will again in the end when Christ Returns to begin things all over again.

sqda, the "Church" I was referring to was the universal Body of Christ, all people who are true disciples of Jesus no matter what denominational label they may wear. We are all part of the same Church and Family even if we don't always admit it or act like it. There are many natural families here on earth that exhibit the same dysfunctional behavior.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 11, 2005.

KAT, don't mooch anymore verses off me, i'm a glory hound!

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 11, 2005.

Okay RINA pointed me in the right direction....even though if i wanted to i could have found it myself

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.

how can you find out for yourself if you don't read the bible? you just like to rely on your bible hound friend cuz you're lazy.

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 11, 2005.

jesus loves you.......jesus loves you

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 11, 2005.

Hey David,

That's the same conclusion I came to. All governmental systems are imperfect and even corrupt, but they serve a purpose -- at least temporarily!

That dysfunctional thing you said was a great analogy. All Christians are at least 1st cousins or 2nd cousins, but we squabble and fight like pestering little brats sometimes. And for what? Nuttin' honey, absolutely nuttin'!

Punker Greg, my heart really does go out to you. Your generation has some really tough tough issues to deal with! My prayers to you!

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 12, 2005.

you probably don't understand what anarchy means;i'll say it in another way: direct democracy where the people govern their country,where the people choose the laws and political action that should be undertaken,where all people are equal and free and one's freedom reaches to one other's freedom and laws are needed to cleary draw these borders

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 12, 2005.

'sqda, the "Church" I was referring to was the universal Body of Christ, all people who are true disciples of Jesus no matter what denominational label they may wear. We are all part of the same Church and Family even if we don't always admit it or act like it. There are many natural families here on earth that exhibit the same dysfunctional behavior.'

this is the true interpretation of church that i tried to explain to the catholic on this forum and that jesus never talked about the RCC nor established it as they claim....

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), January 12, 2005.

"direct democracy where the people govern their country,where the people choose the laws and political action that should be undertaken,where all people are equal and free and one's freedom reaches to one other's freedom and laws are needed to cleary draw these borders"

I understand what the goal is, but it's a utopia of a sort, an unreachable dream. Human nature won't let it happen. You still have to establish authorities among the democracy to create, adjudicate and enforce the laws. And once the laws are in place, the laws and those who are responsible for maintaining them become the authority. It just can't happen any other way. The U.S. is the closest thing we have to that dream you seek, which is why I'd never move to a different country. We have chosen the laws and how to enforce them, we do it by electing representatives to speak on our behalf. It couldn't happen any other way. That doesn't mean I, individually agree with all of the laws. In my opinion, abortion should be illegal because it murders an innocent child (which means the mother's freedom has crossed the border of her child's freedom and snuffed out the child's life). And it can even be said that the majority of the people in this nation agree with me on that, they also don't support abortion, but the law doesn't change by popular vote and it can't work that way. Otherwise the majority (the strong) would always crush the minority (the weak). Authorities are in place to (in theory) ensure that the strong behave themselves and the weak are afforded equal opportunities and justice.

With respect to the Church Jesus established, Jesus never established a denomination called the Roman Catholic Church. All of the Churches started by the apostles in the various cities across the earth were interrelated into a single "universal" Church, which is what the term "catholic" means. There were no denominations, just a single entity. About 1056 AD, disagreements between the leaders of the Church caused a split in the Church. Now there were 2 separate entities, both of which were started by the original apostles. In order to differentiate themselves, labels were needed. The East took on the label "orthodox" and the west took the label "catholic". That was just the beginning of the disagreements, but my point is that when a Catholic on this forum says that Jesus founded the Catholic Church, he/she is right. All Christians have the same heritage/forefathers even if we wear different labels now.

And Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, did establish an authority structure within the Church - Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, Evangelists, and Pastors were leadership roles for the universal Church as were bishops and deacons for the leadership of each local representation of the Church. The Spirit taught us to follow and obey the authorities He established.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 12, 2005.

SDQA

How do you plan to enforce your Anarchist Ideology? With attrition, dominance, violence, chaos, civil disobedience, laws,......how?

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 12, 2005.

> "With respect to the Church Jesus established, Jesus never established a denomination called the Roman Catholic Church."

A: That's right, on two counts. First, the Church established by Jesus Christ was initially known simply as "the Church", however history reveals that the Church He founded adopted the name "the Holy Catholic Church" before the end of the first century, and has retained that name ever since. Secondly, you are right in stating that Jesus never established a denomination, since a denomination, by definition, is a group which has broken away from a pre- existing group, rejecting their former identity. Denominations are manmade traditions, while the Church is divine in origin.

> "All of the Churches started by the apostles in the various cities across the earth were interrelated into a single "universal" Church, which is what the term "catholic" means. There were no denominations, just a single entity."

A: Right again. And it remains exactly so today. The local churches in various cities across the earth (called "dioceses") make up a single universal Church. There are no denominations within the universal Church, just a single entity. There are also thousands of manmade churches which are no longer part of the unified entity. These are called "denominations" because they have rejected their original identity as members of the one Church founded by Jesus Christ for all men.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 12, 2005.