Before you read this I want you to understand that I have nothing against Catholics. I love them deeply, but just as a friend loves a friend does he not question the friend if his actions are qustionable. I ask this out of interest and love and not of disapproval. Do catholics believe in a personal relationship with God? If so, then why do catholics pray through marry to Jesus? If she is the "Chosen One" then why didn't she save us? Jesus himself does not even recognize marry as his mother. "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers? Here are my mother and my brothers! ...For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Matthew 12:48-50) In that statement he refers to marry as equal to all christians. Then why do catholics pray to thier nieghbor? If she is equal? And does Jesus not say to pray directly to the Father? "This, then, is how you should pray: `Our FATHER in heaven, hallowed be YOUR NAME, YOUR kingdom come, YOUR will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." (Matthew 6:9-13)"But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray TO YOUR FATHER who is in secret; and YOUR FATHER who sees in secret will reward you." (Matthew 5:6) Jesus says to pray to the Father. I think the catholic priests were into making people believe they were inferior, and unworthy. They used to only allow priests to read the Bible. Would this then be an explanation of why they would tell the people that they must pray through marry and not to Jesus (who is God) directly? "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) Even Marry. So do the unworthy pray to the unworthy? I think that's where they messed up. Why pray to the bones in the sand when you can pray to the being who created them? Is he not more powerful. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)If Jesus (God the son) spoke directly to an adultress, and even saved her physical life from being stoned. Why then would he not allow his children to speak to him directly? For our sin is as deadly as hers and hers as deadly as ours. Then all sin is equal and all except Jesus have sinned even marry. So is not her sin as great as ours? Why then pray to an equal? Does Jesus not save us? Does the Father not heal us? Can God not hear us? Why would God need a messenger if he is the messenger, and sender? Does God need a hearing aid? Can he not hear our prays prayd to marry? Why pray to her then if he already hears them?

-- Joshua (Trojan27w@hotmail.com), February 27, 2005

Answers

> Do catholics believe in a personal relationship with God?

A: Of course we do. If we didn't, no-one else would even have heard of the possibility, since the Catholic Church alone carried the truth of Jesus Christ from Apostolic times into modern times.

>If so, then why do catholics pray through marry to Jesus?

A: We don't "pray through Mary to Jesus". We pray to Jesus, and we also ask other Christians to pray for us to Jesus. Don't you? Since Mary is another Christian, and the first Christian, and the most spiritually perfect Christian who ever lived, it is only right and proper that we should ask her to intercede for us, just as we ask our families and friends and other earthly sinners to intercede for us.

>If she is the "Chosen One" then why didn't she save us?

A: First, because she is not God, and it was necessary that the savior be divine in order for His death to make restitution for offenses against God. Second, because that is not what Mary was chosen for. She was chosen to be the one through whom the Savior would enter the world, his mother, not the One Who would be the Savior.

>Jesus himself does not even recognize marry as his mother."

A: Let's not be ridiculous. Mary gave birth to Him and raised Him. That makes her His mother by definition, and He was most certainly fully aware of that fact.

>Then why do catholics pray to thier nieghbor?

A: Prayer is simply communication. More specifically, the word "pray" means to "ask" or "request". The word is used in that context in dozens of places in scripture. One man says to another man "I pray thee, do me a favor". Why would Catholics not communicate with their neighbors? Why would we not ask our neighbors for prayers of intercession, when the Bible clearly records the Apostles doing so? Christians have asked other Christians for prayers of intercession from day one.

>And does Jesus not say to pray directly to the Father?

A: Yes He does, and Catholics have done so from the moment He first said it. But we have also asked one another for prayers of intercession from the very beginning. And please, don't bring up the notion of speaking to "the dead" because the words of Christ Himself, as recorded in the Holy Bible, clearly state that those who follow Him will NEVER DIE.

>I think the catholic priests were into making people believe they were inferior, and unworthy. They used to only allow priests to read the Bible.

A: During the first 1,500 years of Christianity only priests and a handful of other educated people read the Bible, for two reasons. First, they were the only people who could read at all. 95% of the population was illiterate. And second, Bibles were very rare since the printing press had not been invented, and a Church would usually own just one Bible. Therefore the priests would indeed study the Scriptures, just as they do now, and then teach the people the same way the Apostles did - by oral preaching, just as Jesus had commanded them to do.

>Would this then be an explanation of why they would tell the people that they must pray through marry and not to Jesus (who is God) directly?

A: You are sadly misinformed. No Catholic priest has ever told anyone that they could not pray to God directly.

>So do the unworthy pray to the unworthy?

A: Yes, my family and friends are just as unworthy as I am, yet I pray them (ask them) to pray to God on my behalf. Don't you?

>Why pray to the bones in the sand when you can pray to the being who created them?

A: I don't pray to the physical remains of the saints. I pray to the living saints who are gathered around the throne of God, offering my prayers to him on my behalf, just as described in the Book of Revelation.

>Is he not more powerful.

A: Of course He is! Which is why all prayer is ultimately directed to God, both my prayer offered directly to Him, and prayers offered on my behalf by others.

>Why then would he not allow his children to speak to him directly?

A: As I already said, this is not an issue. You are misinformed.

>Does Jesus not save us? Does the Father not heal us? Can God not hear us?

A: Yes, He does. Yes He does. Yes He can. And you would not know any of these facts were it not for the teaching of the Catholic Church, the sole repository of Christian truth for the first 1,500 years of Christianity.

>Why would God need a messenger if he is the messenger, and sender? Does God need a hearing aid? Can he not hear our prays prayd to marry? Why pray to her then if he already hears them?

A: Then why ask your family and friends to pray for you? Why would God need a messenger? Can He not hear our prayers spoken directly to Him? Why ask others to pray for us if He can hear us directly? Obviously, the two ideas are not in conflict. We don't ask others to pray for us INSTEAD of praying directly to God. We ask others to pray for us IN ADDITION to praying directly to God, just as Christians have done since Apostolic times.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 27, 2005.

Joshua,

From my small experience with this forum, those who come with honest questions are greeted with honest answers.

I am sure many will have great responses, but here is a simple response to start it off.

We, as Catholics, do not pray TO Mary. We ask her to pray FOR us. This is similar to asking your friend or an acquaintance to pray for you, except we ask Mary, blessed among women, the mother of Jesus to pray for us. Talk about knwoing people in high places :-)

Catholics are allowed and ENCOURAGED to pray directly to God. I do not know where the misconception about this being forbidden was formed, but it seems to be widespread.

As to the point of Jesus rejecting Mary as His mother, this is understood symbolically, not completely literally. Jesus also said that those who follow Him must hate their family. Do you truly believe Jesus meant that literally and that He wants us to hate our family?

Tim Kirschenheiter

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), February 27, 2005.

Dear Joshua, It was encouraging to read this article because you have stated that you are not against Catholics and that you ask all this in love and not of disapproval unlike many others that I have come across. Paul M and Tim K has really enlightened you and I hope this will help you to understand what many do not understand about catholic faith.

I love being a Catholic and I thank God for blessing me with parents who baptised me into this and for taking me through trials to strengthen my faith. I respect every other faith that teaches love and fellowship and had the circumstance been the way it was for me they too would be of same faith. Our God is a Just and a All Knowing, All Powerful God and therefore His judgement of all will be according to His Divine will. Also God our Father hears each and every one but will only act according to His will because we are mere mortals that He created and He alone knows what is best for us to nurture us on our Spiritual Journey. God bless

-- Ramanie Weerasinghe (lilanw@yahoo.com), February 27, 2005.

Tim

You wrote Jesus also said that those who follow Him must hate their family

Would you provide references to this?

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 27, 2005.

Paul,

Can you provide Scriptural proof that Mary was the first Christian?

Just curious, because I never heard that before.

-- (anon@anon.com), February 27, 2005.

That's the easiest thing to see in the Holy Bible. Read the 1st chapter of Luke.

Mary knew Jesus even as he was conceived. The archangel told her everything her baby was to be, before he was born. She knew He was christ-- a son who was to inherit the throne of his ancestor David. His NAME, Jesus, was given to her before he was born. And in the cave of Bethlehem, she was the FIRST human being to adore Him, the moment he was born. She was the first one to believe He is the son of God; the first to love Him and she never stopped loving Him. Hers was the FIRST faith on EARTH, in Jesus Christ.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 27, 2005.

I guess that sounds reasonable.

But does that justify worshiping her? I wonder.

-- (anon@anon.com), February 27, 2005.

....Except that we know hers was not the first faith on earth. We can see that Abraham's faith in God's promise came long before Mary was even born.

-- (anon@anon.com), February 27, 2005.

anon,

A Christian is one who accepts and follows Christ. Mary accepted Christ when the angel asked her to be His mother, before anyone else was even aware of His existence. On that basis it is reasonable to call her the first to accept Christ, or the first Christian. Obviously that does not justify worshipping her, and no-one does so.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 27, 2005.

Abraham is the father of faith; but had nothing revealed to him about Christ. He never knew the Son of God was to become Man. --Christians do know.

Mary knew that perfectly from the day she was visited by Gabriel the archangel. It made her a Christian THAT day. She believed in the Son of God before he came into the world.

That didn't make her GOD. It made her ''Blessed among women,'' the greatest woman to ever live. We honor her and love her because God honored her and loves her. But we only worship God; through Mary's own son, Jesus Christ. Does this mean we worship her?

Don't EVER believe that. Is the problem of Mary any clearer now, Anon? To YOU?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 27, 2005.

That's where you are wrong Eugene,

The entire Old Testament is a revelation about Jesus Christ. Abraham may not have known the name Jesus--but he certainly understood what God was promising about Messiah, just the same. Abraham was saved by faith in Messiah, who was to come.

God revealed Jesus' substitutionary sacrifice for us, to Abraham, in Genesis.

-- (anon@anon.com), February 27, 2005.

Pat,

"Tim You wrote Jesus also said that those who follow Him must hate their family

Would you provide references to this?"

Sure.

Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be my disciple."

Tim Kirschenheiter

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), February 27, 2005.

Dear anon:
Just because you find it hard to allow Catholics any opinions, can't change the Old Testament into the New. We are in full agreement that Abraham was completely faithful, and he was saved by Jesus Christ. Jesus is clear; ''Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day . . . He saw it and was glad.'' (John 8 :56.) So, Abraham is by rights a full Christian too.

But-- In your protestant eagerness to belittle the Blessed Virgin Mary, you think only Abraham should be FIRST. That's mean-spirited and anti-Catholic. God will never bless your imagined ''Bible wisdom'' for such blatant prejudice against Christ's holy mother. Take some time to contemplate these things. Give God a little chance to enlighten your mind and give you more FAITH.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 27, 2005.

I am glad that you can admit your error. Abraham indeed was saved by the same faith that we are saved by--faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrificial atonement for us. There is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved, not even Mary's.

-- (anon@anon.com), February 27, 2005.

There's NO error.
Mary had to be the Christian who FIRST loved Jesus Christ. Not the PROMISE of a Messiah; the Holy One HIMSELF. Abraham would not have seen Jesus without Mary seeing Jesus FIRST. This is what's known as an anachronism. anon.

You can't understand because you don't know much about Christianity in the first place. You've been taught by MEN, not God.

What's more, Catholics don't give Mary a place equal with her Holy Son. We were the first to know that there's no other name under heaven which saves us. Mary knows it too, from the first day she adored Jesus in that manger! And, guess what? Mary never read your Bible! She held the Word of God in her own arms! Hahaha!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 27, 2005.

There's NO error. Mary had to be the Christian who FIRST loved Jesus Christ. Not the PROMISE of a Messiah; the Holy One HIMSELF. Abraham would not have seen Jesus without Mary seeing Jesus FIRST.

How's that Eugene? Mary wasn't living at the time of Abraham, but Jesus was. Abraham saw Jesus.

You can't understand because you don't know much about Christianity in the first place. You've been taught by MEN, not God.

Actually, I think you mean Catholicism. Catholicism is what is taught by men. I reject that.

What's more, Catholics don't give Mary a place equal with her Holy Son. We were the first to know that there's no other name under heaven which saves us.

Impossible since Catholicism didn't even exist until long after Christianity was in existence.

Mary knows it too, from the first day she adored Jesus in that manger! And, guess what? Mary never read your Bible! She held the Word of God in her own arms! Hahaha!

Hahaha yourself--the Word of God existed before the creation of time., not since Mary gave birth to Him.

John 1:1-2

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

-- (anon@anon.com), February 27, 2005.

Eugene? Mary wasn't living at the time of Abraham, but Jesus was. Abraham saw Jesus. -----Is that in the Bible? No. Jesus said, --''Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day . . . He saw it and was glad.'' (John 8 :56.) MY DAY-- the actual event of Jesus' birth; and THAT is when Abraham finally knew Our Lord. Mary was His holy mother; and she was the first Christian. That's what Abraham and all the prophets waited for, and finally saw. Jesus in HIS day. Not in the days of Abraham.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 27, 2005.

''The Word of God existed before the creation of time, not since Mary gave birth to Him.'' John 1:1-2

Good for you. Do you mean Mary never held Him in her arms? Very strange.

So many things you learnt in the Bible, anon. Christ was born, but His mother was not involved? She couldn't be His first Christian believer, or she would have seen Him before He became Man? Before He was born into the world?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 27, 2005.

What makes you think that *my day* was a reference to Jesus' birth?

Give me a break!

Surely the Catholic Church didn't teach you that--and this is just you going out on a limb?

What Abraham saw through the his eyes of faith, was Jesus' death and resurrection. God told Abraham that through him, because of his faith, all nations would be blessed. Abraham saw Jesus and understood this offer of salvation.

Remember that Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I Am!!"

-- (anon@anon.com), February 27, 2005.

Anon

"But does that justify worshiping her?"

Not to sound like a broken record, but Catholics do not "worship" Mary. Catholics worship only the Blessed Trinity---the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. No one else. Just as everyone above has explained, (only better than me.)

Its a such a common misconception (worshiping Mary.) There are thread after thread of clarifications and explanations. For those who believe Catholics worship Mary, they seem to be unwilling to give it up. They almost seem to treasure this misconception. Its as if some want to believe that we worship Mary whether we do or not.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), February 27, 2005.

Jim,

What it is, is that even though you say you don't worship her--and I believe that you believe yourself, it is actually what you do.

If you look at it play out in your lives, you can see it. It is a very subtle, but very present thing.

Just ask any Catholic that you know, "Who will you look for at the hour of your death?"

-- (anon@anon.com), February 27, 2005.

Just ask any Catholic that you know, "Who will you look for at the hour of your death?"

um, well, the proper answer would be to look for Christ's sacrament of last rights.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), February 27, 2005.

Well, I'll be looking to Jesus. He is my Savior, Himself.

But most Catholics will answer that they will look for Mary, and I think this is because they think they need her to intercede for them.

But if Jesus is the only name under heaven by which we can be saved, what happens if you are looking to Mary?

-- (anon@anon.com), February 27, 2005.

Well, I'll be looking to Jesus. He is my Savior, Himself.

thats nice, how will you discover Jesus except through the sacraments which He instituted?

But most Catholics will answer that they will look for Mary, and I think this is because they think they need her to intercede for them.

i just instructed you as to what the proper answer to your question was, and you return with more uneducated slander. i must have missed your expert credentials on what it is to be catholic. please, instruct all of us here (deacon, priest, and catholics) on what WE believe since you know so much. i suggest next time you ask a question you actually READ the answer before assuming you know.

But if Jesus is the only name under heaven by which we can be saved, what happens if you are looking to Mary?

if you are looking to mary for salvation you arent catholic. if you ask her to pray to Jesus on your behalf, you are still looking to Christ for your salvation. clear up your misconceptions, anon, deliberate ignorance is not flattering.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), February 27, 2005.

Nothing this fellow says or thinks is flattering to him. Just like this: ''Abraham saw through the his eyes of faith, was Jesus' death and resurrection.''--What TRIPE. Pure INVENTION, not scripture!

God did not reveal how his own Son was to be the Messiah. Abraham saw that fact AFTER Jesus had come into the world. Imagine that! ''He saw through eyes of faith!'' In that case, why wasn't every Scribe and Pharisee aware of who Jesus really was; and what He came to do? They all read the scriptures. If Abraham had known beforehand, the entire people of Israel would have known.

MARY was the first mortal being to KNOW straight from God who Jesus truly was; the Son of God. Up to that day, nobody expected ANYTHING so strange and miraculous! God made MAN.

And all of it is recorded clearly in the Holy Bible. There is NO doubt.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 28, 2005.

God wants us to intercede for another because that is one good sign of being a true Christian. A true Christian intercedes for another. Saints continue intercession after their death in Christ (See Rev.5:8). All those who die in Christ also live in Christ. Did not Jesus promise to the good thief "Today you will be with me in paradise (Not after the end of the world)." Even all those who have died before Christ, even with just hope in Him are living with Christ (See Mat.22:31-32).

Intercession or asking for intercession shows love and trust for your fellow Christian, without which no one can enter heaven even with faith. It also takes a certain amount of humbleness to ask another human being to pray. Just addressing to God alone boldly and overconfidently sometimes could mean arrogance, like in the Pharisee in the parable of Pharisee and the tax collector. God, therefore deliberately make us ask for prayers from others, so that love, humbleness, and fellowship aspects of true a Christian may taken care of.

Faith, love, spiritual levels, motives, intentions are not the same with everybody, but differ from person to person, and many a time desired answers to prayers are not received. We instinctively approach those who are more mature in faith or those who are in deeper intimacy with God to address our unanswered prayers. Protestants approach those who are Christ in this earth for help. Catholics approach those who are in and with Christ in heaven for help. Both are needed. We are to accept every means to enter heaven, since the path is narrow and difficult to enter through (Mat.7:14). Like in a big arena, the unseen heavenly saints are ever surrounding us, watching us, applauding, and encouraging us in your walk of faith and spiritual warfare (see Heb.12:1ff)

Abraham's is indeed the father in faith, perhaps, the first among humans who decided to trust God, but the Bible shows his faith was not perfect. There were times his faith fluctuated a bit here and there regarding the promise like in the Hagar episode (Gen.16:3), he even laughed (Gen.17:17), and also even doubted God's protection and lied (Gen.20). The fruit of Abraham faith was Isaac. Isaac was a shadow of his father and did not do better, perhaps a shade bad.

Bible does not show any Mary in any kind doubt with God's promise. She was full of grace and full of Holy Spirit like no one before her in history. The angel greets and honors Mary exactly with the words that God had instructed him to say (Lk.1:26ff). It was not an ordinary greeting, but something very special that makes the Mary to ponder the very words of greeting (Lk.1:29). After believing and accepting of the Word of God, she was so filled with the Holy Spirit that Elizabeth just by hearing her words of greeting, is also filled with the Holy Spirit. Then, the Holy Spirit Himself prompts Elizabeth to praise Mary (See Lk.1:39-45). Mary persevered in faith and excelled much beyond Abraham faith and the fruit of her faith was the fullness Godhead Himself in her heart and also bearing Jesus in her womb (see Lk.1:42).

Why do you seek to dishonor whom God seeks honor? Mary is the Woman whom God desires to exalt above all human beings for His own glory. Are you with Him or against Him? There are only 2 parties: (1) The Woman and her offspring on the right. (2) The beast and his offspring on the left (See Gen.3:15; Jn.19:26-27; and Rev.12:17). Without doubt, all those who oppose the Woman belong to the party of the devil.

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), February 28, 2005.

od wants us to intercede for another because that is one good sign of being a true Christian. A true Christian intercedes for another. Saints continue intercession after their death in Christ (See Rev.5:8). All those who die in Christ also live in Christ. Did not Jesus promise to the good thief "Today you will be with me in paradise (Not after the end of the world)." Even all those who have died before Christ, even with just hope in Him are living with Christ (See Mat.22:31-32).

Intercession or asking for intercession shows love and trust for your fellow Christian, without which no one can enter heaven even with faith. It also takes a certain amount of humbleness to ask another human being to pray. Just addressing to God alone boldly and overconfidently sometimes could mean arrogance, like in the Pharisee in the parable of Pharisee and the tax collector. God, therefore deliberately make us ask for prayers from others, so that love, humbleness, and fellowship aspects of true a Christian may taken care of.

Faith, love, spiritual levels, motives, intentions are not the same with everybody, but differ from person to person, and many a time desired answers to prayers are not received. We instinctively approach those who are more mature in faith or those who are in deeper intimacy with God to address our unanswered prayers. Protestants approach those who are Christ in this earth for help. Catholics approach those who are in and with Christ in heaven for help. Both are needed. We are to accept every means to enter heaven, since the path is narrow and difficult to enter through (Mat.7:14). Like in a big arena, the unseen heavenly saints are ever surrounding us, watching us, applauding, and encouraging us in your walk of faith and spiritual warfare (see Heb.12:1ff)

Abraham's is indeed the father in faith, perhaps, the first among humans who decided to trust God, but the Bible shows his faith was not perfect. There were times his faith fluctuated a bit here and there regarding the promise like in the Hagar episode (Gen.16:3), he even laughed (Gen.17:17), and also even doubted God's protection and lied (Gen.20). The fruit of Abraham faith was Isaac. Isaac was a shadow of his father and did not do better, perhaps a shade bad.

Bible does not show any Mary in any kind doubt with God's promise. She was full of grace and full of Holy Spirit like no one before her in history. The angel greets and honors Mary exactly with the words that God had instructed him to say (Lk.1:26ff). It was not an ordinary greeting, but something very special that makes the Mary to ponder the very words of greeting (Lk.1:29). After believing and accepting of the Word of God, she was so filled with the Holy Spirit that Elizabeth just by hearing her words of greeting, is also filled with the Holy Spirit. Then, the Holy Spirit Himself prompts Elizabeth to praise Mary (See Lk.1:39-45). Mary persevered in faith and excelled much beyond Abraham faith and the fruit of her faith was the fullness Godhead Himself in her heart and also bearing Jesus in her womb (see Lk.1:42).

Why do you seek to dishonor whom God seeks honor? Mary is the Woman whom God desires to exalt above all human beings for His own glory. Are you with Him or against Him? There are only 2 parties: (1) The Woman and her offspring on the right. (2) The beast and his offspring on the left (See Gen.3:15; Jn.19:26-27; and Rev.12:17). Without doubt, all those who oppose the Woman belong to the party of the devil.

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), February 28, 2005.

Sorry for the double post! Must have happened when the internet developed some problems!

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), March 02, 2005.