do all ppl who kill theirselves go to hell?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), February 16, 2005

Answers

Why? where you contemplatin it?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 16, 2005.

yeah kind of...but that's not why i am asking this...i'm asking this because i heard of serveral christians that those who kill theirselves go immediately to hell;i thought that this was unfair...maybe it's not their fault they did so...they could have serious mental problems...being under influence or simply thought that it was the only and best solution...but...what person without serious mental problems or being really convinced that it's the best thing to do so would do such a thing?...there's nothing fun about it...what normal person would want to die?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), February 16, 2005.

We don't know the answer to that with certainty, but there is good reason to think that people who commit suicide may still be saved. The Church teaches that dying in a state of unrepented mortal sin is the only thing that certainly condemns a person to hell. The Church further teaches that there are three essential requirements for mortal sin. If one of these requirements is absent, mortal sin does not occur. The first requirement is objectively grave matter. The act itself must be objectively and seriously immoral. Suicide certainly qualifies on that count. The second requirement is that the person who commits the act must be consciously aware that the act is gravely immoral at the time they commit it. There is some doubt whether a person who is so mentally distraught as to be committing suicide is thinking clearly enough at that time to satisfy this requirement. And finally, mortal sin requires full rational consent of the will. In effect, the person must say "This act is gravely immoral, I am aware that it is gravely immoral, and I freely choose to do it anyway". It is doubtful that a person contemplating the most irrational act of all, self-destruction, is in a position to give full rational consent to anything, let alone the act of destroying himself. Therefore there is good reason to think that God in His infinite mercy considers the mental and emotional factors that drove the person to commit this sin, and deals with the person accordingly.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 16, 2005.

i agree paul

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), February 16, 2005.

We dont know who goes to hell or heaven; it all depends if they did it with sufficent contemplation & knowledge or not. I knew an insurance agent who bought a life insurance policy for 1,000,000 and a day after the suicide clause expired (2 years) killed himself.

we may be more likely to say that that was contemplated, but we dont know what the state of his soul was at the moment of death....only God knows that.

Joe

-- joe (joe @AOL.com), February 16, 2005.

http://www.ewtn .com/library/ANSWERS/SUICIDE.htm

Place by qwert a a.j.

ewtn: Therefore, objectively, suicide is a mortal sin. (Moreover, to help someone commit suicide is also a mortal sin.)

Especially the last sentence !! Helping someone commit suicide is murder first degree , nothing more , nothing less !!" You got to be a cheap freaky cold nuthead to "help" someone end his/her life !!

People does commit suicide for different reasons , but , what in case when it's a family matter , I'm talking about , in a family (generations) , several members which committed suicide ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), February 16, 2005.

> "Therefore, objectively, suicide is a mortal sin."

This is a misstatement. There is no such thing as "objectively a mortal sin", since mortal sin requires that one objective criterion AND two subjective criteria ALL be present. Suicide is objectively a grave moral evil, but a grave moral evil is not a mortal sin unless both subjective criteria are also met.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 16, 2005.

Paul, do you know much about the Massada Jewish suicide? If in fact this was forced upon them by the approaching disaster; they haven't been judged in a mortal sin, have they? This is a historical event that's always appalled me.

In Henri Daniel-Rop's Life of Christ, he wrote a long account of the destruction of Jerusalen by Titus in 60 A.D. If you read it you'll see how horrific the suffering of the Jews was. I should think at Massada those Jews were faced with something so evil they HAD to choose the only way out. They cast themselves off a cliff en masse. It could be forgiven them after all.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 16, 2005.

Eugene, the suicide of the Jews at Masada was under extremely extenuating circumstances and God would probably forgive it, but it was still a sin. We are NEVER forced to choose to DO something sinful. There is always a way to avoid sin.

Paul, I would also add that even if a particular suicide WAS a mortal sin, if the person was truly sorry for it (eg in the last moments before losing consciousness) he could be forgiven and saved from Hell.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), February 16, 2005.

Paul

[There is some doubt whether a person who is so mentally distraught as to be committing suicide is thinking clearly enough at that time to satisfy this requirement.---Paul]

I read a book written by a Catholic priest or bishop (if I'm not mistaken) that tried to show people that most mental illness is a result of guilt or unrepentant sin or just a lack of communion with God. It forced me to reevalutate my life when I was in pity party mode and wanted to be depressed and blame others for my problems. In fact, as I looked around me, I noticed that all of my friends, acquaintances and relatives who were not satisfied with their lives, who were "depressed" or had some type of "mental illness" actually brought it upon themselves.

The cause of these depressions actually started off with "minor" issues. Self-centeredness... depressed from lack of male attention. Pride... depressed because not successful in the world's eyes. Self- pity... depressed because can't forgive others' wrongdoings. Low self-esteem... depressed because lack of relationship with God, looks too much for others' approval.

I am not overgeneralizing, these are actually what I found to be the foundation of their problems after years of infomation gathering and contemplation. Some of these people have changed their lives when I finally had the guts to proclaim the truth to them. Some of these people refuse to change their lives and I see them deteriorate before my eyes year after year.

My point is, I am curious to hear your comments on what serves as an actual mental disorder, serious enough that it nullifies the sin aspect of suicide. By the way, worldly psychoanalysis doesn't hold too much water in my book because secular therapists don't use God in their equations. I kind of want YOUR opinion basically. Just to open up discussion.

The basic question... if you are the one that causes yourself to be mentally distraught, and find that you really and truly "can't seem to get better" so that you would kill yourself, is it a sin?

-- Rina (emailmarina@yahoo.com), February 17, 2005.

Paul will probably answer you shortly Rina. I'd like to express an opinion or two, not exactly about your definitions of mental disturbances. Yet the kind which I happen to see as mitigating circumstances in a suicide.

I feel that many disturbed or deranged suicides act from fear as much as depression. Morbid feelings of fear may or may NOT result from unrepentent sin and guilt. But even without guilt fear could cause a mind to become very unstable. --Sometimes to an inevitable temptation to suicide.

Speaking for myself, I would fall back upon total faith in God, to fortify our souls. But I only know beacuse I've already been tested during almost 50 years of stress. What about some teenage soul? Even a person of 30 and more? Faith might NOT overcome every onset of fear and panic. What do the words of an old man mean to an unstable boy or girl who sees no way out?

This world was always a frightening place even to so many strong men and women. Heroic men and women have been stricken with fear of the future. If by grace they learn to lean on God, these souls won't come to the point of suicide; not all of us. But it doesn't change the fact that many others struggle with great insecurity. Even with God by my side, I felt morbid fear many times as a young man. He helped me to cope.

Some poor soul snaps every day and the only mental disturbance causing it is deep insecurity. If we added guilt, what an evil combination that would be. I wonder if half of all tragic suicides are not committed in a helpless condition? Then we could not call them all mortal sin.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 17, 2005.

Eugene,

i like your post, could you please clarify a bit of something for me? The helpless condition that you speak of is what I am asking about. What if YOU are the one that causes your own helpless condition? By that I will give you an example.

My mother is helplessly depressed. Every aspect of her life is in a sorry state because my father is a big spender of useless things. Now he has a BIG problem but in the past 20 years he has lived in denial and has only gotten worse. Also, since he sees his relationship with my mother slipping through his fingers, he has become strangely possessive, even though he is the one trying to score girlfriends every other day. I feel really sorry for her but there are some things that she could do to relieve her situation a bit but she refuses to. She wants to suffer on purpose to make him feel guilty. (which hasn't happened yet by the way) She wants to suffer on purpose because it gives her a motivation to divorce him. She wants to suffer on purpose because she is afraid that my brother won't like her if she divorces and she wants my brother to feel sorry for her.

Now she is at the clinically depressed point, and I do commend her for not taking drugs to make her feel better. She has even admitted that the drugs will not solve her problems but that "something" else will. I have a feeling that God is tugging at her heartstrings right now and that "something" else is really God. Let's say that she gets to the point where she contemplates or actually commits suicide... her "mental disturbance" while triggered by my father, was actually caused by her.

She is not in communication with God, she will not forgive my father, she will not ask for my father for forgiveness for the wrongs that she has done (because his wrongs are "worse" than hers), she is constantly looking for people to back her up so she can be in the right (i do side with her but i don't like her to constantly bash my father to gain others to her side), and I see that these things make her depression worse. Let's say that she gets to the point where her depression gets her to the helpless state... is she not held accountable for getting herself into the helpless state to begin with?

I am not here to condemn my mother. I just use her as an illustration. I want her to take the reins of her life, assume responsibility for her thoughts and actions and let God become the light of her life.

Just to repeat the question so you don't have to backtrack...

What if YOU are the one that causes your own helpless condition?

-- Rina (emailmarina@yahoo.com), February 17, 2005.

Rina, when it’s all boiled down, we are all in a helpless condition. As the Buddhists say in the first of their Noble Truths, LIFE IS DIFFICULT! Considering this by itself, it’s LOGICAL to be depressed. But we spend so much time and energy avoiding this reality, pretending that life should be easy, that we can bluff our own way through, that we’ve got it all together all on our own. But one day our heart is broken. We become one of those of whom Jesus said “Blessed are the poor in spirit”. We can choose despair. Or we can “let go and let God”, admit our absoulte need of God. When we do, a marvellous thing happens. God doesn’t make life easy for us. No he gives US the strength to overcome the difficulties. We only have to ask.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), February 17, 2005.

Don't try to teach your Mom how to cope, Rina. Or how she can shake off depression. We shouldn't go on Oprah Winfrey's show schmoozing-- about how fickle fate is to us. As Steve well said, many are avoiding reality, by pretending life should be easy. Never! But just think of Our Lord's agony in the garden where He Himself fell to the ground sweating drops of blood. Tell mother Jesus knows exactly how she feels in her depressed state. --He really knows.

She has to learn to love Jesus Christ. THAT'S A MUST! If you think she's not in communication with God, tell her to communicate right now. Tell her why she has to LOVE Jesus, for her own mental health.

The devil takes pleasure in seeing us whimper. We've got to KICK his @ss! Take her to see the movie, The Passion of the Christ. YOU love Christ our Saviour. Explain to her then; (You do, don't you?) that above all we must LOVE Jesus.

Let's not expect solutions to our problems out of discussion forums. We're here to meditate on Jesus Christ. To start loving Our Holy Redeemer the way He deserves to be loved. In Him we have every consolation and our life impulse; the opposite of suicidal impulses!

Those souls driven to suicide haven't even KNOWN the love of Jesus, Rina. Make your mother realise how much we must love Our Lord. It's never too late, He's waiting.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 17, 2005.

Gene,

Just to ease your mind, I don't try to teach my mom anything. I let her speak and I listen and listen and listen... you know how moms can be! And just for the record for anyone out there, I didn't bring up my mom's case just to prove that she's going to hell or anything. I only use her as an example because she is the best example that I can provide, which is a shame actually.

I try to share my experiences with her without bonking her over the head with a bible. BELIEVE YOU HEATHEN. It's pretty counterproductive. Anyways, I don't shove the truth down her throat (ie, "Hey ma, quit having a pity party!")

Anyways, have a nice night everyone.

-- Rina (emailmarina@yahoo.com), February 18, 2005.

No, but you could tactfully and gently suggest that she pray , "Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief!"

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), February 18, 2005.