I guess this question is directed toward those who have formal knowledge on this subject and not simple, albeit well-intentioned. conjecture.

Is there a formal process to severe one's ties with the Catholic Church?

I am not talking about simply stopping attendence at Mass or ceasing receiving the Sacraments.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), February 10, 2005

Answers

Probably the most effective and scandalous way possible is to hang around a Catholic bulletin board and bad-mouth our holy church. Feel free to take a hike you proud, self-absorbed, little child.

When you want to grow up and start acting like an adult, your Saviour and His church will be happy to take you back. We do this all the time...no matter how bad your previous behavior has been.

See ya!

-- Pat Delaney (patrickrdelaney@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.

Wow, now that's grace. Can't imagine why anyone would want to get away from an attitude like that.

Karl, I don't think there is anything formal needed apart from having the courtesy of speaking to your priest about it in person, especially if you were involved in church activities. As a shepherd, he would probably like to know what happened so he can pray for you.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 10, 2005.

Yes. It's a little severe...and Karl needs it, his presence here with his current attitude is a detriment to the community.

-- Pat Delaney (patrickrdelaney@yahoo.com), February 10, 2005.

Dear Karl,

It sounds like you've been going through a lot of soul-searching. Was someone you know abused by a priest or something? If so, my heart goes out to you. Just know that Christ is with His Church even when there are some rotten shepherds.

In answer to your question, perhaps you could write a letter of resignation to your parish priest or bishop. I don't know Canon Law though.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), February 10, 2005.

karl are you leaving the catholic church?

if you are,i really think you are doing the right thing

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 10, 2005.

Karl can leave the Catholic Church today by committing one mortal sin. (Like spqa.) That's it. He'll just go to hell forever, (and with spdq) with the indelible mark of his baptism all that remains. His baptism is something that never goes away. It's just shot down by mortal sin. Worthless.

Here's a shot in Karl's arm, instead: In the last minute of your life, with God's grace; you and any fallen-away Catholic have the chance to ask forgiveness of Him for your failure to keep the faith. For the SIN of going independent of the Church and the Holy Gospel. Because you'll always be a Catholic. Nothing takes that from you. Sin damns bad Catholics too; not just the other brands of sinner. Leaving the Church for spite is a grave sin. We hope you receive the grace of repentence and final perseverance, Karl.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 10, 2005.

euegene...you hypocrite...if your church is telling that there is no salvation outside of it...than i think that tells us all about how 'great' and 'good' your church is...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 10, 2005.

Just imagine, Karl: Of such is your fan club; rooting for you to quit the Catholic Church. They sniff glue and come here to give spiritual advice. You listen to sdqa; hear?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 10, 2005.

Please note that in answering this question I do not in any way want to encourage or endorse that anyone leave the Catholic Church.

Canon 1117 of Canon Law implies that it is possible for a baptized Catholic to leave "the Church by a formal act of defection." but does not state exactly what constitutes that formal act.

Committing a mortal sin certainly does _not_ constitute a formal act of defection (as was suggested in an above response).

For some ideas on what would be a formal act of defection from the Catholic Church, I will quote part of a response from _This Rock_ magazine published by Catholic Answers:

"While what is really needed here is an "authentic interpretation" by Roman authorities as to what constitutes a formal act of defection, a few things seem clear: (1) merely marrying outside the Church does not by itself count as a formal act of defection, and such a person would still be considered Catholic under canon law (albeit perhaps a "bad" Catholic and certainly one in an invalid marriage); (2) mere attendance at the services of another denomination, even if over a long period of time, does not constitute a formal act of defection from the Church; and (3) the failure to practice one's Catholic faith, even over a long period of time, does not constitute a formal act of defection.

"That said, it is generally accepted that formal registration in another denomination, especially when coupled with support or work for that denomination and extended participation in its religious services, does constitute a formal act of defection from the Catholic Church. For that matter, a public declaration of defection from the Church, under otherwise credible circumstances, might well constitute a formal act of defection, since registration in another denomination is not strictly required for defection to take place. In any case, though, since Catholic baptism establishes a canonical presumption of Catholic affiliation, canonical proof of defection from the Church must be produced to overcome that presumption."

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9806qq.asp (remove spaces if necessary)

So formally joining and participating in another church, or a public declaration of defection (perhaps in writing to one's priest or Bishop) appear to be two ways to formally leave the Catholic Church.

-- Fr. Terry Donahue, CC (terrydonahue@usa.net), February 10, 2005.

'Just imagine, Karl: Of such is your fan club; rooting for you to quit the Catholic Church. They sniff glue and come here to give spiritual advice. You listen to sdqa; hear? '

i sniff glue...?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 10, 2005.

Only the good stuff, spqa.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 10, 2005.

Karl..I was going to say that "all I can offer to you is my prayers"..but then that sounds as if prayer is something of little value..so I will rephrase..

I am praying for you..

and I am also praying for those who have lost the ability to be charitable.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 10, 2005.

Dear Lesley:
While you pray for Karl and me; the guy without charity, find a minute to pray for this one too: -- ''euegene...you hypocrite...if your church is telling that there is no salvation outside of it...than i think that tells us all about how 'great' and 'good' your church is...'' sdqa. I pray for him and other lost sheep. Really; I have to.

And if you would just remember: I'm the one in this forum attacked by elitist Catholics because of expressing hope some souls in invincible ignorance might yet meet us in heaven --against all odds. Ha ha! They hate me on either side. Catholics as well as anti-Catholics. (Except for Tiny, anyway. Thanks, Tiny!)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 11, 2005.

Remember Eugene,

I do not hate you. Never have. I know how much your faith means to you and you have really never shown contempt for me, as others have. Thanks. And thank all for the prayers, sincerely.

Karl

-- karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), February 11, 2005.

A French-Canadian, friend of mine, once told mi that it is customary in his country when someone intends to leave the Church he makes the sign of the Cross backwards while saying at the same time "Je me debatisse" (I take off my Baptism). Of course we believe that Baptism gives us the "character" (a seal that marks us for all eternity as sons of God....) and that it is impossible to delete. So it seems that while you may "renounce" the Church it would be impossible for you to take away your Baptismal character. God will continue to work on you through this sign of His presence.... and sometime you'll come back home ...

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), February 11, 2005.

it doesn't mean if he leaves the church that he isn't christian anymore...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.

SDQA

What is your angle here and there? You are like a little rabbit that pops up out of different holes in the ground.

Have you found the resources to get rid of "fundies" yet? Come on guy. If you are gonna call Eugene a hypocrit, let's get all the facts straight.

Eugene is one of my heroes! So, is John Gecik. Yes, they are rough and tough. Maybe, that's what it takes to get you on the right path, SDQA.

Hi Eugene. I'm the least of the soldiers, but I try.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 11, 2005.

You're a fine man, rod. We always communicate well. That's all that really matters in this kind of meeting; Say what you believe with fire. Try to love everyone; but don't expect to be loved by them all. What does that matter in this life? This is all passing.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 11, 2005.

eugene,you are a total idiot

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 11, 2005.

Que Dios te bendiga, Eugene.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 11, 2005.

You know; sometimes I AM an idiot. (When I think this dope is going to be serious and learn something. Then I'm an idiot.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 11, 2005.

sdqa..

Eugene may occasionally lose his temper..he may even occasionally have a lapse of charity..he may, because he is as human as the next guy, have other failings, but an "idiot"? No way. Eugene is passionate about his faith,.something someone who has no faith at all cannot possibly understand.

All through the history of Christianity there have been people such as Eugene and people such as yourself. One who defends the faith and one who seeks to belittle it. I do have to caution you sqda..history is also replete with those who USED to belittle the faith and suddenly became strong believers..it usually happened after they kept hanging around staunch defenders of the faith, calling them names. Funny how God works in those mysterious ways of His.

So keep hanging around sqda..maybe it's God's plan for you to become one of those converts who used to be one of those who hated His Church so violently..

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 11, 2005.

it doesn't mean if he leaves the church that he isn't christian anymore...

it doesn't mean if he leaves the church that he isn't human anymore...

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), February 13, 2005.

What it means is that if he leaves the Church he abandons the fullness of truth for a watered-down manmade tradition loosely based on Christianity, but objectively semi-Christian. He may still be "fully Christian" in intent and purpose, but becomes de facto partially Christian in following a mixture of the teachings of Christ and modern traditions of men.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 13, 2005.

that may be your opinion paul m,but that's not the truth...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 13, 2005.

sdqa...It is the truth.

And Karl, I hope and pray that you will remain with the One True Church. I fervently believe that if you pray often and study both sides, you will remain a Catholic.

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), February 13, 2005.

Karl isn't ever leaving the Church. He has a agrievance against our clergy, not the Catholic faith. In the last hour of his life Karl may repent and confess the sins of his life; as we all can.

I'd like one word with my friend Lesley; on the subject of christian charity.

I never fail in charity in this forum, Lesley. nor lose my temper, either. What I am is consistent day and night. I defend the truth; therefore the faith. But charity doesn't have to take the form of ''One little blueberry muffin, for each of us. Be nice, children.'' Come on!

We sometimes meet crude and offensive folks here, Lesley. They deliberately bait us, who don't fall for their lies.

I never oppose the few of us Catholics here who take the high road; pleasantly schmoozing with guys like John Smith or sdqa. It takes all kinds. I appreciate your sincere contributions to the cause.

Do we need for everybody to lash out against the devil? Cutting him and his minions NO slack??? No-- just somebody who cares about the Church. His/her contribution carries weight too. Somebody can be here to fight fire with fire; as the rest of our Catholics offer cheerful conversation, holding hands with an offender.

Jesus Christ was charitable, wasn't He? We know he was, in his lifetime; and they crucified Him for it. That's all right. We know why He gave them the pleasure. To suffer for US; even for sdqa and Laurent LUG. But once or twice Jesus went ballistic, friends. He kicked some butt. --Here's His word to us, on the question of charity--

''Do not give to dogs what is holy, neither cast your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet and turn and tear you.'' (Matt. 7 :6) He referred to little jerks like sdqa; didn't He? Or, maybe not. He said just before that: ''For if you forgive men their offenses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you your offenses. But if you do NOT forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offenses. (Matt, 6:14) I know at the end of each day I forgive whoever has cursed me. Some might not forgive me for stepping on their toes. I offer my prayers for them too; not just for friends.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 13, 2005.

I would be hard pressed to find a reason to reject the teachings of the Catholic Church, as Eugene correctly said. But something must be done to bring the Catholic hierarchy to confront, directly and unmistakeably, those in their pews who are guilty of abandoning their marriages and then because they sleep with their lovers and get pregnant and have children with them. so the Catholic Church allows these unrepentant criminals(that is indeed what they are) who simply because they decide not to have sex with thier lovers are allowed to remain with them.

This, if it is a teaching of the catholic Church, is ONE I will not ever abide with, ever. It is not reconcilable with the rest of the teachings of the Catholic Church. You can hide you intellect and find reasons to justify it, just as you can find reasons to justify any immoral behavior by citing some greater good. However, Catholic Moral Theology clearly teaches that it is forbidden to do eveil to bring about good.

An abandoned marriage is evil.. You cannot not violate it for any reason. I will write to my ordinary who is Cardinal Egan, I will copy the Ordinaries where my wife, illegally since she abandoned me, lives. In Cary, North Carolina. These ordinaries are Bishopo Gossman of Raleigh and Eparch Andrew Pataki of the Passaic Byzantine diocese, the Byzantine ordinary with authority over the Church my wife and her lover attend, where they are fully accepted as man and wife and encouraged as such by their Pastor, Father Rick Rohrer, who knows fully that the Roman Rota has twice ruled that these two are ADULTERERS. Yet he encourages my enslavement through immoral civil laws.

When they refuse to put an end to this fiasco, as is within their authority, since they each can get a restraining order for their property to forbid the lovers to tresspass upon it, if they decide not to divorce and make full restitution.

Then, I will formally extricate myself from the Catholic Church, as best I can because the failure of the Catholic Church and the Ordinary to fully act on the behalf of a wronged spouse, within what they are legally allowed to do both canonically and civilly, will be a clear indication to me of the approval of the institutional Catholic Church that criminal activity that is ongoing against an innocxent spouse is acceptable to the institutional catholic Church.

There simply is no other interpretation. Only excuses.

I am tired of excuses.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), February 13, 2005.

Karl,

I am not by any means an expert, but here is what I have to say.

Your problem basically lies with your wife, her lover, and one priest, not the whole of the Catholic Church. If the Roman Rota has ruled that they are adulterers, then it would appear that this Father Rich Rohrer is making a grave error by encouraging their union.

"Then, I will formally extricate myself from the Catholic Church, as best I can because the failure of the Catholic Church and the Ordinary to fully act on the behalf of a wronged spouse, within what they are legally allowed to do both canonically and civilly, will be a clear indication to me of the approval of the institutional Catholic Church that criminal activity that is ongoing against an innocxent spouse is acceptable to the institutional catholic Church."

The very fact that the Roman Rota is in conflict with this priest goes to show that the institutional Catholic Church does not approve of this situation.

I do not think I can even begin to comprehend the pain and hurt you must be feeling, but I implore, do not let the actions of a few people cause you to abandon the Truth.

Tim Kirschenheiter

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), February 13, 2005.

Dear Tim,

First, in such an instance it is ultimately the Ordinary who has the final say and the final authority. Thus it is not simply the lone priest.

Second, at each stop along my wife's travels with her lover and they have been, in Iowa, Georgia, Virginia and North Carolina they have been supported completely, in their adultery by every priest I have spoken with and with every Ordinary. Such is the state of the Catholic Church.

The evil is everywhere my friend and unless good Catholics refuse to monetarily support this Church, after first imloring their ordinaries to make it their policy to excommunicate unrepentant adulerers, then you are all guilty of this adultery because you are choosing to cooperate when you are not compelled to. Tha is Moral Theology my friend.

The Catholic Church does not HAVE to accept these unrepentant criminals. It chooses to while they continue their horrendous acts. This makes the Catholic Church an active participant in adultery.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), February 13, 2005.

Not questioning for one second the reality of the obvious evil which in unjustly dumped on you, Karl... not for one second do I doubt the truth of it and the wide-spreadness of it, I keep coming back to this:

You're being asked to die on a Cross.

My plea to you is, despite the understandable aversion to picking that Cross up, and despite difficulty of making that decision, that act of the will, please do it. You need the experience the fruit of doing so, true, but don't forget: other people need to reap the benefit of you doing so as well.

Please consider it.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 13, 2005.

Dear Emerald,

As with the case of an adulterous spouse, if you remain with them and they do not repent, you become guilty of their adultery. That is long what the Catholic Church has taught. A person is under the obligation to leave an adulterous unrepentant spouse.

So it is with the Catholic Church, as both are to reflect the Trinity.

So, when the Catholic Church clearly is in error, as it is by failing to protect valid marriages which have been found to be Sacraments by the Magisterium(the Rota is a part of this being a Papal court), and it has been given the proper notice of its error and continues to respond as an unrepentant adulterer, by welcoming those unrepentant adulterers who ignore the Papal ruling, it becomes incumbant upon the aggrieved party to separate itself from the sinful Catholic Church until it repents. The situations are analagous.

I have no intention of joining another Church because all of the others are even worse adulterers.

So, while I have not done this yet, I feel that I am morally obligated to. For me this clap trap about the Church not being able to err because it is the Bride of Christ is hogwash. Yes, the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ. But she is a whore and Jesus Christ knew this and still died for her.

One day she will see what her sleeping around has done and those who have led her down this path of perversion(ie our Pope, Bishops and Clergy, with no small assist from the adulterous laity(who helped to create this problem with the flamboyant unrepentant infidelities) will be held accountable, particularly for their failure to listen to the cries of their victims for their repentance.

I am paying my price, now. Pray for me and pray for the Bishops I shall write to that they see the good they can do by taking the action that is justifed, which I will request. Pray for my wife and her lover that they repent so a Sacrament can be healed.

I have printed their names here, before. Feel free to write to them, if you like to implore them to act responsibly for the good of the spouses of the SACRAMENT and of our children, which is what they should be doing in view of the fact that such is the authentic teaching of the Catholic Church, which they all conveniently seem to disregard in their quest to welcome the sinneres, whom have for fourteen years shown no desire to follow what the Catholic Church teaches regarding marriage. But evidently fourteen years of denying me and our children our rights to a whole family is not very high on the agenda of the Catholic Church, presently.

Karl

-- Karl (Parkerkajwen@hotmail.com), February 13, 2005.

Karl, Don't leave the Church.

But, I think for your own mental health, there is a point where you just have to let it go.

You have a lot of positive to contribute.

God bless,

-- john placette (jplacette@catholic.org), February 15, 2005.