I am still confused... my protestant friends believe in faith alone for salvation. I try to explain the concept of faith and works, but I must not be doing a good job. They think that I don't believe that Jesus' death on the cross was sufficient to forgive ALL of our sins. It is written a number of times in the Bible. I am growing shaky on what is actually necessary to get to heaven.

-- AB (lifey888@hotmail.com), March 14, 2005

Answers

I WOuld suggest that tyoy show your firend James chapter 2, verse 24.

oDDLY, USIGN THE niv is best in this case as it flatly says "Faith alone" . It refutes the idea clealry...

after this, remind him that Paul, the one whose pasage is usually taken out of context to prive "Faith alone" is himself constantly reminding people in scripture to "Avoid fornication, drunkeneess, and Abuse."

Paul didnt beleive in Faith alone either, as he said to his charges int he variosu chruhces of Greece that they needed to remain ever vigelant, to acid sin, and to abandon one who, though proffessijg the faith, refised to give up his sins.

The works of Paul wodl be better to read I think.

I wll post more later.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 14, 2005.

I have heard that James is talking about a different kind of faith in that passage. Does this make a difference?

-- AB (lifey888@hotmail.com), March 14, 2005.

Only to apologists.

Paul likewaise can be sad to be talkign of a differnt kidn of faith,a nd indeed, you woidl be om the high gorund.

remind them that Oaul the aposlte constantly told them over and over to "Cease in thy sins".

Check entire Chapters in rimans, 1 and 2 corinthians, and Galartions. You cant read chapter 16 or ormans and get "Faith alone."

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 14, 2005.

Ask them to provide you with Jesus Christ's own words when coming up with their theories about how a soul is to find justification, and thus persevere to the end and achieve salvation.

You won't find sola scritura or sola fide from Jesus' words or actions, so I don't think Paul or Peter or anyone else meant what the Protestants claim they meant.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), March 14, 2005.

I meant 12th chapter of romans, not 16th, sorry.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 14, 2005.

AB

i wonder of this is terminology getting on the way.

first of all, you might use these 2 words to describe Catholicism. faith is the root of justification. and through our faith we are driven to the Sacraments, each of which increases or restores saving grace. if you had no faith, you'd never ask for baptism of absolution. or if you ask half-heartedly, the Sacrament is not administered. similarly, good works co-operating with faith increase our grace.

now, looked at in this rather crude way, you'll see that the difference might be the Sacraments, those corporeal acts, visible signs, with ahidden sanctity.

i can't imagine that there are many sola fideists that would serioulsly argue that, provided you have faith, you can do anything you want. no, i'd imagine that such faith is a hollow faith, the litmus test being the absence of good works and/or the absence of perfect contrition of attrition.

...and underneath all of this, the grace of God, that presumably the sola fideists also accept. that gift we never could earn. the source of all our good deeds. the basis upon which we freely assent to the receipt of initial justifying saving grace.

perhaps you could talk to your buddy about the Sacraments -- or perhaps i'm talking rot.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 15, 2005.

Jesus said:

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 15, 2005.

Hi Faith!

anything in that last post of mine that you woud consider incorrect - - as a protestant ex-Catholic?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 15, 2005.

John 6:35-40

Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 15, 2005.

Faith

let's spend the next year hurling Scripture at each other?!?!

the Bible is a narrative, not a legal code.

what do you think? is sola fide not really about the necessity of faith, but the necessity of the Sacraments?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 15, 2005.

Hi Ian.,

I believe that works are a sign of a saving faith in Christ. Once we are saved, or delivered from the power of sin--we are strengthened in Him, and His desires become our passions. This means we will act.

If there are no fruits--or good works, then our faith is dead, or not real--just as James pointed out.

To some people it seems like James and Paul are at odds with their take on this message. But Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. I believe James and Paul are saying the very same thing. We are not saved by works, so that no one can boast--but a truly saved person will do the works God has planned for us to do.

Does that answer your question? Some of your post speaks in Catholic language and I am not sure exactly..but yes--faith-alone advocates to not think we can lazy around and do nothing--or worse, keep on deliberately sinning because we believe we are saved..

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 15, 2005.

sort of my point, Faith.

boils down to the Sacraments.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 15, 2005.

Gotta run for now, but as far as I can see--Jesus instituted only two sacraments. Communion and baptism.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 15, 2005.

Unfortunately "as far as you can see" contradicts the universal teaching of Christianity for most of its 2,000 year history. But one cannot expect more from mere personal interpretation of Scripture.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 15, 2005.