Jesus is your Saviour

(Titus 3:5-6 KJV) (5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Dear brothers and sisters, in Christ,

I am sorry that you see it fit to label me as an anti-catholic or a catholic basher. If my words did come across as such, then i must ask for your forgiveness, for my actions was not one of a disciple of Christ.

But what i have to say, i pray you receive with the intention it’s been sent with.

For once, lets forget about denominations, history, origins, traditions, sola scripture vs traditions, dogma, pastors, popes, priest, churches, and most of us lets forget about us. Lets trust GOD and His Holy Spirit.

I was brought up in a Christian home, my family members were all Christians (protestant). My grand dad was a pastor, and we attend church and Sunday school ever Sunday, even week days as well. My parents made us pray together, read our bible, not swear, drink, or even smoke. Even listening to non Christian music was considered a sin. Such was my up bringing, a very pious and moral one, at the very least.

But you know the sad part, all these things, it made me no closer to Jesus. (maybe i was doing something wrong). So when i become a teenager, i become a rebel, leading a life of sin, drinking alot, sleeping around, even with prostitutes, married women, physical and emotionally hurting people, including my parents. I knew of God, and did attend church once in a while, but when one is living in sin, one keeps away from God. I lived this life close on ten years, until last year.

My then girlfriend, now wife, fell ill, she becoming mentally ill. She accused me of hurting and abusing her, etc, my life fell apart. All my knowledge, my skills, my bank account, my family, my church could not help me.

Then one day, as i cried out to God and ask him WHY. Guess what, He answered me. God speaks in a subtle & soft voice, and most of the time, our lives are too busy to hear him. He told me how much He loved me, and that when i sinned, i hurt Him, but if i confess my sins to Him, He will wash away very sin as His word says: (2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV) (17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. When we confess our sins to Him, he takes our sins and throw them away into a sea of forgetfulness.

Which means when i confessed to Him, He made me a new creature and all my previous sins were washed away by His blood. That after as i cried out to Him, i physical felt sometime enter my body, it run down from my head to my feet, it was like a very hot fire, but with the warmest feeling, a feeling of comfort, it was not much more than just a fuzzy feel. I can not explain in words exactly what happen. Many of you will give many explanations, but i truly feel that was the comforting of the comforter, the Holy Spirit. I guess this is when my life changed, when i was made a new creature, “born again” if you like. That is the day, i entered into a personal relationship with Jesus.

God answered me by saying to me, that EVERYBODY, every man and women, will fail me, but he would never leave me nor forsake me, for His Word say so. I had an hunger and thirst to know more about God. So i started to read my Bible, and guess what, every question that i asked God, i found in my Bible. It was as if the Bible was written personal for me, and my problems. And brothers & sister, this is not an attempt to prove sola scripture or not, it is just my experience.

God spoke to me through His Word, for example, when i told Him, that i can not carry on with this pain and suffering, i read verse like these: (Psalm 138:7 KJV)Though I walk in the midst of trouble, thou wilt revive me: thou shalt stretch forth thine hand against the wrath of mine enemies, and thy right hand shall save me. (Isaiah 43:2 KJV) When thou passest through the waters, I {will be} with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. (Romans 8:28 KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to {his} purpose.

And when i asked Him for strength He showed me this: (Isaiah 40:31 KJV)(31) But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew {their} strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; {and} they shall walk, and not faint. (Nehemiah 8:10 KJV) (10) Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the Lord is your strength. (Philippians 4:13 KJV) (13) I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. (Isaiah 41:10 KJV) (10) Fear thou not; for I {am} with thee: be not dismayed; for I {am} thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness. (Proverbs 8:14 KJV) (14) Counsel {is} mine, and sound wisdom: I {am} understanding; I have strength. (Isaiah 40:29 KJV) (29) He giveth power to the faint; and to {them that have} no might he increaseth strength. (Psalms 18:2 KJV) (2) The Lord {is} my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, {and} my high.

Now that i know God and have a personal relationship with Him, I know that He is my personal friend, advisor, consul, He is the one who gives me wisdom, confidence, understand etc. If i need understanding, i just ask Him. Friends hear me clearly on this point, it doesn't mean because God washed away my sins, i have carte blance to sin when ever i choose to. Because His word say “how can you call me Lord, Lord and do not do the these I say”, which mean that i must live as a true Christians, regardless of my denominations or church. I must live according to what He says in His Word. Sure i am human, and will commit sins, but God knows my heart, and i know now that if i do commit a sin, i am hurting my God, But His Word says if I confess my sins, He will FORGIVE me.

I have entered into a personal relationship with Jesus, i don’t want to practice religion any more, i want to experience God and His love. He is my Author, for He is the author of all things. I now believe that my pastor , my church or even my family is not responsible for my salvation, I am not even responsible for my salvation, I believe that because I accepted that Jesus is the Son of God, and that I love and worship him, and because i want to live my life according to His Will, my salvation is secured.

My brothers and sisters, my last words to you is “try entering into a personal relationship with Jesus, were He becomes your friend, your personal trainer, your consultant, a relationship were your you live less and God lives more in you”. With Jesus, as your personal saviour, the debates we have become fruitless, for He will answers all our questions.

May you enjoy Jesus, my friends.

-- nolan (nolannaicker@webmail.co.za), February 11, 2005

Answers

Nolan,

Thank-you for your witness. Thanks and praise to Our Lord and Savior that He has drawn you closer to Himself. Rest assured that Catholics knew and loved Jesus as their personal Savior for 1,500 years before denominationalism entered the world. Catholics know that their salvation is secured if they remain faithful to the Lord until death. Of course, no-one can know with certainty that they will remain faithful. We pray, trust amd work that it might be so, as our Lord and Savior answers all our questions, through His Church, the pillar and foundation of truth. Now that you have experienced a taste of what a relationship with Jesus is like, I pray that someday you may experience the fullness of relationship with Him, by receiving the precious gift of His Body and Blood, which is the means to the most intimate relationship any human being can have with God. What you have found in Christ is good. What He offers you is utterly fantastic.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 11, 2005.

nolan:

your story is inspiring! at times i think ive felt the comforting of the holy spirit when i really could have used it. im glad you turned things around.

i dont doubt your experience at all. i feel the Catholic Church, though, is a vehicle to which i can maintain this personal relationship with Christ.

it sounds as if you feel that "religion" is a stumbling block. it CAN be. but there is much more to our church than what some might see as cumbersome rules. people CAN meet christ through our sacraments. how do you know we dont feel the Holy Spirit when we receive communion, for example?

again, im not doubting your tremendous experience, and i do not think your relationship with God has shortcomings in any way; im trying to relate to you that through our Church, a catholic can achieve a communion with God. dont think a catholic's relationship is any meaningful.

-- jas (jas_r_22@hotmail.com), February 11, 2005.

You won't go far on this, Nolan:

'' when i confessed to Him, He made me a new creature and all my previous sins were washed away by His blood . . . i cried out to Him, --''i physical felt sometime enter my body, --it run down from my head to my feet, it was like a very hot fire, but with the warmest feeling, a feeling of comfort, it was not much more than just a fuzzy feel.''

You are not a ''new creature'' if you haven't been baptized. NO. ''Confess to him'' is a response to His actual grace, but not the WHOLE response he asks. It cheats Him to start saying you're a new creature. When HE makes you one, it will be true; with or without warm, fuzzy feelings.

Would you cheat God of what's rightfully His? He calls you to FAITH, not feelings. To worship Him in truth, not carry around a so- called ''relationship''. These are sweet illusions, but they can't ''wash away sins.'' If you really wanted to wash away your sins, Nolan; you would come to God-- not as you do here; making HIM come to you. You're demanding your God have faith in YOU, instead of the real way: You have faith in HIM.

You might not want to accept that, but you aren't in authority. What you choose or accept is a small matter. What matters is TRUTH. You haven't come faithfully to God. You're only PLAYING at it.

--We'll pray for your complete and truly spiritual conversion. May Our Blessed Mother the Holy Virin Mary pray for your true conversion in FAITH, to honor and love her Divine Son forever. Amen

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 11, 2005.

And, Nolan: I was forgetting---------- Even if you have been baptized before, you still have to come to the Catholic faith. Other kinds of faith cheat Jesus too. He desires your soul in Holy Communion, not a ''personal relationship''. I'm telling you the Gospel truth.

John, 6 v.48 through :59 / --Read all these verses with real faith; ponder them and ask Our Lord to give you wisdom to understand. You can TRULY be saved. But it must be HIS salvation; not man's.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 11, 2005.

Nolan

you have been redeemed.

...as have we all - NOTHING special there.

you have yet to be saved.

...and that will NOT happen until you become a Catholic.

i hope you do.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 11, 2005.

Now we can look at some important examples, Ian; of what is salvation inside and OUTSIDE the Catholic Church.

If all are redeemed --True; but all aren't in the Church, the Church is where MOST, not everyone can be saved. Catholics are sinners too. but they have the sacraments and they can repent at the moment of death.

Non-Catholics like Nolan were not left IGNORANT. We warn him and others here; they cannot plead ignorance, and so-- if they die outside the Church, they'll be damned for not following Christ in faith. (This proves the dogma.)

But, of the many millions who were NOT given the truth, or known about it; many may yet be saved. It depends completely on some other type of Baptism; into the Catholic Church. Baptism of Desire.

They reject sin, and repent with sorrow for their sins. IF they'd been told about water baptism; they would certainly have DESIRED it for their salvation. God alone can say if the soul would have so desired. The Church knows this, and doesn't judge one way or another.

They believe in a God, in some spiritual way or faith.

They can be JUDGED-- by God alone, to have been upright and charitable to their neighbor, and BLAMELESS about not hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Because if they heard the Gospel preached to them and didn't accept it, they aren't in invincible ignorance. They're guilty, and die in their sin. Why would they die in sin, if they repented? Because outside the Church is no salvation, and some souls CHOOSE to be outside. A dangerous choice indeed!

To be cleansed of sin, the obvious conditions are, ----------Your sorrow for sin-- and God's Mercy. Your sorrow and repentence may not qualify if you refused the promises of Christ. He made us a part of His New Covenant; a holy pact with the Father, and His Church. NOT free-lance Christians. The CHURCH is where He promised us the Father's part of His Covenant. God has promised mercy for the people who follow his Holy Son in faith. But NOT to those who don't follow Him. They aren't in ignorance, they reject the Church.

Jesus Himself said it this way to his disciples: ''If he will not hear the church, let him be to you as the heathen and the publican.'' (Matt, 18 :17 and :18)

''-- He will not hear the Church,'' --means not because he was invincibly ignorant of her; but just OUTSIDE the Church, against God's Will.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 11, 2005.

nolan,

first, im glad to hear that you have turned your life around. that is great. second, i love your optimism for humanity and the salvation for those who follow Jesus and live a clean life. i hear everyone always say there is no salvation outside the catholic church and it does bother me to think that would be the case. but as it has been pointed out the ignorant, such as people who have not had the opportunity to know our Lord, will have their chance in heaven. where i differ from the popular thoughts is that even people who do follow Jesus and live a clean life, but are not catholic, that they will not be saved. i just would not think that our Lord created people to condemn them. so, to those who say nolan is wrong for not being catholic i would like for you to have an open mind and an optimism such as his, bless him and hope he makes it to heaven. he did not condemn you to hell for not sharing his beliefs, so do not condemn him.

-- yu (anonymous@aol.com), February 11, 2005.

Dear Yu--
Of course no one may condemn Nolan for anything at all. God is our Judge. We implore His divine Mercy for us all; each one of us.

You may be reading along here, and some way felt we want Nolan damned; because he won't love Christ's Church.

On the contrary. All we say to you and him and all non- Catholics is meant to instill FAITH; the true faith of the apostles. And, it's not from ''the popular thoughts'' we've drawn this faith, but Jesus Christ while He was on earth, who taught us through the Church. Matter of fact, His Church is very often the extreme opposite of what people find popular.

You make an excellent point, why would Our Lord create people to condemn them? Quite the contrary; Jesus offered his Passion and Death on the cross for Nolan. For Yu and for us.

Knowing this, we all should be eager and willing to KNOW His divine Gift, the Holy Gospel; and cast off anything false. When one loves Jesus Christ, the last thing needed is a useless gospel of men, misrepresenting His Divine Will. Only the Catholic Church preserves the Holy Gospel intact and full of life, for those who seek His salvation. This is why we counsel Nolan --and Yu as well; not to condemn you to hell! That would be absolutely counter-productive. Catholics desire to bring all souls to Christ.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 11, 2005.

To completely dedicate one's life to the service of God is a wonderful thing. How much better would this world be if everyone thought the same way?

On Ash Wednesday I was thrilled to be able to physically get to church and have my priest hear my confession. There are no adequate words to describe the moment when the grace of God fills my soul..it is palpable.

And to receive the ACTUAL BODY AND BLOOD of Jesus Christ ..oh what words could ever tell of the experience?

"we are one in the spirit, we are one in the Lord"..perhaps someday, the words will be true.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 11, 2005.

well nolan...

Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

god's kingdom is a much more deeper thing...than a simple manmade institution...i'm glad to hear about your experience and that it has changed your life and made you a happier and a better person

and to you all very faithfull catholics: everyone has his own path through life,god can reach us through different ways...why not just to be happy for this man and show some more respect

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 12, 2005.

Doctor of divine wisdom, the spca --

Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.''

Oh? Jesus never said such a thing. You bought that wisdom at the spda swap-meet. Go ask for your twenty-five centimes back.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 12, 2005.

Luke 17:21-23 is about as close as I can come to that "quote". Nothing about birds or fish though??

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 12, 2005.

Oh I foudn it.

3) Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. [Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Saying 3 of the Gospel of Thomas. supposeldyly this text is superior to all the texts we have in the Bible because its become a fad among ht e"Lost Gospels". thus we must accet that Jeuss acually said this...

At leats if we ignofe the cohjtnerevidence...

There is no evidence that Jesus actualy said this thouhg.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 13, 2005.

you don't have to accept that jesus said it...i don't care actually who said it...i only recognize wisdom in it...and if this was said in your christian bible,you would too...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 13, 2005.

sdqa, man your a character I must say! But what is your deal? Why do you continue to come in here and attack us "stone cold" Catholics? Are you trying to save us? Well if so then what a nice guy hehe. But sorry, your the one who DESPERATLY needs saving :)

-- Jason (enchantedfire5@yahoo.com), February 13, 2005.

yeah i am trying to save you!...stopping you from believing in a 2000 year old book and in a corrupt church that commited so many crimes

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 13, 2005.

sdqa..You could post until your fingers became arthritic and nothing you could ever write would dissuade any of us from our faith..why would you believe otherwise? Do you think that people are so easily swayed away from their faith by simple statements such as "I hate your religion?"

Honestly, sqda, even if you had the ability to post eloquent arguments which had some sort of sense to them..(at least they might be interesting to listen to )..it would make no difference to us. You don't seem to understand that your comments here aren't changing anyone's mind at all..most people who read your posts are only moved in one direction..that of praying for YOU. You don't threaten us..at best, your posts are annoying and juvenile (my own opinion)..at worst, they leave me with a sense of sadness that a young person uses so much energy distancing himself from his Creator.

Someday, and it may not be as far off as you think, you will find yourself face to face with God. At that moment there will be no excuses, no "going back for a re-run"..If you take some time to really think about how that moment will play out..can you imagine what God may have to say to you?

That can be a very sobering thought..or not..God gives us all free will. Yet death DOES come to all of us..and then what? I like the quote from C.S. Lewis..can't recall the exact words, but it's something like this: Everyone you will ever meet is an eternal being. It just depends upon WHERE they will spend eternity.

So, sdqa..where will you spend eternity?

I'm hoping for heaven myself..not guaranteed by a long shot..but I'm certainly doing all I can to try to get there. Where are you headed?

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 13, 2005.

No chance of him beign reaaonable.

He heard of the Gospel of Thomas which is blled as the " Missing Gospel' and the "True sayins of Jeus' by many, and bouht into that line of logic based on its advrtising alone.

Now hes intot he "Jesus ddnt exist' idea, base don hearing the idea dnnd it suiting his particular whim and agenda to estory Christendom.

Lets face it, eh cant think for himself, yet he accuses us of not beign able to, he is rude an dinsufferbale, eyt wants to teahc us charity, he is foul and doesnt even tink fo the consequences f th emoral deprativey he advocates, and yet he tells us o the crimes fo the past.

He is, in shrot, immature and lacks any mental abilkity to even thk about the issue, much less come ot a cnlcision or advicate others share his eiws.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 13, 2005.

While sometimes used interchangably in the New Testament (especially by Paul) the theological meanings of Saved, Justified, and Redeemed are actually quite distinct.

When Jesus died on the cross he said "It is finished" or in other translations "it is accomplished".

WHAT was accomplished? The Redemption of the HUMAN RACE. But Our Lord also commanded his apostles to BAPTISE people stating clearly that unless someone be born of water and the spirit (meaning that it's not merely a sign but is a sacrament - an actual grace), that person could not enter into eternal life.

What then does Baptism "do" or accomplish that his death on the cross does not? It applies that Redemption to the individual soul - it justifies the soul.

But Our Lord and the apostles also warn people of being unfaithful and of sin and of not persevering.

If his Redeeming death on the cross was no different than individual justification, there would have been NO REASON WHATSOEVER to baptise people in his name since all men would be born redeemed.

And if individuals' justification was the same thing as salvation - as in "game over, you win" there would have been NO REASON WHATSOEVER for our Lord and apostles to warn people of hell and sin and no persevering in the faith.

So obviously while the RACE was REDEEMED on Calvary and each individual soul is JUSTIFIED by Baptism (which is a gift and NOT a "work" which the individual can do since no one can baptise themselves but must receive it at the hands of others), this is still a far cry from the state of SALVATION which is definitive and eternal.

To confuse any of the concepts held in these terms for each other is to stumble into literally dozens of heresies and contradictory thinking.

Yes, if you believe in your heart (faith) and profess with your lips (work) you WILL (FUTURE TENSE) BE SAVED.

Yes - because the man who is Justified in the Lord and persevers in this state of justice till the end WILL BE SAVED.

But the opposite is therefore also true - a man who is justified in the Lord could still sin and thereby lose his faith as so many have in our generation and generations past.

How else could Christians apostasize or leave the faith through scandal if once-saved-always-saved?

If His death accomplished "salvation" for the race - what further need would there have been for evangelization? None.

If individual Justice was the same thing as Salvation (game over, you win) then why Our Lord's insistance in KEEPING THE FAITH and doing good works?

Nowhere and at no time does our Lord suggest that the saved soul gets into heaven merely for having faith - in Matthew and Revelation, Salvation - i.e. going to the place prepared for them by the Father ALWAYS involves those justified souls PERSEVERING in love and faith.

Our Lord commanded us to "pick up your cross and follow me" - that's hard work folks! He never said "Just read these words (*as I've commanded Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to write them) and make things up as you go".

Our Lord warned us about keeping our treasure buried - faith without works is dead.

And what NAME did his earliest followers give to their group? They spoke of "the faith" and "the way" (cf. Acts). Now "the faith" always refers to both what is recorded in the actual Old and New Testaments AS WELL AS the other teachings of the apostles not specified in those texts - but seen in the MORAL AND LITURGICAL actions of those people....

Again in Matthew you read not about Jesus commanding his followers to write ANYTHING down...but him giving his apostles teaching authority...

And from the begining they taught that Our Lord REDEEMED the race on the cross, that this redeeming grace comes to each soul individually through the sacraments, beginning with Baptism, and that at the end of a faithful life here on earth, the soul is SAVED when received into Heaven.

There was NEVER a suggestion that Christians earned their way into heaven or worked their way into heaven as though it was a place attainable by mere mortal effort.

Catholics have always acknowledged that God is the one who inspired the heart to believe and God is the gift giver who turns the sign of water into the gift of Justice and the sign of oil and the laying on of hands into the gift of the Spirit, and the signs of bread and wine into His own Body and blood...

If we truly thought (ala Pelagius) that we could work our way into heaven (like those who built Babel or the Masons of today) we'd NOT HAVE A SACRAMENTAL SYSTEM AT ALL.... after all, we aren't the ones who create Justice or the Spirit, or the Body... we believe, we obey, we do the things Our Lord willed us to do...and He does the miracle of grace.

I find it remarkable (which is why I'm remarking) that many Protestants completely misunderstand the whole PREMISE of the sacramental system as though signs = grace and thus human actions create grace!

Nothing could be further from reality and praxis and history.

We DISTINGUISH between Redemption, Justice, and Salvation based on the clear scriptural passages that prove our Lord and apostles saw them as distinct...and by noting the PRAXIS in Acts and Revelation and the earliest writings and customs of the Church which clearly had as premise that God is the architect but we are the living stones... that he is the inspirer, but we are the writers... that he is the one who gave us the treasure, but we are expected to put this to use and produce fruit and return a profit....

From the begining to 1500, no one thought it was an either/or: faith or works. But saw it as "both".

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), February 15, 2005.

KT-

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phillipians 2:12

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God." See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." James 2:14-26

It seems that you might be favoring certain quotes over others, but the Bible must be taken as a whole, and in many instances, the Bible calls for a balance.

Let me know what you think.

And as for saying "xian", it reminds me of St. Andrew dying on an x shaped cross, which brings back proud memories of my Catholic heritage.

Tim Kirschenheiter

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), February 16, 2005.

"I'm hoping for heaven myself..not guaranteed by a long shot..but I'm certainly doing all I can to try to get there."

you seem to forget that if you belive and repent and are born again you will go to heaven IT IS GARENTEED <-- can't spell but hey you all know that already!

-- kt (jc_died_4_me@hotmail.com), February 17, 2005.

KT-

"you seem to forget that if you belive and repent and are born again you will go to heaven IT IS GARENTEED"

So, once we accept Jesus as our savior and are Baptized and repent, we are guaranteed Heaven? "Even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day" we will still reach Heaven?

Tim Kirschenheiter

P.S. If you insist on saying "xtian" please at least take the "t" out and say "xian" or else the x is being substituted for chris instead of Christ. :-)

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), February 17, 2005.

According to the Bible (and the teaching of the Church which went into the Bible) heaven is guaranteed to those who believe, repent, are born again, and then LIVE as though they are born again until the day they die. If one turns away from Christ, or succumbs to worldly temptations AFTER believing, repenting, and being born again - and many do so - one will not be saved.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 17, 2005.

hee hee will do...

So, once we accept Jesus as our savior and are Baptized and repent, we are guaranteed Heaven? "Even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day" we will still reach Heaven?

yep if you repent each time you will..... no sin is any worse than another execpt sinning against the holy spirit so lieing is just as bad as murder in Gods view....

-- kt (jc_died_4_me@hotmail.com), February 17, 2005.

kt

"yep if you repent each time you will....."

That quote, as written by Martin Luther, diverges from your belief.

I think Protestantism would be quite a force if it could keep any unity of belief. But, honestly, once Luther separated from Catholicism, no Protestant had any right to stop others from separating and forming their own man-made religion.

Too many people want nothing but a feel-good religion.

Tim

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), February 17, 2005.

"lieing is just as bad as murder in Gods view.... "

[no this is not true,where is this said in the bible he? it doesn't mean if god forgives you all your sins if you trully repent that all sins are equal...

and think a little about what you just said,what would you like more that i say that i'm santa claus or that i nuke your house?

what you said is pure bs,lying isn't as bad as murder unless the lie causes murder or even greater harm,to classify how bad an act is we must look at the harm the act does to others and/or ourselves]-sdqa

'So, once we accept Jesus as our savior and are Baptized and repent, we are guaranteed Heaven? "Even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day" we will still reach Heaven?

yep if you repent each time you will.'

[didn't jesus say to mary magdalene or some other adultress 'go and sin no more'?...how can a person who really accepts and loves jesus and shows this through his descision of getting baptised do these acts 1000 times while knowing that he is doing wrong? didn't jesus say 'you can't serve two lords at the same time'?]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), February 17, 2005.

sdqa,

The above is right on. You said it well!

-- Jim (furst@flasfh.net), February 17, 2005.

It does say in the Bibke all sins are the same...

Usually, James 2, verses 10 and 11 are used by Protestants who beelive all sins are direclty equel. ( Ironiclaly they ignore 2:24...)

10. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

It is interr[eted above to mean "All sins are the same".

However, SQ is also right, if I lied to you and said to you that I woidl, oh, get you some new clothing you wanted in exchange for a few of your CD's, and after you game me the ride reneged and didnt, that wodl be bad.But you woidl survive it.

On the other hand, if I said " Come over to my place, we'll lusten to music" and as soon as you got their pugged you wiht a .25 Claibre pistol and you died, you woidltn survvie it.

Naturlaly, my lying an d not payng you is less severe than the Murder, which si also Biblical.

when the Bibel said " All sins are equel before God", what it means is it has an eqel effect. The effect is seperation. We seperate outselves from the Holy God and each other. Hwoever, all sins arent equel as far as point-of-fact, only in their overlal effect in makign us less Holy.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 17, 2005.

From a Catholic perspective, the teachings about venial vs mortal sin comes into play (telling a lie vs murder) and this makes sense to me.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), February 17, 2005.

AGREED, I was just clarifyng where osme protestants ge thte idea that all sins are equel.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 17, 2005.

Regarding repenting

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;

IF GOD PERADVENTURE WILL GIVE THEM REPENTENCE TO THE ACKNOWLEDGING OF THE TRUTH;

and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." (2Tim 2:24-26)

------------------------------------------------------------------- ooh i just saw this one too... "...let all them everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2tim2:19

---------------------------------------------------------------- "Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace..." 2tim2:22

it's not about sin and repent and sin and repent. it looks like you better hope that God will grant repentence (especially when you sin and you don't "feel sorry" even though you logically are?)

the second two verses are about self control. a fruit of the spirit. depart from iniquity and flee from youthful lusts require an action on your part to "resist the devil and he will flee from you."

God knows that you will sin, but for heaven's sake, don't let yourself do it again. practice some self control. and if you don't have self control, then pray to God for some. "i can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." all things, like resisting the urge to sin.

we're fortunate that God will forgive us our sins but far be it from us to take Him for granted by using and manipulating him.

-- Rina (emailmarina@aol.com), February 17, 2005.

i dont see why we are debating this when we all seem to agree anyway! :)

-- kt (jc_died_4_me@hotmail.com), February 18, 2005.

I odnt think this is a debage as mucha s a discussion...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 18, 2005.

funkydory

-- kt (jc_died_4_me@hotmail.com), February 18, 2005.