Can someone explain the following...

Why is it that the Holy Spirit is not seen present in the Catholic Church gatherings, mass, etc. You can see this in other religions such as Christian - Pentecostal and other scripture focused religions. People speaking in tongues, people re-joicing and praising God. Is GOD's prescence not there with the Catholic Church?? I'd like to get people's perspectives on this.

John

-- John (Anonymous@who.com), March 03, 2005

Answers

I'm not sure what you mean, so can you Explain?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 03, 2005.

If you have ever seen a person speaking in tongues and glorifying God, then you'll know what I mean.

-- John (Anonymous@who.com), March 03, 2005.

f you mean babbling and callin it praise even though no oen can undertsand a word of it then I disagree. its a Psychosemantic trick brought on by Their own desire for a "Goft of the spirit" and entheusiams.

This doesnt mean they are lying or anyhting, just that its of Human origin.

Bibliclaly Speakign in Tounes was about speakign forgin languages so others coul learnt he Gospel, so it codl spread more swiftly...

Not abotu geting into a Vhurc of 100% english Speakers to proclaim loud noises thatmake no sence ot anyone, including the speaker...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 03, 2005.

John,

The Holy Spirit is present everyone, so He is indeed present in Catholic gatherings. In fact, the Catholic Church has an estimated 60-90 million Spirit-Filled members, probably the largest contingency of Spirit-Filled believers under one roof - so to speak. Also, the Lord is present in the reading of the Word and in the Eucharist in every service - that is a fact. That Catholic believers in most services are not as expressive in the love for the Lord or in their worship as Pentecostal faiths is one of the reasons I've been here on this forum for the past 6 years, to encourage our Catholic brothers and sisters into a deeper, Spirit-Filled walk.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 03, 2005.

That 1st sentence should have been, the Holy Spirit is present everywhere.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 03, 2005.

"Why is it that the Holy Spirit is not seen present in the Catholic Church" Not seen by yourself you mean. You may choose not to see the Spirit, but He is there in the Catholic Church, and to a greater extent than in any other religion. Why don't you "focus" on the Scriptures where God GUARANTEES that the Holy Spirit WILL remain present forever in the Catholic Church? "People's perspectives" count for nothing. Try God's way of thinking, not Man's way. The Spirit IS there, and the Mass is THE most eloquent praise of God. We don't need an impressive show of meaningless babbling, shouting, clapping, and throwing our arms about to prove His presence to human observers. You think we don't have enough impressive ritual for your taste? Why don't you get together with the other post-er the other day who complained that the Catholic Church has TOO MUCH ritual?

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), March 03, 2005.

In fact, the Catholic Church has an estimated 60-90 million Spirit-Filled members, probably the largest contingency of Spirit- Filled believers under one roof - so to speak.

the catholic church has more than 1 billion spirit filled members, dave. what you mean to say is that the catholic church has an estimated 60-90 million members who show some manifestion of a highly visible gift of the spirit.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), March 03, 2005.

Very true, Paul. I came back realizing I needed to clarify that PLUS a very important distinction for John. That is to bring focus to something - the Catholic Eucharist represents a Presence of the Lord that is completely missing from Pentecostal and Protestant services. The very Real Presence of Jesus' Body and Blood is in every Mass and that is something that is as needed as the manifest Presence of the Lord via spiritual gifts and worship.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 03, 2005.

Very true, Paul, all baptized Catholics have the Holy Spirit in them, but that is not the same as a "Spirit-Filled" walk in which the power of the Holy Spirit is able to move through believers for healings, prophetic words, miracles and even the very visible tongues. I came back to the thread realizing I needed to clarify that PLUS a very important distinction for John. That is to bring focus to something - the Catholic Eucharist represents a Presence of the Lord that is completely missing from Pentecostal and Protestant services. The very Real Presence of Jesus' Body and Blood is in every Mass and that is something that is as needed as the manifest Presence of the Lord via spiritual gifts and worship.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 03, 2005.

That was weird, I seemed to have posted a version of the message prior to all my edits, and then the final version.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 03, 2005.

I have to agree with Zarove on this. Talking to a Baptist guy I know, he said that speaking in toungues (the gibberish version) is amazingly easy to fake, which he preceded to do.

As for knowing other languages with no training, not THAT is miraculous

Tim Kirschenheiter

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), March 03, 2005.

It's so sad so many people are closed minded to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. I do agree the they are not for eveyone and that not everyone recives. However; the Spirit gives the gifts as HE WILLS not as we will.

-- Davis (davis242@gmail.com), March 04, 2005.

I'm quoting David's statement

"but that is not the same as a "Spirit-Filled" walk in which the power of the Holy Spirit is able to move through believers for healings, prophetic words, miracles and even the very visible tongues."

This is exactly what I'm referring to. You do not see this type of presence in the Catholic Church. Do you really think that people who rejoice with the holy spirit and praise God are faking things. How could a whole congregation do this? How do you know they lying when all they are doing is good? If the Holy Spirit is what drives people to speak in tongues, perform prophecies, etc., then are you calling God's holy spirit fake?

If you go back to the New Testament when Peter's disciples were touched by the holy spirit and they spoke in tongues....This is exactly what I've seent in other religions, yet it lacks in the Catholic Church? The Holy Spirit and God instructed to spread the Gospel to all believers (Disciples). This another area where Catholics don't perform. It they truly believe in the word of God, why don't they go around spreading the word. I heard the Catholic church wants to change this because they have been criticized on this topic.

John

-- John (Anonymous@who.com), March 04, 2005.

Q: "This is exactly what I'm referring to. You do not see this type of presence in the Catholic Church."

Answer: You do in Charismatic Catholic services, very much. That's what I was trying to tell you. I'm not sure why you're picking on the Catholic Church. The majority of Christians from thousands of denominations do not have charismatic worship or gifts functioning, yet you've targeted the Catholic Church, which actually has more people worshipping charismatic style than the Assemblies of God (the largest charismatic denomination) has members). The Catholic Church should be commended for facilitating the freedom to express charismatic worship, most denominations do not.

Q: "If you go back to the New Testament when Peter's disciples were touched by the holy spirit and they spoke in tongues....This is exactly what I've seent in other religions, yet it lacks in the Catholic Church?"

Answer: Like I said, 60-90 million Catholics have experienced exactly that, name me one other denomination that has that many Spirit-Filled believers.

Q: "The Holy Spirit and God instructed to spread the Gospel to all believers (Disciples). This another area where Catholics don't perform.

Answet: There are over 1 billion Catholics in the world, just how did that happen if they weren't into spreading the gospel???

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 04, 2005.

No one said that the Holy Spirit was fake. That was an illogical inference you made in an attempt to debase the other side of the argument.

What was said was...

It is possible that there are people without the gift who will fake it.

Maybe people long so much to speak in tongues they will subconciously convince themselves they have the gift. This was Zarove's point. These cases are of human origin, as Zarove noted.

"It they truly believe in the word of God, why don't they go around spreading the word."

Catholics often are preoccupied with defending the faith, which is frequently necessary. This defending of the faith spreads the true Gospel message.

Isn't it sad that intra-Christian disputes limit the spreading power of the Gospel?

Could you imagine the teaching and spreading power of the Church if there were no other denominations? If we were all still one denomination?

Tim Kirschenheiter

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), March 04, 2005.

"For Catholics considering becoming charismatic, it is imperative to remember that we live in an era in which many will be deceived, and that in order to reach heaven, there's no need for emotional euphoria. Who among us deserves such a divine experience in the first place! The Church already has the Little Way, the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises and Introduction to the Devout Life, to name a few. With these in their proper application, plus the Holy Sacraments, one cannot miss the goal of eternal life. Far too many fail to realize that Christian perfection involves suffering and not purely sensational phenomena or blissful ecstasy. The saints got by just fine without Tuesday evening prayer meetings! The great Popes never pushed any powers and gifts of the Holy Spirit upon the faithful. Most of all, Christ nor His Virgin Mother never ordered, encouraged nor insinuated that we call down the Holy Ghost at our whim. As Dr. William Marra would say, "God has given us seven sacraments, not eight!"" Written by Joseph Martinez

-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), March 04, 2005.

Nick, not only is that a theologically ignorant statement, it's also false humility and worst of all, it's denigrating the work of the Holy Spirit into some sort of unnecessary feeling or experience.

If that's what you truly believe, then I feel sorry for you. Think about it. You're saying we don't need the gifts that God has chosen to give us to empower us for our own walks in Christ and to reach others for the Gospel. That's the purpose of the gifts of the Spirit. Gifts of healing to make people well. Gifts of miracles to draw people to Jesus. Gifts of prophecy to encourage and srengthen the Church. They were embraced and used by Apostles and saints throughout the history of the Church, but to you, they are just "feelings" and completely unnecessary and undesireable, despite St. Paul's instruction to "earnestly seek the greater gifts".

Remember, if you reject the gift, you're also rejecting the Giver of the gifts.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 05, 2005.

the warning against possible deception of gifts is quite valid, dave... surely you cannot believe that EVERY person who claims to have gifts would definately have them. thats what the televangelist market is built on.

Further, the quote warns against an elitism that might prey on people who really DO recieve gifts of the Spirit. that is, it IS important to remember that we are all possessed of gifts from God though some are more or less visible than others. i see nothing wrong with this article quote, it is a wholly valid warning for both those who are gifted with highly visible gifts and those who are not.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), March 05, 2005.

Paul,

Yes, there are those who have faked the gifts in order to feel accepted and there are those who laud giftings over other people in pride, that doesn't mean we reject the gifts because some have abused them.

While the article starts off OK with it's first sentence, it then quickly spirals into a demeaning characterization of the gifts and inaccuracies regarding the Lord's instructions who in fact DID tell his disciples to wait in that upper room for the power of the Holy Spirit to come from Heaven, the Lord's mother among them.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 05, 2005.