I should have asked this question sooner (before the beginning of Lent). Oh well, better late than never.

During Lent, my church empties out the water in our baptismal font and replaces it with gravel and some purple ribbon-like material. No one has ever explained to me whether or not I should touch the gravel and then bless myself as I enter and exit the church. When I observe other people, a few of them bless themselves after touching the gravel; however, most of them just avoid any contact with the font during Lent while the water is gone. What is the respectful thing to do when I can't bless myself with the water?

-- Patience (nospam@idelete.it), March 14, 2005

Answers

Please bump for responses. Thanks.

-- Patience (nospam@idelete.it), March 14, 2005.

In the Baptismal Font, or the Holy Water Font at the entrance to the Church?

Either way it is a liturgical abuse and goes againt the Church's Teaching surrounding the lenten season - points to, reminds of, etc. BAPTISM. The water can and is to be removed from the fonts for one day and one day only - Good Friday.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), March 14, 2005.

Fr. Paul,

Can you point me to the guideline that notes that, because i had been led to believe that emptying the font of holy water was not condemned during the lenten season by the priests at our campus, although they tend to be decidedly liberal priests here. that would be an interesting thing to show our director of campus ministry.

i make, however, no comment as to the REPLACEMENT of the water with another substance except to say that 1) if the font does not have holy water in it, you should not be using it to bless yourself and 2) that SOUNDS like an illicit practice because to my understanding the only thing allowed is the REMOVAL of water and not the addition of something else.

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), March 14, 2005.

I have found an excellent site that covers this subject. I encourage all to visit it. The content is clear and not voluminous.

A questioner quotes a goofy church bulletin notice about the coming disappearance of holy water from fonts. Then an answerer produces a 2000 letter from the Holy See, giving an authoritative ruling against this practice ("the removing of Holy Water from the fonts during the season of Lent is not permitted") with reasons therefor.

Two noteworthy points within the Vatican letter:
(1) the writer uses a Latin phrase ("praeter legem") that means "outside, or beyond, the law"
(2) the writer says (contrary to what was stated earlier in this thread) that fonts should be without water only on "those days on which the Eucharist is not celebrated (i.e., Good Friday and Holy Saturday)" -- i.e., on two days, not on "one day only."

-- F&T (FranTony@norpol.com), March 14, 2005.

Sorry. Forgot to give you a link to http://www.catholicdo ors.com/faq/qu75.htm.

-- F&T (FranTony@norpol.com), March 14, 2005.

F&T,

On Holy Saturday the Holy Water is replaced in the font at or near the end of the Vigil; therefore, Good Friday is the only FULL day the fonts are empty. The only exception would be if the Easter Vigil took place after midnight; therefore having two FULL days with the fonts empty. Also, the Church in her liturgies still (somewhat) follows the Jewish practice of 'sunset begins a new day' - although it is Saturday night, it is also Easter Sunday (thus we celebrate the Resurrection).

Trust me, I know what I am talking about.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), March 14, 2005.

It's not a matter of lack of "trust" on my part, Father. Rather, it is a matter of lack of precision (in your initial post) and lack of humility, honesty, and charity (in your second post).

In your first post, you were incorrect, stating, "The water can and is to be removed from the fonts for one day and one day only - Good Friday." It was necessary for me to correct this, because you did not mention Holy Saturday in the least.

At this point, you had two choices: (1) avoid posting again, or (2) to post again and humbly apologize, admitting that you had been wrong and expressing gratitude that God had provided someone to the forum to set the record straight! Did you do either of those? No. Instead, you tried to save face and got dishonest in the process.

In your second post, you tried at first to make it seem as though I should not have corrected you, and then later you ended up contradicting yourself.

FORCED TO BREAK UP MESSAGE

-- F&T (FranTony@norpol.com), March 14, 2005.

You stated, "Good Friday is the only FULL day the fonts are empty. The only exception would be if the Easter Vigil took place after midnight; therefore having two FULL days with the fonts empty."
First: You have no right to bring up a question of "full or partial" days to rebut me, since you said nothing about "full or partial" days in your first message. Had you said, "Good Friday is usually the only 24-hour day during which there is no water in the fonts," I would not have said that you were incorrect. I would have merely added some clarifying information about Holy Saturday.
Second: You must have read the Vatican comment with your eyes closed, since it clearly refers to "days" (plural), specifically mentioning "Good Friday and Holy Saturday."
Third (and the crowning touch): You yourself revealed something that I already knew, but didn't mention -- i.e., the "anticipated" beginning of a Sunday on a Saturday evening (a la Judaism). Thus, Holy Saturday ends with the start of the Easter Vigil celebration (even pre-midnight), before which the "full" day called Holy Saturday is spent without water in the fonts.

Please realize, Father, that you need to back off when you have made a mistake, lest you be perceived as an overbearing and haughty. And don't make any more clericalistic, patronizing statements, like, "Trust me. I know what I am talking about." With that cute turn of phrase, you imply to me and others, "You guys don't know what you are talking about." You will learn, Father, that some people at Internet forums know as much as, and sometimes more than, you do.

-- F&T (FranTony@norpol.com), March 14, 2005.

"lack of humility, honesty, and charity (in your second post"

How so? On all three charges.

The only error I made in my first post was to assume that all Latin Easter Vigils take place before midnight Holy Saturday. I would be very surprised if they did not.

And a fourth charge: "dishonest" - How so?

I admit I at times post sloppily; a vice I have of often assuming that others know what I mean. Anyway, I should have been clear to say that when I say "FULL day" I mean midnight to midnight. The point about the Church's practice (sort of, but not strictly) following the Jewish tradition of sunset as a new day does confuse things. But don't accuse me of dishonesty, pride or anything else as you simply have not enough evidence to do so. Trust me, when I screw up and see it, I admit it.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), March 15, 2005.

Part Deux:

"With that cute turn of phrase, you imply to me and others, "You guys don't know what you are talking about.""

No, it means you don't know what I am talking about. ;)

The Church in Her instructions recognise the Easter Vigil before midnight as taking place on Saturday night; as She states She wants there to be no confusion between it and other Saturday night Masses. The Office of readings for Holy Saturday cannot be anticipated on Friday evening/night but must be said at its proper time of Saturday morning (why is that?), and evening prayer for Holy Saturday is to be said at a convenient time in the evening of Saturday, and it is not called Evening Prayer I of Easter Sunday nor is Evening Prayer for Easter Sunday called Evening Prayer II. (Now let's not split any hairs over "evening" vs "night" (in terms of times of day) they are interchangeable up to a point; what point? Who knows?).

I never said 'Trust me I know THAT I am being clear.' ;)

Perhaps the most serious problem with internet forums is that people think they know a poster's intent, disposition, etc. when there is not enough to give a clear indication of what that is. I should know, I am guilty of it enough myself.

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), March 15, 2005.

Fr. Paul,

Let me answer your question. At my church, we only have *one* font. It is huge, has a stairway to the bottom, and is used for immersion and non-immersion baptisms. This font is located immediately outside the lobby and inside the actual church area where people sit for mass. We do not have any other standard-style holy water fonts hanging on the walls. Therefore, when this font is emptied of its holy water, there *is* no holy water available in the church.

-- Patience (nospam@idelete.it), March 15, 2005.

"Trust me. I know what I am talking about."

I don't trust you(with this) Father. You have been shown you "Don't know what you are talking about".

Swallow that pride and admit you are wrong. We want to help you learn sir, not pass on incorrect information to your flock.

-- Elpoona (Elp339385922@yahoo.net), March 15, 2005.

At my church we have a Baptismal Font that is only filled up once a year, the Easter Vigil! It has always been empty except on this one day for baptisms at the Vigil. The rest of the year they do baptisms in a stand that is set out with a large crystal bowl. During different seasons they fill the baptismal font with different things. Advent - hibiscus plants, Lent - Clay Pots, Easter - Orchids, Ordinary time - other plants.

After reading this thread I'm realizing that maybe this is wrong. How should I approach my pastor? Usually he is a stickler for doing things the right way, I can't imagine that he is consciously going against the rules?

Anyway, waddya guys think?

-- brian (brian@brian.com), March 15, 2005.

F&T, and Elpoona to some extent, you have shown the pride and patronizing attitude which you accuse Fr Paul of. You are also guilty of rudeness inappropriate when addressing a priest. Regardless of your opinions on the rights and wrongs of his statements, you owe him the respect due to his priestly office.

Brian, yes it seems your priest has erred. You should refer him to the Vatican document referenced above.

Patience, I believe that it is a requirement that there be holy water fonts at every entrance to a church.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), March 15, 2005.