The intent of this thread is NOT to Catholic Bash but rather to answer questions or concerns about the Catholic faith.

-- jim (jim@jim.com), March 01, 2005

Answers

I converted several years ago after reading the book "Rome Sweet Rome"

-- Davis (Hello@There.com), March 01, 2005.

I don't get it.

-- Mike (n@n.n), March 01, 2005.

jim apparently wants to know the logical reason why certain people here choose not to be catholic. the answer is simple, really... liturgical, historical, and spiritual ignorance :)

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), March 01, 2005.

I understood jim because I had "issues" with the Sacrament of Confession. When they were answered, I felt comfortable with converting.

-- Davis (Hello@There.com), March 01, 2005.

Careful Paul H, some peopel know ostory quiet well, and know Litergy, and spiritually can dicern things.

However, I do want to knwo why this thrwead exists, since 95% of yhe board is CaHTOLIC...and its a Cahtolciboard...

Woidl be liel me ging to a star Trek messgae baord and asking"Why arent you fans? why do you NOT like star Trek?"

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 01, 2005.

disagree with you zaroff. you don't know to much or you would be a Catholic and not with a protestant group.

-- Timothy (Timsskunk22@yahoo.com), March 01, 2005.

-because of the unnatural constraints that the Church places on her followers -the way Catholics pretend they love everybody, but are fiercely judgemental of non-Catholics -all the rites and rituals that are superficial -all the money that goes to the Vatican and all the pretty robes and unneccessary superfluous objects the Church blings around -I see so many Catholics that are hypocrites, twisted, and just happy to choose what they like out of the religion

-- Anna San (detalde@yahoo.com), March 01, 2005.

I do beleive I mentioend before how Im not technically protestant, btu that can be safely ignored I suppose, while you berail my Ignorance...

Granted, you can be calleD iGNORANT FOR THE IGNORIGN OF MY PAST STATEMENTS AND RFUSLARTO EVEN KNOW WHERE i STAND, IDEOLOGICLALY, BUT i SUPPOSE THATS ok...

Ann, we have Hypocrites in all Chruches, baptsts, Meathodists, Pentacostals, prespetyruan, I do not think tis a Catholic-Spacific issue...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 01, 2005.

Careful Paul H, some peopel know ostory quiet well, and know Litergy, and spiritually can dicern things

you know me, zarove, i consider you practically catholic anyway... still don't understand why you havent made the conversion yet.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), March 01, 2005.

Anna,

The above, (your post) really seems rather pejorative. I don't think that Catholics are any more judgemental and certainly don't corner the market on religious hypocracy. That can be found in any group be it religious or atheist. During my lifetime, I've been a part of both type groups and know from experience that anyone with strongly held beliefs or "non-beliefs" tend to try to "help" others to understand what they believe to be the truth.

Keep in mind that on a Catholic bulletin board you are likely to run into people who strongly defend Catholic teaching. Thats the purpose of this board. Also remember that people who actually "post" are likely to reveal their deeply held convictions.

You have done just that with your post. I don't know you so this isn't entirely fair, but judging from the content of your brief description of Catholics and Catholicism, you seem to possess the exact qualities you accuse Catholics of having.

You wrap us "all" up into one ugly hypocritical ball of twisted fire and brimstone.

BTW, welcome. I think if you stick around you will also find some good information and interesting discussions. Not promising you'll like us any better. Your mind seems made up. Each person who posts reveals their own "style," but that can't be fairly used as a barometer to judge Catholics in general.

If I misunderstood the tone of your post, I apologize.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), March 01, 2005.

Anna--
You project on others precisely the faults you exhibit before our forum today:

That you really don't come in good will, and that you don't love our holy mother Church. Here you are spreading slander and lies; we see through you now. It's a shame, because we wanted to be good to you. But you're clearly filled with hatred.

Now you'll go away claiming that I mistreated you. Why? Because my words are painful; yes. You wanted others to follow you away from the Church of the apostles; and instead you were told the truth. It's hard for you to bear. You wanted flattery and got a lesson in faith. How sorry I feel for a poor soul such as you.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 01, 2005.

True, it seems Anna probably just came here to abuse us and didn’t really want answers, but I’ll go along with Jim’s idea and answer her for the sake of others (and for Anna if she decides to look with an open mind):

“-because of the unnatural constraints that the Church places on her followers”

Sorry I’ve got no idea what you mean by that. The Church has never placed any unnatural constraints on me or anyone I know.

“-the way Catholics pretend they love everybody, but are fiercely judgemental of non-Catholics”

Granted, like everyone else we find it hard to love all other people all of the time, but we try. And you’d have to meet thousands of Catholics before you met one who was “fiercely judgemental of non- Catholics”. These rare people are also generally fiercely judgemental of their fellow Catholics too. They are just judgmental people. Probably if they weren't Catholics they would be even more judgmental. I say this because 99% of the "fiercely judgmental" people I have met are non-Catholics.

“ -all the rites and rituals that are superficial “ Every religion, and even secular organizations, have many rites and rituals (though they may not call them by that name) – certain ways of doing things and forms of words which are used over and over in similar situations. There’s nothing wrong with that. Catholic rites and rituals IN THEMSELVES may be superficial, but they are they to convey to us an outward visible and audible sign of a deeper reality which cannot be expressed in words and actions – God granting us His saving grace, gained by His Passion, Death and Resurrection, through the Sacraments which He instituted in His Church.

“-all the money that goes to the Vatican”

Yeah I always get a laugh when this old chestnut is dragged out. Considering that it runs an organization of 1.1 billion people, the budget of the Vatican is minuscule – less than the budget of, say, an average size university. The second largest organization in the world is I believe, the American Blue Cross – why don’t you check out how big their budget is and compare? And the Vatican’s money is spent entirely in the service of God, spreading the gospel and works of charity, taking from the rich and giving to the poor. There is not one cent of profit left over.

“all the pretty robes and unneccessary superfluous objects the Church blings around”

What? You think that only secular “gods” should be honored with our best and most beautiful things, and that God should be content with whatever cheap and nasty rubbish we throw together?

“ -I see so many Catholics that are hypocrites, twisted, and just happy to choose what they like out of the religion”

Yes, so do I, I’m sad to say. But the fact that some Catholics choose ignore some of the Church's teachings certainly doesn't mean that the teachings themselves are wrong! And there are many Catholics who DO conscientously try to obey the Church’s teachings to love God and their fellow man. Often we fail in larger or smaller ways. We’re not perfect. But we’re trying to be perfect, with God’s help.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), March 01, 2005.

-because of the unnatural constraints that the Church places on her followers

[the celibate maybe?]-sdqa

-the way Catholics pretend they love everybody, but are fiercely judgemental of non-Catholics

[depends from person to person]-sdqa

-all the rites and rituals that are superficial -all the money that goes to the Vatican and all the pretty robes and unneccessary superfluous objects the Church blings around

[yeah i don't like this either...]-sdqa

-I see so many Catholics that are hypocrites, twisted, and just happy to choose what they like out of the religion

[somewhat correct...]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 02, 2005.

Steve, in the past, the majority of your posts have made me angry (either because they have contained doctrinal errors, have insulted friends of mine, or have professed foolish political ideas).

However, I have to be fair and give credit where credit is due. Your responses to Anna's points were excellent. Keep up the good work.

Too bad that "gal" seems too immature or sick for anyone to help her other than by prayer. If just one person makes a strongly negative comment that rubs her the wrong way, she not only unjustly damns our beliefs but also all the rest of us (who never said "boo" to her).

-- (coriolanus@lordstown.com), March 02, 2005.

Haha! Listen to sdqa:

''--because of the unnatural constraints that the Church places on her followers [the celibate maybe?] --'' ----->>>> For your information, Jesus Christ the Son of God is celibate. If the Son of God chose celibacy, how can it be unnatural, or a constraint? Or are Catholics all crazy for practicing self-denial? God rewards our self-denial and our sacrifices. God will reward your sins -- with everlasting fire; because you wouldn't offer Him a damn thing in your life!

sdqa: ''-the way Catholics pretend they love everybody, but are fiercely judgemental of non-Catholics [depends from person to person]'' --------->>>> A good Catholic is fiercely judgmental about right and wrong; Good and Evil. Not about you personally.

sdqa ''--all the rites and rituals are superficial, -all the money that goes to the Vatican and all the pretty robes and unneccessary superfluous objects [yeah i don't like this either...]'' -------->>>> If we like it, and God likes it, what's it matter if sdqa doesn't likes it?

Rite and ritual are NOT ''superficial.'' To GOD they are HOLY. To us they are love, expressed with greater significance than love for this world. In Egypt they built huge pyramids to show love for a sinful man. They covered his body with gold. Today we pay hundreds of dollars for a card with some baseball player's picture on it. We dance like crazy to stupid music, etc., ----THAT'S SUPERFICIAL. That will gain us nothing; we lose, we don't win.

Every offering we make in God's honor, every sacrifice and all the ceremony-- enriches us in this life and forever in the next life. --So, it can't be so superficial. At least not to a thinking man. (I don't know about you.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 02, 2005.

"''--because of the unnatural constraints that the Church places on her followers [the celibate maybe?] --'' ----->>>> For your information, Jesus Christ the Son of God is celibate. If the Son of God chose celibacy, how can it be unnatural, or a constraint? Or are Catholics all crazy for practicing self-denial? God rewards our self-denial and our sacrifices. God will reward your sins -- with everlasting fire; because you wouldn't offer Him a damn thing in your life!"

[where is it mentioned in the bible that jesus chose for celibacy?]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 02, 2005.

It's ''mentioned'' everywhere; because He never married. If He had married, why would He hide it? The Church would know, because the apostles would have told us. If we knew Jesus had a wife, we would HONOR her to this day. We love marriage; we have no reason to INVENT celibacy. However, Christ stayed a celibate MAN. --- >Single; and we know it.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 02, 2005.

"It's ''mentioned'' everywhere; because He never married. If He had married, why would He hide it? The Church would know, because the apostles would have told us. If we knew Jesus had a wife, we would HONOR her to this day. We love marriage; we have no reason to INVENT celibacy. However, Christ stayed a celibate MAN"

[not everything about jesus is mentioned in the gospels,maybe he had a wife before he started preaching and later divorced or something like that...and it doesn't mean if he never had a wife that he never had a girlfried]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 02, 2005.

1: Jesus preached agaisnt divorve, makign it hihgly unlikely he was himself divorced...

2: Since Christ was sinless, its even more unliekly he divorced.

3: if he had a Girlfriend, he woidl not have been an ancient palistinian man, since the ocncept o datign didnt exist.

4: even if he had a girlfriend int eh conentional way, he didnt have sex with her, sicn ehe likewise called fornicaiton a sin, and he himself didnt sin...

So that elaves us wiht the optiosn below.

1: either he marreid and had sex with his wife.

2: he did nto marry and died a virgin.

Those are the only two options.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 02, 2005.

damn! this makes his death even more horrible i guess...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 02, 2005.

poor guy

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 02, 2005.

Only if sex is all their is to life. Not everyone is so absorbed with it...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 02, 2005.

Gee, Coriolanus, thank you….. I think. Sorry I inadvertently made you angry. No doubt many people think that all those whose political ideas differ from their own are “foolish”. But unlike many here I have always tried to keep my comments politically neutral, so I can’t think what I said that made you so angry. Granted I have been sometimes patronizing or sarcastic to people who had said silly things, but I don’t think I’ve been deliberately insulting, except perhaps to a couple of trolls who tried to take over this site. I certainly don’t recall making any “doctrinal errors” (though even if I did I can’t understand why that would make you angry). Not trying to claim I’m perfect, I know I make mistakes, but there must be something else making you angry.

Well I guess we are to assume that “unnatural constraints the Church places on people” was supposed to mean celibacy. But the Church does NOT demand that anyone be celibate. In fact it strongly insists that celibacy must undertaken only as a totally free individual choice. It forbids anyone from taking a final vow of celibacy until after the age of 25. And it is widely acknowledged that the (male at least) sex drive is at its highest in the late teens and early twenties, so a man definitely knows by the age of 25 whether he wants to be celibate, and it becomes easier as he gets older.

And celibacy is NOT at all “unnatural”. It is only the marketing of sex as a ubiquitous consumer item in the last 40 years that makes celibacy appear odd to many people today.

But it is trendy today among many in Hollywood etc to support the independence of Tibet (with which I agree btw). But before Tibet was invaded by the Chinese Communists, ONE-THIRD of the adult population were celibate Buddhist monks and nuns. Celibacy was VERY “normal” there.

Granted, only a minority are called to be celibate. Like anything worthwhile, it is difficult, and we need God’s help to achieve it. But there is nothing super-human about it. Young singles like (I assume) sdqa tend to think that marriage is a license to have intercourse whenever you feel like it. It’s not, and to achieve a successful marriage is if anything MORE difficult than to successfully live out a vow of celibacy.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), March 03, 2005.

celibacy is unnatural,sex is a normal,natural human urge...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 03, 2005.

Both are natural. All Human urges are naturlaly cntroled for appropriate use. otherwise we overeat, oversleep, ect...

Oen doesnt need to have sex, and plenty of peole are happy wohtput it.

Sex is also so powerful a constraint is natural to put on it, so qwith a signle regular partner whom you ae ocmmited to makes mroe sence, especallu sicne studies shwo the most happy and prodictive peopel are those in stable marriages...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 03, 2005.

but sex is a good thing if it is being used in the correct way...

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 03, 2005.

Yes, that is what the Catholic Church teaches.

"The correct way" is in marriage without any use of contraceptives.

If you think the "correct way" is having "safe sex" before marriage, you are mistaken.

Tim Kirschenheiter

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), March 03, 2005.

Yes, that is what the Catholic Church teaches.

[my life isn't based on what the catholic church teaches...i think for myself]-sdqa

"The correct way" is in marriage without any use of contraceptives.

If you think the "correct way" is having "safe sex" before marriage, you are mistaken.

[this is not a part of my ideology...i said it already,i think for myself

there is nothing wrong with contraceptives...prove me wrong

and what's the purpose of not having sex with someone before you are married?(we're not all sluts if you didn't know...)

prove me that EVERY form of fornication is wrong... and please don't answer me 'because the church teaches so'...give me facts which indicate that it causes direct harm to the individuals commiting the act...]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 03, 2005.

this is more of another topic rather than a response....my best friend is catholic same with his whole family. his mom is the most catholic person i have ever met. she has ten kids all named after the bible. i met my friend over five years ago. he has been with his girlfriend for three years now. they are not married yet they have sex. she will stay over with him all of the time or he will stay with her. his parents called him not catholic because he is planning on going on spring break down to gatlinburg with me and my girlfriend, yet unless he does everything perfect his parents always bitch. he called me last night thinking of canceling the trip cause he is trying to please his parents and make things better with his relationship. it makes me sick that his oldest brother has a drinking problem drunk everynight, drinks and drives, but his parents never say anything to him but my friend goes on a springbreak trip and all of the sudden he is not cathloic and doesn't make moral decisions but the real kicker is his parents blame me and his girlfriend for everything, it was always my fault that their son drank my fault he moved out, if catholics are honor thy neighbor and all of this other crap they why don't they ever tell their kid that they are proud of him for getting ready to graduate college and support him self and everything else he does that is great....but no they call him not catholic for going on spring break.....this is why i am not catholic.

-- jimmy (rocks546@yahoo.com), March 14, 2005.

Sounds like your friend's religion is really not his own. Otherwise-- he wouldn't be sleeping with his girlfriend. Never mind Spring break.

Have you ever asked your friend if he even believes? Maybe that's the problem. Maybe he isn't a true believer.

-- (anon@anon.com), March 14, 2005.

It's obvious that he's compromised any faith he has to live in sin.

That means his sin and only his sin drive him away from his faith. Those 'spring breaks'' are notorous for being ''Sin Breaks'' and everybody knows it. Decent kids ought to stay away from spiritual decay of that kind.

He may well be a believer who comes back to God eventually in repentence. It certaily happened to men in the scriptures. Many were at heart believers.

This man's parents are true believers. They are reprimanding the sin, not the man. He is also disgracing their HOME, which makes it all personally disappointing. But they're doing the only thing they know how.

The other son is a sinner, but so far hasn't disgraced his own parents, who are faithful to God. But they'll call him to repentence as well.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 14, 2005.

That means his sin and only his sin drive him away from his faith.

Eugene , can you explain this , plz ??

Thx in advance

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), March 14, 2005.

The fact has always been, there are believers; who when the hour of death arrives, know they have to come before God and be judged. They've always believed it, but put it out of their mind because something in this world was more important for the moment. It doesn't mean they never believed.

King David sinned grievously; and knew he was in sin. Although he was a true believer, and repented when God confronted him. He came to his senses and asked forgiveness.

The sin and its attraction carried him off course, in his pilgrimage of life. It happens to everybody sometime. We are weak. But we know it's useless to say God won't know, or care. We truly believe and that's why we come to repentence. I can speak because I'm a sinner. I always knew God came to save me; yet I didn't follow Him. I wasn't ready to give up my sin.

Saint Augustine, the doctor of the Church, lived an immoral life as a young man. He knew God loved him, and he Loved God. He was living with a concubine who gave him a son. He confesses that in his love for God he would pray: ''God, make me pure! But, --Not yet.'' There are many Catholics like that. Many MORE non-Catholics, who really DO NOT believe, they just do their own will. God has to believe in THEM. Same thing with a non-believer I know.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 14, 2005.